Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Now, I'm not saying that Snape went there with the intent of saving anyone. I don't even think that he knew Harry was there, he just followed because he saw that Lupin was going and it caught his attention.

He was not trying to save anyone when he left the castle; on that I would agree. But before he entered the passageway under the Willow, he was on a rescue mission, in my opinion. He found, and used, the Invisibility Cloak he found discarded by Harry. I think the fact that hew was still somewhat breathless even after listening to Lupin go on for a few pages, is our evidence that he was worried enough to run down the passage (rather as Harry himself had previously, in his hurry to rescue Ron).

I consider this a total inconsistency, and always have done. You're entirely correct, of course. Why did he not care up to this point? She was already in the Order, so he might have crossed paths with her eventually anyway, and been called upon to kill her. It's rather unbelievable in this sense, that he wasn't otherwise concerned.

It makes enormous psychological sense to me. I don't think he spent his sixth and seventh years, and time as a Death Eater, pining and sighing over his loss of the fair Lily Evans. Instead, I think he did exactly what some critics of the character's story arc suggest he should have done - he tried to "get over her". How? By telling himself that he did not care what she though of him, that he did not care if she and that arrogant Potter jerk lived or died, and by throwing all his efforts into his other friendships, which led to his membership in the Death Eaters.

Fortunately for the Potterverse, he did not succeed, this was all just denial, and he could not longer hide from himself that he still cared, when he learned that Voldemoirt was planning to kill Lily because of something Snape himself had reported to him. It's all well and good not to care in theory - things are different when there is some certainty, it seems to me.

There's protection, and there's protection. Protecting Harry from a flobberworm attack is not in Snape's list of things to protect him from. He was hired expressly to guard Harry from Lord Voldemort, because that was where the danger lay, and which he did, in my opinion, to the best of his ability over a period of six and a half years.

Indeed, this is in fact the reason Snape initially gives for not wanting to help Albus - that Harry has no need of protection.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

He was not trying to save anyone when he left the castle; on that I would agree. But before he entered the passageway under the Willow, he was on a rescue mission, in my opinion. He found, and used, the Invisibility Cloak he found discarded by Harry. I think the fact that hew was still somewhat breathless even after listening to Lupin go on for a few pages, is our evidence that he was worried enough to run down the passage (rather as Harry himself had previously, in his hurry to rescue Ron).

Though I can see it from that point of view, and though I love Snape as much as you do ( ), I just think he wanted to catch Sirius Black. He had already expressed concern about Lupin helping Black into the castle, and he was overtaken with feelings of vengeance. He legged it there so that he could get Black, purely out of vengeance for Lily. A secondary theme might have been protection, but I don't think it was primary in his head at all. He does express interest in getting Harry, Ron and Hermione out, proving that once again, his promise did in fact take precedence when he found Harry there. I also figure that this was another reason why he yelled at Harry. The boy was making things difficult for him, at the end of the day. So I'll go 50/50, but I don't think he knew Harry was there needing protection, so I figure that mostly he just wanted vengeance.

It makes enormous psychological sense to me. I don't think he spent his sixth and seventh years, and time as a Death Eater, pining and sighing over his loss of the fair Lily Evans. Instead, I think he did exactly what some critics of the character's story arc suggest he should have done - he tried to "get over her". How? By telling himself that he did not care what she though of him, that he did not care if she and that arrogant Potter jerk lived or died, and by throwing all his efforts into his other friendships, which led to his membership in the Death Eaters.

Fortunately for the Potterverse, he did not succeed, this was all just denial, and he could not longer hide from himself that he still cared, when he learned that Voldemoirt was planning to kill Lily because of something Snape himself had reported to him. It's all well and good not to care in theory - things are different when there is some certainty, it seems to me.

You've provided me the answer I was so desperately looking for! Thank you for working through that. I couldn't get it to make sense in my head! it does reconcile a lot, and it makes perfect sense that this "bad influence" (wickedwickedboy, are you listening here?! ), aided him in his decision to join the Death Eaters.

zgirnius, I owe you one. I'll make your cake next year, okay?!

Indeed, this is in fact the reason Snape initially gives for not wanting to help Albus - that Harry has no need of protection.

Yep!

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Though I can see it from that point of view, and though I love Snape as much as you do ( ), I just think he wanted to catch Sirius Black. He had already expressed concern about Lupin helping Black into the castle, and he was overtaken with feelings of vengeance. He legged it there so that he could get Black, purely out of vengeance for Lily.

Once Lupin and Black where in the tunnel, he had no need to hurry down the tunnel, he had them trapped. Also, unlike Lupin, he was well aware of the time of month, so he had excellent reason to proceed with deliberation. Were I him (and ignorant of the Trio's predicament), I would have waited for them to come back out and not gone in at all, instead of running into the tunnel.

I'm a little unclear on one point. You think he only ever knew Harry was there after he went into the Shack? However eager to catch Sirius, he strikes me as someone who would at least wonder at the source of the oh-so-conveniently dropped Invisibility Cloak that he found and used.

zgirnius, I owe you one. I'll make your cake next year, okay?!

Thanks!

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I'm a little unclear on one point. You think he only ever knew Harry was there after he went into the Shack? However eager to catch Sirius, he strikes me as someone who would at least wonder at the source of the oh-so-conveniently dropped Invisibility Cloak that he found and used.

That is another great point. When he walked in, he said to Harry straightaway that it had been very useful, which of course means he knew about it. Your memory amazes me, I had forgotten that.

Thanks!

That's not a promise that it will be nice, now.. but I'll give it a shot!

[boushh]

I don't know... I think protection was on his mind too, at least in part, when he ran out there. I think all year he'd been suspicious of Lupin and worried about the time he was spending with Harry, because what if he really was in league with Black and had let him into the castle at least once already? The rumor was that Black was after Harry, who Snape was supposed to be protecting.

So he saw Lupin had left, didn't take his potion... and where was he going anyway and why? So he followed him because of his suspicions and found the cloak along the way and came to the conclusion that Harry was possibly in danger too so he made a run for the Shack.

Also, if his suspicions were correct, I'm sure he thought catching Black would be fulfilling his duty (and a source of momentary satisfaction) in a few ways. He'd be catching the guy who betrayed his friends and allowed Lily to be killed and he'd also be catching the guy who is supposedly after her son too. Plus, he'd likely be exposing Lupin as helping the escaped convict and endangering Harry's life all year. On top of that, he'd also be fulfilling his duty to protect Harry by catching Sirius, as far as Snape knows.

To me this is one of those things that has a few layers going on in it in hindsight.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

I know this is a total aside, but I always thought the reason a person became a ghost was not lack of bravery, but an
unwillingness to face death? Wasn't that what Nick told Harry? I have to argue that being afraid of death doesn't mean you're not brave. It just means you have a fear, like anyone else. Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die.

...it is a black hole in which one falls no matter how they try to argue it, that is what was so hilarious about it. We had a lot of fun with this particular inconsistency in the past. What you have just written is true (although Nick added that the brave move on). However you finished up: "Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die"

Of course he'd already died! . The choice is made after death: Ghost or move on. You are dead either way so the choice is earthly world as a ghost (which the wizards know all about and their existence isn't exactly all that wonderful) or move on to the afterworld. I wish I had copied that thread before it was taken down - man oh man you would have been rolling with laughter. But it is one of those issues that it is best to let lie in the end because it was pretty evident JKR didn't always have it in mind while writing.

That was his first step. He was sorry for his action because Lily was dragged into it. I think it was later that more began to hit him over the head like bricks, and later when he felt remorse for having ever joined the Death Eaters. Dumbledore says, and I agree with him, that handing over the prophecy was the largest source of remorse in Snape's life. But I just believe myself that he would later too have seriously regretted joining the dark side at all. It destroyed any idea of a normal life he might have been able to have.

Well Dumbledore was referring to prior to Snape coming to him as he said he believed it was why he returned. At that point, it was all about Lily and I agree.

As in, you think that she just meant him to infer that he wished he were dead to appease himself for what had happened to Lily? I agree with this, but I think that feeling that entirely cruddy about it made him think things through more, perhaps very slowly, over the following years. I don't think he felt full remorse for everything right at that moment, I just think it started him to thinking properly. I should have made that clearer, sorry! Not at that time, no. Again, and I'm sorry this hasn't been clearer for you! , I think he at that time felt only his own loss and wished he were dead because she was lost to him, permanently, but I do think it started him on a road to thinking through everything, and seriously rethinking his life.

Ah no worries.

It was the first time he had ever felt remorse for something this huge, so that's why I say it was a huge step.

Oh, okay I understand now.

To say that his worst memory, forever, involved the childhood name calling of "mudblood" to her in a time of personal stress, I argue, strenuously, that he regretted everything from this point (the name calling) onward. If he didn't, then why was finding out she had died not his worst memory? he certainly took it exceptionally badly, so why woudl he not recall the pain he felt then? The memories were both interconnected, so why was the earlier one his worst one? Because he seriously regretted earlier choices he made too, not just her death and his role in it.

So what I feel you are saying is that at some point down the line, Snape thought back about everything and thought "if I just hadn't become a DE, if I had just rectified my thinking, then none of the bad things that I caused to happen in the past would have occurred". And further that Snape felt remorse and regret for each of those things - but as a whole in an all encompassing way "my past bad acts". In addition, he thought "if I just hadn't called Lily a mudblood, had changed and made up with her, not joined the DEs, then she would still be alive (and perhaps even with him) - and he felt remorse and regret for that also. Is that what you mean?

Then the only thing I can say here is that our interpretations differ.
I also don't think Harry would ever be expelled, he was safe at Hogwarts and that was where he needed to be, for as long as possible. Snape doubtless knew this, but still, yes, tried to make life difficult for him. I figure that this comes down to his bitterness at the trio attacking him. He lashed out. Again, very mean, especially when he had enough knowledge to be the bigger person, but Snape had issues with this kind of thing. He also retained his malignity to Sirius, despite the number of years that had passed between them.

Well you have explained why you feel Snape behaved the way he did, but you didn't address the point we were discussing. That was, how you feel a person in the midst of feeling great gratitude for being believed a benevolent goodsider by the minister, would suddenly turn to thinking about the bitterness of being attacked, his hatred for Sirius and wishing to get Harry expelled, to the point where he takes up the issue with the Minister.

I have seriously never considered whether Snape regretted joining the Death Eaters. There are many considerations so I would have to think about it.

Enjoy!!!

Still thinking.

You're wrong. . The key moment Snape selects at this moment is one in which he can lay the blame on James for Lily's death, first and foremost.

And the incongruency of Lily being an autonomous being who also placed her trust in Black?

He never cared about James other than laying blame, but he knew, he always knew, even when they were in school, that James had a much more noble character than Snape himself had. Snape would have fully expected that James would have laid his trust in the right person, not the wrong person, as Snape himself did.

But to me it is still incongruent. Lily was not a puppet that went along with anyone and Snape knew this (after all, at 15 she ended their relationship quite autonomously.) Would not Snape feel that Lily would place her trust in the right person too? That she was noble in that way?

I am asking rhetorically because the bottom line is that whatever answers he made to those questions, Lily comes off looking either extremely weak or exactly like James. There are only so many answers; 1) she placed her trust in James (which according to Snape's train of thought, would have been the wrong person); 2) she placed her trust in Black (like James, the wrong person); 3) she was convinced to do either #1 or #2, feeling they were the wrong choice (she's weak) or 4) Snape didn't consider Lily's role at all.

So a "James centric" thought process on Snape's part is a null argument in as far as trying to blame James for Lily's death.

I would argue that this proved to Snape that he and James were each on a level with regard to Lily. Each put their trust in the wrong person in attempting to bring her closer to to keep her safe or win her over, whatever reason you choose. And each, therefore, was deserving of her. Neither one of them evaded this fatal flaw. It disgusted Snape that James emerged the victor, when James was also later unable to save her.

Again, this would be unreasonable and incongruent thinking. Apart from leaving Lily out, which results in the fallacy above, here, the situation grows worse for Snape. He didn't just place is trust in the wrong person (Voldemort), but in the right person too (Dumbledore) and that also failed. So Snape could even pat himself on the back if he liked and say that he'd added the superior element of including a second safety net by trusting the right person in addition to the wrong one (to save Lily). But the fact that it still failed should have taught him a big lesson about this type of reasoning.

Nobody could save her, not Snape, not James, not Dumbledore, not Voldemort, and most importantly, not Lily herself. In other words, no one was working harder to save Lily and Harry than James; and no one was working harder to save James and Harry than Lily (both placing Harry's safety paramount - "go get Harry and run, I'll hold him off" and Lily actually doing so instead of demanding to face down Voldemort at the door with her husband), Just as Snape felt he was doing all in his power to try to save only Lily - and the only successful people were James and Lily because at least 1/2 of their goal was met: Harry survived. Snape failed altogether, despite his extra safety net for Lily. But Snape ignored all of these factors if following the reasoning you propose, and focused his mind on James (the arrogant), who was "level with Snape because they'd both trusted the wrong person". But as I pointed out, Snape had the advantage, trusting two people (one good), so they were not level, Snape could imagine himself superior.

Now your conclusion I don't follow at all. "each was deserving of her but could not evade this flaw - and it disgusted Snape that James emerged the victor, when James was also later unable to save her." That is completely irrational thinking if Snape thought it. What would be the "non-disgusting" outcome? They share her since they both deserved her? They both should have lost her because James was no better? And if Snape was thinking either of those things, wouldn't you agree that he was nuts? Deserving Lily had nothing to do with being able to preserve her life when hunted by Voldemort. First the goal of James and Lily was superior as it included saving one another but primarily their son. Snape's goal was to save Lily. Second, deserving Lily happened before any of this went down at all, from the moment when Snape called Lily a mudblood and thereafter never got himself together, but remained on the dark path (which I feel Snape acknowledged). Whereas James got himself together and thus 'deserved her' (a term I use from your version of Snape's POV, but I would not use myself.)

So looking at those two points (first and second), Snape thinking along the lines you indicated would be irrational and bizarre to me. I don't discount the possibility, but it is a completely unreasonable way to think, imo, based on what I have written.

Frankly, I don't think Snape was thinking that way. I honestly feel he wished to throw blame around at as many individuals as he could. He'd blamed Dumbledore, Voldemort, Sirius and now he was blaming James. He never blamed Lily - who had actually made the decision to marry, have a child, defy Voldemort thrice, dump Snape as a friend, trust Sirius/Peter, and love her husband and child so much she'd give her life for both. But Snape wasn't interested in being fair, imo, he was simply lashing out, casting blame to conceal the fact that he understood that he, together [with Black (Peter) and Voldemort] was culpable for both of the Potter's deaths, imo. Specifically for Lily's death which I think filled him with guilt, regret and remorse and his behavior was simply a means of making himself feel better, imo.

I think this reasoning is also one reason why he continues to attack James' character, long after his death, even aside from the fact that he hated him so.

In my opinion this was mostly jealousy (because James won Lily's love) and to a lesser degree, animus (but still quite a bit). Snape didn't do all of that complicated thinking about the terms and means of Lily's death when he belittled James and attacked his character, imo. I believe he was simply lashing out in frustration at his loss both in terms of love and life. And his secondary motivation was that he had a 'whipping post' in Harry, who would be hurt by this behavior when Snape belittled his father before him - and belittled Harry himself simultaneously - he always did both in each instance of a scene. As JKR said, Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's preference for another man; so while that is a unfair way to think, a part of Snape doing this was to attack Harry as well as his father via transference, imo.

Furthermore, though that comment is a very harsh one (Snape's comment, I mean ), he said it because Harry yelled at him first-"Just because they made a fool of you at school you won't even listen-". he struck a nerve. They did not make a fool of Snape in school,

Actually I would disagree; for example Snape would have seen SWM as him being made a fool of in front of a crowd - humiliated by his grey underpants showing and soap in his mouth. I am looking from Snape's POV, not the readers. And James was humiliated by Snape when he received the behind the back cut from the Slytherin; but I don't think Snape would understand that James could feel humiliation because he would assume he was too arrogant to feel it. However, that is the bottom line basis for James retaliating, Snape getting one over on him in front of Lily while he was in the midst of trying to play at Don Juan, was just as humiliating from his POV (the cut itself he seemed to ignore, despite it splattering blood.), imo.

So I think Harry's comment struck a nerve with Snape because it was true, he had felt that he'd been made a fool of; and he never could see that his own strikes caused any type of humiliation or that his efforts made a fool of his foes (they were too arrogant) - so that angered him, imo. That is how I interpreted his response to that comment in this scene.

Harry later admits this himself...

IMO, Harry understood many things later on that he did not comment upon immediately after the fact. Proof including he believed Snape had hated his mother because he'd called her a Mudblood, but we didn't learn that until a full book later. And at the end of OOTP, he defended his father against Snape to Dumbledore, so his thoughts were not 'all with Snape' in the end even though right after viewing it may have come across that way. This is very important to me when it comes to Snape's viewpoint.

I think Snape never even considered that Harry might have considered his point of view (which Harry definitely had). And that fueled his dislike for Harry, imo. He also likely felt Harry thought his father's actions were totally righteous - further fueling his dislike. The truth is, Harry saw the good and bad in everyone there and although he said "his mother was all right" in how she behaved, upon consideration, I would think he'd even come to understand that she too had responded vindictively toward Snape and James in the aftermath of Snape humiliating her - but that type of higher level thinking comes with maturity - two wrongs really don't make a right. And just as Snape should not have turned on his defender (Lily) for perceived wrongs, Lily should not have turned on her defender (James) for perceived wrongs. In both cases, the defense had nothing to do with the wrong - these things Harry would eventually see with age. But Snape himself wouldn't have see it (as he was so sorry for what he'd said to Lily) and would not have likely considered Harry's thoughts toward his mother. So that did not help or harm is feelings toward Harry. But I think overall, his impression of Harry worsened after that point based on his incorrect assumptions (which he often did in relation to Harry, imo).

So it is an interesting idea how Snape's thoughts about Harry were affected by Harry seeing that scene, in addition to all of the other things we speak about concerning the scene.

I wonder what would have happened had they not knocked him out? Just a thought, nothing really to do with this. As soon as he saw Pettigrew, he would have wanted to listen, he would have wanted to know the truth about why Lily died. He too would have wanted revenge, against the right person.

He would not have seen Peter. Sirius had no wand to make him appear. Based on what Snape said, Sirius and Lupin would have been kissed unless the trio prevented it, imo.

He made an enjoyable pastime out of mocking James to rile Harry. He didn't make an enjoyable pastime out of saying harsh words as you quoted above.

I would have to respectfully disagree. The harsh words in POA were one occassion; but prior to that, he told his side of the werewolf incident, knowing that he was withholding facts and that he was unsure of others; he called James an attempted murderer who got cold feet; in HBP a coward and filthy - all of these fairly harsh for the son of the man to hear. In the first scene I indicated, he was sneering, jeering and smirking, so he was clearly enjoying himself, imo. In the other scenes he was angry, but to me, it was enjoyment in the form of blowing off steam. Equally harsh were his majority of comments, repeated before Harry ad naseum, imo. This is because of the effect he was having on the child, which was very harsh and hurtful, imo. So to me it was all an enjoyable pastime of saying harsh words to Harry about himself and his father. I do understand where you are coming from, "rule breaking" is not as harsh in general terms as "filthy" - but you have to remember who he was saying it to and how they responded to those words (Harry) - which is distinct from our reading of it. He wasn't our father nor was Snape speaking about us in saying those things. .

I think the fact that he only ever felt compassion for one person makes it heroic. I mean, would you bother, honestly, if you only felt compassion for one person? Pft. I wouldn't. And if I so wouldn't, then why would he? I'm certainly not as nasty as he was seen to be. I have stood by ever other thing you've said regarding his bad behaviour. It can't be discounted. But nor can I discount the fact that such a tiny piece of good conquered the rest of him. But we are, it seems, destined to disagree. And such a pity, you came so highly recommended. *sigh*.

I don't know what you mean by "conquered the rest of him". I never saw anything of the sort happening in canon that I recall. The little piece of good did its thing and the 'rest of him' continued to its his thing too. There was no conquering of his negative aspects, imo. And no, I do not see feeling compassion for one person or a couple "heroic". That is why I can't buy the argument. As I explained, Snape's loyalty to his emotions for Lily (and I have described what I feel those emotions to be) is absolutely nothing to brag home to mama about in my judgment. That it allowed for him to act bravely I see as more convincing an argument, but it doesn't serve because it is negated by it also causing him to act in so cowardly and negative a manner at times, in my view.

Fair enough, I do take this on board. But I can't help but say that with hindsight, this was not a good plan. Also, in knowing later that his deal with Snape was broken as soon as Lily died, Dumbledore did the wrong thing in manipulating him. I'm not sure how you justify this behaviour, when you are unwilling to justify Snape's. No offence, obviously . I just don't see where you get the following idea from: Would that be a suggestion of "for the greater good"? Because much though I see where you're going, I think it makes you appear to judge based on double standards. It wasn't alright for Snape to manipulate or entice, but Dumbledore could do it to Snape because Snape was rude and arrogant? I don't follow this line of thinking. Of course, it might be me misreading what you have written, in which case, oops. He deserved to be manipulated because he made a choice that didn't include two people he didn't care about? I'm just not sure that this can justify Dumbledore. Explain me!

Oh don't get me wrong. Manipulative behavior is not good and best avoided at all times. But that doesn't mean that occassionally it won't work out well without harming someone - and in this case, actually helping Snape. I refer only to Dumbledore's manipulation in getting Snape to work for him on the good side - facilitating in making the step from evil toward the good side. But in the main, all the other manipulation had harmful side effects and yeah, I totally agree it was terrible. So "deserving" wasn't a good word; I should have said that in that particular instance, it served to help Snape rather than to harm him, so it was good for him.

I consider this a total inconsistency, and always have done. You're entirely correct, of course. Why did he not care up to this point? She was already in the Order, so he might have crossed paths with her eventually anyway, and been called upon to kill her. It's rather unbelievable in this sense, that he wasn't otherwise concerned.

Well JKR isn't perfect.

I'm not saying he wished to do good deeds and keep them secret, it's more that he did do the good deeds and he did keep them secret. Where do you suppose his motivation lay? Surely his motivation lay entirely in fulfilling the promise he made in order to try to make up her sacrifice? Or am I missing something?

I said Snape wasn't behaving in a modest and humble fashion by wanting to keep his reasons for working on the good side secret. You seem to agree - that he didn't 'wish' to do it for reasons of modesty or for any other reason. But rather you said that he just "did it" - but you didn't say why. Instead you explained why he fulfilled the promise: in order to try to honor Lily's sacrifice. But that is not "why" he wanted it kept a secret.

Taking it as a literary meander purely to ensure things went according to plan, this is quite an inconsistency too. I don't think we'll be able to further engage with it other than to say that Snape was mean to the students, but that equally, nothing was ever said back to him by Dumbledore. In a literary way, it creates a bit of a hole with relation to both Snape and Dumbledore, but there's little we can do about that. Does look bad for Dumbledore though, poor guy. He's really taking a blasting over the last year!

Yup, but again, JKR isn't perfect. . Dumbledore's character was built up nearly to saint hood, I think so that he could play the fall guy and still come out okay. But that is just conjecture.

No, it wasn't a lie. It was the truth. He was being perfectly honest that it had all been for her. But he also suggests that he's tired and has had enough of watching people die. As you say yourself, He probably would have stayed out of the war altogether were it not for his job. That means that in some way, he must have regretted joining the death eaters. Otherwise, I doubt we would both agree that unless he had taken on his post as spy, he would have stayed out of the war altogether. It was all for Lily, but that's not to say he wasn't sorry for other things too.

Here is my biggest problem with this. Snape said that he watches people die, only if he cannot save them. That statement has a judgment call built into it "only if I cannot save them" - meaning he has to judge who he can and cannot save in any given situation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Snape has fairly poor judgment, so that takes the 'bite' out of that statement for me. If it were a stage play, after making that statement, he would turn to the audience with a smirk: (wink wink), but I watch myself bully children except those I judge I can save by inhibiting my behavior. . I'm just adding levity here, but my point is, he was shown to be unfair in his treatment of the kids, imo, 3/4 of the school he judged to be 'unsavable' from his behavior and the other 1/4 (Slytherins) he judged that he could save from it. So when it comes to a person who thinks like Snape, the statement that he only watches those die who he can't save, has less meaning than it would coming from someone who I felt had good judgment.

This again may simply come down to a writing issue...because as I said, I think JKR was trying to make this a redemptive type statement. But when I think it through, it doesn't work for me. But I respect the fact that it works for you.

There's protection, and there's protection. Protecting Harry from a flobberworm attack is not in Snape's list of things to protect him from. He was hired expressly to guard Harry from Lord Voldemort, because that was where the danger lay, and which he did, in my opinion, to the best of his ability over a period of six and a half years.

I would even grant this to be a true statement, but we would likely disagree on what "the best of his ability" was I think. .

[wimblemimble]

Wicked, how long did you spend on that post? It's epic!

Here is my biggest problem with this. Snape said that he watches people die, only if he cannot save them. That statement has a judgment call built into it "only if I cannot save them" - meaning he has to judge who he can and cannot save in any given situation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Snape has fairly poor judgment, so that takes the 'bite' out of that statement for me. If it were a stage play, after making that statement, he would turn to the audience with a smirk: (wink wink), but I watch myself bully children except those I judge I can save by inhibiting my behavior. . I'm just adding levity here, but my point is, he was shown to be unfair in his treatment of the kids, imo, 3/4 of the school he judged to be 'unsavable' from his behavior and the other 1/4 (Slytherins) he judged that he could save from it. So when it comes to a person who thinks like Snape, the statement that he only watches those die who he can save, has less meaning than it would coming from someone who I felt had good judgment.

This again may simply come down to a writing issue...because as I said, I think JKR was trying to make this a redemptive type statement. But when I think it through, it doesn't work for me. But I respect the fact that it works for you.

I think you take things too far in saying that his behavior towards the students has any affect at all upon his 'judgement'. Since when did 'being nice' to someone mean you were trying to save them? If anything, Severus would have to come down hard on the Slytherins and the general blood prejeduces in order to 'save them' from the possibility of acting on those prejeduces and joining Voldemort.

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva! It seems to me that this is normal for Hogwarts-- whether it is a good or fair system doesn't matter (I disagree with the Sorting as well) but it seems to be the way things work. (Or, looking at it another way, it is the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry at work, with Severus and Minerva both trying to help their own side. We really don't see much from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, so I don't have too much to go on)

Besides, there is a fair difference between being more likely to give someone a detention, take away/add House points, or just generally pick on someone and to actually decide if it was feasable to save their life. The two just don't seem related in the way you are trying to relate them. Severus survived years as a Double Agent and spy for Voldemort, requiring quite a lot of decition making on his part. From that fact, I would say Severus had a fantastic sense of judgemet.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Though I can see it from that point of view, and though I love Snape as much as you do ( ), I just think he wanted to catch Sirius Black. He had already expressed concern about Lupin helping Black into the castle, and he was overtaken with feelings of vengeance. He legged it there so that he could get Black, purely out of vengeance for Lily. A secondary theme might have been protection, but I don't think it was primary in his head at all. He does express interest in getting Harry, Ron and Hermione out, proving that once again, his promise did in fact take precedence when he found Harry there. I also figure that this was another reason why he yelled at Harry. The boy was making things difficult for him, at the end of the day. So I'll go 50/50, but I don't think he knew Harry was there needing protection, so I figure that mostly he just wanted vengeance.



You've provided me the answer I was so desperately looking for! Thank you for working through that. I couldn't get it to make sense in my head! it does reconcile a lot, and it makes perfect sense that this "bad influence" (wickedwickedboy, are you listening here?! ), aided him in his decision to join the Death Eaters.

zgirnius, I owe you one. I'll make your cake next year, okay?!
Yep!

Actually I suggested this to Zara about a year ago, and she agreed with me then, which I took to mean she had been thinking the same thing. However, since then, I have thought about it and it no longer makes sense to me. I do still think that Snape tried to convince himself that he hated Lily. However, it makes no sense that when he knew she was first targeted as an Order member together with the fact that the group was knocking the Order members off left and right quite frequently (and Snape had no control over who his bretheren might kill on any given day), that he would not have felt a similar urgency at that point.

When I initially changed my mind, I actually spoke about it again and it was suggested that the "specific targeting" by Voldemort would have brought the matter home to Snape and made it urgent in his mind. But I cannot buy that because she was in even more danger targeted by 100's of DEs than she was by just Voldemort while in hiding from him (losing the 100 DEs chasing her and replaced by one big one was bad, but now she had the added protection of Dumbledore who Snape knew was aware of the prophecy and would move to protect those it might implicate). Still, when she fell into this double limited group, Snape did not act. It was only when Voldemort made up his mind that Snape suddenly thinks, 'gee, Lily mght die'. Well that is a little far fetched considering the subsequent emotion that he presumably had for her, imo.

So I have relegated it to a plot hole. But as always, I respect the view of those who are happy with the answers they have found.

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

Wicked, how long did you spend on that post? It's epic!

Actually I spend far more time in reading and deliberating prior to writing. The writing takes literally minutes. . This is an excellent exercise for me and I also feel it allows me an opportunity to carefully consider what a person is trying to say prior to answering.

I think you take things too far in saying that his behavior towards the students has any affect at all upon his 'judgement'. Since when did 'being nice' to someone mean you were trying to save them? If anything, Severus would have to come down hard on the Slytherins and the general blood prejeduces in order to 'save them' from the possibility of acting on those prejeduces and joining Voldemort.

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva! It seems to me that this is normal for Hogwarts-- whether it is a good or fair system doesn't matter (I disagree with the Sorting as well) but it seems to be the way things work. (Or, looking at it another way, it is the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry at work, with Severus and Minerva both trying to help their own side. We really don't see much from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, so I don't have too much to go on)

Besides, there is a fair difference between being more likely to give someone a detention, take away/add House points, or just generally pick on someone and to actually decide if it was feasable to save their life. The two just don't seem related in the way you are trying to relate them. Severus survived years as a Double Agent and spy for Voldemort, requiring quite a lot of decition making on his part. From that fact, I would say Severus had a fantastic sense of judgemet.

I respect your view. I didn't mean to infer that I based my assessment of Snape's ability to judge on solely that issue. It was merely an example. But I do feel that issue provides a multitude of examples of Snape making poor judgments with respect to his treatment, behavior and response to the students. An example would be when Snape caught Harry looking in his pensieve - and I do see that as delinquent and improper behavior on Harry's part, imo. He had to made a judgment, a choice as to whether he should taunt Harry about his father then shove him with all of his might to the floor and throw a jar of cockroaches at his head OR give him a strict setting down on the immorality of invading someone else's privacy and the importance of overcoming childish curiosity - together with an appropriate detention. In this case, I feel Snape used poor judgment in deciding to do the former over the latter. In as far as other issues, there are many including his relationships with adults, his decisions in the midst of his duties for Dumbledore and his personal decisions with respect to his personal growth and maturity. So I was not confining my judgement to his instances of unfairness with the students.

[RIPFRED]

I voted a kitty because I know Snape would've just thought it were the most adorable thing!

Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Yes, I do think at the time Snape should have been sorted into Slytherin.

No, I don't think he would've made the same choces if he had been sorted elesewhere. His friends opinions, wouldn't have effected him (if he did have the same friends), and Voldemort would've been much more hesitant to allow him to become a Death Eater.

There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?
For one, he gave up his life, killed someone and was a double spy, mostly all for a girl he loved, that didn't love him back and was dead.

He's a hero in many ways, though he hated Harry he still saved his life a number of times, though he hated Sirius he still attempted to save his life, and he gave his life for someone he loved.

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by WWB

I respect your view. I didn't mean to infer that I based my assessment of Snape's ability to judge on solely that issue. It was merely an example. But I do feel that issue provides a multitude of examples of Snape making poor judgments with respect to his treatment, behavior and response to the students. An example would be when Snape caught Harry looking in his pensieve - and I do see that as delinquent and improper behavior on Harry's part, imo. He had to made a judgment, a choice as to whether he should taunt Harry about his father then shove him with all of his might to the floor and throw a jar of cockroaches at his head OR give him a strict setting down on the immorality of invading someone else's privacy and the importance of overcoming childish curiosity - together with an appropriate detention. In this case, I feel Snape used poor judgment in deciding to do the former over the latter. In as far as other issues, there are many including his relationships with adults, his decisions in the midst of his duties for Dumbledore and his personal decisions with respect to his personal growth and maturity. So I was not confining my judgement to his instances of unfairness with the students.

Slight grammar nitpick. In your second sentence it should be 'imply' not 'infer'. The speaker implies, the listener infers.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand-- I still don't think you can take his reaction to Harry invading his privacy and his actions at Hogwarts and then go on to say that his judgement is lacking. Hogwarts is an entirly different location than in the middle of a Death Eater circle, imho, and therefore requires a different sort of mindset. I still hold that his ability to make perfectly good judgement calls when it came to being a spy and Double Agent for the Order ups his credibility more than any of his Hogwarts based actions demolishes it.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

"Arguably Nick, a Gryffindor, had showed bravery, but he just didn't want to die"

Of course he'd already died! . The choice is made after death: Ghost or move on. You are dead either way so the choice is earthly world as a ghost (which the wizards know all about and their existence isn't exactly all that wonderful) or move on to the afterworld.

Touché!! I take it you won that argument! Would have loved to read it to be honest, it sounds like one of those black hole type things alright..

Well Dumbledore was referring to prior to Snape coming to him as he said he believed it was why he returned. At that point, it was all about Lily and I agree.

Yup.

So what I feel you are saying is that at some point down the line, Snape thought back about everything and thought "if I just hadn't become a DE, if I had just rectified my thinking, then none of the bad things that I caused to happen in the past would have occurred".

Yes, thus far, that's roughly it. I don't think it's true to say that no-one of the things would have happened, undoubtedly most of them would anyway. But I do think he thought back and considered that without joining the Death Eaters, he would never be placed in such a horrible position, and he would never have felt such guilt about Lily's death. To this end, he would have felt very sad, but he wouldn't have had any part to play in her death at all.

And further that Snape felt remorse and regret for each of those things - but as a whole in an all encompassing way "my past bad acts". In addition, he thought "if I just hadn't called Lily a mudblood, had changed and made up with her, not joined the DEs, then she would still be alive (and perhaps even with him) - and he felt remorse and regret for that also. Is that what you mean?

No, not really. . He felt regret for the pain he caused others as a Death Eater, Lily included, and I say that because he finally felt the bitter taste of that kind of pain, when Lily died. She probably still would be dead. Voldemort would have gone after both the Potters and Longbottoms eventually anyway. Of course, the fact that the prophecy would never have been shown to him might have contradicted him, but if he had not been thwarted by Harry Potter, then he would only have continued growing more and more powerful, and then he might have killed the Potters anyway. Get me?

Well you have explained why you feel Snape behaved the way he did, but you didn't address the point we were discussing. That was, how you feel a person in the midst of feeling great gratitude for being believed a benevolent goodsider by the minister, would suddenly turn to thinking about the bitterness of being attacked, his hatred for Sirius and wishing to get Harry expelled, to the point where he takes up the issue with the Minister.

I don't think he felt gratitude at all. I think he felt self righteous and strong, but as they were talking about how he was knocked out, his thoughts sprung to Harry and the others hitting him. He got bitter. He felt vengeful. He lashed out.

Still thinking.

You take your time with that. I assume I should get to thinking too...

And the incongruency of Lily being an autonomous being who also placed her trust in Black?

I don't really think it was incongruent. Dumbledore tells us that they put their choice in the wrong person. I don't know how they came to that decision, other than that Sirius himself told them that giving the secret to Peter would be best, to lead Voldemort off the trail. They both made this mistake. Snape just blamed James for it, which isn't incongruous given his feelings toward James. Note, that he never said it again, once he found out the truth that the two of them, when Sirius suggested it, put their faith in Pettigrew. He couldn't deny the truth at that point. he just preferred not to think of her having anything to do with it.

I am asking rhetorically because the bottom line is that whatever answers he made to those questions, Lily comes off looking either extremely weak or exactly like James. There are only so many answers; 1) she placed her trust in James (which according to Snape's train of thought, would have been the wrong person); 2) she placed her trust in Black (like James, the wrong person); 3) she was convinced to do either #1 or #2, feeling they were the wrong choice (she's weak) or 4) Snape didn't consider Lily's role at all.

I think he preferred not to think of her flawed part in the decision. He was obsessed only with protecting her, I don't think he took into account that she was quite independent and that the choice to make Peter Secret Keeper was hers too.

So a "James centric" thought process on Snape's part is a null argument in as far as trying to blame James for Lily's death.

I don't see how. Just because he didn't consider her, doesn't mean he couldn't try to pass some of the blame off on James. I don't think he was being logical at all about this. He tried to blame everybody, and frequently probably found that he couldn't. James was not to blame. Eventually, this was what his decision had to be.

I think Snape got more and more desperate and he toyed with blaming loads of people. In that moment, he seemed to blame James. But he couldn't justify it and he never said it again.

But Snape ignored all of these factors if following the reasoning you propose, and focused his mind on James (the arrogant), who was "level with Snape because they'd both trusted the wrong person". But as I pointed out, Snape had the advantage, trusting two people (one good), so they were not level, Snape could imagine himself superior.

Yes, he ignored it to try to make himself feel better. But I'm not sure that Snape ever truly trusted Voldemort. If he did truly trust Voldemort, why would he go to Dumbledore? I don't think he ever saw it as him having an advantage in going to Dumbledore. It meant that he would be in Dumbledore's pocket, he must have known that. I just think he was battling to blame someone else, someone as well as himself, anything, to believe that he would not be the only one who loved her and left her down.

So looking at those two points (first and second), Snape thinking along the lines you indicated would be irrational and bizarre to me. I don't discount the possibility, but it is a completely unreasonable way to think, imo, based on what I have written.

It was irrational thinking, of course it was. He did indeed want to blame as many people as possible. But my explanation was referring to why he appeared to mock and make fun of James, long after his death.

Let me explain a little more what I meant with what I wrote. I agree with pretty much everything you've written here, so I think you misunderstood me. When I said

The key moment Snape selects at this moment is one in which he can lay the blame on James for Lily's death, first and foremost.

it was in reference to the fact that he never cared about James and why or how James died at all. It was all about Lily. He did not ever care about laying the blame on James for James death. With me so far? He wouldn't have cared if James fell off the back of a house elf into a teapot and died that way. All he cared about was Lily. To that end, he went insane, trying, trying, always trying, to find someone else to blame. In this moment, in the Shrieking Shack, he blamed James. He was incorrect, and he never mentioned it again, especially on learning the whole truth.

So really, we do agree on the majority of this, but it digressed into something quite frivolous that didn't answer many questions. It does show us though, that Snape didn't always think things through as well as he might have. I just think this was a particularly nasty moment from him.

Frankly, I don't think Snape was thinking that way. I honestly feel he wished to throw blame around at as many individuals as he could. He'd blamed Dumbledore, Voldemort, Sirius and now he was blaming James. He never blamed Lily - who had actually made the decision to marry, have a child, defy Voldemort thrice, dump Snape as a friend, trust Sirius/Peter, and love her husband and child so much she'd give her life for both. But Snape wasn't interested in being fair, imo, he was simply lashing out, casting blame to conceal the fact that he understood that he, together [with Black (Peter) and Voldemort] was culpable for both of the Potter's deaths, imo. Specifically for Lily's death which I think filled him with guilt, regret and remorse and his behavior was simply a means of making himself feel better, imo.

We agree on all of this. I'm not sure how we came to believe that we wouldn't. I think it might be that I went to a different point without paragraphing.

In my opinion this was mostly jealousy (because James won Lily's love) and to a lesser degree, animus (but still quite a bit). Snape didn't do all of that complicated thinking about the terms and means of Lily's death when he belittled James and attacked his character, imo. I believe he was simply lashing out in frustration at his loss both in terms of love and life. And his secondary motivation was that he had a 'whipping post' in Harry, who would be hurt by this behavior when Snape belittled his father before him - and belittled Harry himself simultaneously - he always did both in each instance of a scene. As JKR said, Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's preference for another man; so while that is a unfair way to think, a part of Snape doing this was to attack Harry as well as his father via transference, imo.

Some jealousy, bit of animosity, yes. But lots of pain. Lots of remorse. I think Snape, for many years, tried to reconcile in his head why Lily chose James over him. And I think he came up short in many areas, never understanding that it was simply because she fell in love with James. After all they were both talented. They were both powerful, popular in specific circles, well capable. So his relentless jealousy that James had got the girl stuck with him. He abused James' character as often as he could, and yes, transferred it to Harry. Nor was he entirely wrong all the time. As stated above, James too was arrogant and difficult. He was vain, he did strut around the school as though he owned it, we know these things. I don't think Snape was able to make this all work in his head. He couldn't work out why James was any better, and he dearly hated him for that. Hence, the abuse.

(This was the point I deviated into with the "winning Lily" section. Does it make more sense now? )

Actually I would disagree; for example Snape would have seen SWM as him being made a fool of in front of a crowd - humiliated by his grey underpants showing and soap in his mouth. I am looking from Snape's POV, not the readers. And James was humiliated by Snape when he received the behind the back cut from the Slytherin; but I don't think Snape would understand that James could feel humiliation because he would assume he was too arrogant to feel it. However, that is the bottom line basis for James retaliating, Snape getting one over on him in front of Lily was just as humiliating from his POV (the cut itself he seemed to ignore, despite it splattering blood.), imo.

Now this is just unfair . You didn't use my whole quote! I don't just think he was made a fool of, I think he was bullied. Nor do I believe for one second that James was humiliated by him, because I think that that was notihng by comparison with what he had done to Snape. Which would you rather be? Bleeding a little or lying on the street with your pants down spitting up soap that someone else your age had forced down your throat? I just think, in context, Snape's humiliation was much larger.

IMO, Harry understood many things later on that he did not comment upon immediately after the fact. Proof including he believed Snape had hated his mother because he'd called her a Mudblood, but we didn't learn that until a full book later. And at the end of OOTP, he defended his father against Snape to Dumbledore, so his thoughts were not 'all with Snape' in the end even though right after viewing it may have come across that way. This is very important to me when it comes to Snape's viewpoint.

No, I agree with you. He wasn't entirely pro Snape by the end. But I wonder, did the boy wonder also feel that relentless bitterness that prevented him from sympathising with Snape for too long ? Snape was very mean about the Pensieve moment, very crude and downright nasty. I think Harry retained the bitterness about this treatment. Though it's true that most of what he says is correct, I think he did exactly what Snape was good at. He tried, so very hard, to justify the actions of he people he preferred, hie mother and father. He did eventually think it through properly, certainly with more maturity than Snape had, but it didn't stop him from being more vindictive either. But this rather has nothing to do with this debate!

I think Snape never even considered that Harry might have considered his point of view (which Harry definitely had). And that fueled his dislike for Harry, imo. He also likely felt Harry thought his father's actions were totally righteous - further fueling his dislike.

I do agree with this.

He would not have seen Peter. Sirius had no wand to make him appear. Based on what Snape said, Sirius and Lupin would have been kissed unless the trio prevented it, imo.

Thanks for thinking that through for me! Now I don't have to!

I would have to respectfully disagree. The harsh words in POA were one occassion; but prior to that, he told his side of the werewolf incident, knowing that he was withholding facts and that he was unsure of others; he called James an attempted murderer who got cold feet; in HBP a coward and filthy - all of these fairly harsh for the son of the man to hear. In the first scene I indicated, he was sneering, jeering and smirking, so he was clearly enjoying himself, imo. In the other scenes he was angry, but to me, it was enjoyment in the form of blowing off steam. Equally harsh were his majority of comments, repeated before Harry ad naseum, imo. This is because of the effect he was having on the child, which was very harsh and hurtful, imo. So to me it was all an enjoyable pastime of saying harsh words to Harry about himself and his father. I do understand where you are coming from, "rule breaking" is not as harsh in general terms as "filthy" - but you have to remember who he was saying it to and how they responded to those words (Harry) - which is distinct from our reading of it. He wasn't our father nor was Snape speaking about us in saying those things. .

Sure, he liked saying harsh things to rile Harry, I agree.
What I meant by what I said was the "harsh words" quoted regarding his father's death by arrogance.
This is something Snape did not enjoy. I say this because he did not do it again, and it seemed to bother him to huge extremes.

I don't know what you mean by "conquered the rest of him". I never saw anything of the sort happening in canon that I recall. The little piece of good did its thing and the 'rest of him' continued to its his thing too. There was no conquering of his negative aspects, imo. And no, I do not see feeling compassion for one person or a couple "heroic". That is why I can't buy the argument. As I explained, Snape's loyalty to his emotions for Lily (and I have described what I feel those emotions to be) is absolutely nothing to brag home to mama about in my judgment. That it allowed for him to act bravely I see as more convincing an argument, but it doesn't serve because it is negated by it also causing him to act in so cowardly and negative a manner at times, in my view.

He continued his negative aspects, yes. But on a basis so tiny that they were negligible in the overall, by comparison with what that one sliver of light did for him. Nor do I believe that his love can be translated as such. I don't think he saw it in this way, regardless of how you do . I think he saw only his love for her, and that's all I see too. It's all pretty much every canonical character sees in his relationship with her. What you list does not seem to come into their minds at all, so perhaps JK Rowling did not think that it would be considered. And regardless, it did allow him to act bravely. I don't think he was a coward later in life, his scream at the end of Half Blood Prince was perfectly justified, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh don't get me wrong. Manipulative behavior is not good and best avoided at all times. But that doesn't mean that occassionally it won't work out well without harming someone - and in this case, actually helping Snape. I refer only to Dumbledore's manipulation in getting Snape to work for him on the good side - facilitating in making the step from evil toward the good side. But in the main, all the other manipulation had harmful side effects and yeah, I totally agree it was terrible. So "deserving" wasn't a good word; I should have said that in that particular instance, it served to help Snape rather than to harm him, so it was good for him.

That's fair enough.

Well JKR isn't perfect.

On this I've already changed my mind, which you already addressed, and which I shall further address later.

I said Snape wasn't modestly in wanting to keep his reasons for working on the good side secret. You seem to agree - that he didn't 'wish' to do it for reasons of modesty or any reason. But rather you said that he just "did it" - but you didn't say why. Instead you explained why he fulfilled the promise: in order to try to honor Lily's sacrifice. But that is not "why" he wanted it kept a secret.

He wanted to keep it a secret so that nobody would know. Why would he want everybody to know? It would vindicate him, yes. But he would be ashamed to admit that despite loving a Muggle-born witch, he joined the ranks of the Death Eaters. He didn't want Harry Potter to know especially, and I think at this stage, that this was because he did not want pity from a replica of James Potter. Especially since Snape would never have pitied him.

Yup, but again, JKR isn't perfect. . Dumbledore's character was built up nearly to saint hood, I think so that he could play the fall guy and still come out okay. But that is just conjecture.

Good conjecture though.

Here is my biggest problem with this. Snape said that he watches people die, only if he cannot save them. That statement has a judgment call built into it "only if I cannot save them" - meaning he has to judge who he can and cannot save in any given situation. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Snape has fairly poor judgment, so that takes the 'bite' out of that statement for me....So when it comes to a person who thinks like Snape, the statement that he only watches those die who he can save, has less meaning than it would coming from someone who I felt had good judgment.

Though I agree that judgment and Snape are funny bedfellows, I think his past actions become irrelevant when he talks of seeing life lost only when he cannot save it, cos that's really deep stuff. I don't think it can be equated with favouritism, with what he thought of Harry Potter, with what he thought of James Potter, with any of that. His judgment was careful enough that he planned and plotted his way through his year as Headmaster without having Harry die and without losing any students to death. He made a good plan to prevent the death of Harry right at the beginning. He was no fool, and I think his judgment is seen to work perfectly in accordance to what it should have.

This again may simply come down to a writing issue...because as I said, I think JKR was trying to make this a redemptive type statement. But when I think it through, it doesn't work for me. But I respect the fact that it works for you.

I'm fairly easily pleased, you see !

I would even grant this to be a true statement, but we would likely disagree on what "the best of his ability" was I think. .

Probably! But agreeing is agreeing!

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

I think you take things too far in saying that his behavior towards the students has any affect at all upon his 'judgement'. Since when did 'being nice' to someone mean you were trying to save them? If anything, Severus would have to come down hard on the Slytherins and the general blood prejeduces in order to 'save them' from the possibility of acting on those prejeduces and joining Voldemort.

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva! It seems to me that this is normal for Hogwarts-- whether it is a good or fair system doesn't matter (I disagree with the Sorting as well) but it seems to be the way things work. (Or, looking at it another way, it is the Gryffindor/Slytherin rivalry at work, with Severus and Minerva both trying to help their own side. We really don't see much from either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, so I don't have too much to go on)

Besides, there is a fair difference between being more likely to give someone a detention, take away/add House points, or just generally pick on someone and to actually decide if it was feasable to save their life. The two just don't seem related in the way you are trying to relate them. Severus survived years as a Double Agent and spy for Voldemort, requiring quite a lot of decition making on his part. From that fact, I would say Severus had a fantastic sense of judgemet.

I agree with all of this, by the way!! But I did talk about it earlier on.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I do still think that Snape tried to convince himself that he hated Lily.

I don't! I think he tried to move on, but he never tried to tell himself that he hated her, or at least, that we have seen.

However, it makes no sense that when he knew she was first targeted as an Order member together with the fact that the group was knocking the Order members off left and right quite frequently (and Snape had no control over who his bretheren might kill on any given day), that he would not have felt a similar urgency at that point.

I don't think it's the same as him being told that she was definitely going to die. Also, what if Lily and James were slightly less active in the Order for a time? Getting married, having Harry, raising Harry for that year... It definitely would have been a lot of extra work, and would have put three people needlessly at risk, surely? So I don't think this can be definitive, but I do see where you're going with it.

It was only when Voldemort made up his mind that Snape suddenly thinks, 'gee, Lily mght die'. Well that is a little far fetched considering the subsequent emotion that he presumably had for her, imo.

The only thing I can suggest for this is that the man was an awesome Occlumens and Legilimens. He could hide things as he wished, from who he wished. It must have been relatively easy for him to pass into denial, especially within my circumstance, where the Potters were less involved for a time.

Well, enjoy reading all of that!

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by vampireduck

I don't really think it was incongruent. Dumbledore tells us that they put their choice in the wrong person. I don't know how they came to that decision, other than that Sirius himself told them that giving the secret to Peter would be best, to lead Voldemort off the trail. They both made this mistake. Snape just blamed James for it, which isn't incongruous given his feelings toward James. Note, that he never said it again, once he found out the truth that the two of them, when Sirius suggested it, put their faith in Pettigrew. He couldn't deny the truth at that point. he just preferred not to think of her having anything to do with it.

I agree with you here. Severus was likely not being logical in who he chose to blame for Lily's death. Considering that this was his best friend growing up, I can only imagine how hard it would be to actually blame her, even in part, for her death. So he shifts the blame soley to James (and himself, imho, but that isn't entirly the point anyway)

People aren't really known for being logical 24/7, particularly in highly emotional circumstances.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by boushh

I don't know... I think protection was on his mind too, at least in part, when he ran out there.

I also think this is what happened. Snape probably wanted to capture Black and to protect Harry at the same time IMO.

Seeing Lupin go down into the shack, I think Snape may have thought that Lupin was planning to meet Black there and was helping him IMO. By going down there Snape thought he would accomplish 2 things. Save Harry and capture Black IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Touché!! I take it you won that argument! Would have loved to read it to be honest, it sounds like one of those black hole type things alright..

Oh there was no arguments at all. People just brought in statements from the book by a myriad of different wizards about death and we had a ball looking at them in terms of what JKR had revealed. I remember one with Sirius went on for like 10 pages of posts; the poor dude was just being "human" - but because he was a wizard it so didn't work. .

No, not really. . He felt regret for the pain he caused others as a Death Eater, Lily included, and I say that because he finally felt the bitter taste of that kind of pain, when Lily died. She probably still would be dead. Voldemort would have gone after both the Potters and Longbottoms eventually anyway. Of course, the fact that the prophecy would never have been shown to him might have contradicted him, but if he had not been thwarted by Harry Potter, then he would only have continued growing more and more powerful, and then he might have killed the Potters anyway. Get me?

Not really...

I don't really think it was incongruent. Dumbledore tells us that they put their choice in the wrong person. I don't know how they came to that decision, other than that Sirius himself told them that giving the secret to Peter would be best, to lead Voldemort off the trail. They both made this mistake. Snape just blamed James for it, which isn't incongruous given his feelings toward James. Note, that he never said it again, once he found out the truth that the two of them, when Sirius suggested it, put their faith in Pettigrew. He couldn't deny the truth at that point. he just preferred not to think of her having anything to do with it.

Ah that is what I meant. I didn't mean incongruent thinking for Snape - it was perfectly the way I feel he would think. I mean incongruent with the facts as known - pretty much what you said here and below.

I think he preferred not to think of her flawed part in the decision. He was obsessed only with protecting her, I don't think he took into account that she was quite independent and that the choice to make Peter Secret Keeper was hers too. I don't see how. Just because he didn't consider her, doesn't mean he couldn't try to pass some of the blame off on James. I don't think he was being logical at all about this. He tried to blame everybody, and frequently probably found that he couldn't. James was not to blame. Eventually, this was what his decision had to be.

Yeah, I am saying the same thing, but speaking about the facts and you are speaking from Snape's POV. but we are in agreement on this.

I think Snape got more and more desperate and he toyed with blaming loads of people. In that moment, he seemed to blame James. But he couldn't justify it and he never said it again.

This is true. And true with Dumbledore and Sirius as well.

Yes, he ignored it to try to make himself feel better. But I'm not sure that Snape ever truly trusted Voldemort. If he did truly trust Voldemort, why would he go to Dumbledore? I don't think he ever saw it as him having an advantage in going to Dumbledore. It meant that he would be in Dumbledore's pocket, he must have known that. I just think he was battling to blame someone else, someone as well as himself, anything, to believe that he would not be the only one who loved her and left her down.

If you mean let her down by her death; then we are back to Snape thinking irrationally again - much like Sirius. Snape tried to rectify his mistake in taking the prophecy and did the best he could to save her. So he didn't let her down in that respect at all (that is like Sirius saying he as good as killed the Potters - nonsense). Where Snape let her down was back at Hogwarts when he chose not to change and instead became a DE. Then found himself delivering a prophecy to Voldemort that ended up targeting her family. He did let her down in that way, but no one else had - so he didn't take the comparisons to that level. Letting her down for Snape (for a time) would have been stopping Voldemort from killing her from the moment everyone found out about it (which was all the same time). But that is nonsense, because from that moment, everyone was doing their best to save Lily (including Snape).

But here is something Snape didn't seem to take into consideration and something he could have legitimately added to feeling bad about after the fact: Snape's singular attention on saving Lily to the exclusion of her husband and child, when they were all three, specifically the child, being hunted. So yes, of those legitimately trying to save the Potters, Snape was at the back of the pack of saviors, imo, due to his outlook. But I don't think Snape took this into consideration in as far as his feelings were concerned.

So really, we do agree on the majority of this, but it digressed into something quite frivolous that didn't answer many questions. It does show us though, that Snape didn't always think things through as well as he might have. I just think this was a particularly nasty moment from him.

Actually, because I was looking from a different view, we agree on this completely. You just didn't realize I was looking from a different viewpoint. . But you explained what I meant.

He abused James' character as often as he could, and yes, transferred it to Harry. Nor was he entirely wrong all the time. As stated above, James too was arrogant and difficult. He was vain, he did strut around the school as though he owned it, we know these things. I don't think Snape was able to make this all work in his head. He couldn't work out why James was any better, and he dearly hated him for that. Hence, the abuse.

But Snape's viewpoint spoke of James at 11 as if he was the same person at 17. He clearly wasn't, as JKR has said in interview, or Lily would not have dated him. We know James was arrogant and Snape didn't say he strutted around the school like he owned it, he said he strutted around with his admiring friends based on having a little bit of talent on the Quidditch pitch. The only reason I correct you is to show that Snape's statement was not truth in fact. He had a lot of talent and what he called strutting with admiring friends was being congratulated by his team mates. We can know this because he said he same thing about Harry - and we know that was not true. Snape, JKR, nor anyone in canon ever accused James of being vain - so I do not know where you got that from. His best friend was the best looking guy on campus I believe, so it would have been a bit difficult for him to rationalize that . So when you rattle off these traits that don't appear in canon or interviews, I feel you are taking Snape's viewpoint and running away with it. I am sorry if you are not, but you can point me to canon if I am mistaken.

But to try to address the point I think you are making, is that James was arrogant (full of himself) and he sought Lily's attention doing silly and outlandish things (which Snape would of course hate.) He also was a rule breaker and we have an actual example of him being impertinent. He pranked and hexed and such and snuck out at night. So some things that Snape said were correct - and I think that was your point. My only point was that Snape also exaggerated, miscontrued and lied at times as well (again, he did this with Harry too). And that is not important except that in your conclusion you state that Snape wondered how Lily could see James as any better. The truth was that Snape construed James character as he saw it; he would not acknolwedge any maturity as James got older like his "head shrinking", and he would construe James as trying to murder him and getting cold feet rather than seek the facts, etc. In other words, Snape saw him the way he always had since he was 11-15 or thereabouts - arrogant, rule breaking...etc. And so he could legitimately ask himself that question, I agree. But he refused to see any difference and that is why he saw none, imo, all he saw were the evil glares that likely passed between them throughout their education. .

Now this is just unfair . You didn't use my whole quote! I don't just think he was made a fool of, I think he was bullied. Nor do I believe for one second that James was humiliated by him, because I think that that was notihng by comparison with what he had done to Snape. Which would you rather be? Bleeding a little or lying on the street with your pants down spitting up soap that someone else your age had forced down your throat? I just think, in context, Snape's humiliation was much larger.

I wasn't being unfair - I purposely left the bit out that they asked us not to speak about and figured we could take it up in an owl (bullying). , sorry. But your construction of the scene once again leaves me to feel that you are showing some bias. Look how you make your comparison. Neither of the facts you asserted occured. So I cannot answer your question of which I feel is worse based on the canon, imo.

In any case, I only say that to help us try to keep the scene in perspective on all sides. James and Snape had feelings. Both were capable of feeling humiliation in front of Lily by being bested by the other, imo. And that was my only point. Snape felt as if he'd been made a fool of, if you wish we can call it humiliation, which you admitted you thought he felt, and so I suppose we'd agree on that. We can discuss the details via owl.

No, I agree with you. He wasn't entirely pro Snape by the end. But I wonder, did the boy wonder also feel that relentless bitterness that prevented him from sympathising with Snape for too long ? Snape was very mean about the Pensieve moment, very crude and downright nasty. I think Harry retained the bitterness about this treatment. Though it's true that most of what he says is correct, I think he did exactly what Snape was good at. He tried, so very hard, to justify the actions of he people he preferred, hie mother and father. He did eventually think it through properly, certainly with more maturity than Snape had, but it didn't stop him from being more vindictive either. But this rather has nothing to do with this debate!

Harry loved his dad and mum, so of course he made every effort to understand from their point of view because he had no means of speaking with them. That is why we get to many pages of Harry thinking about his father. He did not try to justify what his father had done (and neither did Sirius or Lupin - which is why they were able to help him). Harry simply realized his dad was like him - like everyone - and not to be placed on a pedestal. I think he took that lesson about his mother as well. Harry did sympathise with Snape right afterward, but he didn't care about Snape, so his thoughts on that front were not long lived. Snape continued to mistreat Harry - commencing almost immediately afterward with the flask incident, and that is why, imo, Harry's sympathy for him came to an abrupt end.

Sure, he liked saying harsh things to rile Harry, I agree.
What I meant by what I said was the "harsh words" quoted regarding his father's death by arrogance. This is something Snape did not enjoy. I say this because he did not do it again, and it seemed to bother him to huge extremes.

Yeah, I finally understood what you meant up a few paragraphs ago.

He continued his negative aspects, yes. But on a basis so tiny that they were negligible in the overall, by comparison with what that one sliver of light did for him. Nor do I believe that his love can be translated as such. I don't think he saw it in this way, regardless of how you do . I think he saw only his love for her, and that's all I see too. It's all pretty much every canonical character sees in his relationship with her. What you list does not seem to come into their minds at all, so perhaps JK Rowling did not think that it would be considered. And regardless, it did allow him to act bravely. I don't think he was a coward later in life, his scream at the end of Half Blood Prince was perfectly justified, as far as I'm concerned.

I understand this point of view; I simply don't buy it. But again, I respect your view and your right to hold it.

He wanted to keep it a secret so that nobody would know. Why would he want everybody to know? It would vindicate him, yes. But he would be ashamed to admit that despite loving a Muggle-born witch, he joined the ranks of the Death Eaters. He didn't want Harry Potter to know especially, and I think at this stage, that this was because he did not want pity from a replica of James Potter. Especially since Snape would never have pitied him.

So he kept it secret because revealing it would have been embarassing and garnered him pity from Harry? Am I understanding correctly?

Though I agree that judgment and Snape are funny bedfellows, I think his past actions become irrelevant when he talks of seeing life lost only when he cannot save it, cos that's really deep stuff. I don't think it can be equated with favouritism, with what he thought of Harry Potter, with what he thought of James Potter, with any of that. His judgment was careful enough that he planned and plotted his way through his year as Headmaster without having Harry die and without losing any students to death. He made a good plan to prevent the death of Harry right at the beginning. He was no fool, and I think his judgment is seen to work perfectly in accordance to what it should have.

Well I respect your view; I believe Snape was shown to have poor judgment not only with his students, but with adults (Tonks, The Weasleys, Sirius, Dumbledore, etc.) and in the decisions he made while working for Dumbledore that we were shown. I feel that I cannot judge his actions at DE meetings except the one we saw and the verdict is still out for that one for me. So I will address it after a bit more thought. But overall, I felt he made a number of very poor judgments - especially while Headmaster (and he was joined by other professors like McGonagall in this), and during 7 Potters in his choice of spells, and other such times. So that is how I reached my assessment, not based on one single issue such as his treatment of the students or Harry.

The only thing I can suggest for this is that the man was an awesome Occlumens and Legilimens. He could hide things as he wished, from who he wished. It must have been relatively easy for him to pass into denial, especially within my circumstance, where the Potters were less involved for a time.

That has been suggested before. I don't buy that argument only because he could have occlucmens his way out of 'feeling' when she was targeted by Voldemort (rather than the DEs). So it still seems like a plot hole to me. .

I'm off to bed, but enjoy and I'll look forward to your response.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Sorry, guys. I don't have the patience or the time to go through Duckie's or WWB's (sorry, guys!) posts here, so I'm just commenting on random things that caught my eye.

Originally Posted by Zgirnius

Fortunately for the Potterverse, he did not succeed, this was all just denial, and he could not longer hide from himself that he still cared, when he learned that Voldemoirt was planning to kill Lily because of something Snape himself had reported to him. It's all well and good not to care in theory - things are different when there is some certainty, it seems to me.

I relate to this in the way that I don't always like my sister (in fact, sometimes can't stand her), or what she chooses to do, but as soon as someone says something about or does something to her, the entire situation takes a new face. Maybe not the same thing, but the feeling is the same for me. The entire situation takes on a new face when someone else without the facts, judgement, or right to make that determination about her, does.

Originally Posted by Boushh

To me this is one of those things that has a few layers going on in it in hindsight.

Not everything relating to Snape in this series is multi-layered? That must have gone right over my head!

Originally Posted by WimbleMimble

And I still have yet to see why Severus' favoritism of his students is always used as a means to his 'terrible character' when we see the same actions from Minerva!

Before DH came out, when debate was still raging, I found on the HPL the House Points running totals. I am still struck by the fact that where Snape takes (through HBP... I don't think we are told of any Points taken or given in DH) 262 Points from Gryffindor, McGonagall gives 260 Points to her House. Seems a little fishy, to me.

Originally Posted by WimbleMimble

I agree with you here. Severus was likely not being logical in who he chose to blame for Lily's death. Considering that this was his best friend growing up, I can only imagine how hard it would be to actually blame her, even in part, for her death. So he shifts the blame soley to James (and himself, imho, but that isn't entirly the point anyway)

People aren't really known for being logical 24/7, particularly in highly emotional circumstances.

I agree with you, but I would add that Lily did not seemed as fleshed-out a character up until DH. The discussions, as I remember them before the release, always suggested James as the decision-maker. Of course, Lily had to be kept quiet until The Prince's Tale, but as it was only his friends involved in the story, I still place the decision with James. I'm sure the Feminism in DH (or Lack There-of) people hate me for saying this... but it is what I feel from reading the books (as many times as you guys have!).

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

The discussions, as I remember them before the release, always suggested James as the decision-maker. Of course, Lily had to be kept quiet until The Prince's Tale, but as it was only his friends involved in the story, I still place the decision with James. I'm sure the Feminism in DH (or Lack There-of) people hate me for saying this... but it is what I feel from reading the books (as many times as you guys have!).

I think this is a reasonable assumption to make, anyway. For you, for Snape, or for any reader. The persons chosen were close, long-time friends of James Potter, persons to whom I doubt Lily gave the time of day until sometime in her 6th or 7th year at the earliest. It would be natural for her to rely on James's judgment in this matter.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I think this is a reasonable assumption to make, anyway. For you, for Snape, or for any reader. The persons chosen were close, long-time friends of James Potter, persons to whom I doubt Lily gave the time of day until sometime in her 6th or 7th year at the earliest. It would be natural for her to rely on James's judgment in this matter.

In my judgment, it is not a reasonable assumption because it contradicts canon. Sirius stated in canon that he convinced both Lily and James (POA). There is nothing about reliance by Lily or her being weak and lacking autonomy in this regard. If JKR meant for us to assume Lily relied on her husband's judgment, she would have had Sirius say that 'he convinced James, and of course Lily relied on his judgment,' imo. She further had Lily write Sirius a letter in canon expressing her love for him and demonstrating the closeness of their relationship apart from either of their relationships with James. Thus, the fact that they may not have become good friends until 6th or 7th, still leaves five or six years of time for a warm and close friendship of trust to occur between Sirius and Lily.

Snape's wont to blame James for many of his woes is evidenced in many canon references throughout HP. In my judgment, his non fact based assumptions, miscontructions, half truths and omissions in that regard were provided to allow us to understand that his word was not to be trusted on the matter of James. Indeed, the same can be said for Harry, who Snape construed similarly based on his prejudiced viewpoint, imo, and we have canon evidence to show that his remarks about Harry were also non fact-based assumptions, misconstructions, half truths and omissions in story telling, imo.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

In my judgment, it is not a reasonable assumption because it contradicts canon. Sirius stated in canon that he convinced both Lily and James (POA).

Cite?

There is nothing about reliance by Lily or her being weak and lacking autonomy in this regard.

I am afraid I have no idea what you are saying here. I was talking about common sense. Lily and Sirius are not old school friends, but Lily and James are married. It is reasonable to suppose she might follow her husband's lead in this matter. It is also reasonable to suppose she did not, but I do not see the evidence.

She further had Lily write Sirius a letter in canon expressing her love for him and demonstrating the closeness of their relationship apart from either of their relationships with James.

Or, she was showing that Lily took on the traditional motherly role of writing thank you letters for birhday presents to her young son while James was busy chafing at the bit. I know the Daddy of my kids would NEVER bother.

At any rate, both pieces of evidence you provide, explain why you think I have no business drawing such a conclusion about Lily after reading DH. As such, they belong on the Lily character development thread. It remains a most reasonable conclusion for Snape (and readers) to make through HBP. Snape has no hint of warm friendship between Lily and Sirius independent of James (whether or not such existed). And he had excellent reasons in PoA not to consider Sirius reliable.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Cite?

Well leave it to a Bruin to request evidence! . But that is what makes Bruins great [/end flagrant plug for the greatest team known to mankind]. The cite is: POA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort (Brit Ed. page 268 if you have that version). He says it twice naming them both - interestingly naming Lily first.

I am afraid I have no idea what you are saying here. I was talking about common sense. Lily and Sirius are not old school friends, but Lily and James are married. It is reasonable to suppose she might follow her husband's lead in this matter. It is also reasonable to suppose she did not, but I do not see the evidence. Or, she was showing that Lily took on the traditional motherly role of writing thank you letters for birhday presents to her young son while James was busy chafing at the bit. I know the Daddy of my kids would NEVER bother.

. Well my point was that JKR also supplied us with evidence that Lily loved Sirius as a friend of hers. I didn't mean the fact that she sent Sirius the letter because I agree with you - my girlfriend too was the letter sender. But rather the contents of the letter. She spoke of personal things, like the vase and how she didn't care it broke ~ which being as it was from her sister would require a bit of explanation if Sirius was not 'in the know' on the details of that situation (and Lily knew he was) - and that was personal with respect to only Lily. She told him about their meeting with Bathilda and did not mention what James thought about it, only what she felt. It was the warm nature of the note, finished "Love, Lily" that I was speaking about.

So while I agree that James and Sirius had known one another longer and had an unshakeable bond of brotherhood and all of that, I think JKR made it clear that Lily too loved and trusted Sirius as a friend. That is why I believe she had Sirius say he 'persuaded Lily and James' - rather than merely 'James' allowing us to assume Lily went along with it due to her husband's confidence and not her own. I think Lily too placed her trust in Sirius and then in Peter. Lily also expressed sympathy for Peter in the letter as well, so it would seem that there was a relationship between them as well - she did refer to him as "wormy"

At any rate, both pieces of evidence you provide, explain why you think I have no business drawing such a conclusion about Lily after reading DH. As such, they belong on the Lily character development thread.

Well I didn't mean anything so harsh as that. . But I do think the conclusion you drew contradicts canon. While it may seem all of this concerns Lily - it really only does indirectly - I am actually talking about Snape (and ya I know, his name has yet to be mentioned. , but that is coming)

It remains a most reasonable conclusion for Snape (and readers) to make through HBP. Snape has no hint of warm friendship between Lily and Sirius independent of James (whether or not such existed). And he had excellent reasons in PoA not to consider Sirius reliable.

So all of that leads to the conclusion for me, that Lily made the decision on her own based on her character. In my view, Snape of everyone knew that Lily was an independent thinker; free from influences that went against her way of thinking. So in considering the issue, in my judgment, Snape would know, with certaintly, that Lily had not allowed herself to be guided by James or anyone else, in placing her trust in Sirius because he knew she would make her voice heard when the issue she was facing was important. Lily did this with respect to their friendship and if we base our understanding of their friendship on the passages we have, we see Lily always speaking her mind, even when she knows it is contrary to what a person wants to hear, imo.

Okay, so that should go in the Lily/Snape thread. But finally I come to Snape alone. What I feel is that Snape would not blame Lily under any circumstance. Snape felt regret and deep remorse for his action that had resulted in her death. I feel he didn't like to think about it at all and when he did, he placed the blame on others in order to keep his mind from his own involvement which would necessarily send him reeling into misery. Remember he did this with Dumbledore first thing, "you said you'd keep her safe" (although subsequently on that day he did think in terms of himself in my view).

So I believe that while Snape himself understood that Lily too had placed her trust in Sirius, his point was, anyone who did that was good as killing themselves because Sirius was untrustworthy. In my view, that would be the very last construction Snape would place on any action of Lily's associated with her death. He could not blame her no matter what. So in conjunction with the point he was making, he could only say James because blame was being cast by his statement.

That of course raises the issue of blaming the victim which is altogther wrongful to do in any case, imo, but Snape was willing to do that in order to cast blame. It was a very emotional situation where his own misdeed was brimming on the surface of his consciousness, imo, which is exactly when Snape was wont to do this (as I pointed out with the Dumbledore situation.)

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Not really...

Okay, I'll try better!
I think Snape for a long time had not felt an entirely large amount of pain, or at least the overt loss of losing someone he loved. In this way, I think he only came to regret ever joining the Death Eaters after Lily's death, because he finally felt that pain and finally knew exactly why the Death Eaters and their leader were so hated. It was a merciless operation and I think he detested being part of it because it took Lily from him. This is how I think he came to regret the decision to join up in the first place. Now do you see?

Ah that is what I meant. I didn't mean incongruent thinking for Snape - it was perfectly the way I feel he would think. I mean incongruent with the facts as known - pretty much what you said here and below.

Ah, we're fine so.

Yeah, I am saying the same thing, but speaking about the facts and you are speaking from Snape's POV. but we are in agreement on this.

Facts as taken from his POV, yes. It's actually handy that we do this different ways. It's brought out new things.

If you mean let her down by her death; then we are back to Snape thinking irrationally again - much like Sirius. Snape tried to rectify his mistake in taking the prophecy and did the best he could to save her. So he didn't let her down in that respect at all (that is like Sirius saying he as good as killed the Potters - nonsense).

Outside of the fact that I think Snape had major problems with rational thinking, this wasn't so much what I meant. I do agree that he was thinking irrationally. He wasn't responsible for her death, but I think he maybe felt that he was, to a larger degree than he was. I think he loved her, but he left her down when he called her Mudblood.

Then found himself delivering a prophecy to Voldemort that ended up targeting her family. He did let her down in that way, but no one else had - so he didn't take the comparisons to that level. Letting her down for Snape (for a time) would have been stopping Voldemort from killing her from the moment everyone found out about it (which was all the same time). But that is nonsense, because from that moment, everyone was doing their best to save Lily (including Snape.)

I'm terribly sorry, but to me that looks as though you're saying Snape would have left Lily down by stopping Voldemort from killing her? Perhaps I have this wrong or a word is missing? Sorry!

I actually think that, if he did make comparisons, he did take them to this level. I think he tried just about anything to rationalise it all in his head.

But here is something Snape didn't seem to take into consideration and something he could have legitimately added to feeling bad about after the fact: Snape's singular attention on saving Lily to the exclusion of her husband and child, when they were all three, specifically the child, being hunted. So yes, of those legitimately trying to save the Potters, Snape was at the back of the pack of saviors, imo, due to his outlook. But I don't think Snape took this into consideration in as far as his feelings were concerned.

Again, we disagree . I think he did think this through, but only after Dumbledore actually expressly told him how disgusted he was at Snape. Though I don't think Snape ever liked this thought (in fact, I figure he resented it more than anything else- he was being asked to mind the son of someone he loathed, and he didn't think that person would have reciprocated), he came to accept it, but he could never justify his feelings about it. He felt guilty for that and again tried to blame others, mostly James, because otherwise he couldn't fight off the unnerving feeling he ended up with

Actually, because I was looking from a different view, we agree on this completely. You just didn't realize I was looking from a different viewpoint. . But you explained what I meant.

Which is always good!

But Snape's viewpoint spoke of James at 11 as if he was the same person at 17. He clearly wasn't, as JKR has said in interview, or Lily would not have dated him. We know James was arrogant and Snape didn't say he strutted around the school like he owned it, he said he strutted around with his admiring friends based on having a little bit of talent on the Quidditch pitch. The only reason I correct you is to show that Snape's statement was not truth in fact. He had a lot of talent and what he called strutting with admiring friends was being congratulated by his team mates. We can know this because he said he same thing about Harry - and we know that was not true. Snape, JKR, nor anyone in canon ever accused James of being vain - so I do not know where you got that from. His best friend was the best looking guy on campus I believe, so it would have been a bit difficult for him to rationalize that . So when you rattle off these traits that don't appear in canon or interviews, I feel you are taking Snape's viewpoint and running away with it. I am sorry if you are not, but you can point me to canon if I am mistaken.

I take this on board, but hear me out. Harry was told by Lupin that his father wasn't the nicest person in his earlier years. He was impatient with those of less talent- calling Peter "thick"- and he was cocky in terms of assuming outright that he had aced the DADA exam in fifth year. He stole a snitch just to be able to play around with it where all could see, and he was very blasé about doing so. It is says that James enjoyed the attention of Peter clapping as he caught the snitch again and again, even though Harry found that reaction quite annoying. It also says that Harry was able to work out that his father kept rumpling his hair and watching the girls by the lake. It states "Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off." After they tripped Snape up on that day, James approached him on the floor while watching the girls over his shoulder. James was also the one to start the fight that day. Again, when he was yelled at to leave Snape alone, he made his hair look perfect again. He was arrogant enough to think that Lily would go out with him if he tried to bribe her. Sirius tells him outright, "I think she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate." Lupin says his head deflated later on. Harry directly saw his father being conscious of those looking at him and working to make sure he always looked good. Lily tells us that he always messed up his hair to make it look as though he had just come off his broomstick. This is added to because we do see James doing that later on. Snape is incorrect however, when he states these things about Harry. I think all of this qualifies as canon in what we are talking about. I don't see how any of this shows good things about James, and this is taken straight from SWM.

But to try to address the point I think you are making, is that James was arrogant (full of himself) and he sought Lily's attention doing silly and outlandish things (which Snape would of course hate.) He also was a rule breaker and we have an actual example of him being impertinent. He pranked and hexed and such and snuck out at night. So some things that Snape said were correct - and I think that was your point.

My point is a bit heftier than that, but the essentials are there.

My only point was that Snape also exaggerated, miscontrued and lied at times as well (again, he did this with Harry too). And that is not important except that in your conclusion you state that Snape wondered how Lily could see James as any better. The truth was that Snape construed James character as he saw it; he would not acknolwedge any maturity as James got older like his "head shrinking", and he would construe James as trying to murder him and getting cold feet rather than seek the facts, etc. In other words, Snape saw him the way he always had since he was 11-15 or thereabouts - arrogant, rule breaking...etc. And so he could legitimately ask himself that question, I agree. But he refused to see any difference and that is why he saw none, imo, all he saw were the evil glares that likely passed between them throughout their education. .

I agree that Snape misconstrued and exaggerated, but he had no reason to think that James was any better. They continued to hex each other. James' only advantage, as Sirius and Lupin say in Order of the Phoenix, is that Lily did not know about James doing so.. Snape didn't see any difference, he didn't want to, as well as not being able to, because to him, there wasn't a whole lot of difference there. I can safely guarantee that James would never have seen any maturity in Snape either. We have character sketches of James from his friends, who were lenient and fond. Snape had no friends to offer us this. Clearly, he "cleaned up his act", so to speak. He was mature enough to be trusted not to lose the cool when plotting with the Death Eaters. Though it's wrong, it does show development of maturity and adult thinking, even from the wrong side.

But your construction of the scene once again leaves me to feel that you are showing some bias. Look how you make your comparison. Neither of the facts you asserted occured. So I cannot answer your question of which I feel is worse based on the canon, imo.

You mean, the scene in SWM where James and Sirius trip and disarm Snape, wash his mouth out with soap when he swears, pull him into the air and show his underpants to the world, drop him meanly at Lily's command and let him flail there, before taking it up all over again and threatening to remove said underpants just because Lily had rejected James? The only hit Snape got in was one tiny cut. I hate to be a girl about this, but the guy who bleeds will always look a hero. I've seen it! But I do think this comparison is based in canon. My having taken it from SWM...

In any case, I only say that to help us try to keep the scene in perspective on all sides. James and Snape had feelings. Both were capable of feeling humiliation in front of Lily by being bested by the other, imo. And that was my only point. Snape felt as if he'd been made a fool of, if you wish we can call it humiliation, which you admitted you thought he felt, and so I suppose we'd agree on that. We can discuss the details via owl.

This is fair enough, but I must question the use of humiliation with relation to James. He so quickly got his own back, and laughed at it, that I don't think the blood mattered to him at all. All attention as instantly drawn back to Snape in the air. I just think, on a technical basis, this is a scene that has to be looked at with some more care by you and I.

Harry loved his dad and mum, so of course he made every effort to understand from their point of view because he had no means of speaking with them. That is why we get to many pages of Harry thinking about his father. He did not try to justify what his father had done (and neither did Sirius or Lupin - which is why they were able to help him). Harry simply realized his dad was like him - like everyone - and not to be placed on a pedestal. I think he took that lesson about his mother as well. Harry did sympathise with Snape right afterward, but he didn't care about Snape, so his thoughts on that front were not long lived. Snape continued to mistreat Harry - commencing almost immediately afterward with the flask incident, and that is why, imo, Harry's sympathy for him came to an abrupt end.

But Harry did not lose sympathy straightaway. He tells Lupin and Sirius at the beginning of Easter that he never thought he would feel sympathy for Snape. He did not try to justify what his father had done, but Lupin and Sirius did. They thought of it with fondness and dismissed it as a silly prank. They considered the cockiness a pleasant trait and stated that all 15 year olds were like James- which Harry could not swallow, as he stated "I'm fifteen!".

Yeah, I finally understood what you meant up a few paragraphs ago.

Sooo glad! If I had to do that one once more..

I understand this point of view; I simply don't buy it. But again, I respect your view and your right to hold it.

Heck yes you do! And ditto.

So he kept it secret because revealing it would have been embarassing and garnered him pity from Harry? Am I understanding correctly?

Not entirely. That is the general gist, but there is more to it. I think he didn't want pity from Harry because he could never reciprocate on that. Do you disagree? We can go through it somewhat more if you disagree, but otherwise, what are your thoughts?

I believe Snape was shown to have poor judgment not only with his students, but with adults (Tonks, The Weasleys, Sirius, Dumbledore, etc.) and in the decisions he made while working for Dumbledore that we were shown. I feel that I cannot judge his actions at DE meetings except the one we saw and the verdict is still out for that one for me. So I will address it after a bit more thought. But overall, I felt he made a number of very poor judgments - especially while Headmaster (and he was joined by other professors like McGonagall in this), and during 7 Potters in his choice of spells, and other such times. So that is how I reached my assessment, not based on one single issue such as his treatment of the students or Harry.

How did he misjudge Tonks, the Weasleys? I see with Sirius, but nobody was more used by Dumbledore than him. It seems to me that everybody misjudged Dumbledore, and many people came away with a different view of him? I also don't know where you have details regarding his tenure as Headmaster, or indeed, McGonagalls role? I would love to know where you get these from, or read these from, so we can talk more about it. I do think his choice of spells was a bit idiotic and slightly out of sync, but I can also argue that if it was his specialty, nobody would doubt him using it to cause death instead of Avada Kedavra.

That has been suggested before. I don't buy that argument only because he could have occlucmens his way out of 'feeling' when she was targeted by Voldemort (rather than the DEs). So it still seems like a plot hole to me. .

No, it doesn't work like that. He could have closed his mind to Voldemort, or to an extent he could have buried the smaller feelings underneath it, taking them onboard as denial, because he was consistently denying them to others and from others. I think that the Lily being close to death storyline just made him approach the edge of the cliff. He was so emotionally upside down that he actually cried and begged and pleaded, which was very out of character.

Talking of Occlumency, J.K. Rowling has discussed why Draco Malfoy would be skilled at it while Harry Potter was not, and this fits the Snape story too.

JK Rowling ...I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself.

I think this is something to think about in regards of this entire side of the debate, it could tell us more if we go into it more.

Again, this took a long time to reply to, sorry about that. But I'm sure you enjoyed the break!!

Also...

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

Sorry, guys. I don't have the patience or the time to go through Duckie's or WWB's (sorry, guys!) posts here, so I'm just commenting on random things that caught my eye.

I think we're okay with that! Sometimes I haven't the patience myself..

I relate to this in the way that I don't always like my sister (in fact, sometimes can't stand her), or what she chooses to do, but as soon as someone says something about or does something to her, the entire situation takes a new face. Maybe not the same thing, but the feeling is the same for me. The entire situation takes on a new face when someone else without the facts, judgement, or right to make that determination about her, does.

Yup, that's also a great way of putting it into human emotion and perspective. I agree completely.

Before DH came out, when debate was still raging, I found on the HPL the House Points running totals. I am still struck by the fact that where Snape takes (through HBP... I don't think we are told of any Points taken or given in DH) 262 Points from Gryffindor, McGonagall gives 260 Points to her House. Seems a little fishy, to me.

It does all seem to balance alright, which is either weirdly coincidential or carefully crafted in.

agree with you, but I would add that Lily did not seemed as fleshed-out a character up until DH. The discussions, as I remember them before the release, always suggested James as the decision-maker. Of course, Lily had to be kept quiet until The Prince's Tale, but as it was only his friends involved in the story, I still place the decision with James. I'm sure the Feminism in DH (or Lack There-of) people hate me for saying this... but it is what I feel from reading the books (as many times as you guys have!).

I agree with you here too. As a plot device, we were led to believe that James made the choice, even when told otherwise. Even through the seventh book, when harry spoke to Lupin in book 5 etc, we never knew a whole lot about Lily the woman, the person. We didn't even need to know about Lily the woman Snape loves, but... just Lily... As in, we know quite a bit about James...