Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[Lucretia]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

It is suprising to me that Snape would have remained boastful and cocksure (my opinion of his behavior in HBP), after having been a murderer and evil doer as a Death Eater and turned from that. I would think he would be a lot more humble overall.

I'm just curious if you could give a few examples of times when you think he was being boastful...or are you referring to him telling Harry "I am the HBP!" and his behavior in that scene?

Personally, I think if it was "boastful," it was maybe because he'd been through so much...having to kill Dumbledore and spying...and everyone still hated him and believed him to be a bad guy because he couldn't reveal the truth. So no one even appreciated his efforts. And killing Dumbledore had to be a pretty big emotional drain (he does worry about how it will damage his soul)...so I think he's just frustrated, because he's done all this, and here Harry is calling him a coward, when actually, he's the one who invented the spells Harry is using and helped him out so much.

So I think he just feels a bit unappreciated...not that I'd expect Harry to appreciate him after he just saw Snape kill Dumbledore (and doesn't consider there could've been a plan...again, I wouldn't expect it from him). But that's my interpretation in Snape's "boastfulness" as you called it in this particular scene.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

It is suprising to me that Snape would have remained boastful and cocksure (my opinion of his behavior in HBP), after having been a murderer and evil doer as a Death Eater and turned from that. I would think he would be a lot more humble overall.

I respectfully disagree with this. I don't think Snape was ever boastful, and not in HBP either.

The whole of 6th year for Snape IMO would have been filled with thoughts of murdering Dumbeldore and the consequences thereof; and Snape would also have the message that he would need to deliver to Harry, (sending Harry to his death) constantly with him all through HBP. Two things that Snape knew would cost him everything IMO.

He also knew that the result of both the tasks would be a terrible burden for him to bear (we see him sobbing in TPT after DD's death, where he tears Lily picture for solace and strength for the future), for, delivering the message to Harry would almost be worse than killing Dumbeldore IMO.

Snape IMO would have spent the whole year anguished about these two tasks he had to do and I think it was his tremendous self control, Occlumency knowledge, and his determination of keeping the bigger picture in mind, that must have got him through not only year 6, but also year7 IMO.

--------------------
About the Prince's book!

Just why did Snape leave that book behind? I really wonder about this. It had a lot of valuable spells, a lot of useful spells and wonderful potion corrections and yet, he left it behind, when he became DADA teacher.

Harry got it; what if some other person had stolen it. Or did Snape after knowing from McGonagall that Harry did not have his potions book, leave it there? But then, he would have no way of knowing that Harry would get that book from Slughorn.

I find it very surprising that Snape left this book carelessly around. I think it is a plot hole for Harry to land with this book by JKR.

[Drusilla]

Yes, it is surprising given how vivid his memories of it are (when he was shouting at Harry at the end), but I've done similar things with my own textbooks, even important ones- it's not entirely unusual among students to leave old textbooks in a cupboard, assuming it's safe there (and most of the time you'd be right). I don't think he anticipated students turning up for class without books (Harry and Ron didn't know they'd qualified to take Potions and didn't buy their potions books) and getting lent his old book by Slughorn (I'm sure anyone without a book in Snape's time as Potions Master would have been made to share a book, and given a detention ).
In addition, there's another fact that couldn't have been anticipated: Harry replaced the Prince's book with a new Potions book from Flourish and Blotts, having decided he'd keep the Prince's book (because to his mind and that of most people, a new book's a good enough replacement for an old book). That was something Snape couldn't possibly have thought about beforehand, people borrowing books are supposed to return, not replace (with a new book) them.

I also suspect Snape hadn't looked at his old book in years, he probably knew everything in it off by heart.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Drusilla

I don't think he anticipated students turning up for class without books (Harry and Ron didn't know they'd qualified to take Potions and didn't buy their potions books) and getting lent his old book by Slughorn.

I agree. Snape may not have imagined that 6th year students would come to his class without Advanced Potion making; no one knew that Snape would not be taking potions that year and no student would really be careless enough to come to their first Potions NEWTS class without their books IMO.

In addition, there's another fact that couldn't have been anticipated: Harry replaced the Prince's book with a new Potions book from Flourish and Blotts, having decided he'd keep the Prince's book (because to his mind and that of most people, a new book's a good enough replacement for an old book). That was something Snape couldn't possibly have thought about beforehand, people borrowing books are supposed to return, not replace (with a new book) them.

I agree, though Snape did come to know that Harry had his book after the sectumsempra on Draco; but he allowed Harry to get away with the lie; he did not mind Harry having it IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

I'm just curious if you could give a few examples of times when you think he was being boastful...or are you referring to him telling Harry "I am the HBP!" and his behavior in that scene?

Yes, that was the scene we were discussing.

Personally, I think if it was "boastful," it was maybe because he'd been through so much...having to kill Dumbledore and spying...and everyone still hated him and believed him to be a bad guy because he couldn't reveal the truth. So no one even appreciated his efforts. And killing Dumbledore had to be a pretty big emotional drain (he does worry about how it will damage his soul)...so I think he's just frustrated, because he's done all this, and here Harry is calling him a coward, when actually, he's the one who invented the spells Harry is using and helped him out so much.

I respect your view. The way JKR wrote Snape to speak in that scene was entirely boastful and arrogant in my view. Recall the canon:

Harry tried Sectumsempra and Snape repelled the spell. Then Harry tries Levicorpus and Snape screams: "No Potter!" and used a knocking curse to send him reeling backward onto the ground. Then:

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!' ~ HBP Flight of the Prince.

Snape did not say, 'I invented those spells Harry, I am the half blood prince in the book. Don't try to turn them on me!'. That would be frustration to me. What Snape said was that Harry dared to turn his own spell's on him. What he meant by that Snape clarified himself 'like your filthy father, I don't think so'. In other words, imo, Snape felt Harry and his father so inferior to himself, they were not worthy of using his spells - especially against him. My impression of the way JKR wrote Snape saying "I, the Half Blood Prince!" reinforces the idea that he thought very highly of himself, imo.

The words used by Snape reminded me of someone speaking in a Greek tragedy - except that in one of those stories, a king would have been speaking instead of a high school professor. To me, it was boasting pure and simple and I feel it was indicative of Snape's character because he always came across to me as being on a huge ego trip.

[ignisia]

but he allowed Harry to get away with the lie; he did not mind Harry having it IMO.

When Harry casts Sectumsempra, Snape asks Harry to bring all his books. I don't think he'd have let Harry keep the book if he found it in Harry's bag. But he didn't find it because Harry had switched his book with that of "Roonil Wazlib".
Snape then calls him the apt epithets "liar" and "cheat" and gives him detention.

I also doubt that Snape wanted Harry to have his book because of the way he behaves toward similar things. Although we've got tons of internal commentary from Harry about Snape being unfair and all that, he isn't very unfair when it comes to grades, nor is he inclined to give Harry an advantage over other students. Harry's possession of the book both gives him higher grades and an unfair advantage he didn't work for.

[The_Green_Woods]

It is interesting to speculate just what Snape would have done. I think both options are possible; one like you said Iggy, that Snape would take away the book, but another could also be possible; Snape might have been very scathing and said a lot more about suddenly improved grades, lying, cheating and the like and still might have allowed Harry to keep the book IMO.

I lean very slightly towards the second despite agreeing with you on your post because Snape accepted the blatant lie of Roonil Wazlib, when he read Harry's thoughts about what Harry had done with the book and still let it be. He could have very easily demanded Harry take him to where he kept the book, because he knew at that point Harry had lied, and Harry would not be able to disagree, because he too would have known that Snape saw everything IMO.

posted by ignisia
he isn't unfair when it comes to grades, nor is he inclined to give Harry an advantage over other students. Harry's possession of the book both gives him higher grades and an unfair advantage he didn't work for.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by WWB

My impression of the way JKR wrote Snape saying "I, the Half Blood Prince!" reinforces the idea that he thought very highly of himself, imo.

But that is also the reveal of the title character of a highly anticipated book... something that was revealed to us a full year before the release of the book, and something that was highly debated on these forums. Like you said on the Editorials thread... I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[arithmancer]

Within story, Snape could claim he invented the spells and potions corrections Harry has been using all year. But 1) this would actually take longer to say than "I, the Half-Blood Prince!", and 2) Snape's knowledge of that nickname corroborates his claim in a way nothing short of mentioning specific potions improvements Harry might remember, would.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by ignisia

...he isn't very unfair when it comes to grades, nor is he inclined to give Harry an advantage over other students. Harry's possession of the book both gives him higher grades and an unfair advantage he didn't work for.

I agree that, in HBP, Snape was merciful with Harry and the Half-Blood Prince's book. However, in general, I believe Snape was unfair with grades.

In PoA he gave Harry a zero for Harry not being able to get his Confusing Concoction to thicken, as well as incorrectly criticizing some of the work of Lupin's Defense Against the Dark Arts class ("Very poorly explained... That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia... Professor Lupin gave this eight out of ten? I wouldn't have given it three...").

In OotP, he gave Harry a zero for forgetting one ingredient, while Neville's and Goyle's potions were equally bad. He also knocks Harry's potion off his desk, warranting Harry another zero.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

IIn OotP, he gave Harry a zero for forgetting one ingredient, while Neville's and Goyle's potions were equally bad. He also knocks Harry's potion off his desk, warranting Harry another zero.

We do not know what grades Neville and Goyle received, do we?

We also do not know how the potion fell in the other scene you reference, this is not stated in the text, as Harry's back is turned when it happens. I am not inclined to believe Snape did it, because Snape is smart enough to know Harry could go back and fill a second flask for him to grade. (I don't think anyone could guess that Hermione would decide to help Harry out by Vanishing what was left in his cauldron).

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

(I don't think anyone could guess that Hermione would decide to help Harry out by Vanishing what was left in his cauldron).

Well, Snape was in a position to see Hermione when she did vanish it. But don't see what the point of the scene would be if Snape hadn't dropped the flask deliberately. It makes more sense that Snape was still furious over Harry intruding in the Pensieve. That's why he dropped the flask. It showed us he was still angry. And that helped us understand how much emotion Snape had invested in SWM.

[ignisia]

I agree with Zara and would like to point out that Goyle is another one of those kids with families Snape needs to keep tabs on.

However, I agree with MrSleepyHead on the Lupin issue. Correct or not, Snape should not have criticised Lupin's organization in front of the students when Dumbledore is proved to have been an adequate sounding board and open ear, as we see in TPT when he complains about Harry in front of Dumbledore. It's illogical, IMO, to complain about another teacher's organization in front of the students when they can't exactly do anything.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by ignisia

I agree with Zara and would like to point out that Goyle is another one of those kids with families Snape needs to keep tabs on.

However, I agree with MrSleepyHead on the Lupin issue. Correct or not, Snape should not have criticised Lupin's organization in front of the students when Dumbledore is proved to have been an adequate sounding board and open ear, as we see in TPT when he complains about Harry in front of Dumbledore. It's illogical, IMO, to complain about another teacher's organization in front of the students when they can't exactly do anything.

However, what it does do is help perpetuate the idea (whether factual or not) that he is bitter about having not gained the DADA position again.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

But that is also the reveal of the title character of a highly anticipated book... something that was revealed to us a full year before the release of the book, and something that was highly debated on these forums. Like you said on the Editorials thread... I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

One man's molehill is another man's mountain - something else I said over there. .

Nonetheless, JKR wrote it in the way she did and it is a very boastful and arrogant way of speaking, imo. She could have had him just say he was the owner of the book and the name referred to him rather than speaking in those terms. She also added him saying that Harry 'dared' use his spells, like his filthy father, which further attests to his superiority complex, imo.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Well, we come from two entirely different mindsets. You see what you see and I see what I see. A long, drawn-out response just wouldn't be as effective in the reveal of Snape being the Half-Blood Prince, imo. And I hope you don't mind that I 'dared' use the phrase you mentioned elsewhere.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

Well, we come from two entirely different mindsets. You see what you see and I see what I see. A long, drawn-out response just wouldn't be as effective in the reveal of Snape being the Half-Blood Prince, imo.

Well I wasn't thinking of a long drawn out response. I was solely speaking of the manner in which JKR had Snape phrase it together with his other statements regarding Harry and his dad and how that reflected on his character in my judgment. I feel it could have been put concisely without making Snape seem boastful and arrogant, but because it came across that way to me, I assume it was written to read that way precisely to help me better understand Snape's character.

And I hope you don't mind that I 'dared' use the phrase you mentioned elsewhere.

Of course not; everyone is free to call up any previous statement I have made. I appreciate the opportunity to explain if there is confusion or to indicate that I have had a change of heart on some issue and why.

[ignisia]

A quick correction: A "superiority complex" does not actually come from feelings of superiority, as I think has been implied.
And if it did, that would make absolutely no sense in the context of Snape. I think it's pretty clear that much of his behavior comes from feelings of inferiority and insecurity. He did, after all, spend many of his formative years being treated as though he were inferior. That is not to say that he has an inferiority complex (in fact, the true definition of a superiority complex is more applicable, although not 100% so) but he is no James Potter. I do not believe that in his heart of hearts and mind of minds he truly thinks he is better than everyone else.

IMO, when Snape used the word "dare", I think that was more of a response to a perceived personal affront than a declaration of his superiority over Harry. For example, if someone were to say something sexist in front of me, as a woman, I would very likely respond with "How dare you say that!".
Similarly, I believe that Snape, as the inventor of those spells, would find Harry's use of them against him far more personal than when Harry used other spells against him. Especially when it invokes memories of Harry's father.

It is only after Harry tries to cast Sectumsempra that he can finally see Snape's face. I think that was deliberate. JKR wanted us to see how angry that made him.

[DeathlyH]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

Well, we come from two entirely different mindsets. You see what you see and I see what I see. A long, drawn-out response just wouldn't be as effective in the reveal of Snape being the Half-Blood Prince, imo. And I hope you don't mind that I 'dared' use the phrase you mentioned elsewhere.

I actually agree. The way it was revealed, and then with the short scene afterwards where Hermione told Harry about Snape's parents, was a good way to reveal it. It was briefer than I had expected, but good anyways.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ignisia

definition of a superiority complex is more applicable, although not 100% so) but he is no James Potter.

I respect this is your opinion, but I found it very ironic that Snape called Harry and James arrogant because he was one of the most arrogant characters in canon to me. James actually considered all people equal, despite their bloodlines, whereas Snape saw a difference in this regard, holding Muggles and Muggleborns as inferior based on his actions and words, imo. That included Lily in my judgment. Snape appeared to have emotions for her despite of her birthright, whereas others, including James had no issue with this.

It is up to each reader to decide which values they prefer; for me, I preferred Harry and James values over Snape's and Draco's based on their dark arts related proclivities. While I think James and Harry were arrogant in ways (James moreso), Snape was as well, although I would agree it likely arose from different attributes among them. Snape was vulnerable and insecure according to JKR, his reaction to that, imo, was to be someone impressive and powerful and in my judgment, he was willing to strive for that goal using any means necessary (hence becoming a Death Eater). Whereas Harry and his father were more self confident and at times, self righteous, and I think it arose from that attribute for them. To me, father and son were more limited in the means they would use to achieve their ends - which in all honesty I cannot say that canon indicates what any overriding ends might have been for them (like being powerful or popular or well liked or whatever desire.) But I do feel that their young lives on into young adulthood took a more normal route than Snape's, due to the decisions he made and his character as evolved. I speak in terms of youthful flaws that are eliminated or lessened through a natural course of maturity and growing up. Granted, by becoming a DE, Snape placed himself in a position to make his life a lot more difficult in that respect, imo.

I do not believe that in his heart of hearts and mind of minds he truly thinks he is better than everyone else.

I am not sure what you mean by this, so I cannot agree or disagree. I feel that Snape did believe he was superior to those of lesser blood right when he was young. I also feel he believed himself superior when it came to figuring the best ways and means of going about things (i.e., becoming a Death Eater and also relative to his potions book and the nickname he gave himself.) Snape appeared to grasp at whatever power was available to him when he was young, imo, like the self-naming to elevate his status in his head.

I believe that he continued to grasp at it throughout his life in various ways as he was written, imo, to always show smugness when recognized (like by the Minister of Magic) and use any power that came his way (his personal decision to have Sirius and Lupin kissed based on his personal evaluation without allowing them to be heard - his behaving in a manner that abused his position of authority as a professor, imo, and his taking a superior stance with his peers like Tonks despite the hypocrital undertones of his evaluations, imo.) This was further supported, imo, by his becoming angry at the idea that Dumbledore might be sharing information with Harry that he was not privy to.

IMO, when Snape used the word "dare", I think that was more of a response to a perceived personal affront than a declaration of his superiority over Harry. For example, if someone were to say something sexist in front of me, as a woman, I would very likely respond with "How dare you say that!".
Similarly, I believe that Snape, as the inventor of those spells, would find Harry's use of them against him far more personal than when Harry used other spells against him. Especially when it invokes memories of Harry's father.

I respect your view; but even under that interpretation, it begs the question of why he would be affronted. Some people would be honored that others used their spells. That Snape's spells were of torture and humiliation would seem to be the distinction - daring to use such spells against him is an affront, in my opinion, because they could harm or embarrass him and he alone holds the right to harm and embarass others, being superior in having invented them. By inference, he was saying that those who would try to use them against him are inferior and have no right to do so, in my judgment.

In final support, I don't think Snape thought of himself as filthy, so calling him that was a direct statement of his feeling James was inferior (and Harry as well as he is like his father in all of the negative ways Snape has enumerated to that point in the series - in Snape's view - as his statements are always 'just like your father' - and here, Harry is doing the same action his father did, using a spell against him).

So that is what my analysis of the relevant canon with respect to my interpretation of Snape's character in this regard.