Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Well...I am way too lazy to answer all the questions again, for the 9th time...so anyways, i voted all the poll choices (by the way Jess, you forgot to include a pygmy puff )

anyways, Voldemort was a fairly smart guy (I use the term fairly loosely) after he went into power and he would probably understand that sometimes, muggleborns would be useful, but I bet most of the time they were people he knew he couldn't torture out information and decided to try to offer them power (kind of like wormtail i suppose...). That was probably what was going on with Lily. Most Order members had no chance of ever getting into the Death Eaters, but because Snape was someone Lily already knew and liked, there was a small chance Snape could get Lily to tell him valuable information. He probably never took Snape seriously, but he could try.

Also, about half bloods in slytherin. My take on it is that the pure bloods, like the Malfoys and the Blacks, would be in a..."higher social class" and half bloods would be lower. For a half blood to get "popular" or gain "power", they would have to prove themselves. The same thing happens in normal schools, kind of, but based on beauty or athleticism or grades and that kind of thing and i think it would apply to Slytherin as wel

[wickedwickedboy]

Um...I doubt any pureblood Death Eater recognized the name "Riddle" or considered it among those of high repute in their circles (like the Malfoys/Blacks, etc.) Thereby, I feel it was understood that halfbloods were not looked down upon (except when it came to super personal and intimate joinings like marriage that might destroy the bloodline). There is simply no canon evidence to show us otherwise.

I find it highly unfair to condemn the Slytherins for things that were not shown in canon. They definitely had some flaws and evil tendencies, but that does not mean we can place every evil and flaw known to mankind on its members. Even the blood purist members were shown to make allowances (Draco friends with Blaise who rejected Voldemort; his willingness to befriend Harry). And some of its members were not even characteristic blood purists (Slughorn, P. Black, Andromeda, Blaise, etc.)

To me it is stretching the canon to assume that all Slytherin blood purists disdained half bloods outside of everything but marriage and the like. It is not stated in canon and indeed the opposite is shown as I have pointed out. My Slytherins have enough flaws, they really don't need more arbitrarily dumped upon them. . Suggested possibilities that are shown not to be consistent with canon I think can be eliminated.

Snape likely felt inferior, but I do not think the Slytherins in his gang made him feel that way. That is, unless he had a desire to marry into one of their families - and since he had his eyes set on a muggleborn girl, I doubt he was itching to marry into a pureblood dynasty.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

Also, about half bloods in slytherin. My take on it is that the pure bloods, like the Malfoys and the Blacks, would be in a..."higher social class" and half bloods would be lower. For a half blood to get "popular" or gain "power", they would have to prove themselves. The same thing happens in normal schools, kind of, but based on beauty or athleticism or grades and that kind of thing and i think it would apply to Slytherin as wel

I think this is a good idea. If he had to fight to gain their companionship to begin with, that could have been one of the reasons for Severus' desire to remain on good terms with Avery and Mulciber.

[DeathlyH]

I don't know how much it would have mattered that Snape was a half-blood Death Eater. He could easily just lie about it, like Voldemort had, and if people believed him he would be all set. It doesn't seem like he had much trouble fitting in amongst the Death Eater crowd at school (even though we don't see him among there much). I think that if he told Voldemort and the others he was a pureblood, and they bought it, he would be fine. No one would know the truth since he was a good Occlumens.

[arithmancer]

The small number of wizarding families, suggests to me Snape could not hope to get away with the lie. Unless there happen to be Pureblood Snapes we never heard of, a Bella would know he's not "her kind".

At best, he could hide that his father was a Muggle. (And I think he may have). That he had "Muggle blood" on his father's side of the family would have been apparent.

[wickedwickedboy]

I am not sure what the point is . Even if he was given a hard time in his house, then what would that mean? He obviously overcame their prejudice if it existed because he hung with the gang and Mulciber and Avery were his particular friends. It is likely Snape put everyone's mind at ease at once by sharing his dark magic curses with them, expressing his fascination with the dark arts and joining them in spouting hate venom against Muggles as he had done against Petunia in DH-TPT.

Still, there is no canon that 1/2 bloods had a problem in Slytherin house...

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I am not sure what the point is . Even if he was given a hard time in his house, then what would that mean? He obviously overcame their prejudice if it existed because he hung with the gang and Mulciber and Avery were his particular friends. It is likely Snape put everyone's mind at ease at once by sharing his dark magic curses with them, expressing his fascination with the dark arts and joining them in spouting hate venom against Muggles as he had done against Petunia in DH-TPT.

Still, there is no canon that 1/2 bloods had a problem in Slytherin house...

He could have just said his father was foreign, There were no Delacour's till Fleur showed up. Was she half-blood?

[Yoana]

I doubt they have a regsiter somewhere with all the pureblood family names in Britain. I don't think a name can definitely prove someone's blood status. However, the fact that Snape's dad was 100% Muggle wouldn't have stayed secret for long if heritage and blood status were as big a deal at the time as it seems to me.

[wickedwickedboy]

So Snape believed it was possible he'd become impressive and powerful as a DE, even though he was up against all of these people who looked down on him and thought him inferior because...?

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

So Snape believed it was possible he'd become impressive and powerful as a DE, even though he was up against all of these people who looked down on him and thought him inferior because...?

Um, my sole point was that it was probably known that he was half-blood. I didn't say anything about the consequences of it.

[ComicBookWorm]

There's the book Nature's Nobility. I think it is a register of the pureblood families.

[Lucretia]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

So Snape believed it was possible he'd become impressive and powerful as a DE, even though he was up against all of these people who looked down on him and thought him inferior because...?

He didn't come from a rich, privileged, pureblood family like the Malfoys and Blacks. I bet a lot of the Slytherins knew each other before Hogwarts because of their families. And if they didn't, they could've said something like, "Oh, you're a Malfoy," and immediately known they were making friends with the "right" people.

So, I'm not saying they definitely persecuted Snape. But he at least would've had to do more to be noticed by them. And he probably proved himself to them pretty early on. Still, prior to that, there would at least be a feeling that he wasn't truly "one of them," and I think there's a chance they may have let him know that it first...however subtle they were about it. He at least would've had to feel left out when they discussed their families and manors and all that...and my main point was that could've led to him feeling somewhat bitter about being a half-blood. Which I think had to do with him calling himself the HBP....As I said, I think he might've meant it kind of bitterly.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

He didn't come from a rich, privileged, pureblood family like the Malfoys and Blacks. I bet a lot of the Slytherins knew each other before Hogwarts because of their families. And if they didn't, they could've said something like, "Oh, you're a Malfoy," and immediately known they were making friends with the "right" people.

So, I'm not saying they definitely persecuted Snape. But he at least would've had to do more to be noticed by them. And he probably proved himself to them pretty early on. Still, prior to that, there would at least be a feeling that he wasn't truly "one of them," and I think there's a chance they may have let him know that it first...however subtle they were about it. He at least would've had to feel left out when they discussed their families and manors and all that...and my main point was that could've led to him feeling somewhat bitter about being a half-blood. Which I think had to do with him calling himself the HBP....As I said, I think he might've meant it kind of bitterly.

Do you mean he was putting himself down with the title? Thinking of himself in bitter terms? I would disagree. His statement in HBP came across as proud and boastful: "It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Bood Prince!" He then spoke as if James and Harry were his sujbects: "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

My impression was that Snape was in his element; he truly considered himself someone to be revered and the fact that two inferior beings (i.e. filthy) like Harry and his father would use the spells against him was a great affront to his "princely" personage. I see no other way to interpet that based on the way it was written. To me, Snape was elevating himself in his mind with the term.

This brings us to the next line and another consideration - Harry, in response to Snape calling his father fithy (and him as well by association), responds that Snape should just kill him then, like he'd killed 'him'. Re-reading that just now for this post, I am convinced Harry was speaking of his father. That was also heavily weighing on his mind as he spoke about it in the hospital wing. From Snape's POV; I think Snape understood that Harry referred to his father, but I think he also had some uncertainty, because it could also refer to Dumbledore.

The thing is, in neither act was Harry referring to Snape as a coward, imo; he was referring to the fact that Snape would not fight him like a man, but rather taunted and toyed with him and then disarmed him. Snape had also earlier called his father a coward for presumably always fighting at a disadvantage which was a lie (based on the canon that Snape hexed him at every opportunity in 7th, and if all of those opportunities included Snape being at a disadvantage, he could not make the claim of coward as he'd never tested the theory). But to Harry, not fighting was cowardly and indeed Snape finally striking Harry after disarming him was as cowardly behavior as any described by him, imo. So Harry was correct in that - but mistaken as to why Snape wouldn't fight; but Harry was also correct about his parents because Snape didn't kill them either, but colluded to have another do it; and finally Dumbledore, who from Harry's point of view, had been helpless - but he was mistaken about that.

Snape knew the truth of all of the above though, although how much of it he actually recognized at the time is debatable. He knew of course he was striking Harry at a complete disadvantage (disarmed, less skilled, a child), but I don't think he stopped to think of it as cowardly. As the book indicated, he appeared demented, and so I feel he just lost it and his loathing for Harry made the child an ideal whipping post for his pent up emotions and frustration, including the partial truths that Harry had thrown at him.

[Lucretia]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Do you mean he was putting himself down with the title? Thinking of himself in bitter terms? I would disagree. His statement in HBP came across as proud and boastful: "It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Bood Prince!" He then spoke as if James and Harry were his sujbects: "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

My impression was that Snape was in his element; he truly considered himself someone to be revered and the fact that two inferior beings (i.e. filthy) like Harry and his father would use the spells against him was a great affront to his "princely" personage. I see no other way to interpet that based on the way it was written. To me, Snape was elevating himself in his mind with the term.

I think he did have pride when he told Harry he was the HBP...but I don't know how else he would've identified himself to Harry to show the book was his. Also, he knew that Harry respected the HBP as someone "princely" because he invented spells and gave potions tips.

And I guess he did think James should've thought of him that way too...but part of that may have been not that he wanted James to regard him as a prince, but more that James should not have gotten credit for using Levicorpus. Yet he was the one showing off with it in front of a crowd, humiliating its creator.

But I don't know if as a boy when he made the name, Snape meant it with that kind of pride. I think he only would've been proud to be a pureblood on the basis that Voldermort was one too and rose to such power anyway. But clearly he was somewhat out of the loop in Slytherin, and he didn't seem fond of his Muggle father, and he was using the word "Mudblood" (even if it was just to impress his friends)...so I just don't think he was too pleased about being a half-blood. That is why I think he could've been bitter about being the HBP. We don't know how respected they were as a wizarding family, but maybe he thought if his mother hadn't married a Muggle, and he'd been a real Prince, raised by wizards, his life would've been greatly improved (at the least he wouldn't have an abusive Muggle father).

Originally Posted by WWB

Snape knew the truth of all of the above though, although how much of it he actually recognized at the time is debatable. He knew of course he was striking Harry at a complete disadvantage (disarmed, less skilled, a child), but I don't think he stopped to think of it as cowardly. As the book indicated, he appeared demented, and so I feel he just lost it and his loathing for Harry made the child an ideal whipping post for his pent up emotions and frustration, including the partial truths that Harry had thrown at him.

Snape deflects every spell Harry throws at him and only really attacks him once. No matter how frustrated he is with Harry, he mainly fights with words and is not willing to attack a less skilled child. And the reason he sends that hot, whipping light thing at him is partly because he's so enraged at being called coward, but it's also to stop Harry from following him.

[arithmancer]

I agree with you, Lucretia, that there was probably some bitterness in Snape's choice of his nickname. This does not, however, have to mean, as WWB suggests, that Snape considered himself inferior. I think the text shows he recognized in himself (correctly) a level of ability that was above the ordinary. (The description of him talkign to Lily in the Forest, "oddly impressive" and "brimful of confidence in his destiny"). But at the same time, when he got to wchool, he would have realized that to some people, that is not what matters most. To a Bella, his lack of pure blood would be more important. To a Slughorn, that and the poverty of his circumstances would make him less interesting.

I think the nickname expresses a defiant belief in his own worth despite the prevailing views in his House (choosing the titel Prince, also his mother's maiden name), and at the same time incorporates the dark, sarcastic humor we see in him elsewhere as well, by adding "Half-Blood" to that, a descriptor that in the eyes of some fits not so well with the grandeur of "Prince".

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

I think he did have pride when he told Harry he was the HBP...but I don't know how else he would've identified himself to Harry to show the book was his. Also, he knew that Harry respected the HBP as someone "princely" because he invented spells and gave potions tips.

And I guess he did think James should've thought of him that way too...but part of that may have been not that he wanted James to regard him as a prince, but more that James should not have gotten credit for using Levicorpus. Yet he was the one showing off with it in front of a crowd, humiliating its creator.

Everyone was doing it - you couldn't walk 5 feet without someone lifting you up. It is not logical to me that James would get credit for using the same spell everyone else was using so frequently. Snape was angry, he said, because James used it against him (HBP).

This goes back to Snape seeing others that he didn't like or respect as 'inferior'. At Hogwarts, he associated it with Bloodlines also; but as an adult, I feel he may have just associated it with those he did not like or respect and half-breeds like werewolves and vampires which many in society looked down upon in general.

Snape deflects every spell Harry throws at him and only really attacks him once. No matter how frustrated he is with Harry, he mainly fights with words and is not willing to attack a less skilled child. And the reason he sends that hot, whipping light thing at him is partly because he's so enraged at being called coward, but it's also to stop Harry from following him.

Nothing like using a whipping curse when a freezing or binding spell would do... I am afraid I cannot agree with that reasoning.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I agree with you, Lucretia, that there was probably some bitterness in Snape's choice of his nickname. This does not, however, have to mean, as WWB suggests, that Snape considered himself inferior. I think the text shows he recognized in himself (correctly) a level of ability that was above the ordinary. (The description of him talkign to Lily in the Forest, "oddly impressive" and "brimful of confidence in his destiny"). But at the same time, when he got to wchool, he would have realized that to some people, that is not what matters most. To a Bella, his lack of pure blood would be more important. To a Slughorn, that and the poverty of his circumstances would make him less interesting.

I think the nickname expresses a defiant belief in his own worth despite the prevailing views in his House (choosing the titel Prince, also his mother's maiden name), and at the same time incorporates the dark, sarcastic humor we see in him elsewhere as well, by adding "Half-Blood" to that, a descriptor that in the eyes of some fits not so well with the grandeur of "Prince".

Actually I agree with this interpretation. It does smack of Snape's humor. But I think too it expresses that Snape understood what he saw as his 'station' in life and wished for it to be elevated (remember JKR said he wanted to be impressive and powerful?) So the "prince" elevates the Half-Blood to something better than pureblood, something royal (or at least equal). That is why I think he took that particular tone in HBP - it was arrogant and egotistically stated as written, imo, and his subsequent comment indicated that he felt others, like Harry and James, inferior, despite their bloodline (half/pure blood), merely because he loathed them and lacked respect for them, imo.

[RemusLupinFan]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I think the nickname expresses a defiant belief in his own worth despite the prevailing views in his House (choosing the titel Prince, also his mother's maiden name), and at the same time incorporates the dark, sarcastic humor we see in him elsewhere as well, by adding "Half-Blood" to that, a descriptor that in the eyes of some fits not so well with the grandeur of "Prince".

I agree with the idea that the creation of the nickname was intended to increase his own self worth, particularly at a time in his life when he sought acceptance from others. The addition of "half blood" seems to add a kind of irony to the fact that he was in a house that valued the purity of blood which he didn't have.

[DeathlyH]

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan

I agree with the idea that the creation of the nickname was intended to increase his own self worth, particularly at a time in his life when he sought acceptance from others. The addition of "half blood" seems to add a kind of irony to the fact that he was in a house that valued the purity of blood which he didn't have.

I wonder though- did anybody else actually know about the nickname? The Death Eaters wouldn't have liked it, since it showed he was half-blood and they only accept Purebloods, and the Marauders never knew about it because Lupin tells Harry so (HBP Chapter 18). It was probably just a nickname he came up with and called himself.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by DeathlyH

I wonder though- did anybody else actually know about the nickname?

All the evidence seems to me to suggest that it was a private nickname. Perhaps Lily knew it, but certainly it does not seem anyone else would have.

[wickedwickedboy]

It is suprising to me that Snape would have remained boastful and cocksure (my opinion of his behavior in HBP), after having been a murderer and evil doer as a Death Eater and turned from that. I would think he would be a lot more humble overall.