Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[Headless_Nick]

Originally Posted by 9and3quarters

I understand why his mind jumped there -- but honestly is it excusable?

Threatening to use veritaserum? Actually, that's a remarkably fair way to do things. Snape has a good reason to suspect that Harry has been up to stuff he shouldn't be - possibly dangerous and/or hurtful things. They certainly hurt Snape. If the veritaserum was used on Harry and Harry hadn't done anything wrong, then he had nothing to fear and Snape would know that Harry was innocent. If Harry had been stealing from Snape, which he had in an indirect way (well, in the fourth book, anyway), then is there any reason not to punish Harry? Stealing from Snape was wrong and dangerous, especially considering the circumstances (strictly talking about the fourth book right now) and instead of taking matters into their own hands, stealing, and risking their own heads, perhaps the trio should have gotten help from adults. Wouldn't that have been the responsible thing to do?

[ignisia]

IMO, there's more to the scene 9and3quarters posted than appears on the surface. That's pretty much the case for every Snape scene.

I agree with those that say that simple rule-breaking does not warrant the sort of talk Snape used. However, I think that while Harry's imagined rule-breaking formed a part of Snape's motivation here, it is not the only factor to consider.

Once again, we must look at what Snape is saying, and not how harsh his words are.
Snape is picking at Harry's fame. He alludes to the article (which he just caught the trio reading during class) and says that Harry's fame does not matter and that despite Moody having joined Harry's "little fan club", Snape "will not tolerate [Harry's] behavior".

Once again we are faced with evidence of that assumption that Severus has built up for himself all these years that Harry is a carbon copy of his arrogant father.
Snape sees Harry reading the magazine during class and on top of that, he has what seems to be pretty good evidence that the boy has flouted the rules by breaking into his stores. Add into the mix his belief that Harry is like James and it paints an unflattering portrait of a boy so arrogant and pleased with his own fame that he thinks himself above the rules. This is the image of Harry Severus has constructed, and this is what he's reacting to.
It does not justify his acting on assumptions, but on the other hand, were those assumptions correct, his behavior would not be considered as bad.


As for the dementors-
We do not see how Snape reacted to Harry's disagreement, but I would have loved to see that. I think it would say a lot about Snape.

Another point I want to make is that I like how Harry actually attempts to convey his opinion to Snape through his essay. He could easily have thought that Snape wouldn't care what he thought one way or another and just wrote whatever he thought would be wanted. But instead he puts more effort and heart into his work, even when the teacher in question is Snape.
I'd have to think more about that, but doesn't it seem to say something positive about their relationship?

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

Actually, we see later that Severus does not take Sirius to the dementors--

In my view, Snape didn't take Sirius and Lupin to the dementors because he got palmed by the trio. Later, the dementors had returned to their posts, as Snape told the Minister. Apparently he had no means of alerting them to Sirius' presence because it wasn't like he'd changed his mind that Sirius should be kissed (as we found out the next day).

he actually puts him on a stretcher (contrasted with Sirius, who allowed Severus' head to constantly hit the top of the cave wall)

Several times. I think Sirius saw it as trying to knock sense into Snape's head, metaphorically - because he didn't try to kill Snape or anything. But Sirius' wrong does not make Snape's wrong any better, it just makes them both wrong, imo.

and brings him to the authoritize in Hogwarts. Sirius was passed out at the time. Quite frankly, Severus had free range to do anything he wanted with him, including 'accidentaly' leaving him in a dementor-heavy area. But he didn't-- and I think that is very telling.

Snape was unconscious when Sirius carried him also - at which point he could have just killed Snape. So in that light, the actions of both were telling. I don't know what you mean by Snape leaving Sirius in a dementor heavy area. They had all returned to their posts. Snape did still wish Sirius kissed as we saw by his words and behavior the next day. Thus, I feel it most reasonable to assume he didn't attempt to have it done later because there was no means of achieving it.

I don't know why you think Severus was going to take Sirius to the dementors on his own, or why you think he would underestimate them. He knew that even Albus had trouble keeping them under control (when they came onto the Quidditch field) and I seriously don't think we have anything in canon to assume that he thought he could control them himself, or that he was really going to try to take Sirius to the dementors on his own-- that is just speculation on very loose terms.

Um...I don't understand what you mean. Snape stated that is what he was going to do in canon. He bound Lupin and was going to 'drag' the werewolf and take them both to be kissed by the dementors. He didn't say he was taking them to the authorities, but to the dementors. He claimed he wanted personal revenge and he was glad it was he who had found Black. (POA) Black even tried to convince Snape to take them to the castle instead, saying that he'd come quietly if that were allowed. If all Snape was going to do was take them to the castle, then the trio would not have attacked him, because they knew Dumbledore would become involved prior to the Dementors. Snape was not being fair, he refused to listen to reason and even though the trio wasn't convinced at that point, they understood it was only fair to let the two unarmed men have their say.

Originally Posted by indygnisia

Snape sees Harry reading the magazine during class and on top of that, he has what seems to be pretty good evidence that the boy has flouted the rules by breaking into his stores. Add into the mix his belief that Harry is like James and it paints an unflattering portrait of a boy so arrogant and pleased with his own fame that he thinks himself above the rules. This is the image of Harry Severus has constructed, and this is what he's reacting to. It does not justify his acting on assumptions, but on the other hand, were those assumptions correct, his behavior would not be considered as bad.

I would respectfully disagree for two reasons. First, looking back at what Snape actually said, there was absolutely no call for him to say those particular words 'to me you are just a nasty little boy' - when is it ever correct for a professor to speak like that to a student? Especially since Snape knew good and well that the 'nasty little boy' had dealt with Voldemort through Quirrell, and later again through the Diary as well as the Balisk. He'd killed a troll that was threatening Hermione and so he knew good and well that Harry's 'rule breaking' had merit. Snape chose to believe Harry had snuck his own name into the hat and stolen the G. weed, which was simply wrong and based on Snape's general misconstruction of Harry's character, imo.

That leads to the second consideration. Even the basis for Snape's transference of ill will on Harry due to his father was highly flawed. Snape didn't know James Potter any better than Harry Potter, imo. He knew him as a classmate (like Harry as a student) and he knew him from tussling with him (as he knew Harry from their tussling). He watched James play Quidditch, hang with his friends, do pranks and make arrogant and impertinent statements from time to time - but he watched Harry play Quidditch, hang with his friends, engage in hex wars with Draco and enjoy pranking of Fred and George (plus get into a bit of his own) as well as make arrogant and impertient statements from time to time (although likely fewer than his dad). Yet Snape reached the same conclusion about both of them, from his deeply jaded viewpoint while watching them both. He saw James sneak out at night and saw Harry do the same - but he didn't know why - he didn't understand James was running off at times to keep Lupin company or become an animagus - he didn't know Harry was seeking to stop Snape from getting ahold of the P. Stone or investigating the CoS. He didn't ask and he simply assumed that they were both up to no good at all times.

So for those two reasons, I see no justification for Snape's words and I found him to be behaving in a jealous, inappropriate and altogether despicable manner in GoF when he said that to Harry.

[wimblemimble]

You are kidding, right? If so, I do see the humor. . But if not, I guess I'd have to remind you that Snape didn't take Sirius and Lupin to the dementors because he got palmed by the trio. Later, the dementors had returned to their posts, as Snape told the Minister. Apparently he had no means of alerting them to Sirius' presence because it wasn't like he'd changed his mind that Sirius should be kissed (as we found out the next day).

But after that, when Harry and Sirius were passed out, Severus did not take them to the dementors, or call the dementors over-- he turned Sirius over to the authorities.

Several times. I think Sirius saw it as trying to knock sense into Snape's head - because he didn't try to kill Snape or anything. But Sirius' wrong does not make Snape's wrong any better, it just makes them both wrong.

I didn't mean to imply that Sirius was trying to kill him (and what a stupid way to go about it, anyway) but rather just meant to contrast the way the two men reacted to the situation. Sirius was very childish, imho.

Snape was unconscious when Sirius carried him also - at which point he could have just killed Snape. So in that light, the actions of both were telling. I don't know what you mean by Snape leaving Sirius in a dementor heavy area. They had all returned to their posts. Snape did still wish Sirius kissed as we saw by his words and behavior the next day. Thus, I feel it most reasonable to assume he didn't attempt to have it done later because there was no means of achieving it.

Of course he watned him kissed! I never denied that-- at this point in time Severus still believes that Sirius betrayed the Order, James, and Lily-- but your point was that Severus was going to risk his life, and the lives of the trio to do this. My point is that Severus had the perfect opportunity to do so, but did not take it. (What prevented him from finding the dementors at their posts, for example) I don't think he would have taken it even if he hadn't been originally knocked out.

Um...I don't understand what you mean. Snape stated that is what he was going to do in canon. He bound Lupin and was going to 'drag' the werewolf and take them both to be kissed by the dementors. He didn't say he was taking them to the authorities, but to the dementors. He claimed he wanted personal revenge and he was glad it was he who had found Black. (POA) Black even tried to convince Snape to take them to the castle instead, saying that he'd come quietly if that were allowed. If all Snape was going to do was take them to the castle, then the trio would not have attacked him, because they knew Dumbledore would become involved prior to the Dementors. Snape was not being fair, he refused to listen to reason and even though the trio wasn't convinced at that point, they understood it was only fair to let the two unarmed men have their say.

I get the feeling we are arguing two different points here. I never denied that Severus wanted Sirius kissed (as I mentioned above) my only issue is assuming that Severus was going to do this all himself. I mean, if he really was, why not do so after everyone had been knocked out? No one would have known it was him-- and even if they did, no one would (likely) get upset at him. To the wizarding public, Sirius was still a mass-murderer.

In the Shrieking Shack he wasn't thinking clearly (the same could be said of Sirius-- but Lupin was able to settle him down because they are friends. Severus didn't trust any of the people in the Shack (Lupin's presence there 'confirmed' his suspicion that Lupin was helping Sirius Black) so why would (or should) he listen to them?

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

I get the feeling we are arguing two different points here. I never denied that Severus wanted Sirius kissed (as I mentioned above) my only issue is assuming that Severus was going to do this all himself. I mean, if he really was, why not do so after everyone had been knocked out? No one would have known it was him-- and even if they did, no one would (likely) get upset at him. To the wizarding public, Sirius was still a mass-murderer.

If he really wasn't, why did everyone in the room believe he was going to? And when they expressed their displeasure at his doing so, why didn't he explain he was merely taking them all up to the castle where they could present their case to Dumbledore?

In the Shrieking Shack he wasn't thinking clearly (the same could be said of Sirius-- but Lupin was able to settle him down because they are friends. Severus didn't trust any of the people in the Shack (Lupin's presence there 'confirmed' his suspicion that Lupin was helping Sirius Black) so why would (or should) he listen to them?

Why indeed. Best just to kill Black and Lupin without hearing what they have to say?

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

If he really wasn't, why did everyone in the room believe he was going to? And when they expressed their displeasure at his doing so, why didn't he explain he was merely taking them all up to the castle where they could present their case to Dumbledore?

I agree with wimble, but even if Snape wanted to kiss Sirius, he would not have been in the wrong, because the Ministry had given orders for Sirius to be kissed on sight IMO.

Why indeed. Best just to kill Black and Lupin without hearing what they have to say?

Black was a murderer according to the WW. For 13 years he was in Azkaban; he had admitted his guilt all those years ago, when he had brokenly cried, demented, that he had killed James and Lily. He was guilty as far as the WW was concerned. And now he had broken out of Azkaban IMO.

Lupin was aiding him, Snape would have felt and the 3 children were in danger, Confunded or having the Imperius on them in Snape's mind, when he saw them defend Black IMO.

And he wanted both kissed. With Lupin, Snape was indeed correct, because Lupin was aiding Black, in one way, by not revealing to Dumbledore about Black's animagus form, which had Black come for Harry when he broke into the Gryffindor dorm, would have killed him and escaped IMO.

And even after that incident Lupin did not tell Dumbeldore about the animagus form IMO.

While Snape did not know about the animagus form, seeing Lupin there, talking to Black, I think would have made Snape suspicious, not to mention that Harry and the other 2 were supporting Black. He would have thought they were Confunded and lumped Black and Lupin together IMO.

There was no need to hear, because Black had admitted to his crime, all those years ago IMO. (Of course he was crying out of guilt, but then, no one knew that).

[wimblemimble]

If he really wasn't, why did everyone in the room believe he was going to? And when they expressed their displeasure at his doing so, why didn't he explain he was merely taking them all up to the castle where they could present their case to Dumbledore?

Should Severus be penalized for Harry's assumptions? My thinking is that he wanted to gloat over Sirius-- he may not have gotten to win over the Werewolf prank, but he is certainly going to win here! (or, so it would seem) He isn't about the give in to Sirius' request to go to the castle-- at least not straightaway, at least as I see it.

Why indeed. Best just to kill Black and Lupin without hearing what they have to say?

Was he planning on killing Lupin, too? I guess that would make sense-- if he thought Lupin was in on it-- but I've not read that book in a while and can't quite remember what happened.

But, really, he was probably anticipating a list of excuses or reasons-- I doubt he thought they actually had concrete proof of Sirius' innocence. Besides, why let them speak when you are finally in control of the situation, something he's wanted since he was a student at Hogwarts.

I realize that it still isn't the most logical reaction, but neither was Sirius' going out to attack Peter after he found out about the betrayal, or his laughing maniacally after he 'blew himself up'.

EDIT: The_Green_Woods: That is a really good point about Sirius' confession. Adding that to everything else, and I think it is more obvious why Severus didn't want to hear what they had to say.

[ignisia]

Was he planning on killing Lupin, too? I guess that would make sense-- if he thought Lupin was in on it-- but I've not read that book in a while and can't quite remember what happened.

He suggested that the dementors might have a kiss for Lupin too when he brought everyone outside of the shack.

But, really, he was probably anticipating a list of excuses or reasons-- I doubt he thought they actually had concrete proof of Sirius' innocence. Besides, why let them speak when you are finally in control of the situation, something he's wanted since he was a student at Hogwarts.

Plus, Sirius is talking about a rat and Pettigrew being alive. Several eyewitnesses reported that Pettigrew was dead, and a reference to a rat seems way too weird to be plausible, especially to a man who is already in an emotional frenzy.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

But, really, he was probably anticipating a list of excuses or reasons-- I doubt he thought they actually had concrete proof of Sirius' innocence. Besides, why let them speak when you are finally in control of the situation, something he's wanted since he was a student at Hogwarts.

We are not talking about a trip to Hogsmead; we are discussing Snape taking the decision regarding life and (good as) death into his own hands. It is not good, but not fatal, if you deny someone the right to speak over a trifling issue like a school trip. But when you are going to have someone (good as) executed, yes, they deserve the right to speak. Even the most villainous of men have allowed their opponents a final last word. The justification you provided only makes the situation worse, imo. He was behaving in a villainous manner because he wanted control? Because he anticipated excuses and reasons when imo, he is famous for his bad judgment and making terrible assumptions - and he knows this about himself? I don't see how that serves to justify his behavior at all. I do agree it explains his illogical reasoning, but it doesn't make his behaivor any less despicable in my view; only more so.

As to his poor judgment - for example - he considered Harry a fame seeker with nothing to show for it; later his opinion didn't change by the end of POA where he repeated that assertion. And yet, I've already recounted the things that Harry had done to that date. Snape seriously didn't see anything special about Harry at that point? A blind man with hearing problems could have told him that the kid was living up to any fame Snape felt he had been dubbed with, imo. Snape's miscontruction of other's characters was so outstanding, I can hardly believe he didn't realize it. Thus, in my view, he knew that the judgments he was making were poor, but he stubbornly asserted them anyway.

I realize that it still isn't the most logical reaction, but neither was Sirius' going out to attack Peter after he found out about the betrayal, or his laughing maniacally after he 'blew himself up'.

I respect your view, but how does that help Snape's case exactly? All five people were behaving in a logical fashion in trying to reason with Snape. However, Snape was being completely unreasonable, which is why the trio palmed him, imo. They realized that he was being unfair and any judgment he was making was totally poor in nature. Snape had to be stopped because he was not only in the wrong, he was threatening to take the lives of others in his hands based on their being enemies as school children and his misconceptions about their current undertakings. It would have cost Snape nothing to listen; he was the person armed with a wand and for a few moments, the person with all of the control in the situation. Luckily, Snape's judgment of the children's characters was equally poor and they ensured he didn't put two possibly innocent men to their deaths. Ironically, because Snape was entirely guilty of having assisted in killing the Potters, he was truly the only blameworthy one among them. If anyone deserved kissed for their behavior, it was Snape - for he had heard enough to know that there was mitigation for Sirius and Lupin, he simply refused to acknowledge it might be true and would not listen. And he wasn't just ignoring Sirius and Lupin, but Hermione, Ron and Harry as well.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I agree with wimble, but even if Snape wanted to kiss Sirius...

...that cracked me up! I knew what you meant though and I have answered above as the sentiments were similar to Wimble's.

[wimblemimble]

we are discussing Snape taking the decision regarding life and (good as) death into his own hands. It is not good, but not fatal, if you deny someone the right to speak over a trifling issue like a school trip. But when you are going to have someone (good as) executed, yes, they deserve the right to speak. Even the most villainous of men have allowed their opponents a final last word. The justification you provided only makes the situation worse, imo. He was behaving in a villainous manner because he wanted control?

I don't think control was ever a main factor in Severus' behavior-- it may have been a factor, but it was not a main one-- because we must remember that Sirius is thought of as the murderer of Lily, which is something that Severus would not be able to abide by.

As for giving Sirius a chance to speak-- we know that Sirius confessed to the crimes when he was originally arrested. Should Severus have given him another chance? Yes, I believe he should have, but at the same time, in the state of mind Severus was in at the time (he had just finally caught who he thought betrayed Lily) I don't think he was being logical or orderly about anything. Heck, he isn't Spock!

Ironically, because Snape was entirely guilty of having assisted in killing the Potters, he was truly the only blameworthy one among them. If anyone deserved kissed for their behavior, it was Snape - for he had heard enough to know that there was mitigation for Sirius and Lupin, he simply refused to acknowledge it might be true and would not listen. And he wasn't just ignoring Sirius and Lupin, but Hermione, Ron and Harry as well.

I'm not sure what you mean about him knowing the 'mitigation' between Sirius and Lupin, but I like what you brought up Severus' part to play in the death of Lily!

And I think this may be part of the reason that Severus was so estatic that it was he who caught Sirius. Because, in Severus' mind, it was Sirius who undid all the work that he (Severus) had done to ensure Lily's safety. And, even in a small way, he could be the one to avenge Lily's death.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

I don't think control was ever a main factor in Severus' behavior-- it may have been a factor, but it was not a main one-- because we must remember that Sirius is thought of as the murderer of Lily, which is something that Severus would not be able to abide by.

I respect your view; but then that leaves a mystery as to why he was able to abide Peter - living with him to boot. I think there was more to it than that; I feel that Snape was more upset by the childhood animosity angle than anything to do with Lily's death. That is because as we noted, Snape too had burdens to bear in that regard.

As for giving Sirius a chance to speak-- we know that Sirius confessed to the crimes when he was originally arrested. Should Severus have given him another chance? Yes, I believe he should have, but at the same time, in the state of mind Severus was in at the time (he had just finally caught who he thought betrayed Lily) I don't think he was being logical or orderly about anything. Heck, he isn't Spock!

I respect your opinion, however, Sirius and Lupin were under the same duress. They too had just caught the person who they felt had killed both of their beloved friends and left Harry an Orphan. That is what they were trying to tell Snape. In my view, they could have gone off their rockers just as easily under the stress of the situation; but all things taken into consideration, Snape was the only one out of control, imo. Nobody was Spock, I agree . However, in my opinion, there was much more to it than Snape merely wanting to avenge Lily. I feel he was still very upset by the school yard animosity between he, Lupin and Black.

I'm not sure what you mean about him knowing the 'mitigation' between Sirius and Lupin, but I like what you brought up Severus' part to play in the death of Lily!

And I think this may be part of the reason that Severus was so estatic that it was he who caught Sirius. Because, in Severus' mind, it was Sirius who undid all the work that he (Severus) had done to ensure Lily's safety. And, even in a small way, he could be the one to avenge Lily's death.

I don't know if I feel Snape was thinking along those lines. Primarily because it was Voldemort and Dumbledore who had betrayed Snape in the end regarding Lily's safety. Imagine if Peter had never told Voldemort the truth - do you think he would have stopped hunting Harry? I don't. I feel he would have found a way to get to him no matter what because he feared the prophecy. I also feel that Snape had some pleasure in the thought that Sirius had betrayed his presumably best friend/brother. He would of course have some anger at Sirius for playing a role in it; but I think his own role was so much more terrible in its consequences, that even Snape couldn't try to lay it all off on Sirius. I mean, if Voldemort had never gotten the prophecy, there would have been no targeting Harry and Sirius (Peter) would be irrelevant. In my view, it was not Sirius that Snape wished to have vengeance on for Lily's death, but rather Voldemort. I think it was mainly childhood animosity driving Snape in the shack; that is supported by the fact that he finally popped out of hiding when they spoke of the werewolf prank - not before when they spoke of how dear James was to them (and all about the animagus stuff) - which would be blasphemy if they'd betrayed him and Lily - and I would think he'd pop out then in a furious rage, since the issue would have dealt more with the actual betrayal, imo.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

...that cracked me up! I knew what you meant though and I have answered above as the sentiments were similar to Wimble's.

I meant even if Snape wanted to get Sirius kissed by the dementors...!

----------------

In the Shack I think Snape's actions were not wrong at all. Sirius was a murderer who had admitted his crimes, including that of killing Peter and the muggles.

I think Snape may have felt that he did not need to hear once again and believe the words of whom he thought of and knew as did the WW; a murderer IMO. After 13 years Sirius was suddenly innocent? Then why did he not go to Dumbeldore? Would be the questions on Snape's mind, for which he would have had no answers, and would not belive any answer Sirius gave, because of the near attack in the Gryffindor dorm IMO.

But when you are going to have someone (good as) executed, yes, they deserve the right to speak.

Not when they have already admitted to their guilt like Sirius did all those years ago. Added to that like Dumbledore said, Sirius's actions were not correct; when he had, instead of meeting with Dumbeldore and explaning about Peter and what had happened all those years ago, tried to get into the Gryffindor dorms with a knife, slashing the Fat Lady, and then in the shack, luring Harry, Hermione and an obviously injured Ron along with Lupin, who seemed to be on Sirius's side, which is how it would have looked to Snape IMO.

All five people were behaving in a logical fashion in trying to reason with Snape. However, Snape was being completely unreasonable, which is why the trio palmed him, imo.

But who were those 5 people?

One murderer, one accomplice (Lupin, who Snape suspected all along) and three kids who could be Confunded, because they were talking for the murderer. In fact I think Snape thought they were, for he screams to Hermione or is it Harry that he should be thanking Snape on bended knees for saving them IMO.

How will Snape in such a senario want to listen to Sirius, when the lives of 3 kids and Harry among them was in danger according to him. I really don't think he was wrong at all.

The main point IMO is that there was no need for Snape to listen to Sirius's words, because his case was not a trial that went wrong, or because there was a mystery or suspicion; Sirius was in Azkaban, because he said he was guilty of the crimes he was accused of. Now after a whole lot of them in Azkaban heard that Sirius say "he was at Hogwarts" all athe time and then one day Sirius escapes and a while later also attacks the Fat lady and is seen standing over Ron's bed with a knife, I think it would not have even crossed Snape's mind that Sirius could be innocent. There was nothing at that time to show that IMO.

[wimblemimble]

I respect your view; but then that leaves a mystery as to why he was able to abide Peter - living with him to boot. I think there was more to it than that; I feel that Snape was more upset by the childhood animosity angle than anything to do with Lily's death. That is because as we noted, Snape too had burdens to bear in that regard.

I don't see why Severus would not be able to abide, if he had too. (And he did, under Voldemorts orders) It isn't as if he enjoyed living with Peter.

Besides, even Harry wanted to murder Sirius himself, yet when he finally had the opportunity (only, this time it was Peter) he decided it would be best not too, but to take him to the castle. Harry's original action was due to intense emotions, just as Severus' were. We know that, when he needs too, Severus is capable of shoving his emotions away. Perhaps not in the heat of the moment, but I'm sure he had some time to think of Peter living with him.

They too had just caught the person who they felt had killed both of their beloved friends and left Harry an Orphan. That is what they were trying to tell Snape. In my view, they could have gone off their rockers just as easily under the stress of the situation; but all things taken into consideration, Snape was the only one out of control, imo. Nobody was Spock, I agree . However, in my opinion, there was much more to it than Snape merely wanting to avenge Lily. I feel he was still very upset by the school yard animosity between he, Lupin and Black.

No, I agree that his personal feelings for Sirius played a part-- but I don't think it diminishes that much of his anger was over Lily.

I don't know if I feel Snape was thinking along those lines. Primarily because it was Voldemort and Dumbledore who had betrayed Snape in the end regarding Lily's safety. Imagine if Peter had never told Voldemort the truth - do you think he would have stopped hunting Harry? I don't. I feel he would have found a way to get to him no matter what because he feared the prophecy. I also feel that Snape had some pleasure in the thought that Sirius had betrayed his presumably best friend/brother. He would of course have some anger at Sirius for playing a role in it; but I think his own role was so much more terrible in its consequences, that even Snape couldn't try to lay it all off on Sirius. I mean, if Voldemort had never gotten the prophecy, there would have been no targeting Harry and Sirius (Peter) would be irrelevant.

By that logic we should lay the most blame on Merope and Tom Riddle Senior-- if they never had their child, never abanonded him in the orphanage, everything would be irrelevant. Just because someone starts something doesn't automatically mean they have the most blame. Severus started Voldemort on his quest, but Peter gave him the means to finish it.

I also feel that Snape had some pleasure in the thought that Sirius had betrayed his presumably best friend/brother.

I'm sure he did! The man who took so much pleasure in being a gryffindor, then turns around and betrays his best friend? The irony of that situation would be far too much to resist.

that is supported by the fact that he finally popped out of hiding when they spoke of the werewolf prank - not before when they spoke of how dear James was to them (and all about the animagus stuff) - which would be blasphemy if they'd betrayed him and Lily - and I would think he'd pop out then in a furious rage, since the issue would have dealt more with the actual betrayal, imo.

At the risk of creating another revolving argument, we don't and can't know how long Severus was actually standing at that door-- so your point is moot.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

I don't see why Severus would not be able to abide, if he had too. (And he did, under Voldemorts orders) It isn't as if he enjoyed living with Peter.

Besides, even Harry wanted to murder Sirius himself, yet when he finally had the opportunity (only, this time it was Peter) he decided it would be best not too, but to take him to the castle. Harry's original action was due to intense emotions, just as Severus' were. We know that, when he needs too, Severus is capable of shoving his emotions away. Perhaps not in the heat of the moment, but I'm sure he had some time to think of Peter living with him.

I agree per se, but it is highly indicative to me that "Lily's betrayer" was not always something that would drive Snape to lose control.

By that logic we should lay the most blame on Merope and Tom Riddle Senior-- if they never had their child, never abanonded him in the orphanage, everything would be irrelevant. Just because someone starts something doesn't automatically mean they have the most blame. Severus started Voldemort on his quest, but Peter gave him the means to finish it.

Oh no, you misunderstood me. Snape was in no way more blameworthy than Voldemort and Peter. In fact, since he actually undertook an action to undo at least a portion of the murderous deed they had planned, his blameworthiness is mitigated to some degree (qualified by his undertaking the action only with respect to Lily, imo.)

What I meant to say was that in the Shack on that evening, from a reader's point of view in hindsight after HBP, Snape was the only person in that room who had any blame with respect to the Potter's death (with the exception of Peter, who was not interacting with them when Snape was there).

I'm sure he did! The man who took so much pleasure in being a gryffindor, then turns around and betrays his best friend? The irony of that situation would be far too much to resist.

Indeed, that is why I feel it was a tremendous let down for Snape to discover he was wrong and part of the reason he didn't wish to listen to Sirius and Remus. He wanted them to have betrayed James. It seemed to me that Peter having been the betrayer had much less impact on Snape; perhaps becaue he'd known all along or if that was not intended by the author, maybe Snape felt he could relate more to Peter than the others. They were commonly vulnerable and insecure according to JKR, so maybe there was a kinship of sorts between them on that front. They had both fallen under Voldemort's lure and both participated in the furtherance of the prophecy.

But that brings up another point. Of all of the Death Eaters, Peter would have likely been the easiest to convince to rejoin the good side, imo. He knew what was right and he realized he'd taken a horrible tumble based on my impression of canon. I wonder why Snape (and Dumbledore) didn't try to bring him back into the fold while he was staying with Snape. They could have easily kidnapped him and brought him in to talk sense into his head over what he was doing and what he'd become.

At the risk of creating another revolving argument, we don't and can't know how long Severus was actually standing at that door-- so your point is moot.

Oh I agree, we don't know if he was standing there outside of the door and actually overheard nearly the entire conversation - thus knew what Lupin and Sirius planned to tell him. However, JKR made a point of signaling when he actually entered the room, so we know he heard everything from that point forward (POA Servant of Lord Voldemort.) That is what makes my point valid. He definitely overheard the portion about the Animagi forms, the night time adventures as well as the details of the werewolf prank. That is when he found out that he'd misconstrued James' character in as far as 'getting cold feet for a plan he'd been in on'. And that confirmed that Dumbledore wasn't a liar also (POA, ibid). But you know, James was undoing the wrong of another. Under the worst construction, he was saving Sirius and Remus - that is a good motivation anyway you look at it, imo.

That is the whole point. It should have been Sirius that risked his life to stop Snape from making the huge mistake of venturing into the tunnel, not James. That he moved to do so, was in action: risking his life to pull Snape from danger, mortal or otherwise. In consequence: save Snape from possible death or harm and save Sirius and Remus from possible negative outcomes. Where I ask is the bad in that in as far as James is concerned? From Snape's initial view, it is possible to construct something slightly negative, but after he found out the truth, he never brought the matter up again because he knew he had no leg to stand on, imo. That is why I don't understand dwelling on the point now that we know the entire story. James, whatever he was thinking, did a wonderful act and Snape should have been grateful; I don't understand seeing it any other way once the truth was known. This is totally the opposite of what Snape did once he discovered that his own action had placed James in mortal danger, imo. Snape tried to save Lily and did nothing motivated by the fact that James would die. That right there shows you the very huge distinction between those two individuals at that time, imo. In my judgment, that is why Snape placed such a poor construction on James' actions - becuase it is exactly the way he would have behaved and indeed did behave when the opportunity arose. It was not important to save James even though it would cost the woman he loved infinite pain. So Snape's behavior was overall worse than the construction he'd placed on James' behavior in my judgment.

[TerrierMom]

When I was reading the later books in the Harry Potter series I got to wondering about how Snape might have treated Harry differently if Harry had looked exactly like Lily, rather than like James. JKR stated in more than 1 book how much Harry looked like James. Except for his eyes. He had his mother's green eyes. It was those eyes,Lily's eyes, that made Snape loyal to Dumbledore and ultimately Harry. But Snape, despite having Harry's best interests at heart in the end, was thoroughly despicable to him most of the time. Harry looked like James, and he was "Potter's Son", and Snape wasn't completely able to move past his detest for James and see Harry as anything but another James.
What if, however, Harry had looked exactly like his mother Lily? What if Harry had red hair and did not wear glasses to go along with Lily's green eyes? Would Snape have been kinder and friendlier to him? Or at least not so thoroughly nasty and unpleasant to Harry? Or would Harry still have been "Potter's Son" to Snape? If Snape had been kinder to a red haired, glasses free Harry, how might the whole story have changed?

Personally I think that Snape, being deep down, one of the good guys, would not have been so dreadful to Harry if he'd looked like Lily. I'm not sure Snape would have been a father figure to him, and maybe not even as kind to Harry as other grown men in his life were. More like the way Dudley was towards Harry at start of DH, maybe. Although it would have been nice if Snape had been a Sirius or Lupin figure to Harry from his first day at Hogwarts. For me, I think the story ultimately would have ended the same, with Voldemort vanquished. Harry simply would have had a more pleasant experience at Hogwarts when dealing with Snape. I think Harry probably would have been better at Occlumency. But then part of me wonders whether Snape needed to be harsh with Harry in order to give Harry the strength to do what he needed to do---defeat Voldemort.

[ignisia]

Well, no matter the circumstances, Snape simply could not be too close to Harry. Otherwise, Voldemort would just say: "So, the boy trusts you? Cool. Bring him to me."

But as for Severus' personal opinion, I think Harry's resemblance to James reinforced the prejudice, but did not cause it. What caused it, IMO, was Severus' fear of his own feelings. He's quite consistently shown that he prefers to show anger rather than any softer feeling, as a defence mechanism. I think this is at work not only in his outward reactions, but in his inner ones as well. It's easier to be angry at Harry for being James' son than to be constantly reminded of Lily and the fact that she is gone.

If Harry looked like his mother, maintaining his anger at Harry would be made much more difficult. Not that Severus wouldn't try-- I'm sure he would. But maintaining that opinion over many years would, IMO, be very hard to do.

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by TerrierMom

Personally I think that Snape, being deep down, one of the good guys, would not have been so dreadful to Harry if he'd looked like Lily. I'm not sure Snape would have been a father figure to him, and maybe not even as kind to Harry as other grown men in his life were. More like the way Dudley was towards Harry at start of DH, maybe. Although it would have been nice if Snape had been a Sirius or Lupin figure to Harry from his first day at Hogwarts. For me, I think the story ultimately would have ended the same, with Voldemort vanquished. Harry simply would have had a more pleasant experience at Hogwarts when dealing with Snape. I think Harry probably would have been better at Occlumency. But then part of me wonders whether Snape needed to be harsh with Harry in order to give Harry the strength to do what he needed to do---defeat Voldemort.

Unfortunately we might not have seen any difference- or at least known of any difference- in any event. Harry would still have been the boy- Lily's son- under threat of Voldemort's return.

And Snape would still beeen Snape the former Deatheater turned spy-under threat of Voldemort's return.

In GOF Crouch/Moody said something very fateful - I always took it to as a hint to part of the reason of how and why Snape behaved the way he did and why Dumbledore tolerated it. Moody said to Harry, Paraphraising "Use your strength's - use the tools that ya got."

Snape's best method and tools for helping the cause was to be a spy for DD and the Order and ultimately, his role as a spy depended on being nasty to Harry and in the very least appearing to loathe him. Snape used his bitterness and anger to position himself closer to Voldemort and provide that last final stronghold between Voldemort and Harry Potter.

I am afraid that as JKR wrote- Voldy- there was no other option for Snape. There was simply no imaginable course for visible "understanding" or the slightest signs of "empathy" under Voldemort's shadow. Snape risked his life saving the boy's life in the first year and had to explain that away as well.

No, I would rather imagine what would have happened if Snape had lived to see the end of Voldemort. Severus and Harry and would never have been friends - but I like to think that perhaps established a grudging and unspoken "understanding" could have been established and maybe even a respect of some kind.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ignisia

Well, no matter the circumstances, Snape simply could not be too close to Harry. Otherwise, Voldemort would just say: "So, the boy trusts you? Cool. Bring him to me."

Do you feel that is because Voldemort was averse to kidnapping? . I don't think that was a problem for him. When he wanted Luna, he didn't have Snape butter up to her first in order to get her. Voldemort couldn't get at Harry until he was 17 in any case, so there was no use in capturing the boy. Even if Voldemort did not realize this, Snape and the other Order members knew. Snape could have merely told him this to get out of the task and it would have been reaffirmed by what had happened at GoF and what subsequently happened in OOTP when Voldemort tried.

But as for Severus' personal opinion, I think Harry's resemblance to James reinforced the prejudice, but did not cause it. What caused it, IMO, was Severus' fear of his own feelings. He's quite consistently shown that he prefers to show anger rather than any softer feeling, as a defence mechanism. I think this is at work not only in his outward reactions, but in his inner ones as well. It's easier to be angry at Harry for being James' son than to be constantly reminded of Lily and the fact that she is gone.

Well according to JKR, Harry was a constant reminder that Lily had a preference for another man. So I would say that jealousy was a main underlying factor fueling Snape's outward reactions and inner feelings. Actually, popular opinion seems to agree, beyond JKR's acknowledgement; as that was a poll question for the CoS thread and (jealousy/envy) overwhelmingly defeated other explanations. And I feel that is reinforced by your initial opinion, which I agree with; Snape was volatile toward Harry (Potter's son) before they ever met - recall his words to Dumbledore on that topic, some 11 years before ever setting eyes on Harry. At that time, for all he knew, Harry was the spitting image of Lily; he knew for certain Harry had her eyes. The point for Snape was that he was "Potter's son". But he was indebted to Potter because James had saved his life when they were young and Snape's act had cost James his. So I think that may have also played a role in Snape's grudging agreement to help protect Harry - in addition to wanting to try and make up for that same act that had ultimately taken Lily's life. And of course he would not wish to go to Azkaban.

[silver ink pot]

We are not talking about a trip to Hogsmead; we are discussing Snape taking the decision regarding life and (good as) death into his own hands. It is not good, but not fatal, if you deny someone the right to speak over a trifling issue like a school trip. But when you are going to have someone (good as) executed, yes, they deserve the right to speak.

Harry wanted to kill Sirius without letting him speak, and Sirius wanted to hurry up and kill Peter without speaking before Harry stopped him.

Originally Posted by WWB

Even the most villainous of men have allowed their opponents a final last word.

Snape was never going to kill them anyway - it was up to Fudge, who was at the castle already with Dumbledore, and Snape knew that because of Buckbeak's execution and the Malfoy's part in that.

Originally Posted by WWB

The justification you provided only makes the situation worse, imo. He was behaving in a villainous manner because he wanted control? Because he anticipated excuses and reasons when imo, he is famous for his bad judgment and making terrible assumptions - and he knows this about himself? I don't see how that serves to justify his behavior at all. I do agree it explains his illogical reasoning, but it doesn't make his behaivor any less despicable in my view; only more so.

Sorry, I don't agree with any of that. Severus couldn't break the law by letting Sirius and Lupin tell him any old story, could he? He thought they conspired to kill Lily and James, which is just the flip side of the coin to what Sirius and Lupin thought about Peter. If Snape is "villainous" (maybe you need another word for that because repetition doesn't make it true) then so are they.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Harry wanted to kill Sirius without letting him speak, and Sirius wanted to hurry up and kill Peter without speaking before Harry stopped him.

Harry's wrongful action does not make Snape's right, imo. He would have been equally wrong (and villainious) - but note that canon provides that he "couldn't do it" even though he had ample opportunity to do so before Lupin intervened. So we don't ultimately know what Harry would have done, imo. In as far as your other example; Peter was questioned and allowed to speak for four and a half pages in canon before the decision was made to kill him, so I do not understand why you feel he was not given a chance to speak.

Sorry, I don't agree with any of that. Severus couldn't break the law by letting Sirius and Lupin tell him any old story, could he? He thought they conspired to kill Lily and James, which is just the flip side of the coin to what Sirius and Lupin thought about Peter. If Snape is "villainous" (maybe you need another word for that because repetition doesn't make it true) then so are they.

Again, the action of others does not justify Snape's act or make it right, imo. Sirius and Remus however, did give Peter an opportunity to speak; they questioned him and no one was demanding that they give Peter more of an opportunity to speak. They did not forcefully tell the trio to shut up and just let them kill Peter - first they discussed it and everyone there believed Peter was guilty, despite the things he said - he admitted to his guilt. So the situation is distinct in any case, imo. In fact, Lupin made a point of it; he told Sirius he had to wait until explanations were had - that Harry had a right to understand the truth that the both of them already understood. Sirius did not tell Lupin to shut up or bind him up so he could then kill Peter; he agreed and allowed Peter a chance to speak. Thus I would respectfully disagree it was he flip side of the coin. If Snape had allowed Sirius and/or Lupin to speak as much as Peter had been allowed to do, I would not be making this point. .

Snape was wrong to not listen, imo, despite 5 people asking him to do so. He was wrong to determine for himself that he had the right to take them to be kissed - that is what he said he was going to do - not take them up to the castle. In fact, this was made definitive in canon because originally Sirius believed Snape was only planning to take them up to the castle - he told Snape that he'd come quietly as long as the rat came too. But then Snape informed him that they were not going to the castle at all, but rather, he was going to take them directly to the dementors to be kissed. That is when Sirius became frightened - he realized he was dealing with someone who would not allow the truth to be told - ever - prior to having him and Lupin killed - the only two people who knew the truth. And it is also what provoked the trio to act together to stop Snape with their spell that knocked him unconscious, imo. Note even Hermione participated in this - and she would Never attack a professor and was worried sick afterward for having done so - but at the moment she felt she had to because Snape was being both irrational (unwilling to listen) and unfair (stating he was planning to have them kissed, imo.)

I am not sure what you mean by "any old story" - Snape didn't listen at all which means he could not make a judgment as to the nature of the story. It may have been great or poor to him, but he could not know because he refused to listen, imo. Listening would not have been breaking any laws, imo. I am not placing judgment on what Snape felt was the truth - I am only placing judgment on his wrongfullness in not allowing Sirius and Lupin to speak. He was so ademant about it, it was clear to me that Snape wanted to see Sirius and Remus dead at all costs and thus, did not wish for them to have any opportunity to say anything that might exonerate them.