Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[Lucretia]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I am not sure what you mean by this, so I cannot agree or disagree. I feel that Snape did believe he was superior to those of lesser blood right when he was young. I also feel he believed himself superior when it came to figuring the best ways and means of going about things (i.e., becoming a Death Eater and also relative to his potions book and the nickname he gave himself.) Snape appeared to grasp at whatever power was available to him when he was young, imo, like the self-naming to elevate his status in his head.

I think Snape hated Muggles due to his experience with his father. And I think he may have adopted some of the views of the Slytherins to fit in and gotten used to the habit of saying "Mudblood"...and when he already hated Muggles, this wouldn't have been too difficult.

And in the world of Slytherin, he knew he's be considered superior to someone like Lily. But Lily was also the person he admired and loved most out of anyone....Even if you see his love as obsessive and unhealthy, why would he be obsessed with someone he thought to be inferior?

Yes, Lily would've had to be different from all other muggle-borns in his eyes...but Snape was intelligent enough to know that if Lily was such a wonderful person, then all muggle-borns couldn't be bad because obviously, that rule was broken by Lily.

Originally Posted by WWB

I respect your view; but even under that interpretation, it begs the question of why he would be affronted. Some people would be honored that others used their spells. That Snape's spells were of torture and humiliation would seem to be the distinction - daring to use such spells against him is an affront, in my opinion, because they could harm or embarrass him and he alone holds the right to harm and embarass others, being superior in having invented them. By inference, he was saying that those who would try to use them against him are inferior and have no right to do so, in my judgment.

But many curses and hexes are humiliating or harming, even if they are not dark magic. As an example, I don't think Fred and George would've liked if someone used certain inventions of theirs against them, you know? But they don't believe they're the only ones with the right to use them against others. And I think it's the same with Snape....I believe he must've shared some of his spells with the Slytherins to impress them, which would've been how they got out and the Marauders heard of Levicorpus. I bet Snape would've been really proud to see the other Slytherins using his spells, nasty however they were...because that showed him his work was appreciated. But that doesn't mean he thought no one had a right to use them. The Death Eaters, for example, were using Levicorpus at the World Cup according to Hermione. This was likely part of Snape's vision when he was a budding Death Eater.

But having the Marauders using the spells to publicly humiliate him, their creator, is way different. Because they're backfiring on him. And having Harry use the same spells against him, attempting to stop him when he needs to escape with the Death Eaters, is not only annoying, but it reminds him of these humiliating instances in his life. And he feels he's better than Harry because, in this case, he is: why should he be impressed or respectful of Harry's use of these spells against him when Harry doesn't even understand he's using them against the man who invented them? In this case, Snape is by default superior: Harry may have the ability to use the spells, but Snape invented them, which took a lot more talent. So when he's being attacked, how can he not feel the urge to rub that in a little bit? At the very least, he has a right to inform Harry, who is completely unaware of this fact.

Originally Posted by WWB

In final support, I don't think Snape thought of himself as filthy, so calling him that was a direct statement of his feeling James was inferior (and Harry as well as he is like his father in all of the negative ways Snape has enumerated to that point in the series - in Snape's view - as his statements are always 'just like your father' - and here, Harry is doing the same action his father did, using a spell against him).

So that is what my analysis of the relevant canon with respect to my interpretation of Snape's character in this regard.

But he may have thought of himself as "filthy"...or at least felt self-loathing to some extent. He hated that he couldn't be good enough for Lily and hated that he helped lead to her death, and I also think he hated himself for becoming a Death Eater...partly because it turned Lily away from him, but also because I think that he did come to accept it as generally wrong, even if Lily was the reason he changed.

So, Snape definitely doesn't believe James is full of flaws while he is perfect. But certain qualities of James'...the bullying, for example, was obviously not something Snape could respect, being on the receiving end. And Snape felt it was cowardly to attack four-on-one. But having negative opinions of qualities expressed by others doesn't automatically make you feel generally super superior.

Besides, deep down Snape knows that in the one way that counts to him, James really was "superior"....He's the one who won Lily's heart in the end. So I just can't accept that Snape was full of himself and considered himself entirely above James.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

I think Snape hated Muggles due to his experience with his father. And I think he may have adopted some of the views of the Slytherins to fit in and gotten used to the habit of saying "Mudblood"...and when he already hated Muggles, this wouldn't have been too difficult.

Well I wasn't discussing the reason why he felt suprerior, but I respect your view. My only point was that he felt that way.

And in the world of Slytherin, he knew he's be considered superior to someone like Lily. But Lily was also the person he admired and loved most out of anyone....Even if you see his love as obsessive and unhealthy, why would he be obsessed with someone he thought to be inferior?

I feel it was because Snape had emotions for Lily despite the fact that she was inferior to him. I feel he believed that she was a 'mudblood', something less than a pureblood or halfblood. I think his feelings were engendered because she was pretty, nice and quite talented in magic. But to me it was clear that he categorized her at some level as a Mudblood or he would have never called her one. If he truly, deeply did not ever even consider her birthright, it wouldn't have occurred to him to call her that. Even if it was because his housemates called her one - that would have brought it to his attention and thereafter, on some level he related to it and agreed, imo.

Note that JKR wrote Snape's mind to work in a special way. He had been friends with Lily for some 5 years or so and still believed that she would be impressed by him becoming a Death Eater. So incompatible ideas worked for Snape in that regard, imo.

Yes, Lily would've had to be different from all other muggle-borns in his eyes...but Snape was intelligent enough to know that if Lily was such a wonderful person, then all muggle-borns couldn't be bad because obviously, that rule was broken by Lily.

To me, intelligence (academic) has nothing to do with it; I feel it is more a "common sense" issue. What you have stated makes perfect sense, but Snape, according to JKR, didn't see things that way. He could think of Lily as a mudblood (hence him calling her one) and at the same time have emotions for her. James was in the scene, but he will confused the point I want to make since there is a tendency to pit he and Snape against one another, but James was like Ron in this regard, so I will use Ron as an example. Ron never "slipped" and called Hermione a "mudblood", no matter how angry he was at her or how overwrought he was emotionally. Even when he was raging with jealousy because he thought she preferred Harry (like at the camp when she stayed despite his leaving) he never made such a "slip" (nor did Harry ever slip and call Hermione a Mudblood, btw). I feel that is because he truly did not consider her one. It was simply outside of his mindset to ever do so because he had not internalized the notion. In that way, James and Ron (and Harry) were the opposite of Snape who had internalized the idea and extended it to Lily on at least some level, imo.

But many curses and hexes are humiliating or harming, even if they are not dark magic. As an example, I don't think Fred and George would've liked if someone used certain inventions of theirs against them, you know? But they don't believe they're the only ones with the right to use them against others.

I agree, and they never stared anyone down, arrogantly stated they were the inventors and declared that the person had "dared" to use their own inventions against them. Nor did they call anyone filthy for doing so. That is the distinction I am making.

And I think it's the same with Snape....I believe he must've shared some of his spells with the Slytherins to impress them, which would've been how they got out and the Marauders heard of Levicorpus. I bet Snape would've been really proud to see the other Slytherins using his spells, nasty however they were...because that showed him his work was appreciated. But that doesn't mean he thought no one had a right to use them. The Death Eaters, for example, were using Levicorpus at the World Cup according to Hermione. This was likely part of Snape's vision when he was a budding Death Eater.

But they didn't use them against Snape. Nor, to my belief, did Snape feel his friends were inferior to him.

And he feels he's better than Harry because, in this case, he is: why should he be impressed or respectful of Harry's use of these spells against him when Harry doesn't even understand he's using them against the man who invented them? In this case, Snape is by default superior: Harry may have the ability to use the spells, but Snape invented them, which took a lot more talent. So when he's being attacked, how can he not feel the urge to rub that in a little bit?

I guess our agreeing to disagree on this point would be best.

At the very least, he has a right to inform Harry, who is completely unaware of this fact.

Well I think JKR could have written it in such a manner that Snape informed Harry without seeming boastful and arrogant (imo). That was my only point.

So, Snape definitely doesn't believe James is full of flaws while he is perfect. But certain qualities of James'...the bullying, for example, was obviously not something Snape could respect, being on the receiving end. And Snape felt it was cowardly to attack four-on-one. But having negative opinions of qualities expressed by others doesn't automatically make you feel generally super superior. Besides, deep down Snape knows that in the one way that counts to him, James really was "superior"....He's the one who won Lily's heart in the end. So I just can't accept that Snape was full of himself and considered himself entirely above James.

Well those things don't make one 'superior' in my view. Some people have talents others don't, like James was better at Quidditch, Snape was better at the dark arts. And love is the same; JKR decided James and Lily were the love of one another's lives, but that does not make James superior, that is just compatiblity between James and Lily based on who they were as opposed to Snape being incompatible with her based on who he was in relation to who she was, imo.

However, as an individual, on the whole, I feel Snape did feel that James and Harry were beneath him, for whatever reason. I think that scene in HBP was indicative of that. I think the scene where he rips the photo and tosses the depiction of father and son onto the floor under the dresser is another indication of this. I feel openly belittling the father (who he helped to kill) before the orphan son is another indication of this. In my judgment, it was a combination of lack of respect and loathing.

[Ginevra Weasley]

In all the time that I've spent reading the books, Snape's open bitterness towards James in front of Harry was the one thing about his character that left a really bad impression on me (along with his bullying of Neville and belittling of Hermione, those were just unfair IMO).

I come from a place where insulting a person's family is the worst kind of insult imaginable (and I see that it's no different in Harry's world, as witnessed by Harry's reaction to Malfoy's calling Lily names at the Quidditch game in OotP), and for Snape to say what he did in PoA to the orphaned child of the person he was calling a big-headed strutter, was truly horrible of him IMO- even if he and Harry got off on the wrong foot, Snape was still, as a teacher, in a position of power over Harry and that kind of behaviour was what made me truly dislike him at first. I can understand if he had to be nasty to Harry in class to keep up appearances for the Voldemort supporters, but the comments about James were generally, as far as I can remember, made in private between the two of them and really, it wasn't necessary to say such things at all IMO.
The explanation of his motives that came in DH was enlightening and saddening (and it really did redeem a lot of what he did), and it doesn't make me like his early behaviour towards the child Harry, any more.

[Lucretia]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well I wasn't discussing the reason why he felt suprerior, but I respect your view. My only point was that he felt that way.

I feel it was because Snape had emotions for Lily despite the fact that she was inferior to him. I feel he believed that she was a 'mudblood', something less than a pureblood or halfblood. I think his feelings were engendered because she was pretty, nice and quite talented in magic. But to me it was clear that he categorized her at some level as a Mudblood or he would have never called her one. If he truly, deeply did not ever even consider her birthright, it wouldn't have occurred to him to call her that. Even if it was because his housemates called her one - that would have brought it to his attention and thereafter, on some level he related to it and agreed, imo.

Note that JKR wrote Snape's mind to work in a special way. He had been friends with Lily for some 5 years or so and still believed that she would be impressed by him becoming a Death Eater. So incompatible ideas worked for Snape in that regard, imo.

To me, intelligence (academic) has nothing to do with it; I feel it is more a "common sense" issue. What you have stated makes perfect sense, but Snape, according to JKR, didn't see things that way. He could think of Lily as a mudblood (hence him calling her one) and at the same time have emotions for her. James was in the scene, but he will confused the point I want to make since there is a tendency to pit he and Snape against one another, but James was like Ron in this regard, so I will use Ron as an example. Ron never "slipped" and called Hermione a "mudblood", no matter how angry he was at her or how overwrought he was emotionally. Even when he was raging with jealousy because he thought she preferred Harry (like at the camp when she stayed despite his leaving) he never made such a "slip" (nor did Harry ever slip and call Hermione a Mudblood, btw). I feel that is because he truly did not consider her one. It was simply outside of his mindset to ever do so because he had not internalized the notion. In that way, James and Ron (and Harry) were the opposite of Snape who had internalized the idea and extended it to Lily on at least some level, imo.

That's all true, but as you said yourself, Snape may have adopted his views because he was surrounded by them in Slytherin. I know you disagree, but I do not think he had a real prejudice against muggle-borns anyway, just that he became used to saying "mudblood." But either way, he picked it up from being in Slytherin....Ron wasn't surrounded by anything like that, and his father loved Muggles, whereas Snape's father gave him a bad idea of Muggles. The situations were just so different. For Ron to call Hermione a Mudblood just wouldn't have made sense based on his negative experiences with someone like Draco who used that word...but Snape's own Housemates used it.

I do agree that Snape did kind of doublethink in terms of loving Lily yet joining an anti-Muggleborn organization to impress her. So he did kind of think he was superior...but it's canceled out by the fact that he feels more inferior. He wants to join the Death Eaters, who believe Lily is inferior: but in his twisted perception, he believes he must do this to impress her because she is a superior person, and if he's not good enough for her, he is inferior to someone like James. Wow, that's probably really confusing-sounding.

Originally Posted by WWB

I agree, and they never stared anyone down, arrogantly stated they were the inventors and declared that the person had "dared" to use their own inventions against them. Nor did they call anyone filthy for doing so. That is the distinction I am making.

But I don't think we've seen any incidences in which someone uses their inventions against them to humiliate them. And if that did happen, I don't think a "how dare you?" would really be out of place.

Originally Posted by WWB

But they didn't use them against Snape. Nor, to my belief, did Snape feel his friends were inferior to him.

But if they had, wouldn't he have thought "how dare they"? Because he's giving them brilliant spells, and they'd be using them against him. Whether he thinks they're superior or inferior as human beings doesn't really change his reaction IMO. From either the Marauders or fellow Slytherins, I don't think attacks using his own creations would be appreciated.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Lucretia

That's all true, but as you said yourself, Snape may have adopted his views because he was surrounded by them in Slytherin.

No, that is not what I meant by what I said. I meant that to me, Snape clearly already held prejudice against muggles prior to stepping foot in Hogwarts. I doubt he walked into the school and immediately called someone a Mudblood, so it is likely he heard some of those already at the school use the term. He may have heard it used while growing up as well. But whenever he first heard it, it started him on the road to internalizing it for himself. That was not something that others caused him to do, nor did they cause him to start using the term himself. Snape made those decisions on his own, imo.

I know you disagree, but I do not think he had a real prejudice against muggle-borns anyway, just that he became used to saying "mudblood." But either way, he picked it up from being in Slytherin....Ron wasn't surrounded by anything like that, and his father loved Muggles, whereas Snape's father gave him a bad idea of Muggles. The situations were just so different. For Ron to call Hermione a Mudblood just wouldn't have made sense based on his negative experiences with someone like Draco who used that word...but Snape's own Housemates used it.

Right; I do disagree with your first assertion. But the last part is what I was saying; Snape internalized it and Ron did not - for whatever reason - so Snape used it because inside he did see a distinction - again, for whatever reason.

I do agree that Snape did kind of doublethink in terms of loving Lily yet joining an anti-Muggleborn organization to impress her. So he did kind of think he was superior...but it's canceled out by the fact that he feels more inferior. He wants to join the Death Eaters, who believe Lily is inferior: but in his twisted perception, he believes he must do this to impress her because she is a superior person, and if he's not good enough for her, he is inferior to someone like James. Wow, that's probably really confusing-sounding.

, yeah it was a bit hard to keep up with what you were saying. . If your point was that he felt inferior in ways and superior in other ways, I could agree with that. We may differ on the things about which he felt himself superior though.

But I don't think we've seen any incidences in which someone uses their inventions against them to humiliate them. And if that did happen, I don't think a "how dare you?" would really be out of place.

I would have to disagree. I couldn't see the twins saying that at all and if they did, I would think it out of place. They seemed to be very good natured about pranks in general, so I feel they would just laugh at themselves. Now if an enemy used one of their pranks on them, I don't think they would take the attitutde of "how dare you" - rather they would just be angry that an enemy had attacked them period - independent of whether they'd used one of their inventions or not.

But if they had, wouldn't he have thought "how dare they"? Because he's giving them brilliant spells, and they'd be using them against him. Whether he thinks they're superior or inferior as human beings doesn't really change his reaction IMO. From either the Marauders or fellow Slytherins, I don't think attacks using his own creations would be appreciated.

I doubt Snape would think 'how dare you' if his friend lifted him up with levicorpus. And it isn't that Snape wouldn't be angry at being lifted up by James or Harry - it is his attitude beyond the anger - to me he was additionally affronted as if inferior beings had dared use his own spells against him.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I meant that to me, Snape clearly already held prejudice against muggles prior to stepping foot in Hogwarts. I doubt he walked into the school and immediately called someone a Mudblood, so it is likely he heard some of those already at the school use the term. He may have heard it used while growing up as well. But whenever he first heard it, it started him on the road to internalizing it for himself. That was not something that others caused him to do, nor did they cause him to start using the term himself. Snape made those decisions on his own, imo.

I know that this might come as a shock to you. But I agree entirely with what you've just said, with one tiny exception to the rule which throws the focus all out of balance. (But of course!). Snape clearly did show plenty of prejudice to muggles before he joined Hogwarts School. There can simply be no doubt about that. The fact that as a young boy he met and grew to like Lily Evans does not add to his atonement in this manner, as he clearly treated her sister Petunia badly, and was heard to call Lily herself a "Mudblood" farther down the line.

However. Internalization as a process, which I do agree was what happened here, was quite feasibly not entirely to do with Severus Snape deciding it on his onesies. Rather, it was his background and depreciating view of the world as granted him, which interrupted his development and caused this to occur. Basically, Snape grew up with this set of values and he grew to accept them. Youth is a time of acceptance and argument, and he accepted these values, likely because they were the only ones on display in his arena of human interactions. Until, that is, he met Lily Evans. She was the one thing that could have caused him to change his set of values, which he didn't so. Psychologically, this makes great sense. He was mortified and humiliated in front of her, by the boy he detested most in the world, James Potter. He knew that they were vying for her attentions, and so he lashed out in anger at her, simply due to his own lack of confidence and his feelings of insignificance in her life. He blamed the wrong person. It's justified in a sense, but in another not at all. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. We're all flawed. But he just picked the wrong girl, wrong day, wrong crowd, wrong word. Unlucky combination.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Right; I do disagree with your first assertion. But the last part is what I was saying; Snape internalized it and Ron did not - for whatever reason - so Snape used it because inside he did see a distinction - again, for whatever reason.

Yes, Snape definitely saw the distinction, and he did choose to become a very dark and shady character, this we agree on. He landed himself in that mess, but I must argue that he did this with a little bit of help. But again, internalization does not just happen. Ron didn't do it because Ron was never presented with those thoughts to internalize them.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

If your point was that he felt inferior in ways and superior in other ways, I could agree with that. We may differ on the things about which he felt himself superior though.

It's not entirely what her point was. She's saying that though Snape joined an organisation that prejudiced Lily to try to feel more powerful. All along he had felt inferior to her. He needed to join to something to make himself look powerful, he just chose something very crude. This is all likely due to his dark thoughts and his leanings toward the dark side anyway, which all makes sense. Her point is, that he did something very silly out of desperation to impress. He just didn't think it through. Perhaps he just never wanted to.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Now if an enemy used one of their pranks on them, I don't think they would take the attitutde of "how dare you" - rather they would just be angry that an enemy had attacked them period - independent of whether they'd used one of their inventions or not.

I almost entirely agree with you, I just want to add that sometimes, something you've created being turned on you to humiliate you when really it was made to give you pride is sort of... less than attractive, and bound to anger you more than a normal attack. It lowers confidence and self esteem, so I see why he was so very upset about it, and not just plain riled.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

To me he was additionally affronted as if inferior beings had dared use his own spells against him.

I agree with this part, but again I must add. He was doubly affronted because Lily was there when they did it. There can be no doubt but that his feelings for her guided his life, even in it's earlier inept sections.

In the long term, I would have to say that he was one of the most flawed characters in the entire series, and that he certainly had a lot to atone for. However, I do believe he atoned for it, almost in its entirety, because I know that it's one life I would not like to lead. Not only was he isolated from her, but that wound never healed because he was isolated from everybody else too. It's a loneliness I couldn't bear at all. Where I consider that he didn't atone for it entirely, I have replaced that feeling with pity.

Let me explain why. In the last few moments of the book, Harry Potter reaches out to his son and says "You were named for two Headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin, and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

Harry was able to forgive, and he was able to ally his feelings of earlier hatred and grief at Severus Snape into a productive, positive and very permanent piece of his life. This is something Snape, for all of his eventual redemptive storylines and plots, was distinctly unable to do. It's a trait I cannot admire, and it makes him flawed irrelevant of what he otherwise achieved. It is, however, ironically, this flaw that makes him one of the most human and realistic characters in the book. And it is for that reason that I genuinely appreciate him, scar tissue and all.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

However. Internalization as a process, which I do agree was what happened here, was quite feasibly not entirely to do with Severus Snape deciding it on his onesies. Rather, it was his background and depreciating view of the world as granted him, which interrupted his development and caused this to occur. Basically, Snape grew up with this set of values and he grew to accept them. Youth is a time of acceptance and argument, and he accepted these values, likely because they were the only ones on display in his arena of human interactions. Until, that is, he met Lily Evans. She was the one thing that could have caused him to change his set of values, which he didn't so.

You have just described what I meant by internalization, so we agree. Perhaps that is not the label you would use for it, so whatever you would call it, we mean the same thing. .

Psychologically, this makes great sense. He was mortified and humiliated in front of her, by the boy he detested most in the world, James Potter. He knew that they were vying for her attentions, and so he lashed out in anger at her, simply due to his own lack of confidence and his feelings of insignificance in her life. He blamed the wrong person. It's justified in a sense, but in another not at all. Sometimes we say things we don't mean. We're all flawed. But he just picked the wrong girl, wrong day, wrong crowd, wrong word. Unlucky combination.

I would have to respectfully disagree that he blamed the wrong person. In my opinion, he meant to blame Lily entirely. Here's why: First, Lily was defending him the entire time. Second, James provoked his statement by saying 'you should be glad Evans is here' (paraphrase). At that point, I assume you feel Snape became humiliated and angry (as stated in the book) because James, also vying for her attentions, had one upped him (making him feel inferior and without confidence by saying he needed help from a girl) in front of her (tell me if I misunderstood you). However, I don't think that was why Snape lashed out at Lily at all.

If Snape had only said "I don't need help from a girl" - then I would agree. But he didn't, he was aiming to hurt Lily - he absolutely knew it would hurt her to be called a filthy little Mudblood, imo. It does not make sense to me that Snape's only reasons for wanting to hurt Lily was because he felt a lack of confidence and insignificant in her life - lashing out at her would not help him out in that regard at all.

Now my view is very dependent on my interpretation of the whole scene, so if you disagree with it, then I understand you would search for something else, so I respect your view. But here is my analysis:

Snape stood their fuming mad while Lily, in the midst of defending him, starts questioning James in a familiar manner. I feel Snape believed Lily might like James in return because in the scene before (DH), he was "walking on air" when she called him an arrogant toerag when he mentioned James fancied her. So he see's her ask James why he is fighting with Snape - and then she knows James is trying to be funny with his answer. Now to you and me, that is perhaps common sense - obviously there is more to James' reason than "Snape exists" - otherwise he'd hate everyone, including his best mates who also "exist" . But imagine Snape listening in and she shows understanding of James' character and that would be meaningless, except that he also believes that she might like him. The two go on talking and James says 'he'll leave Snape alone if she'll go out with him' - a clear bribe, but instead of replying that bribing her under the circumstances is despicable (which would include Snape in her response indirectly), Lily replies 'I'd rather date the giant squid' which is a wholly personal opinion with no regard for Snape at all. Again, to you and me, she is just being rude to James. But from Snape's POV, she is ignoring Snape altogether and chatting with James.

Now note in all of this, Lily has not said one word to Snape (who has suffered all the hexing so far), nor does she speak one word to Sirius, who has been hexing as much as James. I repeat, for you and I reading, she might have just spoken to James arbitrarily, but from Snape's POV, Lily is speaking to James and ignoring everyone else. It makes absolutely no difference what they are talking about because they are suddenly having this little private interchange and ignoring everyone else around them (Snape's POV.)

Snape's fury builds to unknown heights at this point, and he is furious with James, but Lily also, because both took part in this; James is flirting and Lily is participating in this private little moment. Now deep down, Snape was intuitive enough to get the feeling Lily liked James and he was correct. When told in interview that Lily hated James by the interviewer, JKR responded:

JKR Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet Interview "did she? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]"

So to me, that is what caused Snape's fury at both parties involved. His next move was against James, who retaliated. Lily demands he be put down, James complies and makes the provocative statement. I feel Snape disagrees with James. Imo, he doesn't feel lucky at all that Lily is there - because James is there also. I feel He feels betrayed by Lily for her earlier behavior and ignoring him (which hurt). Also, he is utterly enraged that in truth, it was because Lily was there that James released him (supporting Snape's view that James fancies her - and worse, Lily is behaving like she might like him too) Now he is steaming with anger - which he might have contained, except that James brought her to the forefront of his attention, and all of his anger at her explodes (also fueled by the humiliation and anger Snape feels at being lifted by his own spell by the "filthy James" - as mentioned in HBP). But the humiliation takes second place to Lily ignoring him and behaving as if he indeed does not "exist" - also humiliating. That is why I feel Snape lashed out at her, wishing to hurt and humiliate her as he felt she had hurt and humiliate him.

So that is how I interpret that scene and why I do not agree that Snape lashed out at the wrong person. I feel he lashed out at exactly who he meant to lash out at: Lily, 'the betrayer' Evans. .

Now I don't feel that I can conclude Lily would see it the way Snape did (or even James), but I do understand how and why Snape would see it the way he did, per my interpretation.

It's not entirely what her point was. She's saying that though Snape joined an organisation that prejudiced Lily to try to feel more powerful. All along he had felt inferior to her. He needed to join to something to make himself look powerful, he just chose something very crude. This is all likely due to his dark thoughts and his leanings toward the dark side anyway, which all makes sense. Her point is, that he did something very silly out of desperation to impress. He just didn't think it through. Perhaps he just never wanted to.

I don't know if 'silly' is the word I would use to describe Snape's choice to join up with the Death Eaters. But if you mean he was thinking in a silly manner to believe Lily would be impressed by him doing so, I would agree. Although I think a better word would be illogical.

I agree with this part, but again I must add. He was doubly affronted because Lily was there when they did it. There can be no doubt but that his feelings for her guided his life, even in it's earlier inept sections.

However, Lily wasn't present when Snape was dealing with Harry in HBP, so I am not sure I follow you...

Let me explain why. In the last few moments of the book, Harry Potter reaches out to his son and says "You were named for two Headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin, and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

Harry was able to forgive, and he was able to ally his feelings of earlier hatred and grief at Severus Snape into a productive, positive and very permanent piece of his life. This is something Snape, for all of his eventual redemptive storylines and plots, was distinctly unable to do. It's a trait I cannot admire, and it makes him flawed irrelevant of what he otherwise achieved. It is, however, ironically, this flaw that makes him one of the most human and realistic characters in the book. And it is for that reason that I genuinely appreciate him, scar tissue and all.

Harry is a saint and I respect your view that it is an admirable way to feel and thus you can find pity as a result. However, I am not Harry Potter and while I think it was good for him to forgive for his own sake and sanity, I cannot forgive on his behalf - I suppose because I am far from being a saint. .

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

You have just described what I meant by internalization, so we agree. Perhaps that is not the label you would use for it, so whatever you would call it, we mean the same thing. .

Yes, we agree on what it is, but you had not clarified why, as such, it is. I provided the background info there, so we could found it in something as opposed saying it just occurred for no reason. We do, however, agree on the dictionary definition, which spells hope!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Now my view is very dependent on my interpretation of the whole scene, so if you disagree with it, then I understand you would search for something else, so I respect your view.

Apologies for not quoting the entire thing, it's more to save space than anything else. However, we do agree that this is what happened. I agree with you wholeheartedly, Snape meant to hurt her as much as he could. Frankly, I empathise with that. I know that feeling of blind, absolute rage. Everybody does, so I cannot possibly disagree with you in this instance. Nor did I qualify what I meant with what you have just put in front of me, and with which I agree. Let me explain more, without digressing too much.

I agree with everything you say about Severus Snape, and I look further back, into what causes the emotional responses inside his head. It's not just as simple as saying he wanted to hurt her, it has to be qualified. He wanted to hurt her, as you pointed out, and you did actually point out why. Instead of typing that out, I state that it is because he is mortified, humiliated, degraded and for all intents and purposes, dispossessed in that moment. Your reasoning is entirely correct, I believe, and I agree with it totally. You have shown Snape's point of view. I just gave the emotions, because I'm lazier than you .

Basically, it's 13 and a baker's dozen, we agree.

I don't know if 'silly' is the word I would use to describe Snape's choice to join up with the Death Eaters. But if you mean he was thinking in a silly manner to believe Lily would be impressed by him doing so, I would agree. Although I think a better word would be illogical.

You're a law student. I'm almost certain of it now! Silly isn't the word, you're right. But neither was it illogical. It would have given him power. The word I would choose is "fallacious". And what I truly meant by that piece is that his planning was... whatever word we choose to use.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

However, Lily wasn't present when Snape was dealing with Harry in HBP, so I am not sure I follow you...

I thought we were discussing that moment in his own youth when Levilicorpus, his own spell, was used against him? She was there for that, so that's what I was referring to. If though, I was taking you up incorrectly on that, apologies. My point was that the fact that Potter and Black had used his own curse against him, and with Lily present, when he already saw them as "inferior", would make him hypertensive and thus he would end up feeling even more so humiliated, degraded, same old story.. You know that tune, I don't have to hum it for you.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Harry is a saint and I respect your view that it is an admirable way to feel and thus you can find pity as a result. However, I am not Harry Potter and while I think it was good for him to forgive for his own sake and sanity, I cannot forgive on his behalf - I suppose because I am far from being a saint. .

I think you misunderstood me. The reason I analyze Snape so much is simply because I cannot forgive him at all. I appreciate his character most for its realism, but I don't forgive him what he did. I just pity him his losses and his similar inabilities.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Yes, we agree on what it is, but you had not clarified why, as such, it is. I provided the background info there, so we could found it in something as opposed saying it just occurred for no reason. We do, however, agree on the dictionary definition, which spells hope!

Ah, well I dunno, I suppose we'd have to discuss it in more detail before I could agree. On the face, I would agree that what you said played into it, but there were a couple of points that made me feel you were cutting out his autonomy and ability to make decisions and choices and I wouldn't agree with that (if that is what you meant). Draco too was only presented with the one outlook and as far as I know, he remained a blood purist - but he was immersed in surroundings at Hogwarts where many and varied views were presented for his perusal and that is when his autonomy, decision making and choice would come into play. I feel the same way about Snape.

You're a law student. I'm almost certain of it now! Silly isn't the word, you're right. But neither was it illogical. It would have given him power. The word I would choose is "fallacious". And what I truly meant by that piece is that his planning was... whatever word we choose to use.

Yes I am, but going into business if that helps. . I still feel he was being illogical; in that way he arrived at his fallacious thought. He went from thinking that if he were impressive and powerful, Lily would be impressed (perhaps). However, he went on to decide that his means: joining a group that wants to subjugate people like her in addition to behaving in a manner and under the guidance of Voldemort (who they were already calling "you-know-who" out of fear based on his activities to that point) - would be immaterial to Lily - all that mattered was the goal. Based on just the snippet of conversation we heard between Lily and Snape in DH, I am hard pressed to understand how he could arrive at that conclusion. To me, it had to include a false/irrational assumption on Snape's part about Lily. Although he may have just skipped that step because JKR said he didn't understand Lily's aversion to his dark arts interest and friends. .

I think you misunderstood me. The reason I analyze Snape so much is simply because I cannot forgive him at all. I appreciate his character most for its realism, but I don't forgive him what he did. I just pity him his losses and his similar inabilities.

Ah, well I don't have pity for him either. However, I have never understood why people say that his behavior makes him more 'real'. Honestly, I know a some people that maybe exhibit a trait or two he had, but I have maybe met one person like Snape in my entire life. So I don't understand how he can be more 'realistic' to people. To me, he is an anomoly when you consider him on the whole - I mean a person with all of those traits and problems together? But maybe others simply have numerous Snape-like people in their lives and that is why they see his behavior as making him more 'real'.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Ah, well I dunno, I suppose we'd have to discuss it in more detail before I could agree. On the face, I would agree that what you said played into it, but there were a couple of points that made me feel you were cutting out his autonomy and ability to make decisions and choices and I wouldn't agree with that (if that is what you meant). Draco too was only presented with the one outlook and as far as I know, he remained a blood purist - but he was immersed in surroundings at Hogwarts where many and varied views were presented for his perusal and that is when his autonomy, decision making and choice would come into play. I feel the same way about Snape.

No, it's not really what I meant. Well, not really. I'll say it on written record, Snape made his own very very poor decisions. There can be no doubt about that. I think the contrast with Draco is a great one for this example, by the way, good one !

Excuse my chronology here, I'll try to get it right, but if I make a mistake, tell me. I see this going on a bit, so sorry about that ... You know you love it. Anyway. Rowling has given us estimates of years on some things, and one of them is that in 1942, Tom Riddle, aged 15, killed the Riddles and framed Morfin Gaunt. 1945 was his last year in school. He took a job at Borgin and Burkes, and circa 1947, he appears as Lord Voldemort.

Harry's version of "Advanced Potion Making" is dated with a publishing date of 1948. It is "nearly fifty years old" in his, Harry's, sixth year. The book belonged to Severus Snape, and to his mother, Eileen Prince, before him. This is all canon. By 1956, Voldemort had begun to seriously gather followers, and he had already been a huge and central part of an influential group in his school days.

It can easily be argued that Eileen Prince was caught up in this, both as a Slytherin and as someone within Voldemort's own generation. It's certainly not impossible that she was somehow impressed by his power and strength, and that she, like all young people, bought somewhat into his ideas, if not to the complete way that others did. Admittedly she married a Muggle, but it wasn't exactly a happy relationship, and certainly the marriage was fraught, Snape says so himself.

Severus Snape was born in January (9th), 1960. In 1966, Voldemort was supposed to have begun his first campaign of terror. In 1970, the war begins. It will end with the "defeat" of Voldemort by Harry Potter's hand (head? , in 1981. In 1971, Snape begins his education in Hogwarts School. It seems realistic to assume that the ideas at least were part of Eileen's younger years, an influential time. It could easily be that this was, Snape grew up with the advocacy of a hatred of Muggles, added to by the fact that his father, one of the only Muggles he really knew, seemed unpleasant, and that the other Muggle kids picked on him.

Nonetheless, he arrived at school with one friend, Lily Evans. We know that Lucius Malfoy was a capable and attractive force with strong influences on Severus Snape from a very early age. In fact, he was the first person (that we know of) that Snape was introduced to when he was sorted into Slytherin. The Prefect Lucius pats him on the back quite affectionately as he takes his seat at that table for the first time. Within the following years, he began hanging around with Mulciber, Avery, all round mean peeps who all became Death Eaters. There were no secrets about their intentions, Lily herself is well aware of these.

Where in the name of Dobby's teacosy am I going with this essay, you ask. (And rightly so ). My point is that Snape was very influenced by his mother, his father, the Muggle children and his school peers, not to mention the impressive figure of Lucius Malfoy, in his early years. He was presented with a view of other children and teenagers, yes, but they also disliked him, called him names, bullied him and humiliated him. I think, given these circumstances, he is justified slightly in his very poor decisions. I mean, there's a list of things here that point to a lack of social functioning. In reference to your point, about Draco, it's much the same situation. Taking his point of view for a moment, his father grew up a Death Eater in waiting, his mother the same. This proves that Hogwarts was full with them at that time, when Snape was most easily influenced. Draco was rejected by Harry Potter (rightly so, but bear with me). He was humiliated by a muggle born witch, something he had always seen as inferior, and he too was guided toward the dark side, culminating in much pain and him realising that this was not what he wanted, because he simply couldn't face being a killer.

In the same way, Snape, though his original request to save only Lily was despicable, turned from the Death Eaters, because he realised that he had made the wrong choice, losing Lily along the way.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Yes I am, but going into business if that helps.

I think you'll do fantastically at it. Good luck.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Based on just the snippet of conversation we heard between Lily and Snape in DH, I am hard pressed to understand how he could arrive at that conclusion. To me, it had to include a false/irrational assumption on Snape's part about Lily. Although he may have just skipped that step because JKR said he didn't understand Lily's aversion to his dark arts interest and friends. .

. Based on the chronology I spent a half hour thinking through, I disagree. I see exactly where he got his warped logic from. In fact, I see more than four places he located it from and why he internalized it. The Death Eaters looked powerful, they were strong. He would have power, he could beat Potter and win Lily. He was a kid stuck in something that he didn't entirely understand, perhaps. Regardless of that, I understand exactly how he reached that conclusion, and that's even if you discount his mother from the equation for not being entirely rooted in canon. He skipped the step, because he had never really seen the step to take. He saw no difference. Power, or no power.
Because power was what Sirius and James had over him, and I know if it were me, I would have wanted the same.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Ah, well I don't have pity for him either. However, I have never understood why people say that his behavior makes him more 'real'. Honestly, I know a some people that maybe exhibit a trait or two he had, but I have maybe met one person like Snape in my entire life. So I don't understand how he can be more 'realistic' to people. To me, he is an anomoly when you consider him on the whole - I mean a person with all of those traits and problems together? But maybe others simply have numerous Snape-like people in their lives and that is why they see his behavior as making him more 'real'.

That's not necessarily true. It's more that, in the context of the books, with the preface and epigraphs based on triumphing over death with love, and of love being the foundation of success, and of love being the be all and end all, Snape is a rather large chunk of irony. The series otherwise places people in black or white camps. Grey areas are really hard to find in it, but he is definitely one.

Love was essentially what stopped him in his tracks and made him think, at long last, for himself. Entirely based in greed though that thought was, he did think it, and he gave up his chances of power for it. In the context of the series, and not real life, Snape is still a pariah, but he's certainly a more realistic example of conscience and how it wavers. It's the contrast with other characters that causes it, I reckon.

I dearly hope I've been clear enough here... half an hour... What else is worth this?!

EDIT: Duckie had a silly moment. It is fixed now though.. for anyone who noticed!

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

No, it's not really what I meant. Well, not really. I'll say it on written record, Snape made his own very very poor decisions. There can be no doubt about that. I think the contrast with Draco is a great one for this example, by the way, good one !

Thanks. I do agree for the most part with your chronology. But I will insert a couple of facts I feel you left out that change the conclusion for me to some degree.

Excuse my chronology here, I'll try to get it right, but if I make a mistake, tell me. I see this going on a bit, so sorry about that ... You know you love it. Anyway. Rowling has given us estimates of years on some things, and one of them is that in 1942, Tom Riddle, aged 15, killed the Riddles and framed Morfin Gaunt. 1945 was his last year in school. He took a job at Borgin and Burkes, and circa 1947, he appears as Lord Voldemort.

Harry's version of "Advanced Potion Making" is dated with a publishing date of 1948. It is "nearly fifty years old" in his, Harry's, sixth year. The book belonged to Severus Snape, and to his mother, Eileen Prince, before him. This is all canon. By 1956, Voldemort had begun to seriously gather followers, and he had already been a huge and central part of an influential group in his school days.

Agreed.

It can easily be argued that Eileen Prince was caught up in this, both as a Slytherin and as someone within Voldemort's own generation. It's certainly not impossible that she was somehow impressed by his power and strength, and that she, like all young people, bought somewhat into his ideas, if not to the complete way that others did. Admittedly she married a Muggle, but it wasn't exactly a happy relationship, and certainly the marriage was fraught, Snape says so himself.

Severus Snape was born in January (9th), 1960. In 1966, Voldemort was supposed to have begun his first campaign of terror. In 1970, the war begins and ends with the "defeat" of Voldemort by Harry Potter's hand. In 1971, Snape begins his education in Hogwarts School. It seems realistic to assume that the ideas at least were part of Eileen's younger years, an influential time.

This is where the first assumption comes in that I may disagree with. I say 'may' because I am not sure what you mean exactly. I feel it very possible that Eileen was caught up with and impressed by Voldemort early on. However, whatever she believed about all of that, like you said, she married a muggle. Now I find it tremendously hard that she would be full support behind Voldemort, who is so disdainful against muggles. So while I think she may have been proud of her pure blood heritage, not to the degree of say Lucius who would have decapitated himself before marrying a muggle. So her view on muggles was clearly less than disdainful and hateful which is what we see with Death Eaters in the main (granted to varying degrees).

Missing facts: Either Eileen was into the dark arts, or she had library books about the dark arts - or some access to them that her son could also gain access to. Snape learned some dark curses prior to arriving at Hogwarts, so this is necessarily true. He could not even use magic legally before he went, but any thing he did would be put down to 'accidental magic' or Eileen would claim she'd done it. Nonetheless, Snape somehow learned some curses. I assume Sirius may have been exaggerating that he knew more than some 7th years, but even if it were just 2 or 3, he learned some.

At this point he may have become fascinated with the dark arts, it seems likely as in addition, he determined that he wanted to be in Slytherin house. Now I am inclined to say this was all his mum's influence because we saw that happen so much in canon. But his statement to Lily on the train, 'you better be in Slytherin' indicates he had a firm desire to be there himself, imo.

Finally, if others at Hogwarts were aware that Snape knew the curses upon arrival at Hogwarts, I cannot think of any reasonable way for them to know this unless he used them early on. Otherwise, it would be more reasonable to assume he learned them at Hogwarts from his older friends. Now this may not mean he used them on other children, although it could mean that - but, he could have just been showing them to his new housemates or something along those lines. Nonetheless, he somehow manifested this so others could know, imo. So these missing facts taken together show that Snape may have already had a fascination with the dark arts; knew some curses before arriving at Hogwarts and had a fervent desire to be in Slytherin. This may have been his mother's influence or some other influence (books or whatever).

It could easily be that this was, Snape grew up with the advocacy of a hatred of Muggles, added to by the fact that his father, one of the only Muggles he really knew, seemed unpleasant, and that the other Muggle kids picked on him.

This brings out another assumption. I agree Snape disliked his muggle father. However, it is an assumption to me to say that the muggle kids picked on him, imo. First, Snape disliked his dad and he apparently already knew the difference between Muggles and Wizards. His mum likely told him that the children in the neighborhood were muggles. So he ventures out in his odd, mix matched and overly large clothing and the kids likely laugh at the sight of him.

I would agree, one could construe that as 'picking on him' - but it is something Snape could overcome if his attitude allowed him too. But Snape looked back on these kids with disdain - they were muggles, lesser beings (wizards v. muggles) and he reached the decision that they were not worth his time or energy. I cannot be convinced that Snape could not have befriended these kids. I had a friend who dressed in similarly weird clothes (his sister's handme downs) and the first time we met him (he'd just moved to the neighborhood) he was wearing a top hat, together with his weird clothes. We fell out laughing and teased him mercilessly. You know what he did? He grinned, he told us his clothes were cool, and laughed with us. He was also very slow in too many ways to relate, so we nicknamed him that first day a word that translates as "worm". He laughed at that too. You couldn't help but like the guy because he was so good natured and could laugh at himself. Well he became our best mate, despite his weird clothes and that continued to include wearing weird stuff he found at his grandparent's house (like the top hat). Plus he was always late, slow to catch on and you had to repeat things to him several times. But it didn't matter, he still became one of us.

So based on experience, I know that it is not only kid's reactions to you, but your response that also determines the outcome of interaction. Snape, in canon, told Petunia that he wouldn't bother spying on her cuz she was nothing more than a muggle (paraphrased for meaning). So he apparently did not laugh at himself when he met the kids laughing at his clothes and disdaining of him for being on the wrong side of the tracks. He did not grin at them and show that he wanted to be one of them despite his differences. He may have just ran away and said nothing. But whatever his response, he didn't befriend, instead he isolated himself from the muggle kids. In doing so, if he continued to put himself in their presence, they would likely continue to laugh at him. But I have a real hard time as seeing that as "picking on him" if he was disdainful of them, yet kept going around them.

Little kids are not accepting of 'weird', that is just how it is. So you have to befriend them by showing them that under the wierd clothes, you are not weird. But the fact is, Snape was 'weird' because he believed himself different and better and so together with his clothes and attitude, he would become a werido to their young minds. It is not nice of kids to be that way, but they are.

Note the distinction with Lily. Snape was weird when he approached her and her sister too. They marched right away from the weirdo. But Snape not only didn't give up and disdain Lily, he came out of his shell and found a way to befriend her, because he wanted to. He did not feel that way about the other muggle kids or the muggle Petunia. So that is what I mean by Snape's response to the situation being important. It was not Lily who was different (she ran away too and appeared to agree that Snape looked weird), but it was Snape who was different with her, imo.

Nonetheless, he arrived at school with one friend, Lily Evans. We know that Lucius Malfoy was a capable and attractive force with strong influences on Severus Snape from a very early age. In fact, he was the first person (that we know of) that Snape was introduced to when he was sorted into Slytherin. The Prefect Lucius pats him on the back quite affectionately as he takes his seat at that table for the first time. Within the following years, he began hanging around with Mulciber, Avery, all round mean peeps who all became Death Eaters. There were no secrets about their intentions, Lily herself is well aware of these.

We don't know when Lily became aware they were all planning to join Voldemort. I would imagine they didn't even decide 1st year. Maybe 2nd year at the earliest. But Lily would not become aware of this; all that we know she knew about Snape was that he was interested in the dark arts as were his friends and they did things she did not like (calling others Mudblood, using dark curses, etc.) By 5th year, we know Lily knew Snape's buddies were all going to join. But she admitted she was "pretending" with Snape. She had convinced herself that he was not like them, despite his showing otherwise in his behavior and beliefs (dark arts fascination, use of dark curses and calling others mudblood.) She claimed she had been making excuses for him for years for these things. I imagine it was to say that Snape's friends influenced him but "he wasn't really like them".

Where in the name of Dobby's teacosy am I going with this essay, you ask. (And rightly so ). My point is that Snape was very influenced by his mother, his father, the Muggle children and his school peers, not to mention the impressive figure of Lucius Malfoy, in his early years. He was presented with a view of other children and teenagers, yes, but they also disliked him, called him names, bullied him and humiliated him.

Snape was unpopular. He came in doing curses and adopted the habit of calling others mudblood. He was also fascinated with the dark arts, something that was known about him ('up to his ears in the dark arts) and the reason that Sirius said James didn't like him. Now it is very difficult for me personally to understand Snape as the victim of "everyone" disliking him, calling him names, bullying him and humiliating him for no reason at all. He had 4 specific enemies that we know of, and they would of course follow that pattern (as he would against them) - but I feel he was unpopular because of what he did and said and the people he hung around.

For example, some non descript Ravenclaw boy, who did nothing in particular, and let's say he disliked fighting - so he was one in the crowd in SWM who was not cheering or laughing. But this boy would not move in to help Snape either (although he might help another out) - in my judgment, because he would see Snape calling his buddies 'mudblood', laughing it up when his mates used dark magic on others, using his dark curses - at some point against 'his enemies' to the point where his Sectumsempra became a specialty; and he would know, as others did, Snape hung with the "dangerous gang", many of whom joined Voldemort - plus he was into the dark arts. Now for this kid, Snape is unpopular not because he is Snape's enemy, but because of who Snape is and the things he does, says and appears to believe. This kid hates fighting, so he is not cheering James and Sirius on when they have the advantage and he wishes "no one would fight at Hogwarts ever" and he never fights himself. But he has no desire to help Snape or befriend Snape or associate with Snape in anyway shape or form - just as he would feel about Mulciber, Avery, Bella and Lucius. Those people are "unpopular" to him because of who they are and what they do.

So I think a lot of people felt like the 'non descript' kid. Some of them were not against fighting at all and may have been happy to see any of those in the budding death eater group 'get theirs'. Some of them too, would like to hex those in the 'dangerous group', but perhaps were not brave enough to do so.

Now Snape also had poor hygiene, which was another reason kids wouldn't take to him - but they would just ignore him over that, so he would be an outcast perhaps in any case. And there may have been some of that going on, even with his own housemates to some extent. But his friends and those he hung around, were all budding Death Eaters, all "outcasts" in that light. Snape would just have this extra added bit to his outcastedness. (is that a word? )

I think, given these circumstances, he is justified slightly in his very poor decisions. I mean, there's a list of things here that point to a lack of social functioning.

So we arrive at your conclusion. Based on what I have said; I agree that Snape had many influences, good (Lily, and those other students who were just 'good') as well as bad (his dad, those in his dangerous gang). I do not agree that he is justified slightly anymore than anyone else. For example, Mulciber too had influences that lead to his poor decision to become a death eater. ALL of those who became Death Eaters could be similarly justified. ALL of those who became Order Members could claim similar justifications for their choices too. So to me it doesn't stand to give Snape some kind of "highlighted justification" for his poor choices anymore than it does anyone else. Further, Snape made a lot of autonomous decisions that lead him down that path: determining to be in Slytherin, befriending those budding Death Eaters there, creating dark curses and using them, generally fascinated with the dark arts, accepting the DE way and calling others mudblood. Influence is one thing, but Snape in the end, had to make choices - just like everyone else.

Sirius could have been a formidable Death Eater. But he chose to become an Order Member instead. It came down to a choice and he had a lot of good reasons to go the other way from when he was a child. His mentality was reckless and a bit dangerous. I mean he was all set. But he went the other way. It was a choice, despite the bad influences - because he allowed the good influences to rule his choice, imo.

. Based on the chronology I spent a half hour thinking through, I disagree. I see exactly where he got his warped logic from. In fact, I see more than four places he located it from and why he internalized it. The Death Eaters looked powerful, they were strong. He would have power, he could beat Potter and win Lily. He was a kid stuck in something that he didn't entirely understand, perhaps. Regardless of that, I understand exactly how he reached that conclusion, and that's even if you discount his mother from the equation for not being entirely rooted in canon. He skipped the step, because he had never really seen the step to take. He saw no difference. Power, or no power. Because power was what Sirius and James had over him, and I know if it were me, I would have wanted the same.

Power I don't think is what you mean - but you may. If James and Sirius had "power" over Snape, he would have ended up joining the Order. What they had was the advantage in SWM. That was all we saw. We can imagine scenarios with Snape following them around and getting busted at it and also being at a disadvantage. We can imagine scenarios where James is off to Quidditch practice, alone, and Snape and his buddies have the advantage and take it. Same with Peter doing a lone stint in Herbology class - Snape and Mulciber see him and attack. We can come up with 100 scenarios.

But you know what? All we know for sure is that SWM happened; there were other fights (we don't know who started them), there was hexing in 7th that Snape started solely against James and he retaliated; and we know that Snape created a dark curse "for enemies" (the Marauders) and it became his specialty at Hogwarts. That is the only canon we have. So for me, it was not a matter of someone having "power in attacking" - but rather power in less objective forms. For example: James: Quidditch hero, popularity, Lily, v. Snape: unpopular, lack of athleticism, no Lily. This at various times at Hogwarts. So Snape may have seen these things as power, but the 'power' had nothing to do with their fighting, because if Snape whipped out Sectumsempra, who has the power then?

But Snape might have seen that power in many people. James for the reasons I gave; Lucius because of his ancestry, leadership position and having the admiration of his friends; and others at school for various reasons. He also saw power in Voldemort and that was his manner of achieving it. But that had nothing to do with Lucius or James or anyone else, except in an extraneous way. They seemed to have these little facets of power he didn't. But more importantly, he also had a VERY powerful man in his presence: Dumbledore. Equal in all ways to Voldemort, except that Voldemort seemed to be in the winning position for the moment (at least not caught and presumably uncatchable). So Snape could have gone for Dumbledore for power right from the bat, but he chose not to do so.

That's not necessarily true. It's more that, in the context of the books, with the preface and epigraphs based on triumphing over death with love, and of love being the foundation of success, and of love being the be all and end all, Snape is a rather large chunk of irony. The series otherwise places people in black or white camps. Grey areas are really hard to find in it, but he is definitely one.

I don't see Snape as grey. I used to say I did. But I think if I saw him as grey, I would agree with you. But when I consider all of the things he did before his turn; AND all of the things he did while on the good side; it does not add up to a middling position of grey. It adds up to a very, very dark grey, tettering on black. So I do not agree with that take.

Love was essentially what stopped him in his tracks and made him think, at long last, for himself. Entirely based in greed though that thought was, he did think it, and he gave up his chances of power for it. In the context of the series, and not real life, Snape is still a pariah, but he's certainly a more realistic example of conscience and how it wavers. It's the contrast with other characters that causes it, I reckon.

I am not sure what JKR's point was with Snape. He loved and that was all that mattered? I don't care how in love with love she is, I personally do see great distinctions in the love that Harry, Hermione, Molly and others showed for people and the love Snape showed for Lily. In light of the character of Snape's love, I cannot be proud of or happy for Snape; I cannot look at the love he felt as something honorable. The most I can do is say that it gave him the bravery to spy on Voldemort for 3.5 years and that was good - a couple of the things he did for Dumbledore were good too, but not all. And that it caused him to move from Voldemort to Dumbledore as leader was also good. Everything else the love caused Snape to do was despicable, imo. Further, the tenor (or character) of the love itself was not good in the least little bit to me. That it was unrequited was fine. But the other characteristics of it were horrible, imo, (selfish, obessive, posseive and engendering hatred).

I am being completely and 100% honest with you about how I feel. And I am not basing it on some 'fanciful imaginings'. Everything I feel about Snape's character is based solidly on some canon from the books as I interpreted it(unless I state otherwise) - and I am happy to explain with canon anything above you don't think can be supported by the canon.

I dearly hope I've been clear enough here... half an hour... What else is worth this?!

My response took 1.5 hours (but I did stop to do a ton of things in between writing). . But I had two double classes today, so it was nice to take my mind off of that maddness for a while.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Thanks. I do agree for the most part with your chronology. But I will insert a couple of facts I feel you left out that change the conclusion for me to some degree.

Good. I actually am looking forward to it!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

This is where the first assumption comes in that I may disagree with. I say 'may' because I am not sure what you mean exactly. I feel it very possible that Eileen was caught up with and impressed by Voldemort early on. However, whatever she believed about all of that, like you said, she married a muggle. Now I find it tremendously hard that she would be full support behind Voldemort, who is so disdainful against muggles. So while I think she may have been proud of her pure blood heritage, not to the degree of say Lucius who would have decapitated himself before marrying a muggle. So her view on muggles was clearly less than disdainful and hateful which is what we see with Death Eaters in the main (granted to varying degrees).

Yep. That's exactly what I mean. She didn't throw full support behind him, but she likely did at least look into it. And as proud as she was of her heritage, she did marry a muggle. We're definitely missing a part of the story here. What made her marry him? It's arguably true that she really and truly fell for him and left perhaps the extremism associated with Voldemort behind. But when the marriage began to go sour, I would assume that she felt a bit vindictive again.

Snape was born, things got cold, the fighting started. It comes across that Tobias Snape knew about the magical elements to his family. He must have, because Severus Snape knew a lot about the wizarding world, so it must have been discussed. I imagine that Eileen was well capable of throwing snide remarks here and there in a fight, and I think at some stage she looked again at the Voldemort times. Her feelings towards Tobias could easily have run off on the young Severus, and Eileen herself likely threw words into the arena that Snape got to know and recognise. He seems to focus his dislike mostly on his father in that conversation with Lily.

In short, yes, her views were less extreme, and she married Tobias because she loved him. It was when the marriage went stale that she bandied words about and made smart comments that would have stuck in Snape's mind as a boy.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Missing facts: Either Eileen was into the dark arts, or she had library books about the dark arts - or some access to them that her son could also gain access to. Snape learned some dark curses prior to arriving at Hogwarts, so this is necessarily true. He could not even use magic legally before he went, but any thing he did would be put down to 'accidental magic' or Eileen would claim she'd done it. Nonetheless, Snape somehow learned some curses. I assume Sirius may have been exaggerating that he knew more than some 7th years, but even if it were just 2 or 3, he learned some.

Yep. That's also a feasible explanation. Either way, the beginnings of his prejudices he picked up on at home. From his mother, or from her books or papers or whatever she had lying around. We agree.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

At this point he may have become fascinated with the dark arts, it seems likely as in addition, he determined that he wanted to be in Slytherin house. Now I am inclined to say this was all his mum's influence because we saw that happen so much in canon. But his statement to Lily on the train, 'you better be in Slytherin' indicates he had a firm desire to be there himself, imo.

This, again, I feel we're missing tiny minor details on, but it's something we findamentally do agree on. It indicates that Snape must indeed have felt closer to his mother, to wish to be in the same House as she had been. If he had hated her (taking Sirius as an example, perhaps), he would have wanted it to be different. He was highly influenced by Eileen in these decisions. It does therefore show that yes, he always had the intention of being in Slytherin. Why would he not have? He probably knew very little of more democratic feelings towards Muggles. Since we figure his mother taught him those basics, that image of Slytherin on a pedestal for admiration is difficult to fight with. She would, of course, have told him hoe great it was. Also, he had little to compare it to. The only person he otherwise spoke to was Lily, who was ignorant of the Wizarding World until he arrived.

Finally, if others at Hogwarts were aware that Snape knew the curses upon arrival at Hogwarts, I cannot think of any reasonable way for them to know this unless he used them early on. Otherwise, it would be more reasonable to assume he learned them at Hogwarts from his older friends. Now this may not mean he used them on other children, although it could mean that - but, he could have just been showing them to his new housemates or something along those lines. Nonetheless, he somehow manifested this so others could know, imo. So these missing facts taken together show that Snape may have already had a fascination with the dark arts; knew some curses before arriving at Hogwarts and had a fervent desire to be in Slytherin. This may have been his mother's influence or some other influence (books or whatever).

It could mean, indeed, that he practiced on others. He was definitely no knight in shining armour. It could also be conjecture, kid's style. You know, makes sense. The dank kid is a dark wizard. Stereotyping, very generalised, but feasible. And indeed, he could have just shown them off to friends. he may well have had the dark streak, but I must hold out that this was a result of his mother giving him this view. There are further reasons that deal with his family, more in relation to your next statement..

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

This brings out another assumption. I agree Snape disliked his muggle father. However, it is an assumption to me to say that the muggle kids picked on him, imo. First, Snape disliked his dad and he apparently already knew the difference between Muggles and Wizards. His mum likely told him that the children in the neighborhood were muggles. So he ventures out in his odd, mix matched and overly large clothing and the kids likely laugh at the sight of him.

This was exactly what I'm talking about. He lived in a muggle area, and there are some further issues to be discussed too. Bear with me. In he memory Harry once saw, a hook nosed man is yelling at a woman while a boy with greasy hair sits in the corner and cries. It would seem obvious that this is Tobias yelling at Eileen, Snape bearing witness to the hurt. The passage also indicates that the woman is frightened. I have to suggest, mush though I dislike the idea, that this wasn't just a poor relationship, but perhaps an abusive one. It certainly fills in the gap as to why he detested his father and preferred his mother, despite the fact that they both screamed at each other. Awkward though it is, it fills a vital gap.

Also, the issue of his clothing. He is noted as looking "not well cared for", indicating either that the Snape's were either neglectful parents (which would also explain how he got into the dark arts, pure boredom and anger), or just plain caught in a poverty trap. The fact that they lived near a textile mill might indicate that Tobias worked there. Now, this is a bit far fetched, but in the 1960s, quite a few areas in Britain were actually hit with Depression resulting from closing mills. If you're to assume that JK Rowling knew this and used it as a backdrop, then the poverty looks likely, and his mother was a big part of his choices. It also could prove the idea that the marriage staled as a direct result of this tough time, but that is, entirely conjecture. Sensible, but it is pushing the bar out into real world terms.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I would agree, one could construe that as 'picking on him' - but it is something Snape could overcome if his attitude allowed him too.

Which it didn't. I admit this, and though I'm not really seeking an excuse, I can lay it down to the fact that he had seen quite enough bullying. And anyway, his mother had already (perhaps) told him they weren't worth his time. He believed her. One of his first bad choices in his chldhood that echoed outward.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

So based on experience, I know that it is not only kid's reactions to you, but your response that also determines the outcome of interaction. Snape, in canon, told Petunia that he wouldn't bother spying on her cuz she was nothing more than a muggle (paraphrased for meaning). So he apparently did not laugh at himself when he met the kids laughing at his clothes and disdaining of him for being on the wrong side of the tracks. He did not grin at them and show that he wanted to be one of them despite his differences. He may have just ran away and said nothing. But whatever his response, he didn't befriend, instead he isolated himself from the muggle kids. In doing so, if he continued to put himself in their presence, they would likely continue to laugh at him. But I have a real hard time as seeing that as "picking on him" if he was disdainful of them, yet kept going around them.

Well, I do actually see your point. That perhaps he could himself have done more to stop it. On a personal basis, from past experiences, I know that I would have done what he did and ran away, if that is what he did. Overall it made me more outspoken and benefited me. I don't take that kind of thing anymore, I don't believe in it. To this end, and feel free to contradict, you won't hurt my feelings as I would assume I won't hurt yours (btw, that guy sounds fantastically like a friend of mine!), I don't think anybody has a right to pick on someone else, for whatever reason or to whatever end. It's something I just do not do and something that, unless in genuine good spirited fun (obviously), I would not condone.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Little kids are not accepting of 'weird', that is just how it is. So you have to befriend them by showing them that under the wierd clothes, you are not weird. But the fact is, Snape was 'weird' because he believed himself different and better and so together with his clothes and attitude, he would become a werido to their young minds. It is not nice of kids to be that way, but they are.

Again, I entirely agree with you that this was what Snape thought and why he didn't compensate for his overall awkwardness in any way. But it doesn't justify making him feel awful .

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Note the distinction with Lily. Snape was weird when he approached her and her sister too. They marched right away from the weirdo. But Snape not only didn't give up and disdain Lily, he came out of his shell and found a way to befriend her, because he wanted to. He did not feel this way about the other muggle kids or the muggle Petunia. So that is what I mean by Snape's response to the situation being important. It was not Lily who was different (she ran away too and appeared to agree that Snape looked weird), but it was Snape who was different with her, imo.

We're agreed. He made bad decisions in his youth and didn't differentiate between people with any logical sense. But, and I will stick to this, there are two sides to this. He didn't particularly like the muggle children anyway, they laughed at him. And his mother had possibly told him they were inferior, and so this was why he rejected Lily. To this end, I do not think Severus Snape can truly be blamed for what he internalized. It was justified time and time again to him, by his mother. Why think otherwise? There was nobody else to teach him otherwise. There was no choice of things to internalize.


[QUOTEHe did not feel t]We don't know when Lily became aware they were all planning to join Voldemort. I would imagine they didn't even decide 1st year. Maybe 2nd year at the earliest. But Lily would not become aware of this; all that we know she knew about Snape was that he was interested in the dark arts as were his friends and they did things she did not like (calling others Mudblood, using dark curses, etc.) By 5th year, we know Lily knew Snape's buddies were all going to join. But she admitted she was "pretending" with Snape. She had convinced herself that he was not like them, despite his showing otherwise in his behavior and beliefs (dark arts fascination, use of dark curses and calling others mudblood.) She claimed she had been making excuses for him for years for these things. I imagine it was to say that Snape's friends influenced him but "he wasn't really like them".[/quote]

Yep. All agreed with you there. She tried to justify his poor decision making for years, but she couldn't do it any longer.


[QUOTEHe did not feel t]Snape was unpopular. He came in doing curses and adopted the habit of calling others mudblood. He was also fascinated with the dark arts, something that was known about him ('up to his ears in the dark arts) and the reason that Sirius said James didn't like him. Now it is very difficult for me personally to understand Snape as the victim of "everyone" disliking him, calling him names, bullying him and humiliating him for no reason at all. He had 4 specific enemies that we know of, and they would of course follow that pattern (as he would against them) - but I feel he was unpopular because of what he did and said and the people he hung around. [/quote]

Yep. . Definitely not a good kid or a pleasant guy. Quiet, perhaps, but not at all endearing.

[QUOTEHe did not feel t]Now Snape also had poor hygiene, which was another reason kids wouldn't take to him - but they would just ignore him over that, so he would be an outcast perhaps in any case. And there may have been some of that going on, even with his own housemates to some extent. But his friends and those he hung around, were all budding Death Eaters, all "outcasts" in that light. Snape would just have this extra added bit to his outcastedness. (is that a word? )[/quote]

It is now! I agree that indeed he was more and more marginalised, entirely as a result of his own choices and decisions. I don't defend that, but I do understand where it all came from.

So we arrive at your conclusion. Based on what I have said; I agree that Snape had many influences, good (Lily, and those other students who were just 'good') as well as bad (his dad, those in his dangerous gang). I do not agree that he is justified slightly anymore than anyone else.

We are 90% in agreeement. Here is where 5 percent of it is. I think he had more bad influences than good in his early life, when a person is at their most "influencable" (see, I made up a word too... ). His mother, his father, the Muggle Kids, in direct juxtaposition with Lily, arguably the only friend he made. I just think it lacks balance and came too late.

For example, Mulciber too had influences that lead to his poor decision to become a death eater. ALL of those who became Death Eaters could be similarly justified. ALL of those who became Order Members could claim similar justifications for their choices too. So to me it doesn't stand to give Snape some kind of "highlighted justification" for his poor choices anymore than it does anyone else. Influence is one thing, but Snape in the end, had to make choices - just like everyone else.

Yep. He made his own choices. His own decisions, and I think he answered for them in the worst possible way. Stuck forever in a life he never truly chose. Half monk half assassin. Noone to love, to be with, no real life to lead. Stuck in the shadows to protect a boy whose father had often bullied Snape for fun. And that can't be justified for James either. To him, it was just fun. The fact that this affected Snape for the rest of his life indicates that the bullying really and truly did get to him, even from Sirius, who was not the one who won Lily. The entire system of bad treatment affected him mentally for a long time. He was still vindictive in the 90s, almost twenty years down the line.

There is a reason for this too. Snape had never been taught forgiveness or the value of it. His parents didn't forgive or forget, his friends didn't forgive or forget, his original master didn't forgive or forget.

Sirius could have been a formidable Death Eater. But he chose to become an Order Member instead. It came down to a choice and he had a lot of good reasons to go the other way from when he was a child. His mentality was reckless and a bit dangerous. I mean he was all set. But he went the other way. It was a choice, despite the bad influences - because he allowed the good influences to rule his choice, imo.

Absolutely. It's a mildly contrasting image. But I do see many of the same traits in them. Bullies, vindictive, cruel. But again, we actually know more about Snape and his family. I cannot explain with any canon whatsoever why Sirius chose to be different. Nor can I accept that "he just did". There are always reasons, I just don't know these ones. There might be a reference, do you know one by any chance?

But you know what? All we know for sure is that SWM happened; there were other fights (we don't know who started them), there was hexing in 7th that Snape started solely against James and he retaliated; and we know that Snape created a dark curse "for enemies" (the Marauders) and it became his specialty at Hogwarts. That is the only canon we have. So for me, it was not a matter of someone having "power in attacking" - but rather power in less objective forms. For example: James: Quidditch hero, popularity, Lily, v. Snape: unpopular, lack of athleticism, no Lily. This at various times at Hogwarts. So Snape may have seen these things as power, but the 'power' had nothing to do with their fighting, because if Snape whipped out Sectumsempra, who has the power then?

I concede that this wasn't really the power I meant. Imeant in the more general sense, despite everything he had been told and taught, that they were inferior to him, and that he had nothing to desire or wish for from them, Snape actually found himself envious, greedy and possessed by desire and jealousy. That, to me, grants them huge power, not in the physical sense, but in Snape's head.

So Snape could have gone for Dumbledore for power right from the bat, but he chose not to do so.

I honestly don't think it even struck him. That went against every testament he had heard, everything that had been pushed into him since childhood, every single iota of knowledge in his head pointed elsewhere, and yes, this was due to his own choices. But I think he was so demented in seeking power that he forgot what it was. It didn't strike him at all that he stood a better chance with her out of the Death Eaters. In this way, I do consider him a victim of circumstance. He should have been able to break free, but I imagine the safe feeling of backup, unknown to him before Hogwarts, prevented that. He was certainly not unintelligent, but rather misconstrued the entire thing, from the bottom up.

I don't see Snape as grey. I used to say I did. But I think if I saw him as grey, I would agree with you. But when I consider all of the things he did before his turn; AND all of the things he did while on the good side; it does not add up to a middling position of grey. It adds up to a very, very dark grey, tettering on black. So I do not agree with that take.

But it's still a shade of grey. And as long as you believe him to be in a shade of grey, that means that we will always partway agree. It's tiny personal inklings that prevent us agreeing. I consider Sirius to be a grey character, light grey, but grey. There are so few of them, but Snape is definitely the one I classify as nearest middling. Aside from the fact that we've now been at this for four hours between us (for which we both deserve a medal), and that we will continue it as long as we can, we still do not entirely agree, despite each of us understanding the others points and views. As for why I see him as being that grey...It's below this quote.

The most I can do is say that it gave him the bravery to spy on Voldemort for 3.5 years and that was good - a couple of the things he did for Dumbledore were good too, but not all. And that it caused him to move from Voldemort to Dumbledore as leader was also good. Everything else the love caused Snape to do was despicable, imo. That it was unrequited was fine. But the other characteristics of it were horrible, imo, (selfish, obessive, posseive and engendering hatred).

And that is exactly why I see him as a middling grey. He worshipped the ground she walked on. It almost drove him insane. There was nothing he could do and no way to win, but to give his worthless life to watching over someone with a value system much more honorable than his own. He saw in Harry Potter only what he expected to see- a chrome copy of his father, untrue though this was. But he did give that life. He was so selfish and so arrogant that all he ever cared about was himself, yes?

Then to me, he did make a huge sacrifice. He gave up the thing he loved most- himself- to try to atone for his decisions. The comprehension came too late.

I am being completely and 100% honest with you about how I feel. And I am not basing it on some 'fanciful imaginings'. Everything I feel about Snape's character is based solidly on some canon from the books as I interpreted it(unless I state otherwise) - and I am happy to explain with canon anything above you don't think can be supported by the canon

I completely reciprocate on that. I imagine, in fact I know, we will always disagree about this. But each time we talk it through, we find something else. There's no definitive answer, just discussion. I ardently respect your view, it's certainly not a pariah opinion. I'd be a fool to pass it off as nothing. This has come down to us being quite frank about old experiences and that shows one thing above all others.

J K Rowling sure knows how to write an enigma. Snape's a character you can identify with, but only in doses, and what those sections are define your view of him.

You know, I could write a dissertation on Snape.
I realise this is maddeningly long, but take your time if you're going to reply. I have to sleep!! It's six am. I dearly hope this all makes sense. And don't moan if some of it doesn't, remember what time it as when I wrote it, right?

Best conversation I've had all night, quite frankly.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Absolutely. It's a mildly contrasting image. But I do see many of the same traits in them. Bullies, vindictive, cruel. But again, we actually know more about Snape and his family. I cannot explain with any canon whatsoever why Sirius chose to be different. Nor can I accept that "he just did". There are always reasons, I just don't know these ones. There might be a reference, do you know one by any chance?

Canon is that Sirius was less isolated than Sev. He had an extemded family with which he is known to have socialized, and it included members his mother ended up disowning for having views contrary to her Pureblood views. This included an uncle who left him an inheritance, and a favorite cousin who became a "blood traitor". It is reasonable to suppose these contrary influences to his mother were present throughout his life, even in early childhood. So there is a contrast of circumstances between the two charactes as well as one of outcome.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Good. I actually am looking forward to it!

As was I . I've left out the paragraphs that I agree with.

This, again, I feel we're missing tiny minor details on, but it's something we findamentally do agree on. It indicates that Snape must indeed have felt closer to his mother, to wish to be in the same House as she had been. If he had hated her (taking Sirius as an example, perhaps), he would have wanted it to be different. He was highly influenced by Eileen in these decisions. It does therefore show that yes, he always had the intention of being in Slytherin. Why would he not have? He probably knew very little of more democratic feelings towards Muggles. Since we figure his mother taught him those basics, that image of Slytherin on a pedestal for admiration is difficult to fight with. She would, of course, have told him hoe great it was. Also, he had little to compare it to. The only person he otherwise spoke to was Lily, who was ignorant of the Wizarding World until he arrived.

I would elaborate to add that his 'comparisons' were likely negative ones. That is, I think his mother likely told him of the house system (otherwise he would not realize he and Lily had a choice of houses.) But in as much as his mum (or he independently) felt Slytherin was the best; he'd also decided the other houses were not where he wished to go. I would add that his disparaging noise made when James mentioned Gryffindor was indicative that he'd already gained as much prejudice for that house as James had for Slytherin. This we see with all of the kids though; Ron, Draco, the Twins - all came along wanting Gryffindor or Slytherin and disdaining the other house. I feel the parents (inlcuding Snape's) engendered their dislike for the rival house because how else would they take that view? And again, Snape could have read about it rather than heard it from Eileen, but JKR was pretty consistent with the parent's influence thing.

It could mean, indeed, that he practiced on others. He was definitely no knight in shining armour. It could also be conjecture, kid's style. You know, makes sense. The dank kid is a dark wizard. Stereotyping, very generalised, but feasible. And indeed, he could have just shown them off to friends. he may well have had the dark streak, but I must hold out that this was a result of his mother giving him this view. There are further reasons that deal with his family, more in relation to your next statement..

Well I agree - but in as much as Lucius gave Draco his view - or Arthur gave Ron his. And kids often take on the values of their parents in just that way.

This was exactly what I'm talking about. He lived in a muggle area, and there are some further issues to be discussed too. Bear with me. In he memory Harry once saw, a hook nosed man is yelling at a woman while a boy with greasy hair sits in the corner and cries. It would seem obvious that this is Tobias yelling at Eileen, Snape bearing witness to the hurt. The passage also indicates that the woman is frightened. I have to suggest, mush though I dislike the idea, that this wasn't just a poor relationship, but perhaps an abusive one. It certainly fills in the gap as to why he detested his father and preferred his mother, despite the fact that they both screamed at each other. Awkward though it is, it fills a vital gap.

I don't remember Eileen showing fright - was it the language used? I will look it up if you don't remember. If that was the case, I would agree there was likely abuse going on. But there was at least verbal abuse and it obviously had a great impact on Snape, he was in the corner crying. That kind of thing is emotionally dreadful for a child. I have always said that Snape's home life was miserable in that regard.

Also, the issue of his clothing. He is noted as looking "not well cared for", indicating either that the Snape's were either neglectful parents (which would also explain how he got into the dark arts, pure boredom and anger), or just plain caught in a poverty trap. The fact that they lived near a textile mill might indicate that Tobias worked there. Now, this is a bit far fetched, but in the 1960s, quite a few areas in Britain were actually hit with Depression resulting from closing mills. If you're to assume that JK Rowling knew this and used it as a backdrop, then the poverty looks likely, and his mother was a big part of his choices. It also could prove the idea that the marriage staled as a direct result of this tough time, but that is, entirely conjecture. Sensible, but it is pushing the bar out into real world terms.

Well I think the idea they were poor is a given. The clothes don't do it for me because all wizards dress weird and Eileen may have done it to spite her husband. But it is more likely that they simply couldn't afford new clothes and he wore his parent's handme downs, mostly not fitting well. They lived on 'the wrong side of the tracks' which usually means poor. And also, Snape had at least one of his mum's old books, maybe more, likely to save money in as far as buying them. That particular book (HBP) wouldn't be needed for some time, but I would imagine, not having much money, things that could be passed down would be like in the Weasley household.

Which it didn't. I admit this, and though I'm not really seeking an excuse, I can lay it down to the fact that he had seen quite enough bullying. And anyway, his mother had already (perhaps) told him they weren't worth his time. He believed her. One of his first bad choices in his chldhood that echoed outward.

Well, I do actually see your point. That perhaps he could himself have done more to stop it. On a personal basis, from past experiences, I know that I would have done what he did and ran away, if that is what he did. Overall it made me more outspoken and benefited me. I don't take that kind of thing anymore, I don't believe in it. To this end, and feel free to contradict, you won't hurt my feelings as I would assume I won't hurt yours (btw, that guy sounds fantastically like a friend of mine!), I don't think anybody has a right to pick on someone else, for whatever reason or to whatever end. It's something I just do not do and something that, unless in genuine good spirited fun (obviously), I would not condone.

This is where I often lose people in conversation regarding Snape's young life. Kids laugh at other kids when they look weird. That is just what they do. That is not a justification at all - it is a fact of life. You have maybe 20% of all kids who are total goody-two shoes (a guess for an example) - and then you have another 65% - the majority - who are going to do things that are considered, bad, wrong and irrational.

Kids steal from the cookie jar; they use their father's tools or try flying down the stairs like superman, or draw on the television set, or pull their sister's hair; and girls too, they test their mother's face makeup stuff and lots of the same little stuff boys do. ALL of this is wrong or bad or nuts, none of it is justified because "all kids do it" - but it is a fact of life that we have to accept, like it or not. That includes making fun of other kids, especially weird ones (but not only weird ones). That includes putting salt in your friends lemonaid, calling your neighbor you don't like (for god knows what ridiculous reason) a bug face because his nose is flat. And then there are 15% that get into crazier mischief - setting their sister's hair on fire or busting out windows in the house and the like.

Kids from ALL of these groups grow up and grow out of the behavior, from the goody two shoes (who may go bad or stay good) to the horrible little delinquent kids (who may go good or get worse) to the majority (who may go whatever ). You get the picture. So in stating how kids are, I am not justifying their behavior at all. I am just saying what happens and what Snape likely faced from muggles. So his response is what would be important here because the kids are going to act like kids unless he runs into a bunch of goody two shoes (which it doesn't sound like he did - not to mention there are only usually a couple in every neighborhood ) And again, Snape could respond distinctly if he wanted to. He proved that with Lily. He was willing with her because she was 'magic' - well that was his perogative, but he had to face the taunting and laughter of the other kids if he wasn't willing to make that effort with them. That doesn't make the other kids right, they should ALL be goody two shoes, but alas, that is not how the world is.

Again, I entirely agree with you that this was what Snape thought and why he didn't compensate for his overall awkwardness in any way. But it doesn't justify making him feel awful .

Right as I explained above, it is not about justification, it is about facts of life. And also, Snape was a little boy too - we are not talking about Snape being culpable here for reacting to the children like he did. His response was not about justifiication either - it is simply the way some kids respond. Snape had the added problem of his mum's (or books) influence which made him look down on those kids - and when he first ventured out, he may have thought to give them a chance. But the moment they laughed, apparently his feelings about Muggles kicked in and his response was not to befriend - or even try. Again - only with those kids cuz they were muggles - but with Lily he was willing to put effort into befriending her, despite her initial disdainful response to him.

We are 90% in agreeement. Here is where 5 percent of it is. I think he had more bad influences than good in his early life, when a person is at their most "influencable" (see, I made up a word too... ). His mother, his father, the Muggle Kids, in direct juxtaposition with Lily, arguably the only friend he made. I just think it lacks balance and came too late.

Originally Posted by Zgirnius: Canon is that Sirius was less isolated than Sev. He had an extemded family with which he is known to have socialized, and it included members his mother ended up disowning for having views contrary to her Pureblood views. This included an uncle who left him an inheritance, and a favorite cousin who became a "blood traitor". It is reasonable to suppose these contrary influences to his mother were present throughout his life, even in early childhood. So there is a contrast of circumstances between the two charactes as well as one of outcome.

But then how do I justify Sirius? Like Zara (whose quote is also there), I figured he had good influences of his aunt and uncle. But the thing is, if Andromeda was prattling off a bunch of anti-Black beliefs, they would not have her over much, nor would they approve of either of their children going to her home. So she couldn't have been around all that much. And as for his uncle; Sirius was surprised that his uncle had left him money. So he couldn't have had a great relationship with him or the legacy would have been understandable to him. In any case, he certainly was inculcated with more negative beliefs (defined Slytherin/Voldemort/pureblood ideologies) than anything else. So environment is not entirely relevant - although it is to some degree as we see Sirius had a recklessness and a dangerous attitude at times. But he was also a rebel and that may have played into it also.

My only point is that while Snape had a bad influence at home in that respect, he also didn't have whatever spark Sirius had (rebel or whatever) that would make him choose a house other than Slytherin (he's like Draco in that regard). As such, he becomes surrounded by people who are thinking like him at that time. While that would influence him; his beliefs and such would influence those he was around too (his housemates). So it was like a two-way (or multiway) influence. Contrast Sirius who did not want to be surrounded by those people (like his parents) and so he wasn't. So even with the influences, there is something autonomous still going on there in my view, that also works as a determining factor.

Yep. He made his own choices. His own decisions, and I think he answered for them in the worst possible way. Stuck forever in a life he never truly chose. Half monk half assassin. Noone to love, to be with, no real life to lead. Stuck in the shadows to protect a boy whose father had often bullied Snape for fun. And that can't be justified for James either. To him, it was just fun.

It is funny because I used to think of Harry's parents collectively as "his parents"; but after the books, I have suddenly found myself defending them so much, I feel like I am their biggest fans individually. . And the truth is, I am not, except in terms of them being Harry's parents.

But here again I would have to disagree. Here is my view which is important so you know where I am coming from with respect to Snape's development: James hexed people for fun he was a prankster - he'd do all that George and Fred did. Hex to make people's heads grow (eh-hem, Harry and the toe nails, ring a bell?), hex hair all over someone's body, etc. It was for a laugh and he grew out of that as most kids we saw did (unless they were Fred and George and made a business out of it ). That we learn in OOTP. In addition, he'd hex people that molest him; this is if you called him a pansy, he'd make your head grow, but that was not entirely for fun because there was an element of revenge involved (eh-hem, Hermione punching Draco in the nose, ring a bell?). That we learn in OOTP SWM when Lily yells it at him (hex people that molest you). So James is not alone in this behavior, but he did do it.

Now we get to Snape. I have no idea why it is thought that James hexed Snape purely for fun. They were enemies - dire enemies. Snape created a spell marked "for enemies" - James threatened to pants him in addition to levicorpus - Snape hexed James every opportunity in 7th - and James never took it lying down. Sirius told us in OOTP that one reason James disliked Snape was because he was 'up to his ears in the dark arts' - well that is all the outward behavior Snape did in that regard and the things he said ('mudblood') and such. JKR told us that James thought Snape liked Lily, and despite the fact that their relationship never went anywhere, Snape's merely liking the same girl he fancied, and being friends with her, played into his feelings about Snape. Remus remarked to Sirius, 'did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?' - meaning they had encounters beyond SWM. Snape followed them around trying to get them in trouble and followed Lupin specifically. This was a full blown enemyship! (my new word for the post )

Knowing all of that, can you really say that James hexed Snape merely for fun? He wasn't feeling very 'fun' inside, imo. And I don't think Snape hexed James for "fun" either. That was not what was going on there to me. There was much more to it. Even in SWM, we see James and Sirius talking about starting up things with Snape; there was nothing "fun" about the way they approached the situation. They weren't laughing and joking and deciding which spell they might use for a bit of careless 'fun'. It was overtly clear to me that they saw Snape as their enemy and fully intended to start things up with a boy they strongly disliked. While the spells James used were "funny" - he wasn't doing it merely because issuing some spell would be fun. He was doing it because issuing a spell against Snape was desired. "Fun" imo, does not include having vindictive feelings and strong dislike pulsing through your body while your having it. "Fun" is relaxing, enjoyable and having a good time. So I would disagree on that basis. To me, this was not just for fun, nor because Snape molested him once - this was dislike and an ongoing feud for James (and Snape as well), imo.

The fact that this affected Snape for the rest of his life indicates that the bullying really and truly did get to him, even from Sirius, who was not the one who won Lily. The entire system of bad treatment affected him mentally for a long time. He was still vindictive in the 90s, almost twenty years down the line.

Here you lose me too. Sirius too was involved (although I didn't speak in terms of him, with the exception of the feelings about Lily, I felt he was similar to James). Sirius held onto his grudge against Snape on into adulthood just as Snape did against him (and James). Thus, Snape's bullying really did get to him also, affecting him the rest of his life. It affected him mentally for a long time - he was also still vindictive nearly 20 years down the line. Thus where are we at with this reasoning? Unless Sirius was faking it (which I don't believe he was), then he had as much to feel vindictive about regarding the past as Snape did. Sirius didn't constantly deride Snape out of the blue with Harry (meaning only when Snape came up did he do that), so we didn't get to know all of his background feelings about Snape. But Snape did do this, he brought up James a lot - and by inference Sirius, so we understand how he was thinking. Nonetheless, their feelings were mutual at that late date - so I have a hard time understanding the idea that Snape had it any worse then Sirius at Hogwarts with respect to their ongoing feud.

I concede that this wasn't really the power I meant. Imeant in the more general sense, despite everything he had been told and taught, that they were inferior to him, and that he had nothing to desire or wish for from them, Snape actually found himself envious, greedy and possessed by desire and jealousy. That, to me, grants them huge power, not in the physical sense, but in Snape's head.

That is what I referred to as well. We agree.

I honestly don't think it even struck him. That went against every testament he had heard, everything that had been pushed into him since childhood, every single iota of knowledge in his head pointed elsewhere, and yes, this was due to his own choices. But I think he was so demented in seeking power that he forgot what it was. It didn't strike him at all that he stood a better chance with her out of the Death Eaters. In this way, I do consider him a victim of circumstance. He should have been able to break free, but I imagine the safe feeling of backup, unknown to him before Hogwarts, prevented that. He was certainly not unintelligent, but rather misconstrued the entire thing, from the bottom up.

Right, I don't think he considered it either - or he considered and rejected it. But my only point was that it was there for him to see. His response to seeing it would be his decision. Same with Lily and "John Doe good boy of Hogwarts". All the influences that surrounded Snape at Hogwarts that were good - these are the ones that he had to choose to ignore, imo.

And that is exactly why I see him as a middling grey. He worshipped the ground she walked on. It almost drove him insane. There was nothing he could do and no way to win, but to give his worthless life to watching over someone with a value system much more honorable than his own. He saw in Harry Potter only what he expected to see- a chrome copy of his father, untrue though this was. But he did give that life. He was so selfish and so arrogant that all he ever cared about was himself, yes?

Then to me, he did make a huge sacrifice. He gave up the thing he loved most- himself- to try to atone for his decisions. The comprehension came too late.

Well I respect your view, but I don't agree that he "gave up" himself altogether. He would have gone to Azkaban if it weren't for Dumbledore, so he exchanged Azkaban for working at Hogwarts and helping Dumbledore. That was not a decision that was his to make and so he didn't really give up himself in that light. Not many people would have chosen Azkaban instead, imo... It did mean he was not literally free to do as he wanted and so he did lose a part of himself there, but it wasn't 'given' imo.

If you think about it, Bella and the DEs were still in prison when Voldemort returned. Hence, Snape would have been also. So when Snape said he didn't "run" like Kardakoff, it is true; but if he had, he'd of had 2 people looking for him: Voldemort AND Dumbledore. Neither very happy campers. And we saw that Kardakoff (I may be misspelling that) got killed in the end for trying to run. So again, Snape had no choice but to spy as Dumbledore wanted. That is why I remain unconvinced about the "dutiful Snape" point of view. He was brave to do it and it was a good thing, but he had no choice in the matter.

Best conversation I've had all night, quite frankly.

Ditto.

[hg123]

So again, Snape had no choice but to spy as Dumbledore wanted. That is why I remain unconvinced about the "dutiful Snape" point of view. He was brave to do it and it was a good thing, but he had no choice in the matter.

But this is only true prior to Dumbledore's death. After Dumbledore died, Snape had all choice in the world, in fact, it would have been easier for him to return to Voldemort's side. Everybody on the good side believed him to be a traitor and hated him, while Voldemort rewarded him and gave him the job of the Headmaster. Also, Voldie had taken over the Wizarding World, and the bad guys seemed to have won. It would have been very easy for Snape to completely return to their side, and the only reason he didn't, could have been out of duty for Lily and Dumbledore.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Sirius held onto his grudge against Snape on into adulthood just as Snape did against him (and James). Thus, Snape's bullying really did get to him also, affecting him the rest of his life. It affected him mentally for a long time - he was also still vindictive nearly 20 years down the line. Thus where are we at with this reasoning? Unless Sirius was faking it (which I don't believe he was), then he had as much to feel vindictive about regarding the past as Snape did.

bold mine

Where in canon is it given that Snape bullied Sirius so much that Sirius was deeply wounded/affected and he could not get over the hate he had for Snape ?

I always thought that Sirius had that hatred for Snape, because of James and because Snape was a Slytherin. Sirius took James's side in the fight for Lily IMO. I am begining to think that Lily never allowed the Marauders talk ill of Snape nor hex him (while in School, for they may not have met each other later), so I think James was quite jealous of Snape and Sirius hated Snape for James. And it continued all his (Sirius's) life IMO.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Where in canon is it given that Snape bullied Sirius so much that Sirius was deeply wounded/affected and he could not get over the hate he had for Snape ?

Canon actually implies that it was the other way around.

I agree, Priya, that Sirius disliked Snape and treated him the way he did even into adulthood because Snape was a Slytherin. Though I dont think I agree with your expansion of that idea.

I've mentioned this on the Sirius thread, but my view is that Snape became to Sirius a symbol of the family he detested. Snape was not only a Slytherin, but also held the same views. So when Sirius needed an outlet for his rage at the family, Snape was handy.

When they become adults, things change. Being stuck in his childhood home, Sirius grows restless and angry. He wants to fight a DE. IMO, in his mind, he creates that DE he can lash out at in the form of Snape. That's why he refuses to trust him: if he does, he can no longer pick a fight and has to once again sit at home stewing in bad memories.


ETA: Wow, my computer went crazy on me halfway through typing this post. I got the rest in, though.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ignisia

Canon actually implies that it was the other way around.

That's what I feel too.

I agree, Priya, that Sirius disliked Snape and treated him the way he did even into adulthood because Snape was a Slytherin. Though I dont think I agree with your expansion of that idea.

I got on to this kind of thinking, mainly because we don't see Sirius, who hated Slytherin and all that he thought that House stood for, attacking Avery and Mulciber, who were actually doing what he ran away from his home to escape. Practising dark magic. Sirius thought his family was the darkest ever, and yet there is no mention that he went after Slytherins in general (Avery, Mulciber, Regulus, Lucius and so on, though Lucius would have left Hogwarts 2-3 years after Snape and Sirius started School) or he went after those who practised the dark arts IMO.

We know Sirius hated Snape, we know he loved James and I just presumed he took James's side. James, once he fell for Lily, I think took the hex wars to a different level, with Sirius by his side and Remus and Peter as support, and Snape rose to same level, when he realised James fancied Lily and his anger and jealousy must have grown when he suspected lily to also fancy James IMO.

I also assumed Lily did not speak much about Snape and also did not encourage the Marauders to hex Snape or make fun of him in her presence, because Sirius once he escapes Azkaban (in GOF especially) does not know anything at all about Snape. Which he should have had lily been open with the Marauders about her relationship with Snape IMO.

Secondly in OOTP, Sirius says that Lily never knew about their hex wars (james never took Snape on dates), implying that she would not have approved IMO.

That told me 2 things. One it was not defence most of the times when they met Snape, because then all they had to tell Lily was that they only retaliated not attacked; she would not have been able to say anything, and second they knew nothing about Snape and lily's friendship, which was why the hex wars never abated even in their 7th year IMO.

James was jealous because Lily would probably not laugh at what a greasy git Snape was, even after she broke off with him, and Snape was jealous because James had won Lily's heart, something he had failed to do IMO.

I've mentioned this on the Sirius thread, but my view is that Snape became to Sirius a symbol of the family he detested. Snape was not only a Slytherin, but also held the same views. So when Sirius needed an outlet for his rage at the family, Snape was handy.

I think this is also possible.

[Yoana]

Maybe they just disliked each other instantly (on that train) and this dislike, fuelled by their Houses' rivalry and opposing sides in the emerging war, magnified and became integral part of their characters. Of course Severus believing Sirius to be the cause of Lily's death must have turned the dislike into full-blown hatred - and this rarely changes back.

[The_Green_Woods]

I think that train meeting was more for James/Snape than for Snape/Sirius, though Snape/Sirius also did not get off on the right foot. The first thing we see there is how James looked well cared for, even adored, unlike Snape and that James and Snape did not get along with each other from their very first meeting, and at the same time James and Sirius hit off from the moment they saw each other IMO.

This dislike proabably turned into hatred when James fell for Lily. Sirius hated Snape because he was a Slytherin and because he was friends with Lily, whom James loved and also because James hated and was jealous of Snape IMO.