Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Okay, I'll try better!
I think Snape for a long time had not felt an entirely large amount of pain, or at least the overt loss of losing someone he loved. In this way, I think he only came to regret ever joining the Death Eaters after Lily's death, because he finally felt that pain and finally knew exactly why the Death Eaters and their leader were so hated. It was a merciless operation and I think he detested being part of it because it took Lily from him. This is how I think he came to regret the decision to join up in the first place. Now do you see?

I understand what you are saying - this is what I understood you to be saying previously as well. However, I don't understand how you are distinguishing between Snape's overall regret/remorse and that which he felt in relation to Lily. It appears what you have said is only in relation to her and I agree with that.

Outside of the fact that I think Snape had major problems with rational thinking, this wasn't so much what I meant. I do agree that he was thinking irrationally. He wasn't responsible for her death, but I think he maybe felt that he was, to a larger degree than he was. I think he loved her, but he left her down when he called her Mudblood.

Ah! I thought you meant in relation to her death. Well I agree with this; he did let her down by calling her this - but note that for Lily, it was not just this. She indicated it was for his calling others mudblood as well as his other dark arts interests and friends. Lily tied all of this in with her statement about her having pretended when it came to Snape and I feel her overall point was that while she had maintained that Snape's behavior with her indicated that there was hope for him, she had come to the realization that was not the case. Snape calling her a Mudblood to her face simply was indicative of that in her mind (imo).

I'm terribly sorry, but to me that looks as though you're saying Snape would have left Lily down by stopping Voldemort from killing her? Perhaps I have this wrong or a word is missing? Sorry!

. No that is not what I was saying. He only let her down as a friend by becoming a DE and all that entailed, imo.

I actually think that, if he did make comparisons, he did take them to this level. I think he tried just about anything to rationalise it all in his head.

I would have to respectfully disagree because if he had done this - say in comparison to Sirius - he would have come to the clear truth that his disregard for Lily's husband and child made him lacking in comparison. I feel he would have behaved distinctly if he'd acknowledged that.

Again, we disagree . I think he did think this through, but only after Dumbledore actually expressly told him how disgusted he was at Snape. Though I don't think Snape ever liked this thought (in fact, I figure he resented it more than anything else- he was being asked to mind the son of someone he loathed, and he didn't think that person would have reciprocated), he came to accept it, but he could never justify his feelings about it. He felt guilty for that and again tried to blame others, mostly James, because otherwise he couldn't fight off the unnerving feeling he ended up with

While I would concede it is a possibility; it is strange for a person to act out so aggressively on their resentment if there is a great amount of remorse and regret underlying, indeed driving that feeling, imo.

I take this on board, but hear me out. Harry was told by Lupin that his father wasn't the nicest person in his earlier years.

When you make factual statements like this, it would be good to include a canon reference so that I know what you are referring to. Lupin never said these words in canon. I'll break down your quote here to show you what I mean.

He was impatient with those of less talent- calling Peter "thick"-

I agree this showed impatience with Peter's inability to recall werewolf traits after being around one so many times. I feel this happened quite often because we saw Sirius likewise become impatient with Peter. However, I am interested in why you generalize this notion to "impatient with those of less talent". Indeed being one of the two cleverest in the school, James would be impatiet with everyone . We know that is not the case as shown with his patience with Lily.

and he was cocky in terms of assuming outright that he had aced the DADA exam in fifth year.

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon.

He stole a snitch just to be able to play around with it where all could see, and he was very blasé about doing so.

He absolutely nicked the snitch, however, if you are implying by "where all could see" to mean that he wished for all to see, I would disagree that the conclusion matches the canon we were given. Harry asked about this and Sirius told him that James always showed off when Lily was around. He was showing off for her, according to the canon we were provided with. Indeed Harry noted while watching that James was watching the girls by the lake.

It is says that James enjoyed the attention of Peter clapping as he caught the snitch again and again, even though Harry found that reaction quite annoying.

Harry and Sirius. . But this was all apart of the show for Lily, imo.

It also says that Harry was able to work out that his father kept rumpling his hair and watching the girls by the lake.

Which goes to what I wrote previously and supports Sirius' statement that he was doing these things for Lily's benefit. In fact, he did them 'whenever Lily was around' according to Sirius.

It states "Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off."

Context is important. When Harry made this statement, he was unaware that his father had a crush on his mother at that time. It all made sense when explained to him later (recall he didn't even get the "LE" written by his father in the snitch he was drawing previously)

After they tripped Snape up on that day, James approached him on the floor while watching the girls over his shoulder. James was also the one to start the fight that day. Again, when he was yelled at to leave Snape alone, he made his hair look perfect again. He was arrogant enough to think that Lily would go out with him if he tried to bribe her.

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon, although I didn't interpret it that way.

Sirius tells him outright, "I think she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate."

Actually, Sirius was being funny, imo. Lily called James a fathead. I think any 10 year old would understand that comment. . But again, this James did constantly when "Lily was around".

Lupin says his head deflated later on.

Again, arrogance and showing off for Lily is not equivalent to vanity, imo. So if that is your point, we would have to agree to disagree.

Harry directly saw his father being conscious of those looking at him and working to make sure he always looked good. Lily tells us that he always messed up his hair to make it look as though he had just come off his broomstick. This is added to because we do see James doing that later on.

This was all for Lily. And I would disagree that it was done for the general public.

Snape is incorrect however, when he states these things about Harry. I think all of this qualifies as canon in what we are talking about.

How do you know that none of this is true about Harry?

I don't see how any of this shows good things about James, and this is taken straight from SWM.

As I have tried to show, I feel context is important and that is why it is good to quote the canon so I can reference exactly what you are referring to. Some of what you are referring to cannot be from "SWM", for example, what "Lupin said" because he spoke in OOTP Careers Advice, POA and several other cites in canon.

I agree that Snape misconstrued and exaggerated, but he had no reason to think that James was any better. They continued to hex each other. James' only advantage, as Sirius and Lupin say in Order of the Phoenix, is that Lily did not know about James doing so..

Here again, you are making a definitive point about Snape, but misquoting the canon. If this point is to be justified it must fit with what was actually said, not a reconstruction of those words that give them a different meaning. It does not say 'they continued to hex eachother', nor did Lupin say 'James only advantage was Lily did notknow about James doing so'. The actual statements are in Careers Advice, OOTP. If you like, we can discuss those.

Snape didn't see any difference, he didn't want to, as well as not being able to, because to him, there wasn't a whole lot of difference there.

Thus this conclusion is not supported by the actual canon, imo. I think we can use the actual words to gauge if this conclusion is true or not, but we have to take them directly from the canon, imo. I agree there is no difference at all if we use the words you have provided, but those are not what was stated in the canon. So I think there was ample opportunity and evidence for Snape to see a difference based on what was actually stated. And this is important because it shows the way in which Snape was looking at the situation.

We have character sketches of James from his friends, who were lenient and fond. Snape had no friends to offer us this.

Huh? The Prince's Tale was an offering from Snape's friend, Lily. The sketches she offered of Snape were not good, but that does not mean she wasn't a friend. She conceded they were best friends and she was fond of him and she revealed aspects of his young personality just as James friends did about him. And the thing is, Snape was also present with Lily, adding to that depiction.

Clearly, he "cleaned up his act", so to speak. He was mature enough to be trusted not to lose the cool when plotting with the Death Eaters. Though it's wrong, it does show development of maturity and adult thinking, even from the wrong side.

Are you being serious? If so, I would have to disagree that Snape's joining the death eaters and becoming a minion of Voldemort's shows any sign of growth or maturity with respect to his adult thinking. But if you were joking, then .

You mean, the scene in SWM where James and Sirius trip and disarm Snape, wash his mouth out with soap when he swears, pull him into the air and show his underpants to the world, drop him meanly at Lily's command and let him flail there, before taking it up all over again and threatening to remove said underpants just because Lily had rejected James? The only hit Snape got in was one tiny cut. I hate to be a girl about this, but the guy who bleeds will always look a hero. I've seen it! But I do think this comparison is based in canon. My having taken it from SWM...

This is closer, but still an erroneous re-telling of the canon, imo. For example, tiny cuts do not cause blood to splatter all over one's clothes. I know this for a fact having received numerous cuts of various degrees when young in connection with sports. Your redention of the scene is not altogether in order either. And this is only important if you actually recall the scene in this way, in which case I think we should quote the canon to reach a valid conclusion.

This is fair enough, but I must question the use of humiliation with relation to James. He so quickly got his own back, and laughed at it, that I don't think the blood mattered to him at all. All attention as instantly drawn back to Snape in the air. I just think, on a technical basis, this is a scene that has to be looked at with some more care by you and I.

So what was he feeling? Surely you don't think he had no feelings? Snape did not believe he did, but everyone of course has feelings. And telling me that he only had a need for revenge is not enough because it doesn't explain why that need arose.

But Harry did not lose sympathy straightaway. He tells Lupin and Sirius at the beginning of Easter that he never thought he would feel sympathy for Snape. He did not try to justify what his father had done, but Lupin and Sirius did. They thought of it with fondness and dismissed it as a silly prank. They considered the cockiness a pleasant trait and stated that all 15 year olds were like James- which Harry could not swallow, as he stated "I'm fifteen!".

This was only a couple of days later as I recall. So I am not sure of your point. I also disagree with your interpretation of what Lupin and Sirius said. Again, I would ask that we quote the canon in making our points.

Not entirely. That is the general gist, but there is more to it. I think he didn't want pity from Harry because he could never reciprocate on that. Do you disagree? We can go through it somewhat more if you disagree, but otherwise, what are your thoughts?

Yes, I do disagree. However, I was merely trying to understand your viewpoint. I am still a little fuzzy on the pity issue . I personally still feel about this the way I indicated I did in my previous post. I can restate that if you have forgotten. (This is as to why Snape didn't wish to tell anyone, especially Harry, that he had made his promise to help due to his emotions for Lily)

How did he misjudge Tonks, the Weasleys?

I didn't say he misjudged them. I said he used poor judgment in is interaction with them. In HBP, Snape decided to taunt Tonks about her patronus when she was in a fragile state. In OOTP, Snape decided to completely ignore the Weasleys when Arthur, a fellow Order member, returned from his near death experience at the hospital. Snape's judgment in this situations relative to how he chose to act was very poor, imo.

It seems to me that everybody misjudged Dumbledore, and many people came away with a different view of him?

I do not understand what people misjudging Dumbledore has to do with Snape's poor judgment. I do not mean to suggest that Snape was the only person who ever showed poor judgment. I simply feel that Snape constantly showed poor judgment, with very few exceptions.

I also don't know where you have details regarding his tenure as Headmaster, or indeed, McGonagalls role? I would love to know where you get these from, or read these from, so we can talk more about it.

I was speaking of what we know was occuring while he was Head master and while the other professors on the good side were working at Hogwarts in 7th year. I don't care what they actually did, that is irrelevant to my point. What they didn't do was get those kids out of Hogwarts, and that is all that matters to the point I made.

No, it doesn't work like that. He could have closed his mind to Voldemort, or to an extent he could have buried the smaller feelings underneath it, taking them onboard as denial, because he was consistently denying them to others and from others. I think that the Lily being close to death storyline just made him approach the edge of the cliff. He was so emotionally upside down that he actually cried and begged and pleaded, which was very out of character.

How can you be certain how it works with Snape? I readily admit that anything is possible, but I do not think we have any information regarding Snape's occlucmency skills except to know they were good and that Harry could bypass them with Voldemort's soul piece if Snape wasn't expecting it. I do not see anything except a plot hole here.

Talking of Occlumency, J.K. Rowling has discussed why Draco Malfoy would be skilled at it while Harry Potter was not, and this fits the Snape story too.



I think this is something to think about in regards of this entire side of the debate, it could tell us more if we go into it more.

But this is relative to Draco and Harry only. Not Snape or Bella or Dumbledore. Quite obviously it is distinct for everyone as JKR pointed out. So I don't think we can conclusively use this skill to try and cover the plot hole related to Snape as a Death Eater.

All right, I'm out for a while - but great conversation as always. I think we need to quote the canon a bit more tho on the SWM issues with respect to how Snape saw things.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I understand what you are saying - this is what I understood you to be saying previously as well. However, I don't understand how you are distinguishing between Snape's overall regret/remorse and that which he felt in relation to Lily. It appears what you have said is only in relation to her and I agree with that.

Basically, what I see is that no person could enjoy the life Snape had. I don't think even you would think it was pleasant. He hated what happened to Lily. It made him rethink. When he rethought, he likely thought that joining the Death Eaters was a bad idea in the first place. But it was what happened to Lily that made that happen, yes.

Ah! I thought you meant in relation to her death. Well I agree with this; he did let her down by calling her this - but note that for Lily, it was not just this. She indicated it was for his calling others mudblood as well as his other dark arts interests and friends. Lily tied all of this in with her statement about her having pretended when it came to Snape and I feel her overall point was that while she had maintained that Snape's behavior with her indicated that there was hope for him, she had come to the realization that was not the case. Snape calling her a Mudblood to her face simply was indicative of that in her mind (imo).

I got all that, yep.

. No that is not what I was saying. He only let her down as a friend by becoming a DE and all that entailed, imo.

Now see, that makes sense!

I would have to respectfully disagree because if he had done this - say in comparison to Sirius - he would have come to the clear truth that his disregard for Lily's husband and child made him lacking in comparison. I feel he would have behaved distinctly if he'd acknowledged that.

Though I agree that this should have happened, I don't think he had the emotional depth or the ability to be logical like you or I. His own character shows on more than one occasion that he wasn't the most sensible in thinking things through at all, and he had difficulty accepting his own flaws.

While I would concede it is a possibility; it is strange for a person to act out so aggressively on their resentment if there is a great amount of remorse and regret underlying, indeed driving that feeling, imo.

Not if they weren't the bigger person, and Snape wasn't the bigger person.

I agree this showed impatience with Peter's inability to recall werewolf traits after being around one so many times. I feel this happened quite often because we saw Sirius likewise become impatient with Peter. However, I am interested in why you generalize this notion to "impatient with those of less talent". Indeed being one of the two cleverest in the school, James would be impatiet with everyone . We know that is not the case as shown with his patience with Lily.

Fair enough, I used the incorrect word, I should have said "impatient with one of less talent".

Patient with Lily though he was, he did take his impatience out on others. In this instance, Snape. As soon as Lily's back was turned, James rounded once more on Snape and...

Snapes Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix "Right", said James, who looked furious now, "right.." There was another flash of light, and Snape was once again hanging upside down in the air.

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon.

Plausible?

Snapes Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix "Well, I thought that paper was a piece of cake", he heard Sirius say. "I'll be surprised if I don't get 'Outstanding' on it at least." "Me too", said James.

He absolutely nicked the snitch, however, if you are implying by "where all could see" to mean that he wished for all to see, I would disagree that the conclusion matches the canon we were given. Harry asked about this and Sirius told him that James always showed off when Lily was around. He was showing off for her, according to the canon we were provided with. Indeed Harry noted while watching that James was watching the girls by the lake.

I think you're setting too much store by singular words in my posts. I will try to rectify it. Again, I meant the girls by the lake. Having re read it though, there were other students around.

Snape's Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix Sirius stared around at the students milling over the grass, looking rather haughty and bored, but very handsomely so

So it does sound, on reflection, as though there were more than the four under the tree, Snape and the girls by the lake. Nor did I mean that he deliberately did it for all to watch him. This was for Lily. But he didn't care either, that others could see him.

Harry and Sirius.

Ironic, isn't it, that Sirius changed his tune later on? That he "beamed reminiscently" upon hearing about it?

Which goes to what I wrote previously and supports Sirius' statement that he was doing these things for Lily's benefit. In fact, he did them 'whenever Lily was around' according to Sirius.

I know we'll likely disagree here, but that alone doesn't justify the arrogance.

Context is important. When Harry made this statement, he was unaware that his father had a crush on his mother at that time. It all made sense when explained to him later (recall he didn't even get the "LE" written by his father in the snitch he was drawing previously)

I do recall that. But again, it doesn't stop the idea that Sirius alone could make James stop gloating. And why have we deviated? This is about Snape!

I think this is a plausible interpretation based on the canon, although I didn't interpret it that way.

What way do you interpret it? It sounds very interesting, given this.

Snape's Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix "This'll liven you up Padfoot", said James quietly. "Look Who it is...." Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. "Excelent", he said softly. "Snivellus." Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at. Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he left the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up. ... "All right, Snivellus?" said James loudly.

Snape's Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix Snape lay panting on the ground. James and Sirius advanced on him, wands raised, James glancing over his shoulder at the girls at the water's edge as he went.

Snape's Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix "Leave him ALONE!" James and Sirius looked round. James' free hand immediately jumped to his hair.

Snape's Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix "You think you're funny", she said coldly. "But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone." "I will if you go out with me Evans", said James quickly. "Go on, go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again."

Actually, Sirius was being funny, imo. Lily called James a fathead. I think any 10 year old would understand that comment. . But again, this James did constantly when "Lily was around".

I think he was trying to be funny, yes. But again, it doesn't take away from the fact that Sirius did know this about James and said nothing tangible.

Again, arrogance and showing off for Lily is not equivalent to vanity, imo. So if that is your point, we would have to agree to disagree.

We'll have to agree to disagree. He thought a lot of himself, that's for sure, even if it was for Lily. He also hexed people simply because he could (Careers Advice, Order of the Phoenix) and he did have a big head (I say this because Sirius says in Careers Advice that James deflated his head later on.)

How do you know that none of this is true about Harry?

I think, after reading seven books about Harry, that he showed no signs of vanity, didn't care what he looked like, never acted like a "fathead" to impress a girl, certainly never used his wand to achieve that aim, never nicked from the school's property... He did not strut about the school as though he owned it... Harry had nothing dislikable (new word?) about him, as such, other than a temper near the fore, possibly coming from the piece of Voldemort in him. I think Sanpe was therefore incorrect in saying these things. Quoting canon in this case is quite difficult, as far as I'm concerned. I just do not see these things about Harry at all.

As I have tried to show, I feel context is important and that is why it is good to quote the canon so I can reference exactly what you are referring to. Some of what you are referring to cannot be from "SWM", for example, what "Lupin said" because he spoke in OOTP Careers Advice, POA and several other cites in canon.

I meant the part from "Snape's Worst Memory", it has very little to do with what they said afterward, other than that they said it.

Here again, you are making a definitive point about Snape, but misquoting the canon. If this point is to be justified it must fit with what was actually said, not a reconstruction of those words that give them a different meaning. It does not say 'they continued to hex eachother', nor did Lupin say 'James only advantage was Lily did notknow about James doing so'. The actual statements are in Careers Advice, OOTP. If you like, we can discuss those.

No, it says the following.

Career's Advice, Order of the Phoenix "And stopped hexing people for the fun of it", said Lupin. "Even Snape?" said Harry. "Well", said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I ean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" "And my Mom was okay with that?" "She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth", said Sirius. "I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him on front of her, did he?"

I read that as they continued to hex each other.. And it was an advantage to James in that Lily did not know he was doing it to Snape, but she did likely know that Snape was hexing James.

Thus this conclusion is not supported by the actual canon, imo. I think we can use the actual words to gauge if this conclusion is true or not, but we have to take them directly from the canon, imo. I agree there is no difference at all if we use the words you have provided, but those are not what was stated in the canon. So I think there was ample opportunity and evidence for Snape to see a difference based on what was actually stated. And this is important because it shows the way in which Snape was looking at the situation.

I simply do not think, based on the better canon above, that Snape saw a huge difference between himself and James in terms of winning Lily's affections. I don't think he could quite see the justification behind her choosing James when they continued to hex one another, and I don't think he could justify Lily choosing James. I think he picked the moment in which he called her a Mudblod as his worst time, but I think he couldn't quite see what was worse about than than what James had done to Snape, who was supposedly her oldest friend. I know that's POV, but you have to take guesses somewhere.

Huh? The Prince's Tale was an offering from Snape's friend, Lily. The sketches she offered of Snape were not good, but that does not mean she wasn't a friend. She conceded they were best friends and she was fond of him and she revealed aspects of his young personality just as James friends did about him. And the thing is, Snape was also present with Lily, adding to that depiction.

But not so much as did Sirius and Lupin in "Careers Advice". We saw a very flawed image of Snape from Lily's POV, considering he had just called her a Mudblood. There is a section just prior to this where she was questioning his use of Dark Magic that I agree with. Snape was an unsavoury character, but the anger from Lily when he came to the Common Room ("The Princce's Tale") to apologise must be counted as such. She was very, very angry. So angry that they appear not to have been friends again.

Are you being serious? If so, I would have to disagree that Snape's joining the death eaters and becoming a minion of Voldemort's shows any sign of growth or maturity with respect to his adult thinking. But if you were joking, then .

I'm not joking, you just misunderstand me. I am not making allowances for what he did, at all. I think it was the stupidest decision he ever made, and it's not the decision I'm talking about. But there can be no denying that Snape was trusted in there. He must have planned and plotted, must have been trusted to keep his secrets, and though growth and maturity are perhaps the wrong words, do you see where I'm coming from?

It's sort of like, Voldemort had good qualities even though he used them in the wrong ways. Snape was the same. He chose to use qualities in the wrong way. Get me?

This is closer, but still an erroneous re-telling of the canon, imo. For example, tiny cuts do not cause blood to splatter all over one's clothes.

No, tiny cuts don't, that's true. But neither did it incapacitate James, nor did he yell about it. So I don't think it was as huge as it can be made out to be. If it was big enough, he would have said something, surely? Regardless of brevity, a yell wouldn't hurt...

Snape's Worst Memory, Order of the Phoenix But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled around...

I also figure that, in whirling, blood would have went a bit further. I'm sure with sports injuries you might have seen this occur too. Displaying a split second in text is difficult, but I imagine James turned even before the cut was made.

So what was he feeling? Surely you don't think he had no feelings? Snape did not believe he did, but everyone of course has feelings. And telling me that he only had a need for revenge is not enough because it doesn't explain why that need arose.

How James was feeling? Annoyed. I know I would have been annoyed. But not necessarily humiliated, not in context. The annoyed idea allows for the revenge.

This was only a couple of days later as I recall. So I am not sure of your point. I also disagree with your interpretation of what Lupin and Sirius said. Again, I would ask that we quote the canon in making our points.

I'm not so sure that it was a few days later. The Occlumency lessons weren't exactly the most timetabled things. Herminoe asks Harry on the first day of the Easter Holidays "Why haven't you got Occlumency lessons anymore?" (Career's Advice). We're not actually told that it was a few later, and that's a bit annoying to me. If you can find proof either way, I'd love it.

Yes, I do disagree. However, I was merely trying to understand your viewpoint. I am still a little fuzzy on the pity issue . I personally still feel about this the way I indicated I did in my previous post. I can restate that if you have forgotten. (This is as to why Snape didn't wish to tell anyone, especially Harry, that he had made his promise to help due to his emotions for Lily)

I haven't forgotten . If you're still fuzzy on the pity issue, fair enough. Can't do much to change your mind on it.

I didn't say he misjudged them. I said he used poor judgment in is interaction with them. In HBP, Snape decided to taunt Tonks about her patronus when she was in a fragile state. In OOTP, Snape decided to completely ignore the Weasleys when Arthur, a fellow Order member, returned from his near death experience at the hospital. Snape's judgment in this situations relative to how he chose to act was very poor, imo.

Again, wrong word from me. But I don't think that's poor judgement. I think he was jealous of Tonks and Lupin. I don't think he exercised poor judgement in leaving without acknowledging the Weasleys. I just reckoned he wanted to get away from Sirius. Molly Weasley seemed to have some respect for him just moments earlier...

Occlumency, Order of the Phoenix "Snape?" said Harry blankly. "Professor Snape, dear," said Mrs. Weasley reprovingly.

and later..

Occlumency, Order of the Phoenix Both Sirius and Snape lowered their wands. Harry looked from one to the other. Each wore an expression of utmost contempt, yet the unexpected entrance of so many witnesses seemed to have brought them to their senses. Snape pocketed his wand, turned on his heel and swept back across the kitchen, passing the Weasleys without comment. At the door, he looked back. "Six o clock, Monday evening, Potter."

I just don't see what it has to do with poor judgement, as opposed to getting out.

I was speaking of what we know was occuring while he was Head master and while the other professors on the good side were working at Hogwarts in 7th year. I don't care what they actually did, that is irrelevant to my point. What they didn't do was get those kids out of Hogwarts, and that is all that matters to the point I made.

I see what you mean now, but I don't see how they could have gotten the students out? Dumbledore himself seemed to think that the students would stay, and that Snape would do everything he could to protect them, he got that promise from him, we saw it in The Prince's Tale, shortly after Snape discovered Dumbledore would die. What would the teachers have done with the students? I'm not sure there was much choice for where they could otherwise go... Other than home? Is that what you mean?

How can you be certain how it works with Snape? I readily admit that anything is possible, but I do not think we have any information regarding Snape's occlucmency skills except to know they were good and that Harry could bypass them with Voldemort's soul piece if Snape wasn't expecting it. I do not see anything except a plot hole here.

I can't be certain, I just think, no offence, that my idea is closer what we're told in the books. If Snape can protect Voldemort from seeing his mind, then maybe by doing this so often, he ends up in denial. I don't think he could just get rid of the feeling totally with it.

But this is relative to Draco and Harry only. Not Snape or Bella or Dumbledore. Quite obviously it is distinct for everyone as JKR pointed out. So I don't think we can conclusively use this skill to try and cover the plot hole related to Snape as a Death Eater.

I just kinda thought it sounded like Snape in places, but we'll discount it. As for Bella, whole other kettle of fish!

Goodnight!

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

What would the teachers have done with the students? I'm not sure there was much choice for where they could otherwise go... Other than home? Is that what you mean?

Muggleborns were not allowed to attend, and school attendance for all others, was mandatory. These policies were, I imagine, Voldemort's. Snape had little choice but to go along with them.

I can't be certain, I just think, no offence, that my idea is closer what we're told in the books. If Snape can protect Voldemort from seeing his mind, then maybe by doing this so often, he ends up in denial. I don't think he could just get rid of the feeling totally with it.

What bypassed Snape's Occlumency defenses, IMO, was Snape's own Legilimens spell, which Harry turned back on him with a Shield Charm. As Snape would never cast a Legilimens spell verbally at Voldemort for Voldemort to deflect (there are much cleaner ways to kill oneself) this would never have happened. So, no plot hole that I can see.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Muggleborns were not allowed to attend, and school attendance for all others, was mandatory. These policies were, I imagine, Voldemort's. Snape had little choice but to go along with them.

What bypassed Snape's Occlumency defenses, IMO, was Snape's own Legilimens spell, which Harry turned back on him with a Shield Charm. As Snape would never cast a Legilimens spell verbally at Voldemort for Voldemort to deflect (there are much cleaner ways to kill oneself) this would never have happened. So, no plot hole that I can see.

Yup, with you on all of that. The Occlumency/Legilimency thing was never made entirely clear. The best we can do is guess politely at it and hope we have the general gist. It seems to have all sorts of capabilities, but I suppose any doubts we have is covered by Snape calling it "obscure"!

[wickedwickedboy]

From the Snape and Lily thread.

With respect to Snape being like Tobias in character when he grew up, I found an uncanny similarity between the scene we saw of Tobias yelling at Snape's cowering mother, Eileen - and the scene where Snape is yelling at a cowering Harry in his office following the Occlucmency lessons.

Snape was in a similar venemous rage as Tobias, imo, with spittle coming from his mouth and facing down the helpless Harry. We have no canon that Tobias became physically abusive with Eileen, but he may have. Snape did; he shoved Harry with all of his might to the floor and then threw a jar of cockroaches at the child's head as he was trying to flee (OOTP, SWM). However, another similarlity arises when later Snape is with Harry in the classroom and the flask incident occurs, showing Snape's continued vindictiveness in my judgment. This was like Tobias as well because Snape told Lily that Tobias was still at it when Lilly asked - so it would seem he had a vindictive nature like his son. So it is very possible that Snape's behavior in this regard was in mimicking that of his father. Although it may have also been influenced by Voldemeort who had a similar bullying nature.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

From the Snape and Lily thread.

With respect to Snape being like Tobias in character when he grew up, I found an uncanny similarity between the scene we saw of Tobias yelling at Snape's cowering mother, Eileen - and the scene where Snape is yelling at a cowering Harry in his office following the Occlucmency lessons.

Snape was in a similar venemous rage as Tobias, imo, with spittle coming from his mouth and facing down the helpless Harry. We have no canon that Tobias became physically abusive with Eileen, but he may have. Snape did; he shoved Harry with all of his might to the floor and then threw a jar of cockroaches at the child's head as he was trying to flee (OOTP, SWM). However, another similarlity arises when later Snape is with Harry in the classroom and the flask incident occurs, showing Snape's continued vindictiveness in my judgment. This was like Tobias as well because Snape told Lily that Tobias was still at it when Lilly asked - so it would seem he had a vindictive nature like his son. So it is very possible that Snape's behavior in this regard was in mimicking that of his father. Although it may have also been influenced by Voldemeort who had a similar bullying nature.

I agree with you on all of that, and I think it's very sad part to the character of Snape. It's upsetting to think that he essentially turned into his father, likely the one person he wanted to be nothing like.

It's a deep irony in that way, and it makes me feel huge sympathy for Snape, because fundamentally, as he showed, his feelings were much more capable and endearing than his father's, and the good things he did really shone through. He was a fundamentally different person from his father, and it's really sad that that could never really happen.

I do also agree that Voldemort had some part to play in this. He brought out the worst in people, for sure, so I think the poor and shady characteristics of his father really came out because of him too.

[PerfectDystopia]

I don't think we know enough about Tobias Snape to start making parallels between him and Severus. The two things we know of him was Severus' memory of Tobias shouting at a cowering Eileen and Severus telling Lily that his dad doesn't like anything. I know we can inferrence that Tobias was a bad father/husband/person, but based on personal experience, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Tobias may have been a bad father/husband/person when Severus was a kid, but we have no proof that he didn't change as Severus grew older.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia

I don't think we know enough about Tobias Snape to start making parallels between him and Severus. The two things we know of him was Severus' memory of Tobias shouting at a cowering Eileen and Severus telling Lily that his dad doesn't like anything. I know we can inferrence that Tobias was a bad father/husband/person, but based on personal experience, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Tobias may have been a bad father/husband/person when Severus was a kid, but we have no proof that he didn't change as Severus grew older.

We don't have eny evidence that he did, either, so I personally am going with what we do have. If there's no amendment or any further mention of him in the books, he likely didn't change or in any case it didn't matter to anything if he did.

[Ifink2much]

I don't really know anything about the theory of abused children adopting habits from their parents.Most of Snapes outburst to me seems to come from pent-up rage that is not addressed or delt with and is thus expressed in short ,sharp bursts.True he's generally in a foul mood most of the time,but I think the dislays of anger come more from him not dealing with his feelings and surpressing them(which he may do).Both the instances you mention are over matters that are very sore subjects for him.You could argue that Harry gets irrationally angry whenever his parents are mentioned(mainly by snape),he does infact get violent towards malfoy after the quidditch match.My point here is everyone has their limits.This is by no means a healthy way to deal with emotions,I'm just saying it shown in other characters too.I suppose you could argue the age difference and Snape should know better.I dunno,like I said,it was a touchy subject for him.
Having said all that Snape one of the characters I've analysed the least,I could be comepletly wrong.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Ifink2much

This is by no means a healthy way to deal with emotions,I'm just saying it shown in other characters too.I suppose you could argue the age difference and Snape should know better.I dunno,like I said,it was a touchy subject for him.

Right - in the books it seems to be human nature to lash out at people in anger. Arthur Weasley has a public fist-fight with Lucius Malfoy! Harry tries to strangle Sirius Black, and then in HBP he tries to publically strangle Mundungus Fletcher.

None of that even counts the times that Ginny uses her bat-bogey hex, for which she is rewarded by Slughorn because it is a sign of how "powerful" she is. That might give a clue to the way Slytherins are encouraged to use their powers.

Also, I think we just have to cut Snape some slack - he's got the Dark Mark burning him, Harry doesn't try very hard to see his point of view, he's worried about Dumbledore, and his life is basically a misery most of the time. But all the other adult males show an angry side - even Dumbledore at times - so I think he is consistant with other characters.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Right - in the books it seems to be human nature to lash out at people in anger. Arthur Weasley has a public fist-fight with Lucius Malfoy! Harry tries to strangle Sirius Black, and then in HBP he tries to publically strangle Mundungus Fletcher.

None of that even counts the times that Ginny uses her bat-bogey hex, for which she is rewarded by Slughorn because it is a sign of how "powerful" she is. That might give a clue to the way Slytherins are encouraged to use their powers.

Also, I think we just have to cut Snape some slack - he's got the Dark Mark burning him, Harry doesn't try very hard to see his point of view, he's worried about Dumbledore, and his life is basically a misery most of the time. But all the other adult males show an angry side - even Dumbledore at times - so I think he is consistant with other characters.

I actually hadn't thought of that. There are hundreds of instances where power is seen as a good thing and a little bit of anger doesn't exactly go astray in many areas throughout the books. Snape (and his father) are certainly not alone in having moments of anger that burst out. Even harry and Ron have them. Hermione smacked Draco Malfoy! It's actually anninteresting theme that anger is displayed in very uncontrollable measures the whole way through, and Snape is, in this regard, vcertainly not without excuse either.

[wickedwickedboy]

I feel the distinction between Snape and other characters is that Snape was not always provoked into lashing out, meaning it was not always done in anger. Imo, it also arose from his naturally bitter and cruel nature. For example he wasn't angry when he told Hermione her overly large teeth looked just like her normal teeth, or when he belittled Neville in front of the class and Lupin, or when he taunted and humiliated Harry the first day of class in PS/SS. In addition, Snape percieved slights unjustifiably, imo, and lashed out at those times as well. So that is why I feel that Snape had a particular difficulty in this regard, above and beyond that which the other characters displayed. I feel it might have been in part influenced by his background.

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I feel the distinction between Snape and other characters is that Snape was not always provoked into lashing out, meaning it was not always done in anger. Imo, it also arose from his naturally bitter and cruel nature. For example he wasn't angry when he told Hermione her overly large teeth looked just like her normal teeth, or when he belittled Neville in front of the class and Lupin, or when he taunted and humiliated Harry the first day of class in PS/SS. In addition, Snape percieved slights unjustifiably, imo, and lashed out at those times as well. So that is why I feel that Snape had a particular difficulty in this regard, above and beyond that which the other characters displayed. I feel it might have been in part influenced by his background.

His habit of cruelty and belittling people may have sprung from the fact that he was rediculed himself at school because of his appearance and other things (still no excuse).We know he suffered cruel behaviour at home (and arguably at school).I think both things would have effected his behaviour.Unfortunatly people like this usually come to practice these habits too.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by Ifink2much

His habit of cruelty and belittling people may have sprung from the fact that he was rediculed himself at school because of his appearance and other things (still no excuse).We know he suffered cruel behaviour at home (and arguably at school).I think both things would have effected his behaviour. Unfortunatly people like this usually come to practice these habits too.

I agree that his home-life, and his humiliation at the hands of the Marauders contributed to it, but I find it hard to cut him some slack, because a lot of it, he brought down on himself, by choosing to associate with the wrong kind of people, and because of the ideals (or lack thereof) that he followed. Even the dark mark that burns him, he chose to accept willingly.

[ignisia]

The thing is, although he doesn't seem emotional during the instances wwb describes, there's always more underneath the surface.

We can use Neville as an example. Although he seems calm and composed when trying to frighten the poor kid, his speech does give away his emotion. "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" is a statement full of impatience and exasperation.

Even when Snape lowers his voice, a common sign of calm, he is really just getting angrier. We notice it during those times he corners Harry after Harry breaks a rule (or when Snape thinks he has). We also notice that when arguing with Sirius in OotP, Snape's voice grows "quietly waspish" as the argument goes on.

Severus can pretend his feelings don't play a part in most of his actions, but we know better.

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

I agree that his home-life, and his humiliation at the hands of the Marauders contributed to it, but I find it hard to cut him some slack, because a lot of it, he brought down on himself, by choosing to associate with the wrong kind of people, and because of the ideals (or lack thereof) that he followed. Even the dark mark that burns him, he chose to accept willingly.

Oh I'm not overlooking the decisions he made himself.He's accountable for those.But I feel it is unfair to overlook the aspects of his homelife.What he was at home lead to his wanting to be in Slytherin.Being in Slytherin further contributed to the kind of person he was in his teenage years,and then who he was later in life.It's almost like a domino effect.Obviously there comes an age,a point in your life when you have to choose to breakfree of the situation your in ,and to change,this is not easy though.I'm excusing him of everything that happened in his life,I'm just saying it's a difficult situation to judge considering there were many factors against him.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by ignisia

The thing is, although he doesn't seem emotional during the instances wwb describes, there's always more underneath the surface.

Of course there is. But what is Snape's motivation to lash out in those instances? In the first class, Harry has done nothing wrong yet, Snape really had no cause to belittle Neville in front of Lupin, and Hermione had done nothing at all. It appears that Snape does those things simply because he could get away with them.

We can use Neville as an example. Although he seems calm and composed when trying to frighten the poor kid, his speech does give away his emotion. "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" is a statement full of impatience and exasperation.

That I agree with. But that is a different occasion. Neville had done something wrong. I think that WWB was referring specifically to those occasions in which Snape lashes out for no reason at all.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

I agree that his home-life, and his humiliation at the hands of the Marauders contributed to it, but I find it hard to cut him some slack, because a lot of it, he brought down on himself, by choosing to associate with the wrong kind of people, and because of the ideals (or lack thereof) that he followed. Even the dark mark that burns him, he chose to accept willingly.

I agree! He brought everything on himself! But vivek, it is us Snape fans who cuts him some slack! Not Snape himself! If I read the books, Snape never ever gets into a self-pity state, or justifies his lack of home life; never says that Lily left him so he went astray, never says that he was placed in Slytherin and so he made mistakes; or even calling Lily a mudblood was in a fit of anger because he was in a deeply humiliating position; there is only an apology; he was prepared to sleep outside Gryffindor what what he considered a great mistake; but even there he never justifies IMO.

He simply accepts. Everything. And really, that aspect of his character alone I think transforms him to a person who IMO was deeply admirable in my eyes for the way he accepted his mistakes without offering any excuse/justification at any time to anyone and worked unceasingly until he died because he felt in his soul IMO.

He had a bad childhood, had no guidance like Harry or a family like Ron and went on to make wrong choices; he lost the love of his life, because of those choices, he had a hand in the death of the only person who had cared for Severus and whom he loved and instead of blaming the fates, or others or simply breaking down, he makes amends IMO.

And because Snape never cuts any slack for himself, I cut an awful lot of it for him.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Of course there is. But what is Snape's motivation to lash out in those instances? In the first class, Harry has done nothing wrong yet, Snape really had no cause to belittle Neville in front of Lupin, and Hermione had done nothing at all. It appears that Snape does those things simply because he could get away with them.

IMHO, that's not really a realistic reason why anything is done. Take Draco's bullying of Harry and his friends, for instance: That behavior stems from both Draco's upbringing and anger because Harry rejected him on the train in favor of a "blood-traitor".

Even when it seems Snape is just bullying Harry for the heck of it, there is always an underlying reason for it. Sometimes it's Harry's remarkable physical similarity to James. Sometimes Snape thinks Harry is doing something wrong when Harry hasn't. Sometimes Harry has done something wrong. And sometimes Snape is trying to test Harry or is reaching out to him in some strange way.

People do things that are hurtful and wrong all the time, and some even claim that they just did it for no reason. But there is always a reason, because obviously no one is innately cruel or bitter.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by ignisia

Even when it seems Snape is just bullying Harry for the heck of it, there is always an underlying reason for it. Sometimes it's Harry's remarkable physical similarity to James. Sometimes Snape thinks Harry is doing something wrong when Harry hasn't. Sometimes Harry has done something wrong. And sometimes Snape is trying to test Harry or is reaching out to him in some strange way.

But I do think Snape shows exceptional bias too. After all, as Dumbledore said, he saw what he wished to see. I put that entirely down to his previous experiences, but I cut him a lot of slack for it because I genuinely feel that he was forced to look after something that to him, represented the biggest loss he ever suffered.

People do things that are hurtful and wrong all the time, and some even claim that they just did it for no reason. But there is always a reason, because obviously no one is innately cruel or bitter.

And Snape most definitely proved himself in that regard. Sure, he maybe wasn't very nice at times, but neither are normal people. I can be an absolute cow when I so wish; it doesn't mean I lack empathy or pity or a sense of justice. Snape is the same. He was misanthropic, for sure, but so are a lot of people. The guy just didn't wear his heart on his sleeve.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I agree! He brought everything on himself! But vivek, it is us Snape fans who cuts him some slack! Not Snape himself! If I read the books, Snape never ever gets into a self-pity state, or justifies his lack of home life; never says that Lily left him so he went astray, never says that he was placed in Slytherin and so he made mistakes; or even calling Lily a mudblood was in a fit of anger because he was in a deeply humiliating position; there is only an apology; he was prepared to sleep outside Gryffindor what what he considered a great mistake; but even there he never justifies IMO.

He never seeks to justify what he does. So I love this point. It's us who choose to judge him as we see fit, and my view on him will never change.

He simply accepts. Everything. And really, that aspect of his character alone I think transforms him to a person who IMO was deeply admirable in my eyes for the way he accepted his mistakes without offering any excuse/justification at any time to anyone and worked unceasingly until he died because he felt in his soul IMO.

Absolutely, very nicely written! He never offers excuses or tries to redeem himself outwardly. Everything he did, he did in private, secretly, and lived a very lonely life as a result.

He had a bad childhood, had no guidance like Harry or a family like Ron and went on to make wrong choices; he lost the love of his life, because of those choices, he had a hand in the death of the only person who had cared for Severus and whom he loved and instead of blaming the fates, or others or simply breaking down, he makes amends IMO.

He's the best example of an anti hero in the books. He's very conflicted and he really does achieve so much, just not that we can see. For the majority of those books, he was supposedly of moral ambiguity, and yet, he watched Quirrell, kept Harry safe, taught thousands of students, minded Malfoy, took a life and gave his own, in the pursuit of something better, anything at all to redeem himself- not to us, but to himself. It wasn't something for anybody else to see or be privy to, and I love that simple fact. Snape wasn't interesting in pleasing others. He did what he had to do for his own peace of mind, and he spent his life trying to make up for what he had done.

And because Snape never cuts any slack for himself, I cut an awful lot of it for him.