Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

He accepted Harry as James's son. That was why he was able to help Harry IMO. He might have been very jealous about James winning Lily's love, but I think he respected her preference and also accepted Harry as not only Lily's son, but also James. Because Harry was. Even if Snape denied it to everyone (the quotes from canon which you have given) and even if as I think at times, Snape may have denied it to himself, the fact was that Harry was both Lily's and James's; Snape may not have liked it, maybe he ignored it (he did to everyone including Dumbledore) but if he hated Harry, passing on his dislike for James onto Harry, he would not have been able to pass on the memories and also not look after him all those years IMO.

He would have still worked in the Order for Lily's sake, he would have worked for Dumbledore, but he would not have been able to keep the Occlumency memories to himself, and he would have called for Harry's blood for the sectumsempra and he would have also asked Harry to return the Potions book, which he read very clearly off Harry's surface thoughts and he would not have called Lupin to give the Marauder's Map to him; knowing that Harry had used it to go to Hogsmeade IMO.

I respect your view; but for me, this was JKR's idea: Snape was to loathe Harry and despite that, he was placed in a position in life where he made a promise to help protect him. I feel JKR did a good job showing Snape attempting to do this while loathing the child. In my judgment, the idea was that it is not a good thing to loathe someone as an adult based on the fact that they were your schoolyard enemy; nor is it a good thing to loathe someone out of jealousy. So my impression was that Snape was to be seen as inappropriately holding onto his loathing for James (evidenced by Lupin explaining to Harry that he would not do this, despite having reasons to do so as an adult (Snape's exposure of him as a werewolf to his students) and despite his best friend, Sirius, still holding onto his (HBP) and also evidenced by Dumbledore believing that Snape would let go of his (OOTP).) On top of that, Snape was to be seen as having transferred his loathing to Harry which was unfair because the feelings driving Snape's actions and behavior toward the child had noting to do with the child in a direct sense. I felt the point was that the only reason Snape was able to keep his promise to Dumbledore at all, was to be based in the fact that he also had emotions for Lily and could contribute anything in that regard to his feelings for her.

So I believe that was JKR's idea for Snape's character in relation to Harry and I feel she did a good job convying that through Snape's character.

A vindictive Snape would have destroyed something of James, knowing that it would be very dear to Harry. He never does.

I feel that Snape did this when he ripped the family photo in half and took a half along with the 1/2 letter. I believe it was symbolic of an attempt to destroy something of James - his marriage - by taking Lily away from the family and showing disregard and loathing of the rest of the family by throwing the remainder of the photo onto the floor under the dresser. I feel Both the letter and photo would be very dear to Harry as pertaining to his parents, as well as the fact that they had been left to him by his beloved godfather who was also dead at that point.

He stopped Harry from falling off his broom in PS/SS. No other teacher seemed to have noticed anything amiss and most of them including McGonagall were present, I think. He was also willing to referee the next match, so that no one would try anything funny. In POA, he is the one who makes sure Harry will not have the Map that could tempt him to go alone when Black was on the loose; and yet he made sure it would be a teacher that would give the Map back to Harry, for it was something of his father. (I presume Snape was able to know whose map it was reading the probably very familiar insults there). He could have called Harry's Head of House; Harry would have never seen the Map again, or if he was really vindictive and hated James and took that out on Harry as many feel, this was the right chance for Snape to throw the hated parchment which insulted him into the fire. He would be justified in doing that as well. By giving it to Lupin, Snape made sure Harry would not have the Map to go out making him a target for Black, thus protecting him, and at the same time, ensured that the Map would be in safe hands and eventually go back to Harry. In GoF, Snape starts the active work, by going back into Voldemort service, both to do his bit for the WW and also to help Dumbledore to ensure Harry's survival. In OOTP, Snape tries to teach Harry Occlumency, but fails because of Harry's stubbornness; he is the reason Harry and the others survived the MOM battle, because he was the one who called for the Order. Else, Harry and the others may have died. No one else knew about their travel or of Harry's vision. In HBP Snape gives a pretty mild punishment to Harry, for almost killing Draco. And in the Flight of the Prince he saves Harry from being captured by the DEs and taken to Voldemort and also stops the crucio by Amycus. In DH he sends the doe and watches out for Harry to see if the sword is claimed properly, waiting to protect him in necessary. I think Snape did everything he could to protect Harry.

Well I discussed all of these things and as I indicated, I see these things as very perfunctory when it comes to actually protecting someone. That is because I feel they either required very little of Snape or he dropped the ball when the chore proved to be more than perfunctory, imo.

In my opinion this reinforces what JKR indicated she was doing with Snape's character. I saw this as a man who was attempting to keep his promise to Dumbledore to assist in protecting Harry; but his loathing of the child got in the way of his doing so for the most part. As such, I cannot credit Snape with more than superficially attempting to assist in Harry's protection when it came to actively doing so. However, indirectly, I feel he did help to protect Harry with his spying because there is no canon to indicate he gave less than his all in his spying efforts. The information he would garner and relay would help Dumbledore as did the work of the other Order members, in Dumbledore's overall effort to keep Harry safe until the right time.

And the others did? I don't think so. Were Sirius, Remus and Dumbledore watching Harry's every step; they never knew about Harry going to the MOM until Snape told them IMO.

In my opinion, some of the others did take every opportunity presented to them to protect Harry. The point I was making was that Snape was at Hogwarts and so he actually had an opportunity for more active protection if he had wanted to take it, imo, in light of his promise. But even if he didn't do that, when he did actually put forth effort, I feel he could have done so without dropping the ball. (In fairness, I feel McGonagall could have be a bit more active in this regard also, although she had not made a similar promise to my knowledge.)

Those you named did more active protecting than Snape, imo, and went out of their way to do so at times. They did go to the MOM and fight; Sirius did return to England and eat rats to be nearby to protect Harry and Lupin, throw himself in front of Harry to block a curse, Dumbledore did move Harry behind a statute and take on Voldemort for him. These people didn't drop the ball when the opportunity to protect Harry was upon them and that is the distinction in my opinion.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I feel that Snape did this when he ripped the family photo in half and took a half along with the 1/2 letter. I believe it was symbolic of an attempt to destroy something of James - his marriage - by taking Lily away from the family and showing disregard and loathing of the rest of the family by throwing the remainder of the photo onto the floor under the dresser. I feel Both the letter and photo would be very dear to Harry as pertaining to his parents, as well as the fact that they had been left to him by his beloved godfather who was also dead at that point.

He took the photo when he was at his lowest, when he needed the strength desperately to get him through the war or until he died, whichever was earlier IMO.

But the Map was different. There was no stress and no strain. Added to that the Map had insulted him and Snape knew it belonged to James, through the insults. Why should he call Lupin and give the map to him? Why not destroy something of James, legitimately; for he could always say that the parchment insulted him and was full of dark magic. Why did not Snape do that? Why take care of the parchment in such a way that it would eventually go back to Harry. This was something of James that Snape did not want to destroy so that James's son could have it; this alone shows IMO that Snape knew the difference between James and Harry and thought differently of Harry than he did of Snape IMO. There was no Lily's photo or her writing. This was the hated Marauders and this was his chnace to be mean to Harry by destroying the Map and also having a small bout of happiness for destroying something of James IMO.

Snape never does that. He merely makes sure that until Black is captured, Harry would not use it to go out and place himself in danger IMO.

Those you named did more active protecting than Snape, imo, and went out of their way to do so at times. They did go to the MOM and fight; Sirius did return to England and eat rats to be nearby to protect Harry and Lupin, throw himself in front of Harry to block a curse, Dumbledore did move Harry behind a statute and take on Voldemort for him. These people didn't drop the ball when the opportunity to protect Harry was upon them and that is the distinction in my opinion.

None of those whom you m\have mentioned protected Harry at Privet Drive IMO. Not even Sirius, after he escaped from Azkaban IMO.

Harry suffered there and everyone from Remus, to Sirius did not do a thing for him IMO.

Snape on the other hand did all that he could, including giving his life so that Harry may live. Yes while I believe that he did not know that he would die because of the EW, I also think that had he known too, nothing would have changed IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

He took the photo when he was at his lowest, when he needed the strength desperately to get him through the war or until he died, whichever was earlier IMO.

In my view, this does not make a difference. I was addressing your point that Snape never behaved in this manner, merely pointing out that in my opinion he had. I was under the impression that we were not discussing 'why' Snape did this, just that he had.

But the Map was different. There was no stress and no strain. Added to that the Map had insulted him and Snape knew it belonged to James, through the insults. Why should he call Lupin and give the map to him? Why not destroy something of James, legitimately; for he could always say that the parchment insulted him and was full of dark magic. Why did not Snape do that? Why take care of the parchment in such a way that it would eventually go back to Harry. This was something of James that Snape did not want to destroy so that James's son could have it; this alone shows IMO that Snape knew the difference between James and Harry and thought differently of Harry than he did of Snape IMO. There was no Lily's photo or her writing. This was the hated Marauders and this was his chnace to be mean to Harry by destroying the Map and also having a small bout of happiness for destroying something of James IMO.

Snape never does that. He merely makes sure that until Black is captured, Harry would not use it to go out and place himself in danger IMO.

I would have to disagree. I feel the reason Snape did not destroy the map is because Lupin was in control of it in the end. Lupin would not allow the great magical achievement to be destroyed, imo. I also feel Snape realized that Lupin would not allow it and conceded the point. I believe Snape felt Lupin would keep it from Harry if he truly were not helping Black (which was the case) - and that if Snape caught Harry with it again, he'd have more proof that Lupin actually was helping Black. So from Snape's POV, it was best to allow Lupin to keep it, imo.

None of those whom you m\have mentioned protected Harry at Privet Drive IMO. Not even Sirius, after he escaped from Azkaban IMO.

You may recall that after Sirius hit the scene, things became better for Harry at Privet Drive due to the fact that they were in fear of his godfather - the murderer. Harry would not have the abusive treatment to report that he had when he was younger, imo, and Sirius kept in contact with him so Harry could have reported anything if he wanted - to my knowledge, Harry never reported anything. Further, that is why when Sirius died, Lupin, Moody and Arthur spoke to Vernon directly, indicating that if he mistreated Harry, he would have to answer to them. They could only base their action on what Harry told them because Dumbledore made it clear Harry had to remain their for his protection.

So I don't feel this situation can be compared to the opportunities that Snape had to assist I was speaking of.

Harry suffered there and everyone from Remus, to Sirius did not do a thing for him IMO.

Above I explained why this was not the case in my judgment.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I would have to disagree. I feel the reason Snape did not destroy the map is because Lupin was in control of it in the end. Lupin would not allow the great magical achievement to be destroyed, imo. I also feel Snape realized that Lupin would not allow it and conceded the point. I believe Snape felt Lupin would keep it from Harry if he truly were not helping Black (which was the case) - and that if Snape caught Harry with it again, he'd have more proof that Lupin actually was helping Black. So from Snape's POV, it was best to allow Lupin to keep it, imo.

It seems to me that you are answering a different argument than TGW's. She argues that Snape called Lupin in the first place because he was not going to destroy the map. Lupin was involved at all only because Snape summoned him.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

It seems to me that you are answering a different argument than TGW's. She argues that Snape called Lupin in the first place because he was not going to destroy the map. Lupin was involved at all only because Snape summoned him.

I suppose I was not clear. I feel Snape summoned Lupin because he suspected he'd given Harry the map (which Snape said - POA). I am giving Snape the benefit of the doubt that he truly suspected Lupin might be in collusion with Black, an accusation he made more than once in POA. However, Snape had no definitive proof. My impression was that Snape felt that he might trip Lupin up by presenting the map and when that did not occur, he felt that he'd trip him up later if and when the map found its way back into Harry's hands. For if Lupin was truly in collusion and the map played an important role in Lupin and Black's plans, he'd give it back to Harry. (Note: Snape knew a lot about the dark arts and in my judgment, he knew the map had no dark magic involved in it - not to mention I feel he knew the Marauders had made it and knew that they would never use dark magic - but he'd know anyway as it was an area of expertise for him. Too, because he didn't press that issue and confiscate it indicating it should be destroyed or given to Dumbledore. So his statement in that regard was a purposeful mis-statement to subtly drive his suspicions home to Lupin, imo.)

I do not believe that Snape wished for Harry to have the map solely because his father helped to create it. That would be out of charcter for Snape, imo.

[Headless_Nick]

Those you named did more active protecting than Snape, imo, and went out of their way to do so at times. They did go to the MOM and fight; Sirius did return to England and eat rats to be nearby to protect Harry and Lupin, throw himself in front of Harry to block a curse, Dumbledore did move Harry behind a statute and take on Voldemort for him. These people didn't drop the ball when the opportunity to protect Harry was upon them and that is the distinction in my opinion.

Snape only fought Quirrell to save Harry in PS/SS. Then in DH he made sure that Harry got Gryffindor's sword. He also came up with the "seven potters" idea to help get Harry safely to Tonks' parents' house in DH. He did the best he could to help Harry without giving away his position to Voldemort and the Death Eaters. What he did do put him in even more danger than the other members of Order of the Phoenix. Bellatrix Lestrange questions him constantly.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by Headless_Nick

He also came up with the "seven potters" idea to help get Harry safely to Tonks' parents' house in DH.

The seven potters plot was a very risky plot that endangered the lives of 14 people, including Harry.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

The seven potters plot was a very risky plot that endangered the lives of 14 people, including Harry.

I agree and Moody and Hedwig died and George's ear was taken off. However, I believe Dumbledore came up with the plan - as well as asking Snape to deliver the sword. Snape came up with the method which I believe was not in line with what Dumbledore asked and would not have worked if Harry hadn't been wearing a horcrux about his neck and nearly drowned so Ron could save him (that disregarding the plot hole involved of Harry already having proved himself to the sword back in CoS.) I also don't remember a fight or duel between Snape and Quirrell.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by WWB

Snape knew a lot about the dark arts and in my judgment, he knew the map had no dark magic involved in it

Well, that's debatable, imo. You have to look at this from Snape's point of view.

The map would not "reveal its secrets" to him, and we know he is, indeed, an "expert" in the Dark Arts, which is why he was able to save people from the Dark Arts. So his intentions were good.

Unfortunately, the Map has a "brain" like alot of objects, and will only open if someone "solemnly swears they are up to no good."

Snape was "up to good" so the Map wouldn't open for him, and that made him suspicious - he was trying to protect Harry from Sirius Black, after all! (And so was everyone else.)

The proof that you have to out-think the map is in HBP, when Harry is trying to find Draco, and since Harry is "up to good" then the Map won't open. So he has to tell the map that Draco is up to no good before he can see it.

I presume that is also why he could use the Map to watch Ginny when the Carrows were in charge at Hogwarts - they were up to no good, so it worked.

I admit that JKR is inconsistent. The DA was "up to good" but Harry was able to use the map to watch them get back to their dorm rooms. But in that case Umbridge was "up to no good," and Harry was also breaking her rules.

[NumberEight]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

So he has to tell the map that Draco is up to no good before he can see it.

When did Harry do this?

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by JLTucker

When did Harry do this?

Chapter 18, HBP, pg. 387 American:

"I solemnly swear that I am up to no good . . . or Malfoy is anyway."

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Well, that's debatable, imo. You have to look at this from Snape's point of view.

The map would not "reveal its secrets" to him, and we know he is, indeed, an "expert" in the Dark Arts, which is why he was able to save people from the Dark Arts. So his intentions were good.

Unfortunately, the Map has a "brain" like alot of objects, and will only open if someone "solemnly swears they are up to no good."

Snape was "up to good" so the Map wouldn't open for him, and that made him suspicious - he was trying to protect Harry from Sirius Black, after all! (And so was everyone else.)

The proof that you have to out-think the map is in HBP, when Harry is trying to find Draco, and since Harry is "up to good" then the Map won't open. So he has to tell the map that Draco is up to no good before he can see it.

I presume that is also why he could use the Map to watch Ginny when the Carrows were in charge at Hogwarts - they were up to no good, so it worked.

I admit that JKR is inconsistent. The DA was "up to good" but Harry was able to use the map to watch them get back to their dorm rooms. But in that case Umbridge was "up to no good," and Harry was also breaking her rules.

I respect your view, however, Snape didn't know what the map did. All he knew about it was that it insulted him when he tried to use it. We know that spells of determination are not considered "dark" because Moody used the same type of blocking spell to keep Snape out of #12 G - where the invader of the house is confronted with "Severus Snape?" and then hit with a spell of determination as the trio was (unless you knew the password as Lupin did). I think Snape was well versed in the dark arts enough to realize it was not full of dark magic. He also didn't argue the point with Lupin.

As an aside, the Map did not have a "brain". It was a locater, showing where people were on Hogwarts grounds. It could not think, reason or show who it wanted to - nor could it answer you if you asked it to find someone. I am sure Hermione, a regular user, would have pointed out that it was dark in nature if JKR intended for it to be. In contrast, the diary seemed to speak, think, and even reason with Harry - attempting to guide his thoughts and acts (and Ginny's). As to your final point, the means of opening the map was merely a password, imo. Obviously the person does not have to be up to no good, nor does the person your looking at have to be up to no good as you pointed out. So it was merely meant to be a humorous password (from JKR's point of view), imo, and to the Marauders in story, who likely got a kick out of the password that only they would know. After all, up to no good does not equal evil; as we saw in the canon with Harry - as JKR stated in an interview, he was written to be a mischievous little boy (referenced JKR interview).

[ignisia]

It's an interesting thing to consider-- it's reasonable to assume, judging by the oath needed to use the map, that you must be breaking somebody's rules to use the map. It can't be too hard, since everyone has different ideas of what's "good".

Snape may have been rejected access because he didn't have the right keyword. But all the same, on a different level, that could also represent the idea that his attempted use of the map to follow rules was rejected on principle. The map, made by the Marauders, rejects rules by its mere existence and the keyword to use it. Snape in his professor-mode is, in a way, the antithesis of the sort of person that the map was made for.

[wickedwickedboy]

Well while it would be kicking cool if the map were that complex in design, I don't think it was. . If you were not up to "no good", but knew the password, it would work - as it did for Harry. There is no canon to show otherwise, imo.

[SusanBones]

I just thought that the map had been "programmed" to insult Snape if he tried to open it. Didn't Snape say his name when he was trying to get it to reveal its contents? The remarks were pretty specific to Snape.

[wickedwickedboy]

Yeah, he stated his name and occupation which triggered its response, specific to him. I believe it was a determination spell like we saw on #12 G.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by SusanBones

I just thought that the map had been "programmed" to insult Snape if he tried to open it. Didn't Snape say his name when he was trying to get it to reveal its contents? The remarks were pretty specific to Snape.

I would guess so too, although it's beyond me how it came up with insults it wasn't even prepared for. I thought the Marauders expected Snape to go out and become a DE, not teach at Hogwarts.

I think on a literal level, that is what happened. Snape was denied access because he didn't say the right thing. But on a deeper level, there are his motivations. It may or may not have occurred to the map (since "no good" is subjective) but as readers, it's something interesting we can pick up on. The map rejects someone who is attempting to uphold school rules.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ignisia

I would guess so too, although it's beyond me how it came up with insults it wasn't even prepared for. I thought the Marauders expected Snape to go out and become a DE, not teach at Hogwarts.

I think on a literal level, that is what happened. Snape was denied access because he didn't say the right thing. But on a deeper level, there are his motivations. It may or may not have occurred to the map (since "no good" is subjective) but as readers, it's something interesting we can pick up on. The map rejects someone who is attempting to uphold school rules.

But then, it should not have worked for Lupin when he was attempting to ensure school rules were being upheld in searching for the trio. Yet it did and he had to use the proper password to access it.

As to the question of Snape's occupation - he stated it and it was merely incorporated into the comments. The map would have likely made the same insults incorporating "Butcher" if that was the occpuation he had stated or if he hadn't stated one at all, it would have likely left that out and stuck with the basic insults.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I would have to disagree. I feel the reason Snape did not destroy the map is because Lupin was in control of it in the end. Lupin would not allow the great magical achievement to be destroyed, imo. I also feel Snape realized that Lupin would not allow it and conceded the point. I believe Snape felt Lupin would keep it from Harry if he truly were not helping Black (which was the case) - and that if Snape caught Harry with it again, he'd have more proof that Lupin actually was helping Black. So from Snape's POV, it was best to allow Lupin to keep it, imo.

zg's already answered. That is what I meant as well. Lupin never knew about the Map or that Fred and George had given it to Harry.

The Map also insulted Snape in such a way that he was sure it belonged to James or Sirius because Snape did not call for McGonagall or Dumbledore, as he would have if it was indeed dark magic. I am also sure Snape knew more about the dark arts then Lupin, and I also think Snape knew more about DADA than Lupin as well IMO.

Snape did not call for McGonagall and hand over the Map to her. Has he done so, Harry would have never seen it. He called Lupin. That IMO means 2 things. One, he knew that the Map was connected to the Marauders. There were 4 insults on that page and I am sure Snape would have realised that the 4 insults came form the 4 Marauders. 2 of then he knew were dead, one a traitor and an Azkaban escapee on the run and one remaining menber who was teaching DADA in Hogwarts IMO.

That was whom Snape called. He did not throw the Map into the fire and he would have been perfectly justified because the Map insulted him. Instead he gave back the Map to Harry through the person, he knew who would surely return what was Harry's father's possession back to him, but after the danger with Black was over IMO.

I think this shows that Snape did indeed see Harry differently from James and cared enough to give something of his father's back to him; especially when his father was someone Snape hated IMO.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

It seems to me that you are answering a different argument than TGW's. She argues that Snape called Lupin in the first place because he was not going to destroy the map. Lupin was involved at all only because Snape summoned him.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well while it would be kicking cool if the map were that complex in design, I don't think it was. . If you were not up to "no good", but knew the password, it would work - as it did for Harry. There is no canon to show otherwise, imo.

JKR recently said in an interview that wands are "quasi-sentient" (thinking, as in brain) in that they recognize wizards and have allegiences, just as the Elder Wand does.

The flying car, the paintings, the ghosts are all "sentient" even if you can't see where they keep their brains - that's canon that comes back in HBP when Ginny quotes her father again about "brainy" things, harking back to Tom Riddle's Diary, when she and Hermione are worried about Harry and the HBP book, which turns out to be just a book.

The Map doesn't just use passwords, it interacts and shows Harry the right word to use to enter the statue and go to Honeydukes.

And JKR said in an Interview that the map "helped" Fred and George figure out the password:

MA: How did they figure out how to work the map?

JKR: Don't you — well. This is how I explained it to myself at the time, and this does sound glib. Don't you think it would be quite a Fred and Georgeish thing to say in jest, and then see this thing transform?

MA: Yeah.

JKR: Can't you just see them?

ES: But the exact word combination? Is that just a lot of luck, or Felix Felicis —

JKR: Or, the map helped.

MA: Yep, yeah. You can see them sort of answering and joking with each other —

JKR: And the map flickering into life here and there when they got closer and closer, and finally they hit upon the exact right word combination and it just erupts.