Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I've left out the paragraphs that I agree with.

Ditto. We don't want to be here all day now, do we?

I would elaborate to add that his 'comparisons' were likely negative ones....... I feel the parents (inlcuding Snape's) engendered their dislike for the rival house because how else would they take that view? And again, Snape could have read about it rather than heard it from Eileen, but JKR was pretty consistent with the parent's influence thing.

Yep, I agree with all of that for sure. And she was pretty consistent, so at least we agree that Eileen did play a huge role in engendering a prejudice that stayed with Snape for the best part of 20 odd years.

I don't remember Eileen showing fright - was it the language used? I will look it up if you don't remember. If that was the case, I would agree there was likely abuse going on. But there was at least verbal abuse and it obviously had a great impact on Snape, he was in the corner crying.

Took me ages to find this... "A hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner". I take the idea that she was scared from the word "cowering, and I do think that it's a fair analysis.

Well I think the idea they were poor is a given. The clothes don't do it for me because all wizards dress weird and Eileen may have done it to spite her husband. But it is more likely that they simply couldn't afford new clothes and he wore his parent's handme downs, mostly not fitting well. They lived on 'the wrong side of the tracks' which usually means poor. And also, Snape had at least one of his mum's old books, maybe more, likely to save money in as far as buying them. That particular book (HBP) wouldn't be needed for some time, but I would imagine, not having much money, things that could be passed down would be like in the Weasley household.

With you on all of this paragraph too. It does indicate to me though, that he was doubly vindictive in light of his own circumstances. The Muggle kids could laugh and point, and despite the fact that he was raised to feel superior to them, they had it all and he had nothing. I understand his long lives bitterness in this regard.

This is where I often lose people in conversation regarding Snape's young life. Kids laugh at other kids when they look weird. That is just what they do. That is not a justification at all - it is a fact of life.

It is a fact of life that we have to accept, like it or not. That includes making fun of other kids, especially weird ones (but not only weird ones)

So you figure that Snape just should have moved on and accepted the entire thing? I rather think that would amount to losing face and abjectly giving in, which is something he really didn't want to do. He did go about making himself feel better in the wrong way, but I do think that he is justified in doing this as a result of every bad things that happened. We have pointed out that there are more than one or two. Even in the real world, horrible statistic though this is, one in eight abused children because abusers themselves. I think that stands up quite well here, and though it's not "justification" in terms of me thinking that it's alright, because it isn't, it does provide a justified answer as to why he did turn out this way. See where I'm coming from? It's not that I think what he did was forgiveable or alright. It's a different justification.

And again, Snape could respond distinctly if he wanted to. He proved that with Lily. He was willing with her because she was 'magic' - well that was his perogative, but he had to face the taunting and laughter of the other kids if he wasn't willing to make that effort with them.

I'll add weight and argument to this. I agree with you quite completely, but I think that Lily was quite the exception to his thinking. Arguably, she was the first magical child he knew, and this explains why he chose to go along with her. But I had to suggest that perhaps this was also Snape's first crush. He fancied the pants off of her! I think that this confused and intrigued him, likely as it did the rest of us at that age, and I argue that even had it been a muggle he had fallen for, his attitude might have changed. It was a very important turning point. He was always quite careful not to reveal the worst of himself around her. Sure, they had small tiffs and fights, but they both moved on from it. He rarely used the word "mudblood", and he chose to hurt Petunia (if he did, and I do think he did), because she disapproved of him being with Lily, the one person he actually adored. He also associated with Petunia his anti Muggle feelings.

But then how do I justify Sirius? Like Zara (whose quote is also there), I figured he had good influences of his aunt and uncle. But the thing is, if Andromeda was prattling off a bunch of anti-Black beliefs, they would not have her over much, nor would they approve of either of their children going to her home. So she couldn't have been around all that much. And as for his uncle; Sirius was surprised that his uncle had left him money. So he couldn't have had a great relationship with him or the legacy would have been understandable to him. In any case, he certainly was inculcated with more negative beliefs (defined Slytherin/Voldemort/pureblood ideologies) than anything else. So environment is not entirely relevant - although it is to some degree as we see Sirius had a recklesness and a dangerous attitude at times. But he was also a rebel and that may have played into it also.

Though I do agree with you, I think Sirius would have seen more of Andromeda as a child. She was only disowned when she married Ted Tonks. I imagine before that she held her own within the family line. I agree that this isn't the biggest positive influence in the world, but I do imagine that he saw something in her attitude that he liked. It is stated that she was his favourite cousin.

But here again I would have to disagree. Here is my view which is important so you know where I am coming from with respect to Snape's development: James hexed people for fun he was a prankster - he'd do all that George and Fred did. Hex to make people's heads grow (eh-hem, Harry and the toe nails, ring a bell?), hex hair all over someone's body, etc. It was for a laugh and he grew out of that as most kids we saw did (unless they were Fred and George and made a business out of it ). That we learn in OOTP. In addition, he'd hex people that molest him; this is if you called him a pansy, he'd make your head grow, but that was not entirely for fun because there was an element of revenge involved (eh-hem, Hermione punching Draco in the nose, ring a bell?). That we learn in OOTP SWM when Lily yells it at him (hex people that molest you). So James is not alone in this behavior, but he did do it.

Now we get to Snape. I have no idea why it is thought that James hexed Snape purely for fun. They were enemies - dire enemies. Snape created a spell marked "for enemies" - James threatened to pants him in addition to levicorpus - Snape hexed James every opportunity in 7th - and James never took it lying down. Sirius told us in OOTP that one reason James disliked Snape was because he was 'up to his ears in the dark arts' - well that is all the outward behavior Snape did in that regard and the things he said ('mudblood') and such. JKR told us that James thought Snape liked Lily, and despite the fact that their relationship never went anywhere, Snape's merely liking the same girl he fancied, and being friends with her, played into his feelings about Snape. Remus remarked to Sirius, 'did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?' - meaning they had encounters beyond SWM. Snape followed them around trying to get them in trouble and followed Lupin specifically. This was a full blown enemyship! (my new word for the post )

Do I have to make a new word again so too?
This is basically where we come to disagree. James Potter was flawed too. It has been stated that he categorically hexed others, simply because he could.

I agree with you that they were dire enemies. But I blame that on James Potter. I know that there'll be outcry, but my reading of the canon is as follows. Severus Snape walked into a carriage on a train, sat with his best friend and said "You'd better be in Slytherin." James Potter interrupted, though it truly was none of his business since he knew neither Lily or Snape, and said "Slytherin? Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to Sirius. This proves that he was the person who was first both cruel and vindictive. Harry himself noticed that James came across as being well cared for, adored, and he immediately contrasted this with the conspicuousness that Snape did not share this good fortune. This is the moment when they became enemies.

Knowing all of that, can you really say that James hexed Snape merely for fun? He wasn't feeling very 'fun' inside, imo. And I don't think Snape hexed James for "fun" either. That was not what was going on there to me. There was much more to it.

In the sense of a big picture, no. They both did it because they disliked each other intensely, and were both entirely to blame for their own choices. But in the smaller picture sense, James did clearly get a sick pleasure out of doing it, and frequently appears to have done it when there was no necessity to defend himself, merely to add excitement to the situation, as we saw following their DADA OWL. James actually remarked to Sirius that things were going to get livelier, and he said it when he saw Snape. I'm sure Snape also highly enjoyed tormenting James, but something tells me that it wasn't so much for fun, but rather for vengeance and retribution, in the same way he hurt James Potter that day with a cutting curse. He would have been expelled if he used Dark Magic just for fun, and he would have known that and been careful. A few hexes here and there would have been okay, but dark curses would certainly have aroused suspicion, and from what we know, Snape was not a poor or uncooperative student.

Unless Sirius was faking it (which I don't believe he was), then he had as much to feel vindictive about regarding the past as Snape did. Sirius didn't constantly deride Snape out of the blue with Harry (meaning only when Snape came up did he do that), so we didn't get to know all of his background feelings about Snape. But Snape did do this, he brought up James a lot - and by inference Sirius, so we understand how he was thinking. Nonetheless, their feelings were mutual at that late date - so I have a hard time understanding the idea that Snape had it any worse then Sirius at Hogwarts with respect to their ongoing feud.

Ah, but Sirius wasn't humiliated in front of the girl he liked. That's the only difference. Sirius disliked Snape because Snape reminded him of his own family, and that stuck for life.

Right, I don't think he considered it either - or he considered and rejected it. But my only point was that it was there for him to see. His response to seeing it would be his decision. Same with Lily and "John Doe good boy of Hogwarts". All the influences that surrounded Snape at Hogwarts that were good - these are the ones that he had to choose to ignore, imo.

I do see where you get the idea from, truly I do. But I wonder are you underestimating the sheer influence the Death Eater crowd had. The chances are that they were a rather large clique, everybody knew about it. They were again the first people Snape met in school, the first people he got to know, and as a Slytherin, resulting from his mother's lessons in life, he thought himself superior to pretty much anybody else. I'm not sure that there was a lot of good influence in that group. Everybody else mingled, that group by definition didn't, so why would he? I know that it was his choice to, but it would never have occurred to him as a sensible option.

Well I respect your view, but I don't agree that he "gave up" himself altogether. He would have gone to Azkaban if it weren't for Dumbledore, so he exchanged Azkaban for working at Hogwarts and helping Dumbledore. That was not a decision that was his to make and so he didn't really give up himself in that light. Not many people would have chosen Azkaban instead, imo... It did mean he was not literally free to do as he wanted and so he did lose a part of himself there, but it wasn't 'given' imo.

You don't agree that he could have simply stayed with the death eaters? It was 1980 when he heard that prophecy (or late 79), and immediately he set about trying to make things better. He finally saw sense and went to Dumbledore, despite the fact that the thought of it terrified him, as we saw in the flashback section of the final book. It was entirely his decision to make. Indeed, if he were a true die hard, as all assumed, he would have been like Bellatrix and Barty Crouch Jr. He would have taken the term in Azkaban. So if you suggest that he wouldn't have, that indicates already that he had always had slight doubts, and that he did indeed make the choice to see Dumbledore. Nobody forced him down that path, it was the most unexpected thing he could have done. Equally, if he would have taken the terms in Azkaban, then he just as individually made the decision to meet Dumbledore. He gave his promise in 1981, November 1st, 1981, I think, that he would protect Harry Potter at all costs and always be loyal to Dumbledore. He did not have to do this. It was a choice he made consciously thinking about Lily Potter.

If you think about it, Bella and the DEs were still in prison when Voldemort returned. Hence, Snape would have been also. So when Snape said he didn't "run" like Kardakoff, it is true; but if he had, he'd of had 2 people looking for him: Voldemort AND Dumbledore. Neither very happy campers. And we saw that Kardakoff (I may be misspelling that) got killed in the end for trying to run. So again, Snape had no choice but to spy as Dumbledore wanted. That is why I remain unconvinced about the "dutiful Snape" point of view. He was brave to do it and it was a good thing, but he had no choice in the matter.

Yep, it's Karkaroff. But I know who you mean, which is the important thing. I don't see why Dumbledore would have been looking for him, or indeed, Voldemort. He called, Snape didn't come at first, and Voldemort doubted Snape's position. Dumbledore would have severed all ties, and decided that the best of Snape wasn't worth keeping. But true to his word, at the hardest time possible, Snape fulfilled this promise. He never had to. He could have ran and faced death, or he could have returned to Voldemort and taken punishment. If he had been a die hard Death Eater, a bit of punishment wouldn't have gone astray. I think he had every choice in the matter. If he hated it so much, why not be punished or die? It must have been just as difficult for him to stay with Dumbledore and act as a double agent, But he did maintain it,even when it became quite ridiculous.

To add to this, and as a testament to what he was willing to do, at the beginning of Deathly Hallows, it is shown that Snape is the one who blew of George's ear. If he were feeling even slightly vindictive, this would have made sense. But later we're shown that he was, in fact, aiming at the Death Eater's hand in front of him, who was trying to kill George. Dumbledore had told him to play his part to perfection, and Snape simply couldn't do that. He made the choice to attempt to stop the Death Eater beside him. Why? What did he possibly owe that he felt he could not allow one of the Order to die? He made the choice to be a part of it and he clearly wasn't at all drawn to Voldemort at this time. Though still not a nice person, Snape did actually redeem himself in small moments moreso than large.

Originally Posted by hg123

But this is only true prior to Dumbledore's death. After Dumbledore died, Snape had all choice in the world, in fact, it would have been easier for him to return to Voldemort's side. Everybody on the good side believed him to be a traitor and hated him, while Voldemort rewarded him and gave him the job of the Headmaster. Also, Voldie had taken over the Wizarding World, and the bad guys seemed to have won. It would have been very easy for Snape to completely return to their side, and the only reason he didn't, could have been out of duty for Lily and Dumbledore.

This is also entirely true. Snape did make these choices, he was not forced into them. If it meant nothing to him, he could easily have deferred. But he didn't. Adding to this, and because I've just refreshed the original page and seen new posts, I completely concur with Yoana, The_Green_Woods and ignisia. Their points are all raised in this, and I do think they deserve credit for getting them out there ahead of me.

No new word for the Worditorium in this one... Maybe next time?

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Took me ages to find this... "A hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner". I take the idea that she was scared from the word "cowering, and I do think that it's a fair analysis.

Ah yeah, that is what I recalled too. I imagined Tobias acting much like Snape did as an adult (hence his father's influence). The distinction was that Eileen was a witch, so she was not powerless against her husband, but instead had complete advantage over him. The Ministry would not condone her using magic against him in self-defense of course. So I understood her to be cowering away from his venemous speech in reaction, rather than using magic against him, because he was remaining verbal in his abusive speech. Still, it would have a poor affect on Snape, which is why he was crying. If Tobias became physical, imo, so would Eileen - and that might have happened. That could related in young Snape's mind as wizards being more powerful in the end and Muggles being useless, for all their attempts at being powerful.

With you on all of this paragraph too. It does indicate to me though, that he was doubly vindictive in light of his own circumstances. The Muggle kids could laugh and point, and despite the fact that he was raised to feel superior to them, they had it all and he had nothing. I understand his long lives bitterness in this regard.

I don't know if young Snape felt they had it all. I would rather think he felt they had friendship and he did not. I think that would incur some envy and bitterness. But again, Snape had the potential to be a "people person" , for lack of a better term. He did this with Lily - he ignored what she thought about him at first when she walked away with her nose in the air and was able to befriend her. So he had the potential to make friends if he wished to put the effort forward. But I think he believed these kids were 'muggles' and not worth the effort in his opinion. And note that he could have made relations easier with and for Lily if he had been nicer to Petunia; but he wasn't interested in doing that either because she was 'just a muggle'. In the same way he was able to befriend Lily, he could have made the attempt with Petunia as they were both at first eschewing him. This, especially once he'd befriended Lily and Petunia came around, clearly interested in why Lily was speaking to the boy. But Snape spoke nastily to her and Petunia answered in kind and the situation was hopeless.

So you figure that Snape just should have moved on and accepted the entire thing? I rather think that would amount to losing face and abjectly giving in, which is something he really didn't want to do.

I don't figure anything. Snape was a little kid and you don't know how they will respond to things, imo. In general, they all respond distinctly and too unexpectedly to try and contend that they "should have" done anything in my judgment. To me, we can only speak in possibilities.

He did go about making himself feel better in the wrong way, but I do think that he is justified in doing this as a result of every bad things that happened.

Here I think we are speaking about Snape as an older teen. The older you get, the more reasonable your behavior in general (imo), and the more responsibility you take on for your poor choices to me. Kids are usually, but not always very resilient, and they let go of the bad things they did when little tykes as well as the bad things that happened to them with respect to their peers unless it was tremendously catastrophic like a peer threw gasoline on you and set you on fire . But normally, fights, hair pulling, making you step in poop, and in HP, all those 100's of kids lifted upside down at Hogwarts - that kind of thing one just let's go of on both sides. That is what Snape had a problem doing. That was just his character. We can guess it was all due to his home life that his character formed in the way it did, but that is the best we can do, imo.

We have pointed out that there are more than one or two. Even in the real world, horrible statistic though this is, one in eight abused children because abusers themselves. I think that stands up quite well here, and though it's not "justification" in terms of me thinking that it's alright, because it isn't, it does provide a justified answer as to why he did turn out this way. See where I'm coming from? It's not that I think what he did was forgiveable or alright. It's a different justification.

I respect your view. But you leapt to the conclusion that Snape was abused from our discussion of whether or not Eileen was abused. I do feel we can say that Snape suffered indirect abuse (like when we saw the affect of his father yelling at his mum), but that is distinct from direct abuse. I don't think we know enough to rest all of Snape's subsequent behavior firmly on his home life. Also, I am not sure what you are referring to by "more than one or two" bad things - do you mean before Hogwarts, including after Hogwarts, or his whole life?

I'll add weight and argument to this. I agree with you quite completely, but I think that Lily was quite the exception to his thinking. Arguably, she was the first magical child he knew, and this explains why he chose to go along with her.

Again, this is another assumption. We don't know based on the canon what the lives of young wizard with wizard parents are. We know that Draco met Nott before Hogwarts because JKR told us. But whether Eileen visited old friends with magical children and took Snape along we don't know. Whether they traveled to magical places (like Diagon Alley) and Snape met other magical kids, we don't know. So I don't agree that we can say for certian that is why Snape was so willing to approach Lily. She was the only magical child in his neighborhood, but he never even noticed until he was 10 or so. Had he just started venturing into that area of town? Does that mean he may not have even ever approached the other Muggle children before? Perhaps he never had the experience of other Muggle children laughing at him because he always disdained them too much to approach. That is why I say we are only speaking in possibilities here. And that makes it nearly impossible to hold these things firmly as support of Snape's subsequent behavior.

But I had to suggest that perhaps this was also Snape's first crush. He fancied the pants off of her! I think that this confused and intrigued him, likely as it did the rest of us at that age, and I argue that even had it been a muggle he had fallen for, his attitude might have changed. It was a very important turning point. He was always quite careful not to reveal the worst of himself around her. Sure, they had small tiffs and fights, but they both moved on from it. He rarely used the word "mudblood", and he chose to hurt Petunia (if he did, and I do think he did), because she disapproved of him being with Lily, the one person he actually adored. He also associated with Petunia his anti Muggle feelings.

I think he had a crush on her too. However, I feel it was her ability that attracted him. I agree with you in as far as Petunia.

Though I do agree with you, I think Sirius would have seen more of Andromeda as a child. She was only disowned when she married Ted Tonks. I imagine before that she held her own within the family line. I agree that this isn't the biggest positive influence in the world, but I do imagine that he saw something in her attitude that he liked. It is stated that she was his favourite cousin.

Sirius may have, but again, we make a big assumption if we firmly decide that is what caused him to feel the way he did about his parents and the 'Slytherin way' in general, imo. We simply don't know. It is a possibility though. But as I pointed out, how much he got to see of her is also up in the air due to the way his parents felt about her.

This is basically where we come to disagree. James Potter was flawed too. It has been stated that he categorically hexed others, simply because he could.

I thought I agreed with this . My first two examples of his behavior showed he hexed others because he could. The first for pure fun and the second because someone molested him in some way.

I agree with you that they were dire enemies. But I blame that on James Potter. I know that there'll be outcry, but my reading of the canon is as follows. Severus Snape walked into a carriage on a train, sat with his best friend and said "You'd better be in Slytherin." James Potter interrupted, though it truly was none of his business since he knew neither Lily or Snape, and said "Slytherin? Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" to Sirius. This proves that he was the person who was first both cruel and vindictive. Harry himself noticed that James came across as being well cared for, adored, and he immediately contrasted this with the conspicuousness that Snape did not share this good fortune. This is the moment when they became enemies.

Well we would have to agree to disagree on this. If we speak about it, it should be via owl I think. Also, we should re-read the scene first. From the point Snape enters and Lily is crying - and the remarks Snape's makes to her prior to saying 'she better be in Slytherin'. Note while reading that while the other boys are in conversation, they do appear to pick up on what the other two are saying, although they pay scant attention to them and we can discuss that too.

In the sense of a big picture, no. They both did it because they disliked each other intensely, and were both entirely to blame for their own choices. But in the smaller picture sense, James did clearly get a sick pleasure out of doing it, and frequently appears to have done it when there was no necessity to defend himself, merely to add excitement to the situation, as we saw following their DADA OWL.

We were not shown "frequent" instances, so I am unsure how you reached the conclusion of what James did "frequently". I also don't agree that there was a difference in motivation between any of the participants. Nonetheless, we'd best agree to disagree here and we can take this up in an owl. .

He would have been expelled if he used Dark Magic just for fun, and he would have known that and been careful. A few hexes here and there would have been okay, but dark curses would certainly have aroused suspicion, and from what we know, Snape was not a poor or uncooperative student.

It became his specialty - he used it that much, whatever amount it takes to become one's specialty in your view. I am certain that most of the hex wars took place away from the probing eyes of the professors. One does not have to use dark magic to get in trouble; all hex wars get you in trouble no matter what you are using.

Ah, but Sirius wasn't humiliated in front of the girl he liked. That's the only difference. Sirius disliked Snape because Snape reminded him of his own family, and that stuck for life.

Here again I feel you are making an assumption. There is no canon to support this idea, although I agree it is a possibility. But we have from Sirius' own words in canon that there was more to it than that. (POA, GoF and OOTP)

I do see where you get the idea from, truly I do. But I wonder are you underestimating the sheer influence the Death Eater crowd had. The chances are that they were a rather large clique, everybody knew about it. They were again the first people Snape met in school, the first people he got to know, and as a Slytherin, resulting from his mother's lessons in life, he thought himself superior to pretty much anybody else. I'm not sure that there was a lot of good influence in that group. Everybody else mingled, that group by definition didn't, so why would he? I know that it was his choice to, but it would never have occurred to him as a sensible option.

No, you misunderstand me. I do think Snape's negative influences would be just as great. My only point was there were other influences around him that he chose to ignore. He ignored Lily, Dumbledore, the Professors and all the students who were "John and Jane Doe, Good Boys of Hogwarts". He didn't ignore his friends which were a part of the dangerous group he hung around; he didn't ignore Voldemort; he didn't ignore his mum and dad; he didn't ignore his enemies (although he misconstrued their good points).

You indicated that Snape didn't mingle - well neither did Draco. Draco disdained everyone who was not a Slytherin. His influences in thinking were all based on what his parents had told him. He too had a myriad of good influences around him and for 6.5 years chose to ignore them. But something sunk in, didn't it? On the tower, Draco couldn't follow through despite all of the bad influences he'd chosen to hang around and allow to influence him. So where did Draco get these "other thoughts"? There was no "good aunt" in his household when he was young - Bella was worse than his parents . He had no friend like Lily who he loved and listened to and who was in his face showing him another view (as Snape did). I would opine that he had allowed some of the good influences around him at Hogwarts to take root. That is what Snape had the possibility of doing as well, but he didn't, imo.

You don't agree that he could have simply stayed with the death eaters? It was 1980 when he heard that prophecy (or late 79), and immediately he set about trying to make things better. He finally saw sense and went to Dumbledore, despite the fact that the thought of it terrified him, as we saw in the flashback section of the final book. It was entirely his decision to make. Indeed, if he were a true die hard, as all assumed, he would have been like Bellatrix and Barty Crouch Jr. He would have taken the term in Azkaban. So if you suggest that he wouldn't have, that indicates already that he had always had slight doubts, and that he did indeed make the choice to see Dumbledore. Nobody forced him down that path, it was the most unexpected thing he could have done. Equally, if he would have taken the terms in Azkaban, then he just as individually made the decision to meet Dumbledore. He gave his promise in 1981, November 1st, 1981, I think, that he would protect Harry Potter at all costs and always be loyal to Dumbledore. He did not have to do this. It was a choice he made consciously thinking about Lily Potter.

Well you are speaking of a myriad of differing times. Snape wanted Lily safe (for whatever reason) and so he turned sides. That was a choice, but just a mental one because he also remained with Voldemort for the rest of the week (as far as Voldemort knew). So Voldemort was not trying to kill him - nor was Dumbledore. When the Potters died and Voldemort was temporarily out of business, Snape's choices were limited to Azkaban or helping Dumbledore. He chose the latter, but I ask you, is that much of a choice? Azkaban = the next best thing to Death. Many died, most went totally crazy, some went almost totally crazy, and only a few retained some sanity - but everyone was affected and no one wanted to go there. It was not just prison - it was as good as a death sentence. That is what I was referring to.

When Dumbledore died (I wasn't referring to this), Snape could have mentally returned to Voldemort and he chose not to do so. That was good. But if he had, he'd of ended up in a "real" battle with the other professors at the end, possibly losing his life unless he escaped (it was 4 on 1 at one point, but he escaped before the other 3 were able to join in). Voldemort would have still killed him over the Elder Wand and Dumbledore's portrait would have had to get the message to Harry itself. We know that, but Snape didn't, so he made a good choice to stay true to Dumbledore. He couldn't have defied Voldemort without being hunted and killed by Voldemort. I assume by that point, Snape had decided Voldemort was the wrong way to go - so there was no real 'new choice' made at that point, he just carried on. But there was a choice to make a "new decision" (return to Voldemort), so Snape's decision at this point to carry on was a very good one. However, this was not a "new beginning" or a "new path" in my opinion in as far as Snape was concerned. Although it might be seen that way for a reader who did not know what side he was on. So that is my view of the notion you brought up.

Yep, it's Karkaroff. But I know who you mean, which is the important thing. I don't see why Dumbledore would have been looking for him, or indeed, Voldemort. He called, Snape didn't come at first, and Voldemort doubted Snape's position. Dumbledore would have severed all ties, and decided that the best of Snape wasn't worth keeping. But true to his word, at the hardest time possible, Snape fulfilled this promise. He never had to. He could have ran and faced death, or he could have returned to Voldemort and taken punishment. If he had been a die hard Death Eater, a bit of punishment wouldn't have gone astray. I think he had every choice in the matter. If he hated it so much, why not be punished or die? It must have been just as difficult for him to stay with Dumbledore and act as a double agent, But he did maintain it,even when it became quite ridiculous.

I am not understanding your point. Imo, Snape didn't have a death wish. He would not choose to die rather than continue working for Dumbledore. The latter was a far better choice in Snape's mind (no matter what side he was on at that point). And as such, he had no choice but to return to Voldemort as Dumbledore asked, imo. He could become a DE again, Voldemort would be happy, but Dumbledore would not - and Snape would lose his position and become a hunted DE like the others. He could have not returned to Voldemort, but Voldemort would have killed him. So I am not seeing the profound choice you indicate here. Snape could choose to die, sure, but that is not a viable choice, imo.

To add to this, and as a testament to what he was willing to do, at the beginning of Deathly Hallows, it is shown that Snape is the one who blew of George's ear. If he were feeling even slightly vindictive, this would have made sense. But later we're shown that he was, in fact, aiming at the Death Eater's hand in front of him, who was trying to kill George. Dumbledore had told him to play his part to perfection, and Snape simply couldn't do that. He made the choice to attempt to stop the Death Eater beside him. Why? What did he possibly owe that he felt he could not allow one of the Order to die? He made the choice to be a part of it and he clearly wasn't at all drawn to Voldemort at this time. Though still not a nice person, Snape did actually redeem himself in small moments moreso than large.

Snape chose to stop the DE using Sectumsempra. Then it could look like he'd been trying to cast that curse at the Order members (to the DEs and Voldemort). That is Snape's mentality at work - all his decision alone. He could have stopped the DE with a stunner as his DE mates were throwing and then carried the DE off as if "saving him". But Snape doesn't think like that as written.

I feel JKR wanted us to know about Sectumsempra being Snape's old specialty, so she wrote it the way she did. But I believe she took into account the circumstances under which she had written it. Thus, the redemptive moment, as you call it, is marred by Snape's character, as are all of his redemptive moments, imo. He also said he no longer watched those die that he could save. But we know that he also tormented those who he could treat indifferently (i.e. the kids and his peers like Tonks). With Snape, his steps forward were all taken along a stairway marred with potholes that he seemed to enjoy shooting into the stairs before stepping into them in my judgment.

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

This is also entirely true. Snape did make these choices, he was not forced into them. If it meant nothing to him, he could easily have deferred. But he didn't. Adding to this, and because I've just refreshed the original page and seen new posts, I completely concur with Yoana, The_Green_Woods and ignisia. Their points are all raised in this, and I do think they deserve credit for getting them out there ahead of me.

With the exception of Yoana's comment, I fervently disagree with what was said. However, I won't be pulled into a straight out James (Sirius) v. Snape battle in this thread. Our good conversation will be brought to an abrupt end by the moderators if we allow it to fall into that trap. . Again, I would be happy to discuss these ideas in an owl.

No new word for the Worditorium in this one... Maybe next time?

- we must extend the vocabularium!!!

Originally Posted by Yoana

Maybe they just disliked each other instantly (on that train) and this dislike, fuelled by their Houses' rivalry and opposing sides in the emerging war, magnified and became integral part of their characters. Of course Severus believing Sirius to be the cause of Lily's death must have turned the dislike into full-blown hatred - and this rarely changes back.

That was my interpretation too. I agree.

[vampiricduck]

Before I even start (and I know it will take an hour to finish), we will not talk the James-Snape thing any longer in this thread. But we will talk about it, do you hear me?!

Their issues will only be referenced here in small tiny doses and they shan't be compared. Maybe.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Ah yeah, that is what I recalled too. I imagined Tobias acting much like Snape did as an adult (hence his father's influence). The distinction was that Eileen was a witch, so she was not powerless against her husband, but instead had complete advantage over him. The Ministry would not condone her using magic against him in self-defense of course. So I understood her to be cowering away from his venemous speech in reaction, rather than using magic against him, because he was remaining verbal in his abusive speech. Still, it would have a poor affect on Snape, which is why he was crying. If Tobias became physical, imo, so would Eileen - and that might have happened. That could related in young Snape's mind as wizards being more powerful in the end and Muggles being useless, for all their attempts at being powerful.

Okay, so we're agreed. Snape's childhood basically sucked. His mother had delusions of grandeur and forced an extreme belief into her child. His father was poverty stricken and could have felt quite inadequate by comparison with magic. The family structure fell apart, Eileen and Tobias yelled at each other and could quite feasibly have become violent. Snape bore witness to all of this and it did affect him quite badly. He preferred his mother to his father, who he was glad to evade whenever possible. He became very bitter toward the family dynamic and detested the idea of staying home. That it? Goodie.

I don't know if young Snape felt they had it all. I would rather think he felt they had friendship and he did not. I think that would incur some envy and bitterness. But again, Snape had the potential to be a "people person" , for lack of a better term. He did this with Lily - he ignored what she thought about him at first when she walked away with her nose in the air and was able to befriend her. So he had the potential to make friends if he wished to put the effort forward. But I think he believed these kids were 'muggles' and not worth the effort in his opinion. And note that he could have made relations easier with and for Lily if he had been nicer to Petunia; but he wasn't interested in doing that either because she was 'just a muggle'. In the same way he was able to befriend Lily, he could have made the attempt with Petunia as they were both at first eschewing him. This, especially once he'd befriended Lily and Petunia came around, clearly interested in why Lily was speaking to the boy. But Snape spoke nastily to her and Petunia answered in kind and the situation was hopeless.

I agree with every last part of this without contest, except... The first line. When you were 7,8,9,even ten, what was the most important thing? I know that for kids I knew at that stage, it was all about friends. Everybody wanted friends. Being left out of games in a playground is a cruel thing, and it's definitely a very scarring experience. It leaves you isolated and decrepid from a young age. The Muggle kids all had friends. If they laughed at his clothes, theirs were likely different, so they likely weren't as poor as his parents were. They laughed at him and so he didn't like them anyway, and they weren't supposed to laugh at him because his mother had told him that he was superior. I still say, after all of this and agreeing with everything else you said in that paragraph, that he felt a certain degree of envy when he saw the Muggles together, and he felt a certain degree of loss that he had nobody.

I don't figure anything. Snape was a little kid and you don't know how they will respond to things, imo. In general, they all respond distinctly and too unexpectedly to try and contend that they "should have" done anything in my judgment. To me, we can only speak in possibilities.

This is actually a fairly important issue with relation to him, you, and me. Knowing as I do that children sometimes do weird and unexpected things (), and knowing that as a child Snape was damaged goods, I see his outlook on life in general as being quite dark. This is in my imagination, of course, but with his home life I know I certainly wouldn't have been a happy chappy, so socially and mentally, it does make sense. I do agree that Snape picked his own options with regard to friends based entirely on his Darcy-esque prejudices, but I don't think either that he could have just tried to join the clique of children who had mocked him. To me, that lacks courage somewhat. Snape arguably never wanted to be with those children in the first place. In fact, I'm sure of it. So why, why would you bother making friends with people you didn't like? This is my point. He would have lost pride (no bad thing admittedly), lost face and lost self respect, whatever little inkling of it he had. This is why I think his own personality wouldn't allow him to appeal to those children for their involvement with him.

Here I think we are speaking about Snape as an older teen. The older you get, the more reasonable your behavior in general (imo), and the more responsibility you take on for your poor choices to me. Kids are usually, but not always very resilient, and they let go of the bad things they did when little tykes as well as the bad things that happened to them with respect to their peers unless it was tremendously catastrophic like a peer threw gasoline on you and set you on fire . But normally, fights, hair pulling, making you step in poop, and in HP, all those 100's of kids lifted upside down at Hogwarts - that kind of thing one just let's go of on both sides. That is what Snape had a problem doing. That was just his character. We can guess it was all due to his home life that his character formed in the way it did, but that is the best we can do, imo.

I certainly agree that this is him when he is older and that yes, behaviour does become more reasonable. I agree with all of your assertions here, without doubt. Snape should indeed have been able to let go. So why couldn't he? What made his situation so "catastrophic" (nice word, btw!), that he could not do that? As you yourself say, it can all be put down to his home life and the inadequacies in his personal development. It was indeed his character which made him incapable of moving on. And his character, which stayed with him for the rest of his life, I would conclude, arose because he was a victim of circumstance.

I respect your view. But you leapt to the conclusion that Snape was abused from our discussion of whether or not Eileen was abused. I do feel we can say that Snape suffered indirect abuse (like when we saw the affect of his father yelling at his mum), but that is distinct from direct abuse. I don't think we know enough to rest all of Snape's subsequent behavior firmly on his home life. Also, I am not sure what you are referring to by "more than one or two" bad things - do you mean before Hogwarts, including after Hogwarts, or his whole life?

Actually, I didn't. . Let me explain. The definition of an abused child that I have most often read revolves around different areas. We won't get legal about this, I'll just fire a list at you of things that qualify. His clothes weren't fitted properly, he was unkempt, this counts as physical neglect. Emotionally neglected by his father, who seemed to dislike everything. There was a lack of affection within his family that he bore witness to. Kids mocked him, isolated him, picked on him, teased him, judged him and rejected him, thus invalidating him. If his mother and father did genuinely fight, he saw that too, and that counts as part of the list. See where I'm going? All of those things actually do count. This is heavy discussion though, so we'll move on. We can't blame everything on his home life, no, but being invalidated is, I gather, quite crushing and crude for a kid. These are the more than one or two bad things, even if we do remove the scenario with the children, which is not based entirely on canon, but more on common sense that the two of us added to. But do you see what I meant?

I think he had a crush on her too. However, I feel it was her ability that attracted him. I agree with you in as far as Petunia.

Though it's true that he might have known other Wizarding kids, and feasible that he grew up with maybe a few, or met a few, she was likely the first one he met that was Muggle born and she captivated him. Or at least, she was the first one he saw the magic in, that's not to say he didn't know others who were also magical. Though she did only catch his attention when she was seen to have magical ability, as he watched her he started to like her. It does state that he had been planning to talk to her for ages and then it didn't go according to plan, making him awkward and uncomfortable. It does sound quite familiar to me, having been on both his and her end of that particular stick at some stage. What drew him more than her magic was herself. I say that taking your point into consideration, regarding the fact that he likely knew other Wizarding children. What made her so special if he had met others?

We were not shown "frequent" instances, so I am unsure how you reached the conclusion of what James did "frequently". I also don't agree that there was a difference in motivation between any of the participants. Nonetheless, we'd best agree to disagree here and we can take this up in an owl. .

Though I do agree to the owl part, I also concede that frequently was the wrong word. I actually don't recall typing it, or rather, I do, but elsewhere. Confusion, dontcha know. Gets the best of me... quite frequently..

It became his specialty - he used it that much, whatever amount it takes to become one's specialty in your view. I am certain that most of the hex wars took place away from the probing eyes of the professors. One does not have to use dark magic to get in trouble; all hex wars get you in trouble no matter what you are using.

All hex wars would get you into trouble, but I imagine more leniency would be applied to someone who tried a bat bogey hex, as opposed to someone who threw the Cruciatus Curse. See what I mean?

No, you misunderstand me. I do think Snape's negative influences would be just as great. My only point was there were other influences around him that he chose to ignore. He ignored Lily, Dumbledore, the Professors and all the students who were "John and Jane Doe, Good Boys of Hogwarts". He didn't ignore his friends which were a part of the dangerous group he hung around; he didn't ignore Voldemort; he didn't ignore his mum and dad; he didn't ignore his enemies (although he misconstrued their good points).

I'm with you on all of this, except that last bit in brackets. He didn't misconstrue their good points, he just didn't want to see them, so he didn't, and that's a bad thing. It wasn't incomprehension, it was a prejudice that prevented him seeing past their bad points, much the same as his attitude to Harry later in life. I know it's rare for me to criticise him, but that is one of these times. Lap it up!

As for his choices, we've agreed time and again that these are just warped, illogical and downright idiotic on occasion. We have also agreed though, that this goes much farther back, to the people who taught him the values he internalized.

You indicated that Snape didn't mingle - well neither did Draco. Draco disdained everyone who was not a Slytherin. His influences in thinking were all based on what his parents had told him. He too had a myriad of good influences around him and for 6.5 years chose to ignore them. But something sunk in, didn't it? On the tower, Draco couldn't follow through despite all of the bad influences he'd chosen to hang around and allow to influence him. So where did Draco get these "other thoughts"? There was no "good aunt" in his household when he was young - Bella was worse than his parents . He had no friend like Lily who he loved and listened to and who was in his face showing him another view (as Snape did). I would opine that he had allowed some of the good influences around him at Hogwarts to take root. That is what Snape had the possibility of doing as well, but he didn't, imo.

Draco=Grey character. . I don't know enough about him to determine why he couldn't do it, but I would assume that Dumbledore's flailing figure in front of him shocked him into inertia. I can imagine this happening. A man who had, for six years, been a huge part of all of them, and Draco was expected to remove him. Even Voldemort knew he couldn't do it, he just didn't have it in him. Perhaps all the darkness was spoiled out of him. It also becomes clear that Narcissa Malfoy wasn't quite the vigilante Lucius was, at any rate. She seems much more dulcet, so that might also be an explanation. It does, however, show a vital difference with Snape. Again, we'll owl this one to its limit. *sigh*

So that is my view of the notion you brought up.

Sorry not to quote the whole thing, but there are only parts I want to talk about. I was talking about different times, primarily because there were different times. I agree with most of what you said, and my view boils down to this. Snape, admittedly very late in life, did make a number of good decisions and promises. He proved himself as a man of his word, and even Dumbledore said that he didn't truly belong in Slytherin, "perhaps we sort too soon".

I'm willing to accept from canon, Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore, that he was inherently brave, that he gave a lot of his own peace of mind to a flurry of double deals and a half life, and that in the end, the good things he had seen interrupted the bad. He did, finally, finally make a choice that redeemed him, at least to everybody in the book, even, it appears, the Weasleys, who bear to have his name thrust upon a member of their family, even after he blew the ear off of one of them.

He is the only one to be held accountable for his eventual choices, for his eventual decisions. But he cannot be blamed for what he internalized early on. He can, however, be recognised as extremely stubborn, cruel, difficult to deal with, bitter and somewhat isolated even in later years. He's a thoroughly unpleasant, cynical and sarcastic human being with a penchant for antagonistic behaviour, yes. But none of those are his true issue, or why we talk about him. He was morally ambiguous, and that's where it lies.

I am not understanding your point. Imo, Snape didn't have a death wish. He would not choose to die rather than continue working for Dumbledore. The latter was a far better choice in Snape's mind (no matter what side he was on at that point). And as such, he had no choice but to return to Voldemort as Dumbledore asked, imo. He could become a DE again, Voldemort would be happy, but Dumbledore would not - and Snape would lose his position and become a hunted DE like the others. He could have not returned to Voldemort, but Voldemort would have killed him. So I am not seeing the profound choice you indicate here. Snape could choose to die, sure, but that is not a viable choice, imo.

He didn't have a death wish, no. But he was so selfish that all he cared about was himself. He made a tough choice based on everything he had seen and learned, and the only compassionate part of him beat the black bits back, which I think does indicate a sense of light and moral courage. Had he returned to Voldemort, he still would have been a death eater. Dumbledore would have been disappointed, but why hunt just one death eater instead of his master? Dumbledore would have done nothing but cut his losses. He was a strategist, he would have worked beyond it. Sure, he returned when Dumbledore asked. But the hunt can't have bothered him so much- he spent the best part of time since he graduated in a war anyway, why would it start to bother him later on? His choice to join Dumbledore indicates that he wasn't a heartless crook, but that he did have a good streak, which is why it is felt that he redeemed himself. Even Harry thought so.

Snape chose to stop the DE using Sectumsempra. Then it could look like he'd been trying to cast that curse at the Order members (to the DEs and Voldemort). That is Snape's mentality at work - all his decision alone. He could have stopped the DE with a stunner as his DE mates were throwing and then carried the DE off as if "saving him". But Snape doesn't think like that as written.

Good point. it does show he's smart though. Smarter than me at any rate, eh?

He also said he no longer watched those die that he could save. But we know that he also tormented those who he could treat indifferently (i.e. the kids and his peers like Tonks). With Snape, his steps forward were all taken along a stairway marred with potholes that he seemed to enjoy shooting into the stairs before stepping into them in my judgment.

Nice allegorical moment there at the end . Aside from not killing and trying not to injure, Snape showed extreme disgust at Dumbledore for putting Snape's own soul at risk just to kill him. We're agreed that he did make the right choices, the only real difference between us is that you don't think he redeemed himself enough.

Sure, he wasn't too much of a nice guy, but neither were Dr. Frankenstein, Hamlet, Macbeth, Shylock, Harry Callahan, Tony Montana, Wolverine, Anakin Skywalker. It's the mark of an antihero, paticularly in post modern fiction, that he has moral ambiguity, was a victim of circumstance, made the right choice too late, is brooding or "dark" in general, and yet still he qualifies through a series of depressive but ultimately redemptive moments. As a literary device, just like Boromir, Snape simply had to die. This adds to the mental redemptive qualities within a book. I only bring this up to partially explain why the world and its mother seems determined to see him in a good light. In the literary sense, that's why. Some things just never change. While he's not the only antihero in the books, that is what makes him grey and dissociative.

- we must extend the vocabularium!!!

Hey now, don't make fun of me for not being able to extend the dictionarium. I'm quite happy with English as it is . Must you always need more?

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Before I even start (and I know it will take an hour to finish), we will not talk the James-Snape thing any longer in this thread. But we will talk about it, do you hear me?!

Aye aye, Sir! . I'll collect the points at some point or you can and send an owl.

Okay, so we're agreed. Snape's childhood basically sucked. His mother had delusions of grandeur and forced an extreme belief into her child. His father was poverty stricken and could have felt quite inadequate by comparison with magic. The family structure fell apart, Eileen and Tobias yelled at each other and could quite feasibly have become violent. Snape bore witness to all of this and it did affect him quite badly. He preferred his mother to his father, who he was glad to evade whenever possible. He became very bitter toward the family dynamic and detested the idea of staying home. That it? Goodie.

Yup.

I agree with every last part of this without contest, except... The first line. When you were 7,8,9,even ten, what was the most important thing? I know that for kids I knew at that stage, it was all about friends. Everybody wanted friends. Being left out of games in a playground is a cruel thing, and it's definitely a very scarring experience. It leaves you isolated and decrepid from a young age. The Muggle kids all had friends. If they laughed at his clothes, theirs were likely different, so they likely weren't as poor as his parents were. They laughed at him and so he didn't like them anyway, and they weren't supposed to laugh at him because his mother had told him that he was superior. I still say, after all of this and agreeing with everything else you said in that paragraph, that he felt a certain degree of envy when he saw the Muggles together, and he felt a certain degree of loss that he had nobody.

Then we agree. I merely meant he couldn't have believed all these kids had riches and love and "it all" in a literal sense. Some of them were from the same side of the tracks he was on (those he'd most likely see). Their families too would be poor as church mice and Snape would note that easily in comparing them to kids better off across the tracks. But basing it on 'friendship', I agree.

This is actually a fairly important issue with relation to him, you, and me. Knowing as I do that children sometimes do weird and unexpected things (), and knowing that as a child Snape was damaged goods, I see his outlook on life in general as being quite dark. This is in my imagination, of course, but with his home life I know I certainly wouldn't have been a happy chappy, so socially and mentally, it does make sense. I do agree that Snape picked his own options with regard to friends based entirely on his Darcy-esque prejudices, but I don't think either that he could have just tried to join the clique of children who had mocked him. To me, that lacks courage somewhat. Snape arguably never wanted to be with those children in the first place. In fact, I'm sure of it. So why, why would you bother making friends with people you didn't like? This is my point. He would have lost pride (no bad thing admittedly), lost face and lost self respect, whatever little inkling of it he had. This is why I think his own personality wouldn't allow him to appeal to those children for their involvement with him.

Right, but I agree Snape didn't want to. My point was that he clearly had the potential within him to put the effort forth if he wanted to because he proved it by doing so with Lily. I also agree that he didn't want to because they were 'just muggles' and he wanted to with Lily because she was different than all of them. In other words, he was willing to put his pride aside at her turning her nose up at him, but not with the other kids - including her sister.

I certainly agree that this is him when he is older and that yes, behaviour does become more reasonable. I agree with all of your assertions here, without doubt. Snape should indeed have been able to let go. So why couldn't he? What made his situation so "catastrophic" (nice word, btw!), that he could not do that? As you yourself say, it can all be put down to his home life and the inadequacies in his personal development. It was indeed his character which made him incapable of moving on. And his character, which stayed with him for the rest of his life, I would conclude, arose because he was a victim of circumstance.

I agree, and I add that all kids were a victim of circumstance in that way. It is just that Snape's circumstances were bad. But where we seem to differ slightly is that I feel Snape carried this attitude, behavior and character with him to Hogwarts. You appear to suggest that he left it behind and took up a whole new set of influences in some cases. But I don't think that is true, I think he carried it with him at all times he was there. That same desire to hurt Petunia with the tree branch due to her attitude is the same desire he would have when faced with those feelings at Hogwarts, imo.

Actually, I didn't. . Let me explain. The definition of an abused child that I have most often read revolves around different areas. We won't get legal about this, I'll just fire a list at you of things that qualify. His clothes weren't fitted properly, he was unkempt, this counts as physical neglect. Emotionally neglected by his father, who seemed to dislike everything. There was a lack of affection within his family that he bore witness to. Kids mocked him, isolated him, picked on him, teased him, judged him and rejected him, thus invalidating him. If his mother and father did genuinely fight, he saw that too, and that counts as part of the list. See where I'm going? All of those things actually do count. This is heavy discussion though, so we'll move on. We can't blame everything on his home life, no, but being invalidated is, I gather, quite crushing and crude for a kid. These are the more than one or two bad things, even if we do remove the scenario with the children, which is not based entirely on canon, but more on common sense that the two of us added to. But do you see what I meant?

Ah, so just when he was a tyke then. Right, well that makes more sense. And all of this caused him to develop in certain ways - ways which he carried off to Hogwarts with him, imo.

Though it's true that he might have known other Wizarding kids, and feasible that he grew up with maybe a few, or met a few, she was likely the first one he met that was Muggle born and she captivated him. Or at least, she was the first one he saw the magic in, that's not to say he didn't know others who were also magical. Though she did only catch his attention when she was seen to have magical ability, as he watched her he started to like her. It does state that he had been planning to talk to her for ages and then it didn't go according to plan, making him awkward and uncomfortable. It does sound quite familiar to me, having been on both his and her end of that particular stick at some stage. What drew him more than her magic was herself. I say that taking your point into consideration, regarding the fact that he likely knew other Wizarding children. What made her so special if he had met others?

I don't think he had close magical friends; I just mean that he'd perhaps met some. Lily was as you say, a muggle with magic. That was something new. She was also in his neighborhood, the only one we know of. So that too was new. So I think it would be natural that he would be interested in her. His development of a crush is something apart with respect to his initially noticing her.

Though I do agree to the owl part, I also concede that frequently was the wrong word. I actually don't recall typing it, or rather, I do, but elsewhere. Confusion, dontcha know. Gets the best of me... quite frequently..

.

All hex wars would get you into trouble, but I imagine more leniency would be applied to someone who tried a bat bogey hex, as opposed to someone who threw the Cruciatus Curse. See what I mean?

But my point here was that because all hex wars get you in trouble, it is unlikely kids started them up in front of professors. For example, if Dumbledore and McGonagall had been walking across the Grass in SWM, that particular hex war would have not likely taken place at all. So anyone starting one would be aware of their environment and it would be out of the sight of authorities. Leniency is less important than "getting in trouble and serving detention" which is what happens to everyone, no matter which spell they choose. Now this is totally different than trying out the toe nail growing hex on someone like Harry did or the 100's of students lifting one another up in the hallways. That too would get you in trouble, but less than a 'hex war' which has so much animus behind it, professors take the matter more seriously and students know it. There is more involved than a simple hour's detention - you get into problems like Harry did when he and Draco fought and he used Sectumsempra. He was purposely made to miss Quidditch games and so his suffering was far greater. Draco tried to pull the 'crucio' there, but they were in private, and he wouldn't have likely done that in the hallway with Dumbledore around - or simply because of the potential of a professor being around. So Snape would be mindful of that if using a dark curse and his opponents would be equally mindful of starting a hex war with animus behind it. But all of them would lift up a school mate in the hallway - the professor might give an hour's detention, but not cause them to miss Quidditch or some other fun function. And again, Snape used at least the one enough to become known as his specialty (and I agree in settings where there were not professors).

I'm with you on all of this, except that last bit in brackets. He didn't misconstrue their good points, he just didn't want to see them, so he didn't, and that's a bad thing. It wasn't incomprehension, it was a prejudice that prevented him seeing past their bad points, much the same as his attitude to Harry later in life. I know it's rare for me to criticise him, but that is one of these times. Lap it up!

I agree with you. But that is not exactly what I was referring to. I do believe what you said also occurred. But when Snape saw Harry catch the Snitch and beat out Draco dramatically - then turn and raise his fist in the air and all his housemates cheer wildly, land and be surrounded by people making admirable comments and congratulating him, he misconstrued Harry's point of view, imo.

Snape saw this and saw Harry's fist in the air not as 'accomplishment' but as arrogant boasting, imo. But it isn't of course. If you are an athlete, you practice your pants off and in a game, if you pull off a great move you have practiced, or a feat you have worked toward, you are filled with a sense of accomplishment and you feel like: "YEAH BABY!" and you respond accordingly. You are not boasting in that moment (except with the rare individual who has supreme god-like talent and couldn't care less about the team winning and does't really practice, but only plays as an opportunity to show off their talent - and neither Harry or his father had that god-like talent that had professional teams running to hire them and people saying they were the best in the history of the game e.g., Viktor Krum. They were just normally gifted players who practiced.) But Snape saw boasting and arrogance there, imo. He also saw both surrounded by their housemates afterward, being congratulated and misconstrued their sheer joy at their practice paying off (via their natural talent - which Snape degraded as "a small amount" rather than truly talented as they were, although not god-like) and their happy smiles and hand slapping as "preening or strutting" (POA). Now whether or not Snape knew he was miscontruing their actions or not is up for debate. But he did do it in the reference I gave. So I would agree with your construction (which likely happened at times), but mine as well - which happened on page.

Sorry not to quote the whole thing, but there are only parts I want to talk about. I was talking about different times, primarily because there were different times. I agree with most of what you said, and my view boils down to this. Snape, admittedly very late in life, did make a number of good decisions and promises. He proved himself as a man of his word,

I only named one good decision, so I am not sure what you are referring to. Are you breaking down all of Snape's individual acts at the end that he did for Dumbledore - because I was calling that 'working for Dumbledore' comprehensively.

and even Dumbledore said that he didn't truly belong in Slytherin, "perhaps we sort too soon".

Don't get me started. Slytherin is my favorite house and I fervently disagree with Dumbledore's statement unless he was referring to himself.

I'm willing to accept from canon, Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore, that he was inherently brave,

They actually said that he was brave - Harry used the superlative. But I disagree that they meant 'inherently' because it not being inherent is what make it remarkable for Snape. JKR said he was inherently vulnerable and insecure, so his bravery in spying was something he actually had to put effort into, imo. I think his natural tendency was to be cowardly - and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but rather because of all of the things that we discussed, Snape's character was such that he avoided situations that would entail bravery generally, imo, and made non-brave decisions a lot of the time (which I can enumerate if you like as there are a lot of them). So that is why when he showed bravery it was remarkable, imo. (As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.)

that he gave a lot of his own peace of mind to a flurry of double deals and a half life, and that in the end, the good things he had seen interrupted the bad. He did, finally, finally make a choice that redeemed him, at least to everybody in the book, even, it appears, the Weasleys, who bear to have his name thrust upon a member of their family, even after he blew the ear off of one of them.

I would respectfully disagree. We don't have canon on how anyone felt about Snape except Dumbledore and Harry, imo. Thus, anything else is an assumption and I feel just the opposite. The Weasleys could not control Harry's choices. And he could explain himself to his wife, and we hope she agreed, but we don't even know that - she may have just given in. So I do not think we can support that assumption without further canon. Plus, JKR said that the opinion following the war about Snape would be varied. (Interview with Viera - 2007)

Nonetheless, this has nothing to do with Snape's redemption in my opinion. He rejected evil, and so he is redeemed from being a total black character. He also moved from leaving those to die who he felt he could save, to trying to save them. But even in that statement he retained a choice for himself because it begs the question of "who Snape felt he could save and why". Redemption for me requires admission of all wrongs, remorse and repentence and the text does not have Snape himself doing any of these things on page for many of his past wrongs (while a DE). Also, he behaved in an evil manner in my opinion while on the good side which also required redemption but was not had. So my personal view was that he was not redeemed overall. JKR said she wanted it, and I relate her desire, but unfortunately, she cannot meet the terms required by every reader for redemption. I think she was aware of that as she indicated herself that people would see Snape distinctly following his death (re: good/bad). She even gave a specific example of Rita writing an article giving both viewpoints of Snape - this all in that same interview.

He is the only one to be held accountable for his eventual choices, for his eventual decisions. But he cannot be blamed for what he internalized early on. He can, however, be recognised as extremely stubborn, cruel, difficult to deal with, bitter and somewhat isolated even in later years. He's a thoroughly unpleasant, cynical and sarcastic human being with a penchant for antagonistic behaviour, yes. But none of those are his true issue, or why we talk about him. He was morally ambiguous, and that's where it lies.

This brings up an excellent point: your opinion mitigates, limits and justifies Snape's poor decisions (based on his background, etc.) - some of which I agree with. But your opinion gives Snape full credit and all of the responsibility, culpability and honor for his good decisions. If Snape truly is so profoundly and deeply influenced by his surroundings (like his homelife, Hogwarts life, etc.), then should not we be giving praise and responsibility to McGonagall, Lily, Dumbledore, and all of those good siders Snape was around for Snape's eventual good decisions? He was not entirely responsible for those either under the theory of influence. So Snape should neither suffer full blame nor full honor, but rather just part of the blame for his bad decisions and part of the blame for his good ones.

What does that say about Snape's delve into the Death Eater realm? That it was not purely an autonomous decision, that there were factors that heavily influenced him to fall into that horrible trap. That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. His choice was therefore, not all of his and we cannot say that his soul was truly soiled or behind the decision for the most part. So what does it say about Snape's turn to the good side? That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. So we cannot really say that his soul was really redeemed or behind his decision for the most part. You follow me?

He didn't have a death wish, no. But he was so selfish that all he cared about was himself. He made a tough choice based on everything he had seen and learned, and the only compassionate part of him beat the black bits back, which I think does indicate a sense of light and moral courage. Had he returned to Voldemort, he still would have been a death eater. Dumbledore would have been disappointed, but why hunt just one death eater instead of his master? Dumbledore would have done nothing but cut his losses. He was a strategist, he would have worked beyond it. Sure, he returned when Dumbledore asked. But the hunt can't have bothered him so much- he spent the best part of time since he graduated in a war anyway, why would it start to bother him later on? His choice to join Dumbledore indicates that he wasn't a heartless crook, but that he did have a good streak, which is why it is felt that he redeemed himself. Even Harry thought so.

My point wasn't that Dumbledore would personally hunt him down. I don't think he would have. My point was that he would be 'back in the hunt' like all the other DEs. Any headway he'd made with respect to rejecting evil would be lost. But apparently, that was enough headway for him to not make that decision at that time. I would not call it a 'good streak' because all the while he was on the good side he was not displaying any good streak except for not going back to Voldemort, imo. I would call it "Snape's evolution in rejecting evil". This was a good process, imo.

Nice allegorical moment there at the end . Aside from not killing and trying not to injure, Snape showed extreme disgust at Dumbledore for putting Snape's own soul at risk just to kill him. We're agreed that he did make the right choices, the only real difference between us is that you don't think he redeemed himself enough.

Actually, I think he made some right choices. However, the choice to adopt Dumbledore's plan regarding Harry was a bad one. His motivation was bad, in part (he loathed Harry) to me, and another part of it showed him to be behaving in as machiavellian a manner as Dumbledore was with respect to that particular issue (the big picture scenario). Yet another part (either some misconstrued version of honoring Lily in this way - that she'd agree with his sending her son to his death (recall Snape believed Harry would die) - or wanting Voldemort dead (for whatever reason) is a part that I cannot make a judgment upon at all since I am not certain what he was thinking in that regard. But overall, it was a wrongful choice, imo. I think he made a couple of others at the end too, that showed aspects of his character that still required reform, imo (like the use of Sectumsempra over a stunner, etc.). And of course, the decision not to attempt character reformation is something that he never even seemed to consider, imo, which was, to me, another bad/wrongful choice. And I explained the other reasons why I don't see him as redeemed.

Hey now, don't make fun of me for not being able to extend the dictionarium. I'm quite happy with English as it is . Must you always need more?

Good job! It is the most importantuos part!

[vampiricduck]

Once again, I've not addressed everything, but sure you know the story by now, we've been doing this long enough!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I agree, and I add that all kids were a victim of circumstance in that way. It is just that Snape'scircumstances were bad. But where we seem to differ slightly is that I feel Snape carried this attitude, behavior and character with him to Hogwarts. You appear to suggest that he left it behind and took up a whole new set of influences in some cases. But I don't think that is true, I think he carried it with him at all times he was there. That same desire to hurt Petunia with the tree branch due to her attitude is the same desire he would have when faced with those feelings at Hogwarts, imo.

I don't, actually. I agree with you. I think he carried all the badness right into Hogwarts with him, where he was further corrupted. I don’t think he took up any new influence, but simply took the ones he had been seeing for years to mind at long last. I think we just had crossed wires here.

They actually said that he was brave - Harry used the superlative. But I disagree that they meant 'inherently' because it not being inherent is what make it remarkable for Snape. JKR said he was inherently vulnerable and insecure, so his bravery in spying was something he actually had to put effort into, imo. I think his natural tendency was to be cowardly - and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but rather because of all of the things that we discussed, Snape's character was such that he avoided situations that would entail bravery generally, imo, and made non-brave decisions a lot of the time (which I can enumerate if you like as there are a lot of them). So that is why when he showed bravery
it was remarkable, imo.

Fair enough, we’ll leave the inherently part out of it. It’s something I was looking at from a different POV which admittedly did leave out much of that! It’s half three in the morning, let me be!

Inherently vulnerable and insecure, fair enough, but none of those is a direct opposition to bravery. I see that he also faced his fears entirely without question, and he chose to face Dumbledore entirely by himself, which does show a streak of bravery that was entirely different to anything we had seen in him before. I think there are some things that took a lot of bravery for him to do. Going alone to Dumbledore was one. Agreeing to be a double agent another. Agreeing to attempt to save Harry Potter a third. Each of those things undoubtedly galled him at first. It’s in these things he was brave. It might be a small amount, but it gave up big things and forced him into a self provided torturous existence. I think that’s a brave thing to do.

Redemption for me requires admission of all wrongs, remorse and repentence and the text does not have Snape himself doing any of these things on page for many of his past wrongs (while a DE). Also, he behaved in an evil manner in my opinion while on the good side which also required redemption but was not had.

I’m terribly sorry, but I disagree completely with this point. Snape literally knelt in front of Dumbledore and begged. First, he begged not to be killed. Then, he begged for Lily’s life. Then, he begged for all three of them to survive. He took the brunt of Dumbledore’s fury, and I think this counts as a big redemptive scene. If he hadn’t been looking for atonement, then why bother going to Dumbledore? It was the biggest acknowledgement of his wrongdoings that he could provide. Try to imagine his shame, kneeling before Dumbledore and literally begging for mercy. I always thought that was very hard hitting. It forced Snape to call a spade a spade and to admit, outwardly, openly, that he had made all those wrong choices. He begged Dumbledore not to tell anybody. I reckon he did it out of further shame for why he had first gone back to Dumbledore in the first place.

And I’m sorry for this too, but what evildoings did he do when he was on the good side? If you mean sending Harry to his death, as you referenced above, I will talk about that later, so there’s no need to answer that if I have the right gist.

This brings up an excellent point: your opinion mitigates, limits and justifies Snape's poor decisions (based on his background, etc.) - some of which I agree with. But your opinion gives Snape full credit and all of the responsibility, culpability and honor for his good decisions. If Snape truly is so profoundly and deeply influenced by his surroundings (like his homelife, Hogwarts life, etc.), then should not we be giving praise and responsibility to McGonagall, Lily, Dumbledore, and all of those good siders Snape was around for Snape's eventual good decisions? He was not entirely responsible for those either under the theory of influence. So Snape should neither suffer full blame nor full honor, but rather just part of the blame for his bad decisions and part of the blame for his good ones.

I do agree with you. Quite frankly, I just think that he picked up on the good somewhere along the way, or maybe he just had it in him all along. Not in spades, granted, but everybody has some bad and good in them I suppose. As for McGonagall, Dumbledore, they were his colleagues after he made the decision to join the good side. I have no referencing whatsoever to say that Dumbledore had anything to do with him in an earlier time, so I can’t use that one. Lily was his main source of goodness, and her goodness attracted him without doubt. She was possibly the singular factor in his choice to come back to the good side anyway. So yes, part blame, part honour. I just think there were more bad influences than good in his life, and I’m not talking randomers in Hogwarts, I’m being very direct and specific.

What does that say about Snape's delve into the Death Eater realm? That it was not purely an autonomous decision, that there were factors that heavily influenced him to fall into that horrible trap. That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. His choice was therefore, not all of his and we cannot say that his soul was truly soiled or behind the decision for the most part. So what does it say about Snape's turn to the good side? That despite it being his choice, it was a choice with him being pushed off of a cliff by his background and other experiences including those that surrounded him. So we cannot really say that his soul was really redeemed or behind his decision for the most part. You follow me?

Honestly? You will not like this answer. It’s tough to explain, I feel like Socrates, but I’ll give it a go and see what happens.

Yes, there were factors leading to him joining the dark. But a factor isn’t what makes a choice. It might push you in a direction, but you and you alone take the physical step. His soul was truly soiled, by those factors, and this is what pushed him to take that step and make that choice, which he alone made, and for which he alone, ultimately, takes responsibility. You can’t expect another thing or person to make a choice for you when you reach a certain age. In this way, Snape is damned.

Equally, there were factors leading him to join the light. But again, though I know we reference that his love for Lily “made him” make the choice, as such it didn’t. It pushed him closer to it, but he alone took the first step. He showed with adequacy that he was well capable of ignoring good things. He also then showed that he was well capable of ignoring bad things. Which is why I say that though there were factors, a person chooses the path to walk, nothing truly chooses it for them. Snape chose alone to go to Dumbledore, and he alone, ultimately, takes the credit for that. In this way, Snape is redeemed.

I know what you’ll say. That contradicts what I just wrote above!
But it doesn’t, necessarily. You won’t be a fan of this, I can tell, but it goes back to the factors. The reason I discuss them is because they add weight to the thoughts of a person, add influences that can aid in decision making. Snape had more bad factors than good in early life. He took them all into account, but he alone took the step to the dark, thus ruining his own life. But he also had Lily as a good factor, the only good major factor he had in that decision making. Later, on discovering her to be in danger, he reassessed the situation. He chose the other way, and he walked that way, based upon the factors he knew.

This is why I cannot truly give Lily honour or Voldemort added disgust for their roles in it. Because their roles had nothing to do with him personally, they wouldn’t have known about them at all in fact. They were factors, and nothing more.

I even agree that Eileen Prince was just a factor. A person chooses entirely for themselves. I don’t blame my parents for the fact that they dislike the government. Even though they also dislike the government, it’s a choice I made entirely by myself to do the same. I take responsibility for that choice. They were only factors.

But in everything like this, factors do add weight to a person’s thoughts. Snape chose his path based on factors. The factors that he had to work with were unbalanced and so this is why I can justify him slightly, but he did alone make his choices. I just say that they sucked as factors go. They certainly helped him make his choice, but they didn’t force him to.

I hope that all makes follow on sense. And since we’re looking at it in such a deep way, it might appear contradictory to things we’ve written before, such as the use of the words “forced”, “made”, etc. But it’s not.

My point wasn't that Dumbledore would personally hunt him down. I don't think he would have. My point was that he would be 'back in the hunt' like all the other DEs. Any headway he'd made with
respect to rejecting evil would be lost. But apparently, that was enough headway for him to not make that decision at that time. I would not call it a 'good streak' because all the while he was on the good side he was not displaying any good streak except for not going back to Voldemort, imo. I would call it "Snape's evolution in rejecting evil". This was a good process, imo.

Fair enough. I recognise it as such, but to me an evolution in rejecting evil is a good streak. They’re interchangeable in my head. They might not be in yours, but rest assured that I do, indeed, agree with you on what exactly that good streak was.

Actually, I think he made some right choices. However, the choice to adopt Dumbledore's plan regarding Harry was a bad one. His motivation was bad, in part (he loathed Harry) to me, and another part of it showed him to be behaving in as machiavellian a manner as Dumbledore was with respect to that particular issue (the big picture scenario). Yet another part (either some misconstrued version of honoring Lily in this way - that she'd agreewith his sending her son to his death (recall Snape believed Harry would die) - or wanting Voldemort dead (for whatever reason) is a part that I cannot make a judgment upon at all since I am not certain what he was thinking in that regard. But overall, it was a wrongful choice, imo. I think he made a couple of others at the end too, that showed aspects of his character that still required reform, imo (like the use of Sectumsempra over a stunner, etc.). And of course, the decision not to attempt character reformation is something that he never even seemed to consider, imo, which was, to me, another bad/wrongful choice. And I explained the other reasons why I don't see him as redeemed.

All I can say to this is that he made a promise which he fully intended to keep. Yes, he’s a Machiavellian kinda guy and his behaviour was definitely savoury toward Harry, because when he looked at him, all he saw was James. It was a poor judgement call. He was unhappy with the plan to send Harry to his death, and I argue (with the knowledge of what he said when Dumbledore told him it) that this was due to the fact that he had given everything to protect Lily Potter’s son, and now he was being told that the boy had to die. That was a cruel trick of Dumbledore’s, and it shows that Dumbledore did indeed use Snape to that end. Definitely some aspects of him still required reform. I won’t argue that he would have reformed them, because I find that unlikely. That’s what makes him an anti hero and a very controversial one at that. But a promise is a promise. Used though he felt, he knew the importance of that promise. He had originally taken it to ensure that he could redeem himself for his past by watching over Harry. By the time he reached its conclusion, everything about it told him that he would never be redeemed by following it through. But a promise is a promise. Aside from that thought, he had a choice between leaving Dumbledore to die by another DE’s hand, or to fulfil both his promise to Dumbledore and his promise to Narcissa. He had already made his choice in this regard. He knew that he would always have to kill Dumbledore, right from the moment he made that choice.

What I don’t know about that one, is whether he made it after talking to Dumbledore about his death, or before. Either way, he again made his choice and he alone takes responsibility for it. The fact that I see it as fulfilling a promise but being bitter about leaving Lily down again, and that you see it differently, comes down to individual opinion

It’s like, 90% aggreance. Ha! That’s my word for this post! The remaining ten lies in personal opinion and little else.

I do hope you enjoy trying to read this. I hope it doesn’t frustrate you too much, but I think we went a bit too deep for a time there. Now you know my entire belief system. Is nothing private with you?!

As for the owl, if I haven't heard from you by Friday night, I'll send you one then. I give it till Friday because we're both in campaigns too. A week off will give us plenty of time to talk about the other issues till the cows come home.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Once again, I've not addressed everything, but sure you know the story by now, we've been doing this long enough!

Ditto.

Inherently vulnerable and insecure, fair enough, but none of those is a direct opposition to bravery. I see that he also faced his fears entirely without question, and he chose to face Dumbledore entirely by himself, which does show a streak of bravery that was entirely different to anything we had seen in him before. I think there are some things that took a lot of bravery for him to do. Going alone to Dumbledore was one. Agreeing to be a double agent another. Agreeing to attempt to save Harry Potter a third. Each of those things undoubtedly galled him at first. It’s in these things he was brave. It might be a small amount, but it gave up big things and forced him into a self provided torturous existence. I think that’s a brave thing to do.

I added something long after I wrote the post that you may have not seen. I will add it here too: As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.

So perhaps that helps to clarify and if that is what you mean, then we are in agreement.

I’m terribly sorry, but I disagree completely with this point. Snape literally knelt in front of Dumbledore and begged. First, he begged not to be killed. Then, he begged for Lily’s life.

I agree. But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted.

Then, he begged for all three of them to survive.

"Hide them all, then" he croaked "Keep her - them - safe" (DH TPT)

is not begging for all three of them to survive in my opinion. It was written just like that, with all of the dashes and stumbling over words. JKR put those in purposely, imo, and following Dumbledore expressing his disgust at Snape which I feel Snape would understand meant Dumbledore was not willing to do a single solitary thing for him if he didn't straighten up. This, above all things, expresses my point clearly and solidly in my view. Snape still did not care about the outcome of James and Harry - but he conceded that he had to 'straighten up', at least verbally, if he wanted Dumbledore's help. And realistically, Snape could not change his Death Eater train of thought so quickly; until that point he was banking on Voldemort to spare her. And JKR said he wouldn't have left the DEs at all if it weren't for Lily being targeted. So his change took time, imo, and it was not reached on the moment in this scene which is what I believe JKR was trying to convey.

He took the brunt of Dumbledore’s fury, and I think this counts as a big redemptive scene.

I see it as Snape's first step toward rejecting evil. He had by no means rejected it yet, imo. He simply rejected that it was the machine that would kill Lily and he didn't want that to happen in my judgment. So it was not a redemptive scene to me, but a first step in that direction - but the staircase was long and he had many steps still to take, imo. This was re-emphasized in the next scene. Snape was distraught when he found out Lily died, but when Dumbledore told him Harry survived, Snape did not express joyous relief that some good had come of his going to Dumbledore. His mind stayed on one track: Lily was dead, which he repeated and then declared he wished he were dead because of that.

As an aside, our understanding of Snape's statement wishing he were dead depended on the readers understanding of death to make it meaningful. And JKR banked on that, imo, to indicate how horrible he felt, and how meaningful the moment was to him. As such, it became a statement to be placed with many others in the category of one of the biggest inconsistencies in HP universe. But I let it slide, after all, JKR is not really a wizard and the inconsistency didn't seem to occur to her throughout her 20 year writing of the series. .

If he hadn’t been looking for atonement, then why bother going to Dumbledore?

To save Lily because he did not trust that Voldemort would spare her, imo. In this way, he got double protection on behalf of Lily. He truly did regret that his action caused Lily to become targeted - but he was not thinking about that, imo, he was thinking about the fact that she was very likely going to die and he wanted to prevent that at all costs.

It was the biggest acknowledgement of his wrongdoings that he could provide. Try to imagine his shame, kneeling before Dumbledore and literally begging for mercy. I always thought that was very hard hitting. It forced Snape to call a spade a spade and to admit, outwardly, openly, that he had made all those wrong choices.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Snape never did any of this based on my interpretation of what I read. He did not kneel and beg for mercy or admit outwardly and openly that he had made all those wrong choices. He admitted that to him, he made one - giving the prophecy - for one reason - Lily was targeted. I am not sure which passage or passages made you feel that Snape was atoning for all of his sins in that moment, perhaps you could highlight them for me?

He begged Dumbledore not to tell anybody. I reckon he did it out of further shame for why he had first gone back to Dumbledore in the first place.

I don't know if shame was his reason or what (although it is a good possibility), but all he asked that Dumbledore not tell was that he had emotions for Lily. Indeed that is all that Dumbledore didn't tell.

And I’m sorry for this too, but what evildoings did he do when he was on the good side? If you mean sending Harry to his death, as you referenced above, I will talk about that later, so there’s no need to answer that if I have the right gist.

That and the fact that imo, he bullied children, abused Harry mentally and physically and mentally tormented others without seeming to have any regret or remorse for those things, imo. This was not just "not nice" to me. I look very seriously on actions taken against kids when one has the power of authority over them and works closely with them. I am appalled that Dumbledore gave him that position, because he should have realized how a person of Snape's character would behave with them, imo, especially Harry in light of the circumstances.

I don't understand the proposition that one can do these types of things and they be brushed aside as if they meant nothing and didn't require regret and remorse. Lucas didn't even try to pull that off with Anakin Skywalker (who you mentioned) - and he was far, far worse - but he admitted in his own words at he end that he had been wrong and that he felt remorse for it. And that despite the fact that Luke told us again and again during the final movie - Lucas realized it had to come from Anakin himself because he'd been Vader and done it all, not Luke. This is what was lacking in Snape's subplot, imo.

Yes, there were factors leading to him joining the dark. But a factor isn’t what makes a choice. It might push you in a direction, but you and you alone take the physical step. His soul was truly soiled, by those factors, and this is what pushed him to take that step and make that choice, which he alone made, and for which he alone, ultimately, takes responsibility. You can’t expect another thing or person to make a choice for you when you reach a certain age. In this way, Snape is damned.

I think that is a fair assessment. However, I feel that JKR was trying to make the idea of "choice" much more autonomous than that in the series. She spoke about "choice" so much in her interviews, it was clear to me how much importance she placed on the idea. The point being, that independent of all of one's influences, when it comes to the point of making a decision, of making that clear choice that will have some impact on your life (big or small), a person truly is on their own. In other words, imo, there is nothing "pushing you in a direction" to the extent that it cannot be easily ignored.

This makes sense to me with Snape because when he was a Death Eater, he had no good influences around him that we know of. Not one. Lily had rejected him completely and to our knowledge based on canon, had not related with him in 5 years. Dumbledore and his other possible good influences, in 3 or thereabouts. But whatever he was feeling inside that made him want to save Lily (even if that feeling was negative in nature) carried the goal of saving her. The goal was contrary to DE policy. . So in that way, this choice was his own to make and he made it, without any influences toward a good goal. Note that back at Hogwarts, Snape was faced with the exact same choice: losing his friend Lily for all intents and purposes forever or doing "something" to keep that friendship. But he didn't pursue the goal in the same way (saving the friendship). It involved the same person, but she was actually in his life at the time, there was no threat on her life or deadly risk to his, which should under the "influences" theory have made it even easier for him to do, imo.

To me, this serves to show that influences are like guideposts, they can show you various ways to go, but they have no means of "pushing you" in a direction - unless you want to go that way. Then you allow them to lead you. See what I mean?

Equally, there were factors leading him to join the light. But again, though I know we reference that his love for Lily “made him” make the choice, as such it didn’t. It pushed him closer to it, but he alone took the first step. He showed with adequacy that he was well capable of ignoring good things. He also then showed that he was well capable of ignoring bad things. Which is why I say that though there were factors, a person chooses the path to walk, nothing truly chooses it for them. Snape chose alone to go to Dumbledore, and he alone, ultimately, takes the credit for that. In this way, Snape is redeemed.

And when it comes to Snape's good decisions, you seem to agree with me... .

I know what you’ll say. That contradicts what I just wrote above!
But it doesn’t, necessarily. You won’t be a fan of this, I can tell, but it goes back to the factors. The reason I discuss them is because they add weight to the thoughts of a person, add influences that can aid in decision making. Snape had more bad factors than good in early life. He took them all into account, but he alone took the step to the dark, thus ruining his own life. But he also had Lily as a good factor, the only good major factor he had in that decision making. Later, on discovering her to be in danger, he reassessed the situation. He chose the other way, and he walked that way, based upon the factors he knew.

This is why I cannot truly give Lily honour or Voldemort added disgust for their roles in it. Because their roles had nothing to do with him personally, they wouldn’t have known about them at all in fact. They were factors, and nothing more.

So maybe you agree with me?

I even agree that Eileen Prince was just a factor. A person chooses entirely for themselves. I don’t blame my parents for the fact that they dislike the government. Even though they also dislike the government, it’s a choice I made entirely by myself to do the same. I take responsibility for that choice. They were only factors.

But in everything like this, factors do add weight to a person’s thoughts. Snape chose his path based on factors. The factors that he had to work with were unbalanced and so this is why I can justify him slightly, but he did alone make his choices. I just say that they sucked as factors go. They certainly helped him make his choice, but they didn’t force him to.

Well there are two points I feel are raised here. First, I don't think the factors add weight, I consider them "guideposts" as I explained above. This leaves Snape to regard them, then decide whether he wants to head in that direction or not. Every influence may point one way or the other, but in the end, the person decides.

This brings us to the second part of this. A person does have some of the decision making into which way the guide posts will turn. Thus, how many are pointing in one direction or the other. Here are a couple of examples: Direct Influence: Lily tells Snape that she detests Mulciber and the dark magic he practiced on her friend Mary. That is an influence, a guidepost as if to say what Mulciber did was bad, wrong, not the way to go or the road to follow - and it points toward the good road. But Snape retorts that "it was just a laugh". So that guidepost remains set in the direction of the dark path, a small decision Snape made with respect to one of his influences. Indirect Influence: James saves Snape from the tunnel. Snape could interpret that as his enemy saving him from the tunnel, despite disliking him and the influence of James act, would point the guidepost to the good side (in terms of not letting anyone die, no matter what you think about them). But Snape chooses to interpret it as James decided to try and murder him and then got cold feet for purely self-serving reasons. Thus the influence, which could have pointed the guidepost to the good side, is pointed at the bad side instead (as Snape's interpretation removes any good influence from the act and influences the notion that one can get away with bad behavior.)

So I have taken a deep dive into this, but with the end of showing that not only are influences guideposts, imo, but those guideposts are shifted in some cases by the person following them. I feel some are more or less set, like the influence of Snape's father and the like, but others are not, imo.

I hope that all makes follow on sense. And since we’re looking at it in such a deep way, it might appear contradictory to things we’ve written before, such as the use of the words “forced”, “made”, etc. But it’s not.

No, I am following you. And the deeper you look at it the more factors come into play. But I don't see it as contradictory, rather as further explanation.

All I can say to this is that he made a promise which he fully intended to keep. Yes, he’s a Machiavellian kinda guy and his behaviour was definitely savoury toward Harry, because when he looked at him, all he saw was James. It was a poor judgement call. He was unhappy with the plan to send Harry to his death, and I argue (with the knowledge of what he said when Dumbledore told him it) that this was due to the fact that he had given everything to protect Lily Potter’s son, and now he was being told that the boy had to die. That was a cruel trick of Dumbledore’s, and it shows that Dumbledore did indeed use Snape to that end.

I disagree to some extent. I don't think Snape was unhappy with the plan in that he couldn't care less that Harry was being sent to his death, imo. (My interpretation of his response: "so the boy must die" - stated calmly). And he never argued that point at all. His entire argument was about his feeling used by this "suprising" person before him: Dumbledore. For me, this was the major revelation of DH and I was as shocked as JKR made Snape act upon hearing Dumbledore's admission. I couldn't believe it of him and I think Snape felt the same way. Not because it was "Harry" - but because it was "Anybody at all" - and Dumbledore's plan was as machiavellian as they come, imo. (Recall one of his ideologies was that people simply have to be sacrificed on occassion - and quite nonchalant about it.) Snape declared he felt used and he should have, imo, because in the end, he was not working toward honoring Lily's sacrifice (the entire point being to save her son), but rather dishonoring it by helping to protect him for Dumbledore's plan to have him slaughtered.

Dumbledore, also the master of manipulation, totally took Snape's mind off of his charges against Dumbledore (which you will note Dumbledore never answered to or even addressed) and asked, 'does this mean you care for the boy' (paraphrase) and Snape comes back with amazement, 'him'? Having believed inside that Dumbledore knew full well the answer to that (and Dumbledore did of course, but it got him out of answering any questions about his behavior ). Then Snape goes on to indicate why he was doing it - for Lily - to honor her sacrifice as he had promised to do. Which of course was what Dumbledore expected to hear, imo. After all he had to that point trusted Snape completely because all along he continued to trust that Snape had emotions for Lily and wished to honor her sacrifice, right? He had no other basis for his firm trust in Snape based on canon, imo. I think if Snape's response had been distinct, Dumbledore would have had to change his plan because if Snape had grown to care for Harry, there was a chance that he would not pass on Dumbledore's message. But as it turned out, Snape confirmed what Dumbledore believed and that meant his plan - all of it including the possible negative end for Snape - was still a 'go'. I think what was likely to befall Snape was what moved him to tear up at that point.

As for the owl, if I haven't heard from you by Friday night, I'll send you one then. I give it till Friday because we're both in campaigns too. A week off will give us plenty of time to talk about the other issues till the cows come home.

That's fine, I have work to do on top of it for school too, and I am sure your real life takes precedence as well, . But luckily, the book isn't going anywhere, so whenever we get to it is fine.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I added something long after I wrote the post that you may have not seen. I will add it here too: As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.

Will answer in the Neville thread.

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by WickedWickedBoy

But then how do I justify Sirius? Like Zara (whose quote is also there), I figured he had good influences of his aunt and uncle. But the thing is, if Andromeda was prattling off a bunch of anti-Black beliefs, they would not have her over much, nor would they approve of either of their children going to her home. So she couldn't have been around all that much. And as for his uncle; Sirius was surprised that his uncle had left him money. So he couldn't have had a great relationship with him or the legacy would have been understandable to him. In any case, he certainly was inculcated with more negative beliefs (defined Slytherin/Voldemort/pureblood ideologies) than anything else. So environment is not entirely relevant - although it is to some degree as we see Sirius had a recklesness and a dangerous attitude at times. But he was also a rebel and that may have played into it also.

I think that this analysis assumes that Sirius Black was fighting the Pureblood supremecy beliefs even before he goes off to Hogwarts. Personally, I think it would be much more logical to assume that, until he got to Hogwarts, he-- more or less-- agreed with his parents.

I think he was railing against his family, but not because of their beliefs, but for more traditional teenaged reasons. They were putting pressure on him, as the Heir to the Black family, to succeed and basically be this ideal version of what a Pureblood wizard should be. Any child would try to back away from this, and rebel against this strict ruling.

I don't have the books with me, but in DH I seem to recall Sirius was basically resigned to the fact that he would be in Slytherin. He wasn't loudly declaring his contempt for it, but just sort of shrugging and going along. As if, he didn't really want to be in it, but saw no other real alternative.

But being with James Potter changed him. I would think it logical that Sirius Black slowly turned against his parents beliefs because of his contact with James Potter, and the beliefs that James brought with him to Hogwarts.

Although, granted, this is just speculation. We don't have much from JKR to go by, really. But, this seems as logical (if not moreso) a reason for Sirius' rebellion than any other. I just can't see him having any outside contact with Andromedia, or any other non-Pureblood Wizards. At least, not enough contact for him to start questioning his families beliefs.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I added something long after I wrote the post that you may have not seen. I will add it here too: As an example of how I mean it as an attribute, rather than a put down; Neville was like this, imo. I feel he came off as cowardly in general which made his showing at the DOM and when he attacked Nagini, immensely brave. Now compare that to Harry, who I feel did so many brave things that by the time he bravely faced Voldemort, we expected no less. So it does not mean Snape (and Neville) don't do brave things, just that it is not the norm for their characters as written.

Yup, that's all good. But you're right, I hadn't sen it after you edited it. Sorry about that!

I agree. But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted

"I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. It does show a huge emotional response to the entire bomb blast, and outside of that, it also shows that he is sorry. Only a person very sorry for themselves says such a thing. Especially when he wasn't exactly known for humbling experiences. I realise that it likely won't qualify for you, our thoughts on redemption are too different, but that's what I analyze as being sorry for something.

"Hide them all, then" he croaked "Keep her - them - safe" (DH TPT)
is not begging for all three of them to survive in my opinion. It was written just like that, with all of the dashes and stumbling over words. JKR put those in purposely, imo, and following Dumbledore expressing his disgust at Snape which I feel Snape would understand meant Dumbledore was not willing to do a single solitary thing for him if he didn't straighten up. This, above all things, expresses my point clearly and solidly in my view. Snape still did not care about the outcome of James and Harry - but he conceded that he had to 'straighten up', at least verbally, if he wanted Dumbledore's help. And realistically, Snape could not change his Death Eater train of thought so quickly; until that point he was banking on Voldemort to spare her. And JKR said he wouldn't have left the DEs at all if it weren't for Lily being targeted. So his change took time, imo, and it was not reached on the moment in this scene which is what I believe JKR was trying to convey.

I do take this on board as a point that supports your view, and I can't argue much with it other than to say that no, he didn't reach the epitome of his remorse at that point. I think that happened as time went on. He showed the beginnings of sorrow here, definitely. And as he realised that Dumbledore had nothing but contempt for him, I think (and this is only a thought, based on nothing but my own interpretation of "The Prince's Tale"), that he saw a harsh truth. Dumbledore wasn't exactly known for hating people, and he really seemed to detest Snape at that time.

Adding to that, I think the fact that later, Snape felt he had proved himself adequately enough to Dumbledore that he resented not being trusted further proves the point- my point, that is. Snape was definitely sorry for what he had done. Otherwise, he would not have wished to impress Dumbledore so much. He wouldn't have tried too hard, but merely done his job, whereas instead it comes across that he really wanted to be trusted by Dumbledore. He was willing to do anything to atone for what he had previously been a part of. Admittedly the fact that it all began with Lily makes great sense. When she died, I think Snape had a difficult choice to make. He could easily have let the old anger take over him, but he must have been truly sorry to say that what occurred was different.

I see it as Snape's first step toward rejecting evil. He had by no means rejected it yet, imo. He simply rejected that it was the machine that would kill Lily and he didn't want that to happen in my judgment. So it was not a redemptive scene to me, but a first step in that direction - but the staircase was long and he had many steps still to take, imo. This was re-emphasized in the next scene. Snape was distraught when he found out Lily died, but when Dumbledore told him Harry survived, Snape did not express joyous relief that some good had come of his going to Dumbledore. His mind stayed on one track: Lily was dead, which he repeated and then declared he wished he were dead because of that.

All this is true. But be honest about it. Who thinks logically in a time like that? He later came to realise that doing whatever he could might help him to make things right. I don't see any other reason for it that makes sense, I don't see any other more powerful reason other than that he was intensely sorry. In the same way, I think this is why he still watched out for Harry, even when called a coward, even when insulted, even being a suspect at all times. He brought that on himself. He could have made it better. He could have allowed Dumbledore to tell the world about "The best" of him. So why didn't he? I think that, since Dumbledore said this, Dumbledore and I agree.
Similarly, I don't see why one would say they want to die unless they were seriously regretting their life.

As an aside, our understanding of Snape's statement wishing he were dead depended on the readers understanding of death to make it meaningful. And JKR banked on that, imo, to indicate how horrible he felt, and how meaningful the moment was to him.

I know this might deviate a bit from course, but what's the inconsistency here? I've not seen it! Enlighten me!

To save Lily because he did not trust that Voldemort would spare her, imo. In this way, he got double protection on behalf of Lily. He truly did regret that his action caused Lily to become targeted - but he was not thinking about that, imo, he was thinking about the fact that she was very likely going to die and he wanted to prevent that at all costs.

Well, the first part of this is canon and is true. He did indeed also regret his part of an action that would put her in danger. I just don't think he had the ulterior motive of seeking to save his own skin. I think he was too traumatised to think that through. Quite frankly, he seemed to not care about himself any longer, and he seemed to truly hate himself, again shown by him saying he wished he were dead.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Snape never did any of this based on my interpretation of what I read. He did not kneel and beg for mercy or admit outwardly and openly that he had made all those wrong choices. He admitted that to him, he made one - giving the prophecy - for one reason - Lily was targeted. I am not sure which passage or passages made you feel that Snape was atoning for all of his sins in that moment, perhaps you could highlight them for me?

Not all in that moment, no. I think it was the beginning of a long stretch for him, though admittedly I did write otherwise. I should have included the words "begin to" before admit. I thought I had actually, but nevertheless. We do agree on this, I just messed up my typing!

But he did beg for mercy. On his knees he said "Don't kill me!" When Dumbledore claimed that this would not happen, he then said "I-I come with a warning-no, a request-please...". If we're going to discuss JK Rowling's care in writing her dialogue, then this is one of the moments where Snape shows a spark of sorrow. First, he changed his mind. It wasn't a warning, he came to beg and he knew it. So he begged. He even said "please".

To add to that, when he knew that this wasn't something he would get for nothing, and when asked what he would give in return, he thought about leaving it go, letting her die. But instead, the horror of it got to whatever conscience he had. When asked, he said "Anything".

It brings up an interesting point. Later, when Lily was dead, though he had not yet given "Anything", Dumbledore had not seen his side of the bargain fulfilled either. Not his fault, but nonetheless. Her death was not truly Snape's fault in this way. It was Pettigrew's fault. The Potters were already members of the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort would already have wanted them dead surely? It makes sense then, that Snape cannot take full responsibility for this. Sure, he told Voldemort the prophecy. Had he thought it referred to Lily, he never would have uttered a word, to be sure.

I don't know if shame was his reason or what (although it is a good possibility), but all he asked that Dumbledore not tell was that he had emotions for Lily. Indeed that is all that Dumbledore didn't tell.

But is that all Dumbledore didn't tell? He also never told that Snape had sworn to protect Harry, sworn that no matter what happened, he would protect Harry. Snape didn't want anybody to know this either. Why would Snape stop him from saying that? I think he was ashamed of what he had done, of his part in spying that was a factor in Lily's death. But I don't see why he would want the truth about his guardian status not told. It would be an honorable thing to have been entrusted, surely?

That and the fact that imo, he bullied children, abused Harry mentally and physically and mentally tormented others without seeming to have any regret or remorse for those things, imo. This was not just "not nice" to me. I look very seriously on actions taken against kids when one has the power of authority over them and works closely with them. I am appalled that Dumbledore gave him that position, because he should have realized how a person of Snape's character would behave with them, imo, especially Harry in light of the circumstances.

But again, no parent that we know of ever complained. Snape made everybody work really hard, he accepted nothing less than the best. Admittedly he was cruel, dislikable (new word! Wuhoo!), and downright mean. So he wasn't the nicest person. But he was never, that we know of, complained about. It was just agreed that he was rather cruel. Which I agree with.

I think that is a fair assessment. However, I feel that JKR was trying to make the idea of "choice" much more autonomous than that in the series. She spoke about "choice" so much in her interviews, it was clear to me how much importance she placed on the idea. The point being, that independent of all of one's influences, when it comes to the point of making a decision, of making that clear choice that will have some impact on your life (big or small), a person truly is on their own. In other words, imo, there is nothing "pushing you in a direction" to the extent that it cannot be easily ignored.

I agree with all of this except "easily". Some factors are easier to ignore than others. But nonetheless, yes, a person makes their choice entirely by their onesies, no doubt about it. They alone take responsibility for that.

This makes sense to me with Snape because when he was a Death Eater, he had no good influences around him that we know of. Not one. Lily had rejected him completely and to our knowledge based on canon, had not related with him in 5 years. Dumbledore and his other possible good influences, in 3 or thereabouts. But whatever he was feeling inside that made him want to save Lily (even if that feeling was negative in nature) carried the goal of saving her. The goal was contrary to DE policy. . So in that way, this choice was his own to make and he made it, without any influences toward a good goal. Note that back at Hogwarts, Snape was faced with the exact same choice: losing his friend Lily for all intents and purposes forever or doing "something" to keep that friendship. But he didn't pursue the goal in the same way (saving the friendship). It involved the same person, but she was actually in his life at the time, there was no threat on her life or deadly risk to his, which should under the "influences" theory have made it even easier for him to do, imo.

Yes, we;re agreeing so far at least. I think this adds honour to his character, personally.

To me, this serves to show that influences are like guideposts, they can show you various ways to go, but they have no means of "pushing you" in a direction - unless you want to go that way. Then you allow them to lead you. See what I mean?

Yes, that's also true.

And when it comes to Snape's good decisions, you seem to agree with me... .

I agree with you for the most part on these, yes.

So maybe you agree with me?

For all intents and purposes, yes. We are probably 98% in agreement regarding Severus Snape, where his character comes from, how it was built, when and how. But there are still limits!!

So I have taken a deep dive into this, but with the end of showing that not only are influences guideposts, imo, but those guideposts are shifted in some cases by the person following them. I feel some are more or less set, like the influence of Snape's father and the like, but others are not, imo.

No, I am following you. And the deeper you look at it the more factors come into play. But I don't see it as contradictory, rather as further explanation.

I do agree with you here. A person chooses which ones to follow also. That is essentially what aids them in taking that infamous step. Yes. And I'm only delighted that it makes sense. It's just that those things have taught mt about Snape, everything about him that I can possibly know, and in my head I think he redeemed himself quite enough for me to like him in the most general sense there is.

I disagree to some extent. I don't think Snape was unhappy with the plan in that he couldn't care less that Harry was being sent to his death, imo. (My interpretation of his response: "so the boy must die" - stated calmly). And he never argued that point at all. His entire argument was about his feeling used by this "suprising" person before him: Dumbledore. For me, this was the major revelation of DH and I was as shocked as JKR made Snape act upon hearing Dumbledore's admission. I couldn't believe it of him and I think Snape felt the same way. Not because it was "Harry" - but because it was "Anybody at all" - and Dumbledore's plan was as machiavellian as they come, imo. (Recall one of his ideologies was that people simply have to be sacrificed on occassion - and quite nonchalant about it.) Snape declared he felt used and he should have, imo, because in the end, he was not working toward honoring Lily's sacrifice (the entire point being to save her son), but rather dishonoring it by helping to protect him for Dumbledore's plan to have him slaughtered.

Yes, Snape did say "So the boy must die" quite calmly. But a few seconds later,

quote Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified. "You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?"

I think he was unhappy about sending Harry to his death, and I do maintain this. Not so much, as you say, because he liked Harry, since he clearly did not, but because it forced his entire purpose for the last 17 years into redundancy. I'd be pretty annoyed too. Otherwise, I agree with everything you've said, but to add to my own reasoning, I used this:

quote "But this is touching Severus", said Dumbledore seriously. "Have you grown to care for the boy after all?" "For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!" From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: she landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears. "After all this time?" "Always." said Snape.

He didn't want to send Harry to his death, because it made him believe that he would be dishonouring the one thing he had tried to make up to her.

Dumbledore, also the master of manipulation, totally took Snape's mind off of his charges against Dumbledore (which you will note Dumbledore never answered to or even addressed) and asked, 'does this mean you care for the boy' (paraphrase) and Snape comes back with amazement, 'him'? Having believed inside that Dumbledore knew full well the answer to that (and Dumbledore did of course, but it got him out of answering any questions about his behavior ). Then Snape goes on to indicate why he was doing it - for Lily - to honor her sacrifice as he had promised to do. Which of course was what Dumbledore expected to hear, imo. After all he had to that point trusted Snape completely because all along he continued to trust that Snape had emotions for Lily and wished to honor her sacrifice, right? He had no other basis for his firm trust in Snape based on canon, imo. I think if Snape's response had been distinct, Dumbledore would have had to change his plan because if Snape had grown to care for Harry, there was a chance that he would not pass on Dumbledore's message. But as it turned out, Snape confirmed what Dumbledore believed and that meant his plan - all of it including the possible negative end for Snape - was still a 'go'. I think what was likely to befall Snape was what moved him to tear up at that point.

I humbly disagree with you, based simply on what we have read, which I provided above. I disagree, first and foremost, that Dumbledore asked simply to get out of answering questions. He knew he was manipulative and just as cruel as other people. He didn't have to justify that, he knew he never could. I genuinely believe that he asked simply because he didn't believe, after 17 years, that Snape would still love Lily. I also believe that he trusted Snape for a number of further reasons, the most prominent of these being that he had proved he could keep that promise. It was the proof, time and again, that cemented Dumbledore's faith, in my opinion.

Snape would still have followed through with the plan, he had shown that he was not going to waver thus far. I think what upset Dumbledore (not that it has much to do with this, generally ) is that he simply never thought it possible that Snape would still care so much. It was, after all, so very out of character for the Snape we knew so well.

(As an aside, there is one other part which relates to this. My question about it is as follows. Remember when we saw the flashback that had Snape healing Dumbledore? Did that happen before or after he had made that binding promise with Narcissa? I'm not sure that we know, and I think it would make quite a difference, but I'd like to find out first.)

EDIT: zgirnius was just kind enough to tell me that this is true, that Snape did make the Unbreakable Vow after talking to Dumbledore. This means that he accepted fully his responsibility and had no doubts about carrying it through. He was determined from the off, despite not being too pleased with it, that he would fulfill his promise to Dumbledore. Which, to me, shows that he was always going to follow through on this promise. Snape had shown his worth more than once, which is my reading of this. Just a side note that adds to above.. Further explanation, if you will!

That's fine, I have work to do on top of it for school too, and I am sure your real life takes precedence as well, . But luckily, the book isn't going anywhere, so whenever we get to it is fine.

Well, we'd like to think my real life takes precedence, wouldn't we?
This took the best part of seven hours, so apologies if it's stilted in any way. Things got a bit hectic at about four different points during it!

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

I think that this analysis assumes that Sirius Black was fighting the Pureblood supremecy beliefs even before he goes off to Hogwarts. Personally, I think it would be much more logical to assume that, until he got to Hogwarts, he-- more or less-- agreed with his parents.

Actually we were not speaking about that issue, so I wasn't attempting to assert that particular fact as true. I was speaking solely of the influences Sirius had in his home at #12 G prior to coming to Hogwarts. The fact is, he did not end up in Slytherin, whereas everyone else in the series inculcated with those types of beliefs when young did (that we were shown and know about for certain.)

I think he was railing against his family, but not because of their beliefs, but for more traditional teenaged reasons. They were putting pressure on him, as the Heir to the Black family, to succeed and basically be this ideal version of what a Pureblood wizard should be. Any child would try to back away from this, and rebel against this strict ruling.

Well Draco, in the exact same situation didn't back away from it. He embraced it, so I don't feel we can conclude that 'any child' would try to back away from this at 11 prior to attendence.

I don't have the books with me, but in DH I seem to recall Sirius was basically resigned to the fact that he would be in Slytherin. He wasn't loudly declaring his contempt for it, but just sort of shrugging and going along. As if, he didn't really want to be in it, but saw no other real alternative.

Actually that is not true, imo. Sirius bemoaned the fact that all of his family had been in Slytherin (unsmiling) and after James joked him back into a better humor, he grinned and said, "maybe I'll break the tradition..."

So I feel that Sirius was already hoping to end up somewhere else. We don't know why.

But being with James Potter changed him. I would think it logical that Sirius Black slowly turned against his parents beliefs because of his contact with James Potter, and the beliefs that James brought with him to Hogwarts.

Well you can't have Sirius both being a serious rebel and an easily influenced follower all at once, imo. He proved throughout his time in the series that he was a rebel and I feel that while the opinion of James (his new friend) might have caused him to think in terms of Gryffindor, I think he would have been satisfied being placed anywhere except Slytherin. That was like Harry, who after speaking to Ron was dead set against Slytherin, but he didn't care where he went - altough he was happy enough to be placed in Gryffindor with his new friend. .

In contrast, Snape was decided on Slytherin before stepping on the train. It is highly possible that his mother influenced him in that direction (although he may have been motivated by some other source.) But the previous influences are shown here to have had an impact on Snape, whereas, they did not have a similarly strong impact on Sirius. (And this is true for Draco, Ron, James, the Twins and others - their influences were also strong found them desiring specific houses.)

Although, granted, this is just speculation. We don't have much from JKR to go by, really. But, this seems as logical (if not moreso) a reason for Sirius' rebellion than any other. I just can't see him having any outside contact with Andromedia, or any other non-Pureblood Wizards. At least, not enough contact for him to start questioning his families beliefs.

I would respectfully disagree that it would be logical for a person of Sirius' character to follow along after a person he'd just met. (Note they had not been on the train very long when we came upon them). Sirius displayed aggressive behavior when challenged and didn't seem at all inhibited when it came to spelling things out, even for his new friend. I think it more reasonable that he would have made the determination to break the mold prior to arriving on the train. But I don't think he had a decided predilection for another house or he would have said so, imo.

Snape was in a different mindset however; he appeared to know where he wanted to go and seemed certain he would be placed in Slytherin. Otherwise I doubt he'd tell Lily she'd better be in that house because what good would that do if he was placed elsewhere? . So Snape responded in a stronger fashion to any influences he had in that regard, imo, like many others. Sirius, was the anomoly in the story in that regard. But I think it was important to show Sirius as an exception because JKR wished to account for varied circumstances. Not every child who grew up with staunch Slytherin parents was going to fold under their desires nor acceed to them. Some kids with minds of their own and perhaps a rebel spirit, would not do so.

But another important idea is that the hat can read the soul/heart/mind of the students and places them where they will best be sorted. So even if Sirius hadn't wanted Slytherin with all of his heart, but he best pertained to that house, he would have likely been sorted there anyway. I say this because I would imagine that Lily, knowing nothing about the house system, likely sat there wishing to be placed in Slytherin so she could be with her friend. However, the hat was like 'no go' . Although, Lily couldn't have really 'meant' it very much as she would have no idea what she was talking about and the hat would see that in her soul also. Harry was an anomoly because he actually had the soul piece inside of him and could go either way (that of his parents or Voldemort). So Sirius I don't think could have sat there saying "NOT SLYTHERIN!" and had much hope for success, unless he really meant it - because then it would be in his soul/heart as well, imv. Snape would have meant it if he was wishing for Slytherin though, and so the hat would see that and sort him accordingly, imo.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

(As an aside, there is one other part which relates to this. My question about it is as follows. Remember when we saw the flashback that had Snape healing Dumbledore? Did that happen before or after he had made that binding promise with Narcissa? I'm not sure that we know, and I think it would make quite a difference, but I'd like to find out first.)

We know for a fact. He made the Unbreakable Vow, only after he agreed to kill Albus. In "Spinner's End", HBP, he refers to an injury Albus has recently sustained - the very one he had tried to heal, though of course he would not tell Bella THAT.

[wimblemimble]

Well Draco, in the exact same situation didn't back away from it. He embraced it, so I don't feel we can conclude that 'any child' would try to back away from this at 11 prior to attendence.

True, to say 'any child' is being overly vague. But knowing Sirius' character, it wouldn't be hard to assume this sort of a reaction from him.

Actually that is not true, imo. Sirius bemoaned the fact that all of his family had been in Slytherin (unsmiling) and after James joked him back into a better humor, he grinned and said, "maybe I'll break the tradition..."

So I feel that Sirius was already hoping to end up somewhere else. We don't know why.

But, the difference is that Sirius isn't activly seeking a different House. He is just hoping for it.

Well you can't have Sirius both being a serious rebel and an easily influenced follower all at once, imo. He proved throughout his time in the series that he was a rebel and I feel that while the opinion of James (his new friend) might have caused him to think in terms of Gryffindor,

I don't think he was easily influenced or a follower. Rather, I think he was already forming a rather dismal view of his family, and any reason to perputate that belief was grasped willingly.

But another important idea is that the hat can read the soul/heart/mind of the students and places them where they will best be sorted. So even if Sirius hadn't wanted Slytherin with all of his heart, but he best pertained to that house, he would have likely been sorted there anyway. I say this because I would imagine that Lily, knowing nothing about the house system, likely sat there wishing to be placed in Slytherin so she could be with her friend. However, the hat was like 'no go'

I think Canon refutes this point many times, and shows Harry to not be the anomoly, but the general rule. At the end of DH Harry tells his son that the Hat is likely to take your opinions into consideration, and Hermione says that the Hat considered placing her in Ravenclaw and implies (I believe) that she asked otherwise. There is Albus' comment of 'sometimes we sort too soon' as well. Overall, I don't think the Hat focuses only on your actual character, but on the character you strive for.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

Overall, I don't think the Hat focuses only on your actual character, but on the character you strive for.

Agreed. The hat definitely seems to think the qualities you value are a big factor in where it will put you.

It also explains how one of the most cowardly characters in HP, Peter Pettigrew, wound up in Gryffindor. By saying that he was never big and strong like Sirius and James in PoA, he is implying that he, in fact, wanted to be strong at one point. He may have thought hiding behind strong people gave him some strength as well.

To bring this back to Snape, the idea also applies to him. Severus could have been sorted anywhere. He was brilliant, cunning enough to outwit Voldemort, incredibly loyal to Dumbledore and the memory of Lily, and was "the bravest man [Harry] ever knew". But as a child, he was raised in neglect and poverty and it is suggested that as a boy, he spent a lot of time looking toward his future prospects. He wanted to become someone powerful. Slytherin, then, had the qualities he aspired to, and that's where he was sorted.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

True, to say 'any child' is being overly vague. But knowing Sirius' character, it wouldn't be hard to assume this sort of a reaction from him.

In your opinion, but I feel that Sirius was stridently against being placed in Slytherin in defiance of his parents and what they stood for. As you mention below, it takes your choice and the character you strive for into consideration. That would include something you really want but won't admit, imo.

I think Canon refutes this point many times, and shows Harry to not be the anomoly, but the general rule. At the end of DH Harry tells his son that the Hat is likely to take your opinions into consideration, and Hermione says that the Hat considered placing her in Ravenclaw and implies (I believe) that she asked otherwise. There is Albus' comment of 'sometimes we sort too soon' as well. Overall, I don't think the Hat focuses only on your actual character, but on the character you strive for.

I don't know which of my points you are refuting because I agree with this. . My only additional point was that if someone like Lily is sitting there wanting to be in Slytherin just because her friend has gone there, it isn't going to take that into consideration because it has nothing to do with the person themselves, imo.

[wimblemimble]

I don't know which of my points you are refuting because I agree with this. . My only additional point was that if someone like Lily is sitting there wanting to be in Slytherin just because her friend has gone there, it isn't going to take that into consideration because it has nothing to do with the person themselves, imo.

After re-reading your original post, I think I just misinterpreted what you meant the first time. :P Sorry about that.

However, the only flaw I can see is that Lily was sorted long before Severus was. The sad look she gave him was most likely because she realized she had been sorted into the House with Sirius (he would have gone before her) and the one Potter wanted. :/ As for whether it would take your opinions based on a friendship, I'm not entirly sure. Frankly, the whole sorting system seems to be rather contrived and random. Does it matter more your potential or your past? Does your ideal person matter more than the one you are likely to become? Just how much about you does the Hat learn? Does it find information that even you don't quite know?

And of course, this is entirly off-topic. I'm afraid I've been driving the whole thread off-topic this whole time, as I tend to forget what thread I'm in. /lame

[wingardium713]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

My only additional point was that if someone like Lily is sitting there wanting to be in Slytherin just because her friend has gone there, it isn't going to take that into consideration because it has nothing to do with the person themselves, imo.

Lily was sorted before Snape (they do it in alphabetical order of last name. Evans before Snape).

Why wouldn't Snape be like Lily, though? If Lily wanting to be in Slytherian because her friend wants to be there won't count to the Hat, then why should Snape's desire to go in Slytherin count to the Hat? If he wants to be in there because his mother was, that is no better than wanting to be in the same house as your friend. If it is because he knows what Slytherin is all about and that's what he wants to be, it would appear that he is wrong about Slytherin. He seems to imply on the train that Slytherins are brainy, so if that's the attraction, the Hat should have stuffed him in Ravenclaw.

So, what exactly went on during that Sorting? Did Snape really know about the characteristics of Slytherin (and lie to Lily) or was he honestly mistaken? Would the sorting Hat take in consideration your preferences if you had a mistaken opinion of the house? Or did his comments on "brawny vs. brainy" not really apply to "Gryffindor vs. Slytherin" in his mind?

When Lily was sorted into Gryffindor (long before Snape was sorted into Slytherin so he had time to think about it), why did Snape not decide to go into Gryffindor? Is this the first indication that we get that Snape will chose Slytherin/Ambition over Lily? Or did he consider going into Gryffindor and we are just not told about it and was he was over-ruled by the hat?

I wonder what the Hat sang that year and if that changed anybody's (e.g. Lily's) mind about which house to be sorted in.

I'm honestly a bit confused about what went on there and I'm not sure if we could ever have a definitive answer.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

"I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. It does show a huge emotional response to the entire bomb blast, and outside of that, it also shows that he is sorry. Only a person very sorry for themselves says such a thing. Especially when he wasn't exactly known for humbling experiences. I realise that it likely won't qualify for you, our thoughts on redemption are too different, but that's what I analyze as being sorry for something.

"I wish I were dead" - and indeed many statements made in canon often turn on a fallacy when stated by a member of the wizard world. Here, for example, Snape wishing he was dead was tantamount to wishing he was where Lily was in the afterworld which would be awful (James is there too) so a wizard would not make such a statement. This is an old flaw brought out by readers ages ago when JKR first had a ghost reveal knowledge of the afterworld. The question then of course was: why doesn't Harry just let himself be killed and he can be with his parents? Let the wizards worry about their own earthly wizard world problems!! .

But before you argue any points in the above paragraph, note I am tongue in cheek there because that is the flaw in JKR's plan that I figure she did not take into consideration. So I agree with you that she meant us to see it as an emotional outcry that symbolizes all we as earthly humans would normally understand it to mean. In that light, I see it as Snape being sorry also. But I do not know what in that scene makes you think he is sorry for "everything". He only appeared to be sorry for his act which lead to Lily's death. He didn't care that Harry survived, he didn't care that James died and he mentioned nothing about all of the others that had died when he was a DE. Further, when Dumbledore asked for his promise to help, Snape declared he would, but not to tell anyone the reason why he was helping "especially not Potter's son". To me that flat out says that Snape's promise to help is specifically not done for either James or Harry - only for Lily. As if that is all he has to worry about making up for. So maybe if you explain more I can understand how you see this more comprehensively as that was my impression from the reading.

Adding to that, I think the fact that later, Snape felt he had proved himself adequately enough to Dumbledore that he resented not being trusted further proves the point- my point, that is. Snape was definitely sorry for what he had done. Otherwise, he would not have wished to impress Dumbledore so much. He wouldn't have tried too hard, but merely done his job, whereas instead it comes across that he really wanted to be trusted by Dumbledore. He was willing to do anything to atone for what he had previously been a part of. Admittedly the fact that it all began with Lily makes great sense. When she died, I think Snape had a difficult choice to make. He could easily have let the old anger take over him, but he must have been truly sorry to say that what occurred was different.

I respect your view. However, my impression was that Snape had always quested to be a powerful man and for acclaim. Now one can say that after the big emotional breakdown, he lost that desire. But I don't buy it. His actions in POA when he was told he would receive the Merlin were written so as to make it exaggeratedly evident that Snape was receving something he desired very much - I mean that he behaved in a boastful, arrogant and preening way (just to be clear). Snape, in my view, wanted to be Dumbledore's #1 man; the most trusted, the only one in his complete confidence - the proverbial right hand man, imo. Dumbledore knew this, imo, and he manipulated Snape a bit in that regard, imo, to make him feel as if that was well on the way to happening. The truth of course was that Dumbledore had no right hand men and took no one completely into his confidence, imj. That was Voldemort's game and he also played it well, strategically moving Snape into that position, imo.

So that is why Dumbledore's trust was important to Snape, imo. But he wanted far more than trust, because Dumbledore readily admitted to everyone (and this was repeated directly to Snape in OOTP by Sirius) - that he trusted Snape. So Snape knew that. What he wanted was to be in Dumbledore's confidence which was why he became upset when he felt Dumbledore was sharing things with Harry an not with him.

But I do not think that it was wrong of Snape to want to get ahead - I mean after all, was he supposed to quest to be #15 on the list? He set his sights high and I don't see anything wrong with that. The problem was twofold. Snape was not a humble man and his arrogance caused him to respond very poorly when what he set his sights on seemed to be slipping away or was snatched away - and that is not a good trait, in my view. In addition, together with wanting to get ahead, Snape desired acclaim (yes the very attention seeking he accused Harry of) and that part of it was not a good trait, imo.

All this is true. But be honest about it. Who thinks logically in a time like that? He later came to realise that doing whatever he could might help him to make things right. I don't see any other reason for it that makes sense, I don't see any other more powerful reason other than that he was intensely sorry. In the same way, I think this is why he still watched out for Harry, even when called a coward, even when insulted, even being a suspect at all times. He brought that on himself. He could have made it better. He could have allowed Dumbledore to tell the world about "The best" of him. So why didn't he? I think that, since Dumbledore said this, Dumbledore and I agree. Similarly, I don't see why one would say they want to die unless they were seriously regretting their life.

You and I are in agreement that he was sorry. I think our discrepancy is merely what he was sorry about. I feel he limited it to Lily his entire life. I cannot be sold the proposition that a person can be sorry for bringing devastation onto another and then badmouth them to their face - I'm sorry - I just can't. It makes absolutely no sense to me. This was not a matter of simple negative comments; the bad mouthing I refer to includes the lies, 1/2 lies, and character misconstruction Snape flung at Harry about him. Why this is so bad? Because of the effect it had on Harry and because Snape knew, prior to saying it, it would have that effect, imo. So I am to believe that Snape intentionally set out to mentally hurt and injure the person he supposedly had remorse and regret for? I don't buy it, not for a second. You couldn't sell me that proposition for negative dollars . Not that you are trying to of course, but I mean in general, I cannot be convinced of that. And even if in general Snape had no respect for the dead, regret and remorse would cause one to have respect for the dead we helped to murder, imo, and he did not, imo. So since that is my very firm opinion, if you disagree, we would have to just agree to disagree on this.

Well, the first part of this is canon and is true. He did indeed also regret his part of an action that would put her in danger. I just don't think he had the ulterior motive of seeking to save his own skin. I think he was too traumatised to think that through. Quite frankly, he seemed to not care about himself any longer, and he seemed to truly hate himself, again shown by him saying he wished he were dead.

I am not sure how 'saving his own skin' comes into it. Can you clarify? I wasn't meaning to suggest that if that is what you mean. I don't think he went to both in order to save his own skin. I think he went to both to ensure Lily would be saved at all costs.

But he did beg for mercy. On his knees he said "Don't kill me!" When Dumbledore claimed that this would not happen, he then said "I-I come with a warning-no, a request-please...". If we're going to discuss JK Rowling's care in writing her dialogue, then this is one of the moments where Snape shows a spark of sorrow. First, he changed his mind. It wasn't a warning, he came to beg and he knew it. So he begged. He even said "please".

Oh I am not saying he didn't beg. He certainly did, I saw the whole beginning of the conversation as one big effort in begging. But he was begging for Dumbledore to keep Lily safe. Honestly I don't think Snape believed Dumbledore would kill him, but of course he had to be certain . Dumbledore had disarmed him.

To add to that, when he knew that this wasn't something he would get for nothing, and when asked what he would give in return, he thought about leaving it go, letting her die. But instead, the horror of it got to whatever conscience he had. When asked, he said "Anything".

He showed surprise when Dumbledore asked, but I thought it was because Snape felt he had already given something - he'd given Dumbledore information. This is a very, very, key, very, very important part of this scene. You see, Snape had given Dumbledore very important information, so all that was left (if you read this on the face) was for Dumbledore to give Snape something in return - his promise to protect. But you see, Dumbledore is a fantastic manipulator. And when he asks Snape what he would do for him in return - it dawned on Snape that Dumbledore was asking for something in return for his personal request: to keep Lily safe. That is why he said "Anything".

Dumbledore never said that in so many words, but Snape understood Dumbledore to mean that, imo, that is why his first words to Dumbledore after Lily died were: "you promised to keep her safe." But that is not what Dumbledore promised. He had promised to "hide them all" and nothing else. But to Snape, he took that extra bit of Dumbledore asking what he would do for him to mean that Dumbledore was going to put an extra effort into keeping Lily safe - and Dumbledore knew he thought that too, imo. But he had no plan to do any such thing. He was going to keep them all hidden and safe if possible.

Now you have Snape leaving the meeting on the hill believing that Voldemort might spare Lily; but if he doesn't, Dumbledore would provide extra protection for her. For that, Snape had promised to do anything.

This explains so many things. First, after telling Snape he was disgusted, Snape's response was not all that one would hope for as I pointed out in my last post: "hide them all, then...but keep her - them safe". Dumbledore heard that too remember. He fully understood what Snape still wanted and that didn't include the safety of James and Harry. Meaning, he didn't care about them, he just wanted to ensure that Lily was safe. But at the same time, Snape still banked on the slim chance Voldemort might spare her also. That is why later Dumbledore said: "like you Severus, you too placed your trust in the wrong person, Voldemort". Which makes no sense if one believes that Snape had given up all trust that Voldemort might spare Lily. And it makes no sense to say Dumbledore was talking about Snape prior to his coming to the hill, because that in and of itself would mean he didn't place his trust in Voldemort, and Dumbledore was too wise not to understand that and take it into consideration - and further assimilate it. He would not think Snape had put his trust in Voldemort if when he'd come to the hill he'd completely removed his trust from Voldemort and placed it in Dumbledore - but that is not what happened, imo, and Dumbledore knew it. And Snape didn't deny it in canon.

So that is my impression of what all of those details meant, from the "anything" to the "you said you would keep her safe" - and it is the only reasonable explanation I have been able to see it to this point.

It brings up an interesting point. Later, when Lily was dead, though he had not yet given "Anything", Dumbledore had not seen his side of the bargain fulfilled either. Not his fault, but nonetheless. Her death was not truly Snape's fault in this way. It was Pettigrew's fault. The Potters were already members of the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort would already have wanted them dead surely? It makes sense then, that Snape cannot take full responsibility for this. Sure, he told Voldemort the prophecy. Had he thought it referred to Lily, he never would have uttered a word, to be sure.

Voldemort wanted James and Lily dead? Probably or maybe he felt alive he could win them over to his side - who knows. But Harry? I don't think he would have cared less about their child. It could live. But once he heard the prophecy, his main concern was to kill Harry. He was even willing to allow Lily to live, he said that in his POV. I am sure he would have captured her and possibly given her to Snape or whatever, but James and Lily's deaths were not that important to him any more than any other person fighting against him. And as I have said, he was judicious at times about that, according to his own nefarious plans which we have no idea about.

But Snape is not fully responsible because Voldemort and Peter also colluded to kill the Potters and also because Snape tried to undo at least a portion of what he had done by his effort to keep Lily safe. And in doing so, revealed the plot to Dumbledore. He'd be up for time off for squealing on those he'd colluded with and revealing the plan.

But is that all Dumbledore didn't tell? He also never told that Snape had sworn to protect Harry, sworn that no matter what happened, he would protect Harry. Snape didn't want anybody to know this either. Why would Snape stop him from saying that? I think he was ashamed of what he had done, of his part in spying that was a factor in Lily's death. But I don't see why he would want the truth about his guardian status not told. It would be an honorable thing to have been entrusted, surely?

Snape himself told us why. "never tell Potter's son". He was not accepting the job for James or Harry's sake, he was accepting it for Lily's sake - and only Lily's sake. He didn't want Harry to know that he had promised to do this for Lily's sake because he had ongoing emotions for her. It could be embarassing, but that wasn't important because as you say, if Snape was being honorable about it, he would wish to yell his duty to the world. But he was not being honorable about it, imo. He did not wish any misconstruction placed on what he was doing. And in the memories, when it became plain what he had done - the damage was already done. Harry was well aware that Snape loathed him and his father and had done absolutely nothing directly for them or on their behalf - it had all been done for Lily; that in my judgment was what Snape wished to make extremely clear. Note that imo, Snape couldn't care less if Harry thougt it was dishonorable toward him and his father (or what Harry thought of him as a result - he didn't know the kid from Adam when he made his promise), but only by not telling Harry could it be so construed and understood that this was only for Lily. I myself would have doubts about this issue if Snape had told Harry, because it would show that he wished for Harry to understand the sacrifice he was making and why he was making it - why would he care about such a thing if he loathed Harry? It would not make sense. So that is why I feel JKR felt she had to have it this way - to allow the issue to be perfectly clear. (Not that it is clear to everyone of course, but that is how I always saw it - even before she reiterated that Snape had loathed Harry to his death.)

Imagine what Harry would have had to say to Snape if he had known. Every instance of mistreatment, Harry would have had a lot to say, imo. .

But again, no parent that we know of ever complained. Snape made everybody work really hard, he accepted nothing less than the best. Admittedly he was cruel, dislikable (new word! Wuhoo!), and downright mean. So he wasn't the nicest person. But he was never, that we know of, complained about. It was just agreed that he was rather cruel. Which I agree with.

Not sure of the point you are making here. You are assuming the kids told their parents things of this type I believe, but in canon, we didn't hear them do so, they just indicated they didn't like him. Sirius was the only adult who seemed to believe that Snape might go to far and he did warn him in person. Lupin taught with him, but he never saw what Snape actually did in class or in private with the students. He only saw Snape make his inappropriate comment about Neville and Lupin showed his feelings about what Snape had said publicly in his response to Snape. We don't know if Dumbledore or other professors ever spoke to Snape about his behavior or if they even knew the full extent of it, but it doesn't appear the kids were informing their parents about it. I don't know why, you would think some kid would. . But on a literary note: JKR wanted to keep writing her charcter (he was a pleasure to write), so she really couldn't have anyone put a stop to his behavior.

Yes, Snape did say "So the boy must die" quite calmly. But a few seconds later,



I think he was unhappy about sending Harry to his death, and I do maintain this. Not so much, as you say, because he liked Harry, since he clearly did not, but because it forced his entire purpose for the last 17 years into redundancy. I'd be pretty annoyed too.

It is funny, but why is it that no one seems to feel that Snape would be absolutely shocked - and mortified - by Dumbledore's sudden change in character? He was the benevolent, loving, caring, nurturing, Grandpa of Harry. Now he tells Snape he has been planning ALL ALONG to send him to his death. Snape was as incredulous as I was, imo. That is why JKR said that she felt more people would be sympathetic to how Snape was feeling at that moment than Dumbledore (a phenomenon) - and I did. But it had nothing to do with Harry and everything to do with Dumbledore, imo.

I agree 100% that Snape then began to think about himself and how he was used - and that instead of trying to honor Lily, he had been working to tear her sacrifice to shreds by raising her son for the slaughter. But that was all about Snape and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry either, imo.

I actually tried to read it the other way - on purpose - tossing out any preconceived notions and demanding that I take on the understanding that Snape was speaking in some way about Harry. But there was nothing - only the indirect Link of what Dumbledore was doing with respect to Harry and how that reflected on Dumbledore.

Let me put it this way: You put any other member of the Order (known to us), or put Ron, or Hermione, Luna or Neville in Snape's chair in that room. Right after Dumbledore explained that Harry had to die, I could imagine every single one of them hopping up from their seat and looking at Dumbledore as if he'd gone mad. Horcrux or no horcrux, they would be demanding whether or not Dumbledore had explored every nook and cranny of magic to find a way for Harry to live. Some may have fainted, some may have told Dumbledore he had Knargles in his brain, some may have told Dumbledore that Harry would only die over their dead body, some may have stormed out immediately and found Harry and carried him away - but no one, not one of them, in my judgment, would sit there calmly and repeat "so the boy must die". I doubt Dumbledore would have even gotten to the next bit about how he'd planned it all along because the person would be up in arms and outraged with the information. Even Kingsley, while remaining in his seat (cuz he's cool like that) would have been unwilling to readily except the declaration, imo. They would have understood the reasoning with the horcrux and all, but no one would calmly accept the information, imo.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you've said, but to add to my own reasoning, I used this:



He didn't want to send Harry to his death, because it made him believe that he would be dishonouring the one thing he had tried to make up to her.

I do not understand the link you are making between what happened and was said in that scene and your conclusion that Snape didn't want to send Harry to his death due to dishonor. I do believe that Snape saw that he had not in actuality been working to honor Lily's sacrifice and was angry about that (that is why he said to Dumbledore he felt used and accused him of raising him for the slaughter) - but not based on the portion of the scene you provided. And again, to me, that was all about himself and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry except that he was the "tool" that Snape used to try and honor Lily's sacrifice. Which, imo, was how he saw Harry which is why he could justify mistreating him so badly; as a tool, whatever he did good with respect to the tool (spying and such) was honoring Lily's sacrifice - apart from that, the loathed tool was disregardable to him, in my judgment. So he could do what he wanted, when he wanted as long as he did "something" that could be associated with honoring Lily's sacrifice (spying and such), imo. I feel that also helps explain why Harry's feelings and emotions were of little importance to Snape, imo.

I humbly disagree with you, based simply on what we have read, which I provided above. I disagree, first and foremost, that Dumbledore asked simply to get out of answering questions. He knew he was manipulative and just as cruel as other people. He didn't have to justify that, he knew he never could. I genuinely believe that he asked simply because he didn't believe, after 17 years, that Snape would still love Lily. I also believe that he trusted Snape for a number of further reasons, the most prominent of these being that he had proved he could keep that promise. It was the proof, time and again, that cemented Dumbledore's faith, in my opinion.

Snape would still have followed through with the plan, he had shown that he was not going to waver thus far. I think what upset Dumbledore (not that it has much to do with this, generally ) is that he simply never thought it possible that Snape would still care so much. It was, after all, so very out of character for the Snape we knew so well.

So you think if instead of producing his doe, Snape had said, "the truth is, Dumbledore, I have come to care for Harry greatly...nearly as much as I cared for his mother" - that Dumbledore would have had confidence that Snape would give Harry the message? I can tell you, I do not. That is precisely why I feel Dumbledore had Snape give Harry the message - he was the only one who would for sure, imo, because he loathed Harry. Anyone else might have wavered on such a promise - from those who loved Harry to those who respected him greatly and liked him alot - each and everyone would have great qualms in sending the boy to his death and might fail in the effort for all of their promises, imo. Dumbledore knew this and that was something I think he was double checking. He knew Snape loathed Harry, that had been made plain in the past; but the rant gave him a reason to double check and Snape confirmed that it was still 'all about Lily'.

I am not ademant about the other bit I said. It is possible Dumbledore was surprised Snape still cared for Lily and had hoped Snape was working because inside he'd come to desire the work of good cause to be successful. Thus he would have been surprised that Snape still had emotions for Lily. The tears are debatable though because why tear up over that? That is not such good news. Dumbledore could have been thinking of his own life; his saddness that Snape would have to die for his loyalty to his emotions for Lily; the fact that he's an overblown romantic at heart; or some other reason. I dunno. But the principle reason he asked, imo, is to ensure that Snape still loathed Harry because if he didn't, then his plan would have to change, imo. I didn't mention this before because I thought it was a given, but apparently not. .

Originally Posted by wingardium713

Lily was sorted before Snape (they do it in alphabetical order of last name. Evans before Snape).

Why wouldn't Snape be like Lily, though? If Lily wanting to be in Slytherian because her friend wants to be there won't count to the Hat, then why should Snape's desire to go in Slytherin count to the Hat? If he wants to be in there because his mother was, that is no better than wanting to be in the same house as your friend. If it is because he knows what Slytherin is all about and that's what he wants to be, it would appear that he is wrong about Slytherin. He seems to imply on the train that Slytherins are brainy, so if that's the attraction, the Hat should have stuffed him in Ravenclaw.

So, what exactly went on during that Sorting? Did Snape really know about the characteristics of Slytherin (and lie to Lily) or was he honestly mistaken? Would the sorting Hat take in consideration your preferences if you had a mistaken opinion of the house? Or did his comments on "brawny vs. brainy" not really apply to "Gryffindor vs. Slytherin" in his mind?

When Lily was sorted into Gryffindor (long before Snape was sorted into Slytherin so he had time to think about it), why did Snape not decide to go into Gryffindor? Is this the first indication that we get that Snape will chose Slytherin/Ambition over Lily? Or did he consider going into Gryffindor and we are just not told about it and was he was over-ruled by the hat?

I wonder what the Hat sang that year and if that changed anybody's (e.g. Lily's) mind about which house to be sorted in.

I'm honestly a bit confused about what went on there and I'm not sure if we could ever have a definitive answer.

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

After re-reading your original post, I think I just misinterpreted what you meant the first time. :P Sorry about that.

However, the only flaw I can see is that Lily was sorted long before Severus was. The sad look she gave him was most likely because she realized she had been sorted into the House with Sirius (he would have gone before her) and the one Potter wanted. :/ As for whether it would take your opinions based on a friendship, I'm not entirly sure. Frankly, the whole sorting system seems to be rather contrived and random. Does it matter more your potential or your past? Does your ideal person matter more than the one you are likely to become? Just how much about you does the Hat learn? Does it find information that even you don't quite know?

And of course, this is entirly off-topic. I'm afraid I've been driving the whole thread off-topic this whole time, as I tend to forget what thread I'm in. /lame

That is true. Well I would say then she was merely sad that she hadn't gotten into the house they had spoken about, figuring he'd likely be placed there based on what he'd told her. She didn't know what was going on - and I am sure she hadn't noticed or cared where Sirius had been sorted .

The hat, I feel, looks predominantely at the person and places them. Kids inherit their parent's inherent traits, so often you would likely see kids go to the same houses (although not always) We have no idea if anyone ever spoke to the hat before Harry. No one likely knew they could play a role in the decision. Nonetheless, if the hat had asked her, I presume Lily would have said Slytherin as that is what the friends likely decided on before the fact - which explains her sadness.

But Snape was a prime candidate for Slytherin; he wanted to go there; he was cunning and sly - already spying a little and such, so the hat simply placed him where he would fit, imo. Now keep in mind that didn't mean he was doomed to anything - I personally feel that Slytherin is the greatest house because it is the place where you are most free to become whoever you will - if you have enough gumption to do so. Being cunning and sly (in a good way), reaching your goals by any means (within self set limits) and other traits the hat sung can produce a stellar wizard (meaning good side). So I don't think that either Snape's traits or the fact that he was sorted there said anything negative at all. At that point, he was one of the luckiest kids of all to be sorted into this house of golden opportunities, imo. He, like many others, failed to take advantage of the house in that way while at Hogwarts - but he had the potential to do so, like all Slytherins, imo.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

But before you argue any points in the above paragraph, note I am tongue in cheek there because that is the flaw in JKR's plan that I figure she did not take into consideration.

Dude, that paragraph flew so high over my head that I won't even talk about it. I'll say that you're right, but I say it with much head scratching and little inclination to fight about it.

So I agree with you that she meant us to see it as an emotional outcry that symbolizes all we as earthly humans would normally understand it to mean. In that light, I see it as Snape being sorry also. But I do not know what in that scene makes you think he is sorry for "everything". He only appeared to be sorry for his act which lead to Lily's death.

Go back a bit in time and think it through with me. Snape made several really huge choices. One of them was joining the Death Eaters. It was due to this that he spied and maligned and handed over the details of that prophecy. His choice to be a dark wizard led directly to him playing a part in Lily's downfall. I agree that he wasn't sorry for everything -yet- but that this was a first step. I also think that it was a huge one, as first steps go. I think we actually do agree on this.

(We actually had some crossed wires here too. I won't go into too much detail, but you said "But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted." And I said "I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. That was about the Lily part of your sentence, not the first bit, which I agree with you on. Sorry about that! )

I just feel that in a persons deepest, darkest moments, they honestly look back over everything, right to the first step they took, and they wish to God they had never taken it. It's for this reason that I see the remorse in the sentence "I wish I were dead". Get me? It's much like that theory that the worst feeling a person can have is knowing that the last words they spoke to another person were spoken in anger.

He didn't care that Harry survived, he didn't care that James died and he mentioned nothing about all of the others that had died when he was a DE. Further, when Dumbledore asked for his promise to help, Snape declared he would, but not to tell anyone the reason why he was helping "especially not Potter's son". To me that flat out says that Snape's promise to help is specifically not done for either James or Harry - only for Lily. As if that is all he has to worry about making up for. So maybe if you explain more I can understand how you see this more comprehensively as that was my impression from the reading.

Again, I don't. I just see it as a first step, one he had to think through in huge detail, much like our talk about "choices" yesterday. It was a first step, brought on only by the threat to her life, but as he thought it through, he because more and more tied up with trying to redeem himself, to the end that he eventually really wished Dumbledore would finally trust him, entirely, again. To say that he felt this way, and he does express feeling this way in the scene where he questions why Dumbledore won't let on his plans, tells me that he felt he was regretful enough and remorseful enough to merit some trust.

I respect your view. However, my impression was that Snape had always quested to be a powerful man and for acclaim. Now one can say that after the big emotional breakdown, he lost that desire. But I don't buy it. His actions in POA when he was told he would receive the Merlin were written so as to make it exaggeratedly evident that Snape was receving something he desired very much - I mean that he behaved in a boastful, arrogant and preening way (just to be clear). Snape, in my view, wanted to be Dumbledore's #1 man; the most trusted, the only one in his complete confidence - the proverbial right hand man, imo. Dumbledore knew this, imo, and he manipulated Snape a bit in that regard, imo, to make him feel as if that was well on the way to happening. The truth of course was that Dumbledore had no right hand men and took no one completely into his confidence, imj. That was Voldemort's game and he also played it well, strategically moving Snape into that position, imo.

Yep. I agree with you on all of this. But my reading of that canon changed when I read Deathly Hallows. In the exact scene you mention, with Snape being told he would be awarded the Order of Merlin, I originally read it as you do. But then I looked back over it. Think about it.

Everybody in the Ministry knew Snape had been a Death Eater. Dumbledore announced as much in that trial with Karkaroff giving information. Dumbledore said that he defected to the good side at "huge personal risk". The fact that Snape was being trusted so completely by the Minister of Magic, in this scene, was a good thing for him. It showed him that, at least in Fudge's eyes, and the eyes of the general Magical community, he had done something heroic, something truly good. I just figured that he maybe felt that they accepted he had redeemed himself.

As for his ambition, yes, he was ambitious. There are few enough people who aren't. Snape needed people to trust him, to rely on him. I think that he actually needed to serve something, somebody, to the best of his abilities, to prove himself. And why wouldn't he? He demonstrated in school that he was a man of many academic talents.

So that is why Dumbledore's trust was important to Snape, imo. But he wanted far more than trust, because Dumbledore readily admitted to everyone (and this was repeated directly to Snape in OOTP by Sirius) - that he trusted Snape. So Snape knew that. What he wanted was to be in Dumbledore's confidence which was why he became upset when he felt Dumbledore was sharing things with Harry an not with him.

Yep. Exactly. We agree here today.

But I do not think that it was wrong of Snape to want to get ahead - I mean after all, was he supposed to quest to be #15 on the list? He set his sights high and I don't see anything wrong with that. The problem was twofold. Snape was not a humble man and his arrogance caused him to respond very poorly when what he set his sights on seemed to be slipping away or was snatched away - and that is not a good trait, in my view. In addition, together with wanting to get ahead, Snape desired acclaim (yes the very attention seeking he accused Harry of) and that part of it was not a good trait, imo.

Yep. I agree here too. He had bad qualities. We can't just highlight that, since everybody has bad qualities. You're correct, it wasn't a good, but I also agree that it's not "wrong" to want to get ahead.

You and I are in agreement that he was sorry. I think our discrepancy is merely what he was sorry about. I feel he limited it to Lily his entire life. I cannot be sold the proposition that a person can be sorry for bringing devastation onto another and then badmouth them to their face - I'm sorry - I just can't. It makes absolutely no sense to me. This was not a matter of simple negative comments; the bad mouthing I refer to includes the lies, 1/2 lies, and character misconstruction Snape flung at Harry about him. Why this is so bad? Because of the effect it had on Harry and because Snape knew, prior to saying it, it would have that effect, imo. So I am to believe that Snape intentionally set out to mentally hurt and injure the person he supposedly had remorse and regret for? I don't buy it, not for a second. You couldn't sell me that proposition for negative dollars . Not that you are trying to of course, but I mean in general, I cannot be convinced of that. And even if in general Snape had no respect for the dead, regret and remorse would cause one to have respect for the dead we helped to murder, imo, and he did not, imo. So since that is my very firm opinion, if you disagree, we would have to just agree to disagree on this.

We will have to agree to disagree on most of this. Not necessarily because we disagree on the facts of it though. Here:

So I am to believe that Snape intentionally set out to mentally hurt and injure the person he supposedly had remorse and regret for? I don't buy it, not for a second.

If we're talking about Harry, then I'm glad you're not buying, cos that I would not sell. Severus Snape felt no remorse for Harry Potter. Snape bullied, injured and maimed Harry, because he reminded Snape of James. I see the transference, and I understand it, but that doesn't make it okay. Snape had shown he was capable of being a stronger person than that, and though I do see that the treatment Snape received at James' hands was so bad that Harry himself was disgusted with his father, I don't condone Snape's behaviour here.

But nor do I believe, and this is where we disagree, that he limited his remorse to Lily his entire life. I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters, even if this did come much later on. Though I'm sure that in the end he achieved no satisfaction from James dying, he didn't particularly feel anything else about it either. He didn't care much for Harry Potter. I do think Lily became the primary factor behind his choices in the last half of his life. But I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters. I can't prove this, it's just a personal belief, so I'll look at it from your point of view.

If he did only ever regret his action in Lily's death, fair enough. Looking at it from this point of view, he's still extremely honourable for his abounding compassion, something I would have expected would have been removed under Voldemort and the rule of his mother. He's still brave for choosing to act on one thing that he never thought he would, his love for Lily. He's still respectable, because he watched out for something he disliked inherently, Harry Potter. He's still admirable for his determination to keep a promise, regardless of the fact that it would tear his soul into pieces. And he's still redeemed himself, because his sense of love and compassion taught him that life wasn't black and white. His attraction to a darker side of life was destroyed by that blinding white light in his heart, and the fact that he chose(entirely his own responsibility) the light over the dark despite the personal conflict this caused him, means he is worthy of my admiration. I think the pain he caused himself by being consistent, by keeping his promise, by watching out for a facsimile of James Potter and by forcing himself to work with Sirius especially, counts as general atonement.

I am not sure how 'saving his own skin' comes into it. Can you clarify? I wasn't meaning to suggest that if that is what you mean. I don't think he went to both in order to save his own skin. I think he went to both to ensure Lily would be saved at all costs.

Ah, well that would explain it. I agree with you. I did, in fact, think you were saying he was trying to save his own skin. We're agreeing here too.

He showed surprise when Dumbledore asked, but I thought it was because Snape felt he had already given something - he'd given Dumbledore information. This is a very, very, key, very, very important part of this scene. You see, Snape had given Dumbledore very important information, so all that was left (if you read this on the face) was for Dumbledore to give Snape something in return - his promise to protect. But you see, Dumbledore is a fantastic manipulator. And when he asks Snape what he would do for him in return - it dawned on Snape that Dumbledore was asking for something in return for his personal request: to keep Lily safe. That is why he said "Anything".

This would make a wonderful point, but for the question of what information Snape had provided Dumbledore? We have no proof that Snape had actually provided Dumbledore with anything useful. Dumbledore knew about the Longbottoms and the Potters, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. he had heard the prophecy. he was no idiot, he worked it out. That's why he hired Sybill Trelawney almost on spot as soon as he heard that prophecy and as soon as he saw Snape. He put two and two together and got the required four. An opportunity fell into his lap when Snape arrived. He showed no surprise that the prophecy referred to Lily. In fact, he corrected Snape, that it really referred to Harry. I am genuinely positive that Dumbledore knew.

Even so, he likely would have tried to save them all, Potters and Longbottoms, he had no reason not to. But having a spy in Voldemort's camp is just a perfect scenario. So yes, he manipulated Snape into doing as he pleased. This adds pity to my list of reasons for being Pro Snape. The poor fool didn't have a clue of his own ignorance when it came to Dumbledore, and he was used more than most in this regard.

Dumbledore never said that in so many words, but Snape understood Dumbledore to mean that, imo, that is why his first words to Dumbledore after Lily died were: "you promised to keep her safe." But that is not what Dumbledore promised. He had promised to "hide them all" and nothing else. But to Snape, he took that extra bit of Dumbledore asking what he would do for him to mean that Dumbledore was going to put an extra effort into keeping Lily safe - and Dumbledore knew he thought that too, imo. But he had no plan to do any such thing. He was going to keep them all hidden and safe if possible.

We're agreed on all of this. I'm just a bit harsher on Dumbledore, eh?

Now you have Snape leaving the meeting on the hill believing that Voldemort might spare Lily; but if he doesn't, Dumbledore would provide extra protection for her. For that, Snape had promised to do anything.

Yes. I agree with you on all of this.

Voldemort wanted James and Lily dead? Probably or maybe he felt alive he could win them over to his side - who knows. But Harry? I don't think he would have cared less about their child. It could live.

I firmly believe that anything that man felt apathetic about, he just got rid of it anyway to heighten his own sense of self importance. Why wipe out just the parents when the boy was likely to grow up just like them? I know this will sound awful, but it would have been more pragmatic to kill him. In my opinion, anyway.

But Snape is not fully responsible because Voldemort and Peter also colluded to kill the Potters and also because Snape tried to undo at least a portion of what he had done by his effort to keep Lily safe. And in doing so, revealed the plot to Dumbledore. He'd be up for time off for squealing on those he'd colluded with and revealing the plan.

Yup.

Snape himself told us why. "never tell Potter's son". He was not accepting the job for James or Harry's sake, he was accepting it for Lily's sake - and only Lily's sake. He didn't want Harry to know that he had promised to do this for Lily's sake because he had ongoing emotions for her. It could be embarassing, but that wasn't important because as you say, if Snape was being honorable about it, he would wish to yell his duty to the world.

I take this onboard, but I think his honour would have been lessened if he had yelled to the world about it. It's a funny old thing about honour, the more secret it is the more admirable it is. I wouldn't have felt so much for him in the event of him yelling, I just wondered why. You provided me a very good explanation. Again, the fact that he did accept only for Lily's sake, which is arguably true, he didn't feel true further remorse till later, in my view), to do something for someone he hated without question, adds to his honour. I mean, would you watch over the child of an enemy? That takes strong stuff.

Not sure of the point you are making here. You are assuming the kids told their parents when in canon, we didn't hear them do so, they just indicated they didn't like him.

This is double sided. Being bullied by a teacher is different to student bullying. Indicating they didn't like him is fair enough. If they felt bullied and told their parents, then their parents might have brushed it off as a clash of personalities. If they didn't tell their parents, then it wasn't bad enough, so there would also be no complaint. My point is that either way you look at it, Snape was never moaned about by either his colleagues or the guardians of his students.

The literary note I agree with. It seems a bit inconsistent to me otherwise that the behaviour shown by Snape would never be qustioned, when he did do some very vindictive things.

It is funny, but why is it that no one seems to feel that Snape would be absolutely shocked - and mortified - by Dumbledore's sudden change in character?

Shocked, yes. Mortified, no. Unless we're saying mortifed to have been used so thoroughly, like trash? Then I'll walk the road with you on that.

I agree 100% that Snape then began to think about himself and how he was used - and that instead of trying to honor Lily, he had been working to tear her sacrifice to shreds by raising her son for the slaughter. But that was all about Snape and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry either, imo.

I both agree and disagree here. I agree with you that it went back to Lily, but I disagree in that I think Snape had reached a point where the Dark Arts meant nothing but grief for him. he made the comment in that same conversation that, essentially, he had had enough of watching people die. I think at this point, he was very remorseful for what he had done in total, joining the Death Eaters and all.

I doubt Dumbledore would have even gotten to the next bit about how he'd planned it all along because the person would be up in arms and outraged with the information. Even Kingsley, while remaining in his seat (cuz he's cool like that) would have been unwilling to readily except the declaration, imo. They would have understood the reasoning with the horcrux and all, but no one would calmly accept the information, imo.

Except, ironically, Harry. Only the people who understood it would accept it, and none of those mentioned would have comprehended at all. Harry did. Snape did. Both felt used and manipulated. But this is also very subjective,so I have no other comment to make on it really!

I do not understand the link you are making between what happened and was said in that scene and your conclusion that Snape didn't want to send Harry to his death due to dishonor. I do believe that Snape saw that he had not in actuality been working to honor Lily's sacrifice and was angry about that (that is why he said to Dumbledore he felt used and accused him of raising him for the slaughter) - but not based on the portion of the scene you provided.

Whichever part you read it from, as long as we agree it is there, we're good.

And again, to me, that was all about himself and Lily and had nothing to do with Harry except that he was the "tool" that Snape used to try and honor Lily's sacrifice. Which, imo, was how he saw Harry which is why he could justify mistreating him so badly; as a tool, whatever he did good with respect to the tool (spying and such) was honoring Lily's sacrifice - apart from that, the loathed tool was disregardable to him, in my judgment. So he could do what he wanted, when he wanted as long as he did "something" that could be associated with honoring Lily's sacrifice (spying and such), imo. I feel that also helps explain why Harry's feelings and emotions were of little importance to Snape, imo.

Yeah, I agree with you on this too, except that, though it did have to do with Lily, I think that Snape had finally realised that his true mistake lay, not in giving over the prophecy, but in turning to the dark in the first place.

So you think if instead of producing his doe, Snape had said, "the truth is, Dumbledore, I have come to care for Harry greatly...nearly as much as I cared for his mother" - that Dumbledore would have had confidence that Snape would give Harry the message? I can tell you, I do not.

I think that's taking it to extremes of what I think. I think, had Snape decided that he did care for Harry, the result would have been the same. Harry would have walked to his death, the same. Snape would have passed the message to him. Same. See, Snape, for all his compassion and love, had come to really believe in Dumbledore. It disgusted him that he would be expected to give that service. But he did it anyway. Because he had given his word, which he proved, on more than one occasion, that he would not break.

That is precisely why I feel Dumbledore had Snape give Harry the message - he was the only one who would for sure, imo, because he loathed Harry.

That, however, is fair enough of an appraisal. I just think that it underestimates Snape's promise and the extent to which he was willing to keep it.

I am not ademant about the other bit I said. It is possible Dumbledore was surprised Snape still cared for Lily and had hoped Snape was working because inside he'd come to desire the work of good cause to be successful. Thus he would have been surprised that Snape still had emotions for Lily. The tears are debatable though because why tear up over that? That is not such good news. Dumbledore could have been thinking of his own life; his saddness that Snape would have to die for his loyalty to his emotions for Lily; the fact that he's an overblown romantic at heart; or some other reason. I dunno.

It's interesting that you raise this. I see this as Dumbledore's redeeming sense coming through. He was a manipulative git, yes. But he was always, always, so sorry for what he did to people. He was likely still surprised because he never expected that, in looking at Harry every day, with his mothers eyes pierced onto his fathers face, Snape would still love those eyes so much that they were the last thing he asked to see.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Dude, that paragraph flew so high over my head that I won't even talk about it. I'll say that you're right, but I say it with much head scratching and little inclination to fight about it.

. Just think that in HP universe, there is an afterworld where the brave wizards go - the rest remain in the earthly wizard world as ghosts. If you look at many of the statements in canon in light of that, they don't always make sense. Someone posted like 20 statements once and it was quite hilarious. But again, I don't think JKR took that into consideration while she was writing.

Go back a bit in time and think it through with me. Snape made several really huge choices. One of them was joining the Death Eaters. It was due to this that he spied and maligned and handed over the details of that prophecy. His choice to be a dark wizard led directly to him playing a part in Lily's downfall. I agree that he wasn't sorry for everything -yet- but that this was a first step. I also think that it was a huge one, as first steps go. I think we actually do agree on this.

I don't know what you mean by first step. To me, it included only regret for having given the prophecy because Voldemort decided to target Lily. All the other stuff you mentioned wasn't on Snape's mind at the time, imo.

(We actually had some crossed wires here too. I won't go into too much detail, but you said "But in none of these things did he admit any regret or remorse over anything except his act which caused Lily to be targeted." And I said "I wish I was dead" qualifies as such to me. That was about the Lily part of your sentence, not the first bit, which I agree with you on. Sorry about that! )

Right; this is a week later and I really don't think that "I wish I was dead" meant anything more than what I wrote above at that point. If JKR wanted to show that it meant more, I think she would have had Snape make that clear to the reader. His entire rant was focused on Lily's death.

I just feel that in a persons deepest, darkest moments, they honestly look back over everything, right to the first step they took, and they wish to God they had never taken it. It's for this reason that I see the remorse in the sentence "I wish I were dead". Get me? It's much like that theory that the worst feeling a person can have is knowing that the last words they spoke to another person were spoken in anger.

Many people do, I agree. However, Snape was a very selfish man, imo, at that time. He was thinking of himself and his loss. If he wished he were dead because of all of the atrocities that had occurred while he was a death eater; for Harry being an Orphan and for James dying, then that was not made clear in canon to me. There was no talk of doing anything for James, it was all centered around Lily - Snape in fact declared he would not be doing anything for James, imo. So I would have to disagree on this one.

Again, I don't. I just see it as a first step, one he had to think through in huge detail, much like our talk about "choices" yesterday. It was a first step, brought on only by the threat to her life, but as he thought it through, he because more and more tied up with trying to redeem himself, to the end that he eventually really wished Dumbledore would finally trust him, entirely, again. To say that he felt this way, and he does express feeling this way in the scene where he questions why Dumbledore won't let on his plans, tells me that he felt he was regretful enough and remorseful enough to merit some trust.

I don't disagree it was a first step. But the step you have him taking (if I understand you) is gigantic. I believe you feel he felt remorse for "everything", at that time but I don't.

Yep. I agree with you on all of this. But my reading of that canon changed when I read Deathly Hallows. In the exact scene you mention, with Snape being told he would be awarded the Order of Merlin, I originally read it as you do. But then I looked back over it. Think about it.

Everybody in the Ministry knew Snape had been a Death Eater. Dumbledore announced as much in that trial with Karkaroff giving information. Dumbledore said that he defected to the good side at "huge personal risk". The fact that Snape was being trusted so completely by the Minister of Magic, in this scene, was a good thing for him. It showed him that, at least in Fudge's eyes, and the eyes of the general Magical community, he had done something heroic, something truly good. I just figured that he maybe felt that they accepted he had redeemed himself.

Well I feel that is a matter of interpretation. I think that a person who felt the gratitude you are indicating would not immediately attempt to take advantage of the situtation and try to get Harry expelled. I don't think Snape was thinking in terms of gratitude. I believe he was thinking in terms of attaining an honor he felt was due to him and that the Minister would therefore listen kindly and perhaps act on his suggestion.

But nor do I believe, and this is where we disagree, that he limited his remorse to Lily his entire life. I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters, even if this did come much later on. Though I'm sure that in the end he achieved no satisfaction from James dying, he didn't particularly feel anything else about it either. He didn't care much for Harry Potter. I do think Lily became the primary factor behind his choices in the last half of his life. But I think he regretted ever joining the Death Eaters. I can't prove this, it's just a personal belief, so I'll look at it from your point of view.

I have seriously never considered whether Snape regretted joining the Death Eaters. There are many considerations so I would have to think about it.

Snape said to Harry: "you would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black." Funny the "key" moment that Snape selects with respect to James' death - one in which he can lay blame on James for his own death, imo. Death by arrogance. The key moment is not when Snape delivered the prophecy, or when Voldemort targeted James (and family), nor when Peter relayed their whereabouts; no, for Snape James died because he was arrogant. I would say Snape found satisfaction in being able to blame the victim for his own death. It removed some of his own culpability (and that of Voldemort's and Peter's (who of course he thought had been Black.) And note, although the same applied to Lily, Snape arbitrarily left her right out of it because for whatever reason, imo, he didn't feel she deserved to die. Actually, I don't think he felt she deserved to die for any reason, even if she'd been arrogant in trusting Black. .

In addition, Snape seemed highly satisfied everytime he disrepected James' memory before Harry, smirking and sneering and such, imo. So I would not agree that Snape got no satisfaction from James dying; I feel he made an enjoyable past time of it and was quite satisfied in that regard.

If he did only ever regret his action in Lily's death, fair enough. Looking at it from this point of view, he's still extremely honourable for his abounding compassion, something I would have expected would have been removed under Voldemort and the rule of his mother. He's still brave for choosing to act on one thing that he never thought he would, his love for Lily. He's still respectable, because he watched out for something he disliked inherently, Harry Potter. He's still admirable for his determination to keep a promise, regardless of the fact that it would tear his soul into pieces. And he's still redeemed himself, because his sense of love and compassion taught him that life wasn't black and white. His attraction to a darker side of life was destroyed by that blinding white light in his heart, and the fact that he chose(entirely his own responsibility) the light over the dark despite the personal conflict this caused him, means he is worthy of my admiration. I think the pain he caused himself by being consistent, by keeping his promise, by watching out for a facsimile of James Potter and by forcing himself to work with Sirius especially, counts as general atonement.

Now that is the story I feel JKR is trying to sell more or less. But I am not sure what she expected me to make of the rest of the series. Was I to go back and rip out every page on which Snape mistreated Harry? Then yes, I could see Snape as having been "honorable for his abounding compassion". Unfortunately, for me, "abounding compassion" is not directed at one person, selfishly, obsessively and possessively to the degree it makes you vindictive, cruel an hateful. Since that is how I see Snape's emotions for Lily (which is what I mean everytime I use the euphemism "emotion for Lily"), I cannot follow this river of thought. To me, it is honestly more like a wild white water rapid that no one could survive attempting to travel. But I do respect your view, and hers and everyone else's, I just don't buy into it.

This would make a wonderful point, but for the question of what information Snape had provided Dumbledore? We have no proof that Snape had actually provided Dumbledore with anything useful. Dumbledore knew about the Longbottoms and the Potters, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. he had heard the prophecy. he was no idiot, he worked it out. That's why he hired Sybill Trelawney almost on spot as soon as he heard that prophecy and as soon as he saw Snape. He put two and two together and got the required four. An opportunity fell into his lap when Snape arrived. He showed no surprise that the prophecy referred to Lily. In fact, he corrected Snape, that it really referred to Harry. I am genuinely positive that Dumbledore knew.

Yes Dumbledore definitely knew about the Potters and the Longbottoms - he was the one who had heard the prophecy - all of it in fact. That is why the couples were in hiding. And Snape knew he knew because Dumbledore was the listener when he overheard the prophecy. So why did Snape go to Dumbledore on the hill?

The answer to that question is the "new information" that Snape revealed to Dumbledore and why he felt that he'd given Dumbledore valuable information. I agree it was.

Even so, he likely would have tried to save them all, Potters and Longbottoms, he had no reason not to.

Ah, but now he knew where to focus his efforts which is why he suggested the fidelius Charm according to Fudge. The information was very helpful and valuable to him.

But having a spy in Voldemort's camp is just a perfect scenario. So yes, he manipulated Snape into doing as he pleased. This adds pity to my list of reasons for being Pro Snape. The poor fool didn't have a clue of his own ignorance when it came to Dumbledore, and he was used more than most in this regard.

Indeed, except of course, imo, Snape's motivation was so tarnished and poor, that I cannot feel any pity for him in this particular situation. I feel he deserved to be manipulated, it was for his own good, imo.

We're agreed on all of this. I'm just a bit harsher on Dumbledore, eh?

I am also, but not in this scene.

I firmly believe that anything that man felt apathetic about, he just got rid of it anyway to heighten his own sense of self importance. Why wipe out just the parents when the boy was likely to grow up just like them? I know this will sound awful, but it would have been more pragmatic to kill him. In my opinion, anyway.

Oh sure, but Voldemort would not be hunting Harry. And James and Lily could be killed on a mission. The point is, he had not targeted them specifically prior to this - obviously or Snape would have acted sooner I suppose. Which is that old plot hole of why Snape wasn't concerned prior to Lily being targeted directly, seeing as the group he was with was killing off Order members, like Lily, all the time. But that is a dead end road as JKR never addressed as far as I know.

I take this onboard, but I think his honour would have been lessened if he had yelled to the world about it. It's a funny old thing about honour, the more secret it is the more admirable it is. I wouldn't have felt so much for him in the event of him yelling, I just wondered why. You provided me a very good explanation. Again, the fact that he did accept only for Lily's sake, which is arguably true, he didn't feel true further remorse till later, in my view), to do something for someone he hated without question, adds to his honour. I mean, would you watch over the child of an enemy? That takes strong stuff.

I would agree 100% if Snape were merely the strong, honorable silent type who wished to do good deeds and keep them from everyone out of modesty. However, that was not the case, imo. His motivation lay elsewhere in my judgment.

This is double sided. Being bullied by a teacher is different to student bullying. Indicating they didn't like him is fair enough. If they felt bullied and told their parents, then their parents might have brushed it off as a clash of personalities. If they didn't tell their parents, then it wasn't bad enough, so there would also be no complaint. My point is that either way you look at it, Snape was never moaned about by either his colleagues or the guardians of his students. The literary note I agree with. It seems a bit inconsistent to me otherwise that the behaviour shown by Snape would never be qustioned, when he did do some very vindictive things.

If the point is that it couldn't have been so bad because no parents ever complained, then it would contradict JKR's statement that Snape's bullying of the children was one of the worst things a person could do, in her opinion. So it was as bad as it appeared, imo, and there was more that we did not see because Harry didn't see it. Snape had other courses and 3/4 of the student body considered him cruel and sarcastic (CoS). So I think parents and Dumbledore didn't intervene mainly for literary purposes. JKR indicated that Dumbledore felt it was good for the children to exprience horrible professor's like Snape, which doesn't say much for Dumbledore, imo, but there you have it, JKR's words.

I both agree and disagree here. I agree with you that it went back to Lily, but I disagree in that I think Snape had reached a point where the Dark Arts meant nothing but grief for him. he made the comment in that same conversation that, essentially, he had had enough of watching people die. I think at this point, he was very remorseful for what he had done in total, joining the Death Eaters and all.

Then Snape's statement in issuing his doe was a lie? I thought he was being honest. That is why he was keeping his promise to Dumbledore. He was caught in a web of deception with being a spy ~ but if that had not been forced upon him, I don't believe he would have volunteered to do it. He would have probably stayed out of the war altogether, imo. That is where I think he was coming from. His improvement in not watching those die he could save was a good one, but imo, had nothing to do with his service to Dumbledore.

Except, ironically, Harry.

Harry could not count in this as it was he who had to make the decision to sacrifice his own life - based on what I was saying. I was speaking of someone being complicit in sending him to his death ~ he could not do that, it is impossible .

I think that's taking it to extremes of what I think. I think, had Snape decided that he did care for Harry, the result would have been the same. Harry would have walked to his death, the same. Snape would have passed the message to him. Same. See, Snape, for all his compassion and love, had come to really believe in Dumbledore. It disgusted him that he would be expected to give that service. But he did it anyway. Because he had given his word, which he proved, on more than one occasion, that he would not break.

I would respectfully disagree. But more importantly, Dumbledore could no longer trust that Snape would actually do it; as things stood, he could, imo.

That, however, is fair enough of an appraisal. I just think that it underestimates Snape's promise and the extent to which he was willing to keep it.

It does. But I feel that Snape did that himself because some of the things Snape did to Harry I cannot place in the category of protection. In my view, there were times when Harry required protection from Snape. In the worst of these times, he got it, sometimes from unlikely sources, imo. So the extent was not really all that great in my opinion. According to JKR, Snape loathed Harry, and even if a reader does not agree, from JKR's viewpoint when writing, that is what she believed according to her statement. So, I don't think she intended that Dumbledore believe otherwise, being wise and all. If he knew that and could count on it, that served as insurance that Snape would not be swayed by emotions of care or like from delivering the message, imo. That is my only point.

A number of new issues...and one for me to think about. . I'll give it some thought and get back to you on that.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

. Just think that in HP universe, there is an afterworld where the brave wizards go - the rest remain in the earthly wizard world as ghosts. If you look at many of the statements in canon in light of that, they don't always make sense. Someone posted like 20 statements once and it was quite hilarious. But again, I don't think JKR took that into consideration while she was writing.

I know this is a total aside, but I always thought the reason a person became a ghost was not lack of bravery, but an unwillingness to face death? Wasn't that what Nick told Harry? I have to argue that being afraid of death doesn't mean you're not brave. It just means you have a fear, like anyone else. Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die.

I don't know what you mean by first step. To me, it included only regret for having given the prophecy because Voldemort decided to target Lily. All the other stuff you mentioned wasn't on Snape's mind at the time, imo.

That was his first step. He was sorry for his action because Lily was dragged into it. I think it was later that more began to hit him over the head like bricks, and later when he felt remorse for having ever joined the Death Eaters. Dumbledore says, and I agree with him, that handing over the prophecy was the largest source of remorse in Snape's life. But I just believe myself that he would later too have seriously regretted joining the dark side at all. It destroyed any idea of a normal life he might have been able to have.

Right; this is a week later and I really don't think that "I wish I was dead" meant anything more than what I wrote above at that point. If JKR wanted to show that it meant more, I think she would have had Snape make that clear to the reader. His entire rant was focused on Lily's death

As in, you think that she just meant him to infer that he wished he were dead to appease himself for what had happened to Lily? I agree with this, but I think that feeling that entirely cruddy about it made him think things through more, perhaps very slowly, over the following years. I don't think he felt full remorse for everything right at that moment, I just think it started him to thinking properly. I should have made that clearer, sorry!

I don't disagree it was a first step. But the step you have him taking (if I understand you) is gigantic. I believe you feel he felt remorse for "everything", at that time but I don't.

Not at that time, no. Again, and I'm sorry this hasn't been clearer for you! , I think he at that time felt only his own loss and wished he were dead because she was lost to him, permanently, but I do think it started him on a road to thinking through everything, and seriously rethinking his life.

It was the first time he had ever felt remorse for something this huge, so that's why I say it was a huge step.

To say that his worst memory, forever, involved the childhood name calling of "mudblood" to her in a time of personal stress, I argue, strenuously, that he regretted everything from this point (the name calling) onward. If he didn't, then why was finding out she had died not his worst memory? he certainly took it exceptionally badly, so why woudl he not recall the pain he felt then? The memories were both interconnected, so why was the earlier one his worst one? Because he seriously regretted earlier choices he made too, not just her death and his role in it.

Well I feel that is a matter of interpretation. I think that a person who felt the gratitude you are indicating would not immediately attempt to take advantage of the situtation and try to get Harry expelled. I don't think Snape was thinking in terms of gratitude. I believe he was thinking in terms of attaining an honor he felt was due to him and that the Minister would therefore listen kindly and perhaps act on his suggestion.

Then the only thing I can say here is that our interpretations differ.
I also don't think Harry would ever be expelled, he was safe at Hogwarts and that was where he needed to be, for as long as possible. Snape doubtless knew this, but still, yes, tried to make life difficult for him. I figure that this comes down to his bitterness at the trio attacking him. He lashed out. Again, very mean, especially when he had enough knowledge to be the bigger person, but Snape had issues with this kind of thing. He also retained his malignity to Sirius, despite the number of years that had passed between them.

I have seriously never considered whether Snape regretted joining the Death Eaters. There are many considerations so I would have to think about it.

Enjoy!!!

Snape said to Harry: "you would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black." Funny the "key" moment that Snape selects with respect to James' death - one in which he can lay blame on James for his own death, imo. Death by arrogance.

You're wrong. . The key moment Snape selects at this moment is one in which he can lay the blame on James for Lily's death, first and foremost.

He never cared about James other than laying blame, but he knew, he always knew, even when they were in school, that James had a much more noble character than Snape himself had. Snape would have fully expected that James would have laid his trust in the right person, not the wrong person, as Snape himself did.

I would argue that this proved to Snape that he and James were each on a level with regard to Lily. Each put their trust in the wrong person in attempting to bring her closer to to keep her safe or win her over, whatever reason you choose. And each, therefore, was deserving of her. Neither one of them evaded this fatal flaw. It disgusted Snape that James emerged the victor, when James was also later unable to save her.

I think this reasoning is also one reason why he continues to attack James' character, long after his death, even aside from the fact that he hated him so.

Furthermore, though that comment is a very harsh one (Snape's comment, I mean ), he said it because Harry yelled at him first-"Just because they made a fool of you at school you won't even listen-". he struck a nerve. They did not make a fool of Snape in school, they bullied him, Harry later admits this himself. His father did strut around the school as though he owned it, he did think he was the best at everything, all of this was correct. Harry's facts were entirely biased and he didn't know the truth. This struck a nerve in Snape, who had the same facts regarding the situation as everyone else had. As he saw it, judiciously, Harry should actually have been thanking him for "saving them". As it was, Harry did no such thing, having heard more of the true story than Snape had.

Now, I'm not saying that Snape went there with the intent of saving anyone. I don't even think that he knew Harry was there, he just followed because he saw that Lupin was going and it caught his attention. He was determined to catch Sirius Black. Harry thought this was vengeance for the bullying in school, but it was actually because of Lily.

EDIT: Again, zgirnius has cleared this up in my head. It seems that Snape did indeed know Harry was there, or at least that he worked it out along the way, when he saw the cloak. He mentioned the second he arrived to Harry directly that the cloak had been a huge help. To add to this, he was out of breath for some time when he reached there, indicating that he ran the whole way. I figure, as Zgirnius does, (and kudos to her!), that he copped that harry was in there, freaked, and ran faster.

I wonder what would have happened had they not knocked him out? Just a thought, nothing really to do with this. As soon as he saw Pettigrew, he would have wanted to listen, he would have wanted to know the truth about why Lily died. He too would have wanted revenge, against the right person.

The key moment is not when Snape delivered the prophecy, or when Voldemort targeted James (and family), nor when Peter relayed their whereabouts; no, for Snape James died because he was arrogant. I would say Snape found satisfaction in being able to blame the victim for his own death. It removed some of his own culpability (and that of Voldemort's and Peter's (who of course he thought had been Black.) And note, although the same applied to Lily, Snape arbitrarily left her right out of it because for whatever reason, imo, he didn't feel she deserved to die. Actually, I don't think he felt she deserved to die for any reason, even if she'd been arrogant in trusting Black. .

This, however, is also all true. I support both points because they both make sense to me. I think Snape loved to blame James, to make his own conscience stop yelling at him that it was Snape's own fault, and I think he also loved to blame James because he didn't see, in the end, the difference between them with regard to Lily. Had James been able to save her, though Snape still would not have liked him, he would have made his peace that Lily had made the correct choice.

In addition, Snape seemed highly satisfied everytime he disrepected James' memory before Harry, smirking and sneering and such, imo. So I would not agree that Snape got no satisfaction from James dying; I feel he made an enjoyable past time of it and was quite satisfied in that regard.

He made an enjoyable pastime out of mocking James to rile Harry. He didn't make an enjoyable pastime out of saying harsh words as you quoted above. And he certainly never made fun of the circumstances of James's death. He liked annoying Harry, but hurting Harry with comments about his father's death only reminded him of Lily.

Now that is the story I feel JKR is trying to sell more or less. But I am not sure what she expected me to make of the rest of the series. Was I to go back and rip out every page on which Snape mistreated Harry? Then yes, I could see Snape as having been "honorable for his abounding compassion". Unfortunately, for me, "abounding compassion" is not directed at one person, selfishly, obsessively and possessively to the degree it makes you vindictive, cruel an hateful. Since that is how I see Snape's emotions for Lily (which is what I mean everytime I use the euphemism "emotion for Lily"), I cannot follow this river of thought. To me, it is honestly more like a wild white water rapid that no one could survive attempting to travel. But I do respect your view, and hers and everyone else's, I just don't buy into it.

I think the fact that he only ever felt compassion for one person makes it heroic. I mean, would you bother, honestly, if you only felt compassion for one person? Pft. I wouldn't. And if I so wouldn't, then why would he? I'm certainly not as nasty as he was seen to be. I have stood by ever other thing you've said regarding his bad behaviour. It can't be discounted. But nor can I discount the fact that such a tiny piece of good conquered the rest of him. But we are, it seems, destined to disagree. And such a pity, you came so highly recommended. *sigh*.

Ah, but now he knew where to focus his efforts which is why he suggested the fidelius Charm according to Fudge. The information was very helpful and valuable to him.

Fair enough, I do take this on board. But I can't help but say that with hindsight, this was not a good plan. Also, in knowing later that his deal with Snape was broken as soon as Lily died, Dumbledore did the wrong thing in manipulating him. I'm not sure how you justify this behaviour, when you are unwilling to justify Snape's. No offence, obviously . I just don't see where you get the following idea from:

Indeed, except of course, imo, Snape's motivation was so tarnished and poor, that I cannot feel any pity for him in this particular situation. I feel he deserved to be manipulated, it was for his own good, imo.

Would that be a suggestion of "for the greater good"? Because much though I see where you're going, I think it makes you appear to judge based on double standards. It wasn't alright for Snape to manipulate or entice, but Dumbledore could do it to Snape because Snape was rude and arrogant? I don't follow this line of thinking. Of course, it might be me misreading what you have written, in which case, oops. He deserved to be manipulated because he made a choice that didn't include two people he didn't care about? I'm just not sure that this can justify Dumbledore. Explain me!

Oh sure, but Voldemort would not be hunting Harry. And James and Lily could be killed on a mission. The point is, he had not targeted them specifically prior to this - obviously or Snape would have acted sooner I suppose. Which is that old plot hole of why Snape wasn't concerned prior to Lily being targeted directly, seeing as the group he was with was killing off Order members, like Lily, all the time. But that is a dead end road as JKR never addressed as far as I know.

I consider this a total inconsistency, and always have done. Why did he not care up to this point? She was already in the Order, so he might have crossed paths with her eventually anyway, and been called upon to kill her. It's rather unbelievable in this sense, that he wasn't otherwise concerned.

EDIT: The wonderful zgirnius has changed my mind! She points out that psychologically, it makes great sense, since Snape likely tried to get over her when he could see her choosing James Potter. It does reconcile a lot, and it makes perfect sense that this "bad influence" aided him in his decision to join the Death Eaters.

I would agree 100% if Snape were merely the strong, honorable silent type who wished to do good deeds and keep them from everyone out of modesty. However, that was not the case, imo. His motivation lay elsewhere in my judgment.

I'm not saying he wished to do good deeds and keep them secret, it's more that he did do the good deeds and he did keep them secret. Where do you suppose his motivation lay? Surely his motivation lay entirely in fulfilling the promise he made in order to try to make up her sacrifice? Or am I missing something?

If the point is that it couldn't have been so bad because no parents ever complained, then it would contradict JKR's statement that Snape's bullying of the children was one of the worst things a person could do, in her opinion. So it was as bad as it appeared, imo, and there was more that we did not see because Harry didn't see it. Snape had other courses and 3/4 of the student body considered him cruel and sarcastic (CoS). So I think parents and Dumbledore didn't intervene mainly for literary purposes. JKR indicated that Dumbledore felt it was good for the children to exprience horrible professor's like Snape, which doesn't say much for Dumbledore, imo, but there you have it, JKR's words.

Taking it as a literary meander purely to ensure things went according to plan, this is quite an inconsistency too. I don't think we'll be able to further engage with it other than to say that Snape was mean to the students, but that equally, nothing was ever said back to him by Dumbledore. In a literary way, it creates a bit of a hole with relation to both Snape and Dumbledore, but there's little we can do about that. Does look bad for Dumbledore though, poor guy. He's really taking a blasting over the last year!

Then Snape's statement in issuing his doe was a lie? I thought he was being honest. That is why he was keeping his promise to Dumbledore. He was caught in a web of deception with being a spy ~ but if that had not been forced upon him, I don't believe he would have volunteered to do it. He would have probably stayed out of the war altogether, imo. That is where I think he was coming from. His improvement in not watching those die he could save was a good one, but imo, had nothing to do with his service to Dumbledore.

No, it wasn't a lie. It was the truth. He was being perfectly honest that it had all been for her. But he also suggests that he's tired and has had enough of watching people die. As you say yourself, He probably would have stayed out of the war altogether were it not for his job. That means that in some way, he must have regretted joining the death eaters. Otherwise, I doubt we would both agree that unless he had taken on his post as spy, he would have stayed out of the war altogether. It was all for Lily, but that's not to say he wasn't sorry for other things too.

I would respectfully disagree. But more importantly, Dumbledore could no longer trust that Snape would actually do it; as things stood, he could, imo.

This, sadly, is entirely subjective, and when things get subjective, we disagree. What little we have based of it in canon, regarding promises, tells me the opposite to what it tells you. Also, I want to clear up a discrepancy in that paragraph. It should read as follows, (the bold print is the bit I forgot)

Correction I think that's taking it to extremes of what I think. I think, had Snape decided that he did care for Harry, the result would have been the same. Harry would have walked to his death, the same. Snape would have passed the message to him. Same. See, Snape, for all his compassion and love, had come to really believe in Dumbledore. It disgusted him that he would be expected to give that service that required him to kill Dumbledore. But he did it anyway. Because he had given his word, which he proved, on more than one occasion, that he would not break.

I'd imagine this now also makes more sense!

It does. But I feel that Snape did that himself because some of the things Snape did to Harry I cannot place in the category of protection. In my view, there were times when Harry required protection from Snape. In the worst of these times, he got it, sometimes from unlikely sources, imo. So the extent was not really all that great in my opinion. According to JKR, Snape loathed Harry, and even if a reader does not agree, from JKR's viewpoint when writing, that is what she believed according to her statement. So, I don't think she intended that Dumbledore believe otherwise, being wise and all. If he knew that and could count on it, that served as insurance that Snape would not be swayed by emotions of care or like from delivering the message, imo. That is my only point.

There's protection, and there's protection. Protecting Harry from a flobberworm attack is not in Snape's list of things to protect him from. He was hired expressly to guard Harry from Lord Voldemort, because that was where the danger lay, and which he did, in my opinion, to the best of his ability over a period of six and a half years.

A number of new issues...and one for me to think about. . I'll give it some thought and get back to you on that.

Productive conversation, huh?! Have fun!