Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ignisia

The thing is, although he doesn't seem emotional during the instances wwb describes, there's always more underneath the surface.

We can use Neville as an example. Although he seems calm and composed when trying to frighten the poor kid, his speech does give away his emotion. "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" is a statement full of impatience and exasperation.

Even when Snape lowers his voice, a common sign of calm, he is really just getting angrier. We notice it during those times he corners Harry after Harry breaks a rule (or when Snape thinks he has). We also notice that when arguing with Sirius in OotP, Snape's voice grows "quietly waspish" as the argument goes on.

Severus can pretend his feelings don't play a part in most of his actions, but we know better.

Well I feel there was always something provoking Snape when he behaved in a cruel or bullying manner - even if it was simply the need to lash out due to his general state of bittnerness and unhappiness. However, I believe he also perceived slights, where those he was interacting had no idea he was perceiving them. That is because, in my judgment, at times they were deeply personal and had nothing to do with the person he was interacting with.

For example, with Hermione's teeth. Apart from the general molestia all professors must deal with, there was nothing in the context of that situation to make a reasonable man feel wapish, based on the kids' behavior. An easily annoyed professor would simply speak abruptly and tell the girl to go to the hospital ward - and a fair professor would then speak to the purpetrator, imo. But Snape felt something; perhaps merely a vindictiveness arising out of the opportunity to belittle someone's appearance as had been done to him all of his life (including by the school children.) Or perhaps something else provoked him. But in any case, he appeared to enjoy himself behaving in that manner and that together with the fact that there was nothing in the situation to directly cause him to feel wapish, imo, leads me to believe that he simply enjoyed behaving in a cruel and bullying manner (hence the terms frequently used to describe his behavior: smirks, snide tone of voice, cruel smiles, sneers, spoken with malice, etc.) In my view, even the reason I gave lends itself to that conclusion. That is, whatever provoked him, I feel he took pleasure in behaving in this fashion, whether there was a perceived slight, a real slight or no slight at all.

[vampiricduck]

I know this is entirely off topic, but what does "waspish" mean?

[wickedwickedboy]

Waspish in some nations. But it means behavior that is irascibly or petulantly spiteful.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by TGW

And because Snape never cuts any slack for himself, I cut an awful lot of it for him.

That's exactly how I feel. If he were to be patting himself on the back throughout the books, he'd be dead to me. He may dish it out, but he certainly knows more than anyone else about the mistakes he made in his life, imo.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

That's exactly how I feel. If he were to be patting himself on the back throughout the books, he'd be dead to me. He may dish it out, but he certainly knows more than anyone else about the mistakes he made in his life, imo.

I respect your view, but I don't feel that distinguishes him in anyway. Doesn't everyone know more about their mistakes they've made in their life than anyone else? Nonetheless, it seems to me that Snape patted himself on the back whenever the opportunity arose to do so.

[wimblemimble]

I respect your view, but I don't feel that distinguishes him in anyway. Doesn't everyone know more about their mistakes they've made in their life than anyone else? Nonetheless, it seems to me that Snape patted himself on the back whenever the opportunity arose to do so.

Could you provide any examples? The only one I can think of would be him telling Harry he is the Half-Blood Prince-- and even that is strechting it quite a bit.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

For example, with Hermione's teeth. Apart from the general molestia all professors must deal with, there was nothing in the context of that situation to make a reasonable man feel wapish, based on the kids' behavior.

The comments about Hermione's teeth came at a time when the dark mark was getting darker everyday IMO.

When Snape made that comment, he was surrounded by Slytherins, most of them DE kids. Snape made that comment to a muggleborn - a mudblood, showing that he was with Voldmeort to those kids, than to Hermione IMO.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I respect your view, but I don't feel that distinguishes him in anyway. Doesn't everyone know more about their mistakes they've made in their life than anyone else? Nonetheless, it seems to me that Snape patted himself on the back whenever the opportunity arose to do so.

Yes they do; but most of them justify their mistakes to themselves first and to others next. That was something I felt Snape never did IMO.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by TGW

Yes they do; but most of them justify their mistakes to themselves first and to others next. That was something I felt Snape never did IMO.

Thanks. That's what I was getting at- I just didn't think an explanation was needed.

[Drusilla]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

The comments about Hermione's teeth came at a time when the dark mark was getting darker everyday IMO.

When Snape made that comment, he was surrounded by Slytherins, most of them DE kids. Snape made that comment to a muggleborn - a mudblood, showing that he was with Voldmeort to those kids, than to Hermione IMO.

Personally, I'd have agreed with your point if he was saying it in front of their parents or Bellatrix- but IMO, to belittle a student, especially a teenage student, over her appearance- and to do it in front of other students, too- was unnecessary and reprehensible of Snape as a teacher.
There's no leaving aside the fact that in later years, Snape did a tremendous lot to help the Trio, but as far as I can see he was never more than neutral (at best) towards anyone who was friendly with Harry. Though of course we never see him in class with anyone except the Gryffindors and Slytherins, so we'll never know if he behaved the same way with ALL his non-Slytherin students or if it was just Gryffindor House whose students (possibly because of Potter-Black associations) he didn't like.

[arithmancer]

The only student from a "neutral" House that expresses an opinion, IIRC, is Ernie McMillan (Hufflepuff) in HBP. He compliments the first DADA class (and expresses no surprise, so I think from his viewpoint, Snape as DADA teacher seemed no different than Snape as Potions teacher).

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

The only student from a "neutral" House that expresses an opinion, IIRC, is Ernie McMillan (Hufflepuff) in HBP. He compliments the first DADA class (and expresses no surprise, so I think from his viewpoint, Snape as DADA teacher seemed no different than Snape as Potions teacher).

Yeah, I was thinking of him too. I figure that Snape was mostly a fairly neutral individual with the students, if a tough teacher, but he obviously did favour the Slytherins (old habits die hard and all that). I also agree with TGW that he made smart comments a lot more when under severe stress.

If it were me, having run from Voldemort with the Dark marks till on my arm, I think I would have been very crabby too..

[wickedwickedboy]

It is canon in CoS that Snape was a sarcastic and cruel professor, disliked by all of the students except those in Slytherin (the Whomping willow). To me his behavior as a professor throughout the series, even as a DADA professor, supported that statement. In my judgment, his particular treatment of Harry was far worse.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

I also agree with TGW that he made smart comments a lot more when under severe stress.

Yes, that could explain a lot. PoA and GoF were the books where Severus' dark side really showed, and in those same books, there were circumstances that would have deeply affected him: PoA had Lupin's return, Sirius breaking free from prison, and Severus' fears that Lupin was a traitor out to kill Harry. And all throughout GoF, he was noticing his Dark Mark growing steadily clearer. He knew he had to return to spying soon, something that would not help his mood any.

[TerrierMom]

* Do you interpret this scene differently after DH?

No, I always just knew from PS/SS that Severus Snape was Dumbledore's man through and through

What does the look in Snape's eyes mean in your opinion?

Merlins Beard! Dumbledore's Drawers! Harry's Horcrux! Your eyes would glitter too, if you were about to do what Snape had to do!


Do you think that the handshake was more than an empty gesture?

Yes, I do. Both men were good and honorable. They may have hated each other, but they were the same type of person, fighting for the right cause and they both knew it. This doesn't mean they weren't still human and flawed and let those facts get the better of them on occasion


1. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

Mostly. I consider Severus Snape more admirable that I think JKR does. Not that she doesn't think he was admirable.

2. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think so, yes. Assuming he wasn't killed by an Auror before seeing the error of his ways. He was ultimately a decent good person who'd had many hard knocks in his life


3. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius.

He loved Dumbledore at least as much as he loved Lily. It was his love and respect for Dumbledore, not Lily that made him do what he did for Dumbledore. I don't think he was unpleasant to Sirius because he loved Lily. He was unpleasant to Sirius because the two had been like oil and water from the moment they met. Sirius and his friends did some pretty nasty stuff to Severus from the very start for no real good reason other than they just didn't like him.

4. Why do you think Snape chose to become a Death Eater?

Poor guy had been dumped on and picked on his entire life. Everyone wants to be liked and to have friends. He just wasn't nearly as good as Harry was in his youth at figuring out who "the wrong sort" were

5. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Snape's actions towards Harry and Neville were regrettable, lamentable and unpleasant. But I think Snape needed to be that way in order to accomplish the tasks that had been set for him.

6. What do you think of Snape's actions after learning who Voldemort had targeted with the prophecy?

I wish he'd given more thought to Lily's child as well as Lily herself. Alas, James had been too thoroughly unpleasant to Severus for too long to expect much from Severus in regards to James

7. What do you think of Snape's actions after Lily's death. How do you think this death has affected his character?

It strengthened it.


8. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Bravery
Honor
Integrity
Fearless

Held grudges
Judgemental
Inflexible


9. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I think he cared about all the students. He was especially inept in being able to express that fact in a positive way

10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

Both.

11. Do you think Snape should have been sorted in Slytherin? Would he have made the same choices if he had been sorted elsewhere?

Slytherin as it was at the time he was sorted into it, no. Sorting hat made a mistake there, I think. Too bad Snape wasn't a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff. Not a Gryffindor, unfortunately I fear he, James and Sirius would have made his life too unpleasant for one another if they'd all been Gryffindors. Slytherin as it was before Tom Riddle I Am Lord VOldemort brought his influence into it and warped it or Slytherin in the days after Harry defeated Voldemort would be a different matter. He would have made different choices if he'd been in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff because he would have been exposed to fewer of the "wrong sort" of potential friends.

12. There are all kinds of bravery in this series, what characteristics of Snape's make him brave? In what sense is he a hero?


Great galloping Gringotts Goblins! All I had to do is read the HP books to know that Severus Snape is a hero!

I picked dog, cat, and bat for Snape's pets. Poor guy could have used some unconditional love from a dog. The cat ignoring him would have taught him humility. The bat, well, he was sort of a great big lovable bat himself, wasn't he? I should also have picked the Jessica option because it amuses me.

[arithmancer]

Great post, TerrierMom, it's hard for me to think of something to add.

Originally Posted by TerrierMom

9. Do you believe Snape came to care about Harry?

I think he cared about all the students. He was especially inept in being able to show that fact in a positive way.

I thought it was very telling, in "The Prince's Tale", in the scene where Snape has just healed DUmbledore's hand and they are talking about future plans. Snape is quite understated, but very qiock to agree when Albus asks if he will protect the students to the best of his ability.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

It is canon in CoS that Snape was a sarcastic and cruel professor, disliked by all of the students except those in Slytherin (the Whomping willow). To me his behavior as a professor throughout the series, even as a DADA professor, supported that statement. In my judgment, his particular treatment of Harry was far worse.

Yeah, but do you not agree that if it was just canon and what has been written, that a lot of characters would be very two dimensional? I figure it's beneficial at least to try to look beyond it into the characters mind. Plus, as Zara said, Ernie does make a fair point. For someone who isn't a Slytherin, his reading seems quite out of place not to have been deliberate.

Originally Posted by ignisia

Yes, that could explain a lot. PoA and GoF were the books where Severus' dark side really showed, and in those same books, there were circumstances that would have deeply affected him: PoA had Lupin's return, Sirius breaking free from prison, and Severus' fears that Lupin was a traitor out to kill Harry. And all throughout GoF, he was noticing his Dark Mark growing steadily clearer. He knew he had to return to spying soon, something that would not help his mood any.

Yep! It's in canon for sure that he got very aggravated at certain times and was more likely to lose the plot when severely agitated, as proven more than once. It's a point that I don't think I'd ever thought of before now, but it makes perfect sense. He is, after all, only human.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Yeah, but do you not agree that if it was just canon and what has been written, that a lot of characters would be very two dimensional? I figure it's beneficial at least to try to look beyond it into the characters mind. Plus, as Zara said, Ernie does make a fair point. For someone who isn't a Slytherin, his reading seems quite out of place not to have been deliberate.

Well I respect your view, but I didn't find Snape's character in canon to be two dimensional at all as written. Certainly we had to wait to see what was going on with him in total until the finish of DH, but taking that into account did not change any of Snape's actions or behavior. Explaining the motivation for his cruelty and bullying of the children doesn't make it go away, imo. I understand him better, and that understanding has made his actions and behavior even more abhorant to me because I feel his underlying motivation and intent were inappropriate, and arose out of bitterness, unhappiness, extreme arrogance and vindictiveness. For me, those things cannot be explained away by background experiences and current undertakings. In my jugdment, everyone had it hard, but everyone didn't behave like Snape. It is that old saying which was quite fitting and ignored by Snape: Life is hard; wear a helmet.

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by WWB

Waspish in some nations. But it means behavior that is irascibly or petulantly spiteful.

*facepalm* I love that, in trying to explain the meaning of some obscure word, you manage to use two even more obscure words.

Explaining the motivation for his cruelty and bullying of the children doesn't make it go away, imo. I understand him better, and that understanding has made his actions and behavior even more abhorant to me because I feel his underlying motivation and intent were inappropriate, and arose out of bitterness, unhappiness, extreme arrogance and vindictiveness.

What? I'm sure you didn't mean this, but the way you phrased this sentence you imply that, had his motivation to 'bully' and 'be sarcastic' been because of a happy childhood or other such 'good' things that his later actions would be deemed good. The fact is, most bitter people have some past experience that makes them bitter. The difference between Severus and those other characters that don't sink to the same bitterness as Severus is their friends. Harry surrounded himself by loving friends thoughout Hogwarts, Severus surrounded himself with future-to-be Death Eaters once Lily left. (After all, who else would be friends with the Slytherins? The books have shown a decidedly negative bias to all things Slytherin, which I would think isolate those students among themselves) The circumstances are very different, there.

Also, could you provide examples of Severus' arrogance (along with those instances of him patting himself on the back, that you've still not shown me)? Everything I read has shown him to rather humble, all circumstances considered.

Honestly, I do find Severus to be a rather demanding character-- and he does, on occation, take things too far. However, unlike you, I can not hold such small character flaws against him to the extreme extent and say he is an 'evil' character because of his bitter demenour.

I might go so far as to compare him to the popular character 'House' from the show of the same name. He is bitter, sarcastic, and goes so far as to insult patients all the time, yet in the end he ends up saving their lives time after time. That he has a terrible personality (and quite frankly, is rather unproffessional) doesn't undermine the fact that he is a terrific doctor. While I don't think a doctor like that would be allowed to go to the extremes he does with his patients, this is just a television show and must be given some amount of artisitic license.

I would never think of Severus as a perfect character. Everyone from the Potterverse has their negative traits-- I don't see why when it comes to Severus we have to keep on the obvious 'he's grumpy, he's sarcastic, he's bitter' and not see all the good he did despite this. :/

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well I respect your view, but I didn't find Snape's character in canon to be two dimensional at all as written. Certainly we had to wait to see what was going on with him in total until the finish of DH, but taking that into account did not change any of Snape's actions or behavior. Explaining the motivation for his cruelty and bullying of the children doesn't make it go away, imo. I understand him better, and that understanding has made his actions and behavior even more abhorant to me because I feel his underlying motivation and intent were inappropriate, and arose out of bitterness, unhappiness, extreme arrogance and vindictiveness. For me, those things cannot be explained away by background experiences and current undertakings. In my jugdment, everyone had it hard, but everyone didn't behave like Snape. It is that old saying which was quite fitting and ignored by Snape: Life is hard; wear a helmet.

Ah, I see what you mean, but it's exactly what I've bolded that I see as two dimensional, in that purely as written regard. If you get me.. I just think the necessity of seeing and understanding his character must come from more than canonical explanation in some cases. We know nothing about his mind, so we choose things from canon that pick up on a particular point of view. I always see where you're coming from, but I think it comes down to individual bias based on the person's own reading. It's why I adore Snape and you have reservations- quite severe ones, no offence meant. We're opposite sides of a warped scale, and that's why this thread is on version 9!

Regarding everyone having it hard, that's true, but I think a double agent caught between two worlds has a particularly nasty job of compartmentalizing with huge proficiency and also having a capacity to retain interactions as often as possible. Some big words there.. Whew!

As for Life is hard, Wear a Helmet...

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Ah, I see what you mean, but it's exactly what I've bolded that I see as two dimensional, in that purely as written regard. If you get me.. I just think the necessity of seeing and understanding his character must come from more than canonical explanation in some cases. We know nothing about his mind, so we choose things from canon that pick up on a particular point of view. I always see where you're coming from, but I think it comes down to individual bias based on the person's own reading. It's why I adore Snape and you have reservations- quite severe ones, no offence meant. We're opposite sides of a warped scale, and that's why this thread is on version 9!

It is all right, you can be plain; I have no severe reservations. I detest Snape's character (although I didn't used to prior to doing all of this careful analysis.) I am not offended by the truth, so it is fine to say. To be honest, I don't often venture beyond the canon to try to explain Snape for myself; however, I have discussed other's ideas in that regard and I respect their views, but consider it all speculative in nature.

Regarding everyone having it hard, that's true, but I think a double agent caught between two worlds has a particularly nasty job of compartmentalizing with huge proficiency and also having a capacity to retain interactions as often as possible. Some big words there.. Whew!

Well I respect your view, but again, I refuse to place Snape on a pedestal of mourning. Kingsley was also acting as a spy, a double agent in that he had to lie, work covertly and take a lot of personal hits due to his position. Recall his being hit by the same spell as the others trying to arrest Dumbledore, to the elder wizard's regret. Recall his meeting with Dumbledore in secret on Order business when that society as well as Dumbledore were outlawed. Recall his duplicity on the job in heading the hunt for Sirius, a fellow Order member who he protected instead - but he had to make it look good.

The distinction to me is that Kingsley was not an embittered, vindictive man at heart. So to me, it was Snape's inherent nature which made his position tougher than it already was (because I am not saying it would be easy; like Kingsleys, it would be tough.) All the compartmentalizing he did was doubled, imo, as much of his problem lay in personal matters having nothing to do with his work as a spy, imo. So I see no reason to cop Snape a break in this regard at all.

I do understand that some readers are simply more sympathetic and willing to forgive even extremely atrocious behavior of a fictional character. But I don't fall into that category of persons. My all time hero, Darth Vader is beloved by me precisely because he was a horrible, evil, disgusting villain and he never attempted to say otherwise. Darth's motto is "Lately I only watch those die I can't reach to kill before my troopers do, otherwise I kill them myself and watch them die" . So understand that I can appreciate a great villain; but only in light of not trying to justify or excuse and thus forgive their horrible behavior. Snape's character begs for that forgiveness, imo, and I am thoroughly unwilling to give it because I don't feel he did anything at all that places him in a position to deserve it.