Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

What canon are you referring to? I don't remember any statement or syllogism of this type in the series. Where are you getting this? Did this happen in the movie? I don't recall any book canon that indicated this. I think everyone would have figured out the truth if this had been revealed. But perhaps you are referring to a portion I don't recall?

I could be wrong, but I believe Wimsey was referring to Prince canon:

Half-Blood Prince "Naturally he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know --- he had no possible way of knowing --- which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father --- " ***AND*** "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --- "

From that we draw the conclusion that he hated James, so he didn't really regret that death. He didn't think Harry would survive and wasn't really concerned for the child. Which leaves: Lily.

But I disagree that Lily was the single motivating factor of Snape's behavior that night. His strong feelings about Sirius, mutual dislike that had existed for years, was also a major factor in Snape's reaction and intent in the Shack.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

I could be wrong, but I believe Wimsey was referring to Prince canon:


From that we draw the conclusion that he hated James, so he didn't really regret that death. He didn't think Harry would survive and wasn't really concerned for the child. Which leaves: Lily.

But I disagree that Lily was the single motivating factor of Snape's behavior that night. His strong feelings about Sirius, mutual dislike that had existed for years, was also a major factor in Snape's reaction and intent in the Shack.

Ah thanks. I would disagree that Harry would be able to make this deduction - he'd already witnessed SWM. Snape didn't only hate James, he hated Lily too, in Harry's mind. Harry made that perfectly clear when he was in the hospital room (he hated my mom too, he called her a Mudblood. In his experience, people Like Draco did that to Hermione and there was certainly no love lost between them .) So Harry would assume, imo, that Dumbledore was attempting to say that Snape regretted both his mother and father's deaths, despite hating them and that he'd shivered in his bootstraps when he found out the prophecy was people that he knew (which actually is a basis for criminals to turn on their conspirators in real life - many will kill faceless humans, but balk at the thought of killing someone they know because they put a name to a face.)

So I do not see this as a logical deduction for Harry to have made at all under the circumstances. Nothing in SWM made it seem like Snape was treating Lily any differently than Draco treated Hermione. Indeed there was in reality no difference at all except that Snape's behavior was worse, imo, because she had presumably been his friend at the time - at least in name. Harry was not attempting to vindicate Snape - why would he? The man helped to kill his parents and if either Dumbledore or Snape wished for Harry to trust Snape, then they should have come clean. You do not ask someone to blindly trust a man who not only helped to murder your parents, but was shown to have called your mother an unforgivable degrading term and spoke only ill of your father. On top of that, Snape mistreated Harry in an extreme manner, imo, and did so after supposedly feeling all of the regret Dumbledore spoke of and despite leaving Harry an orphan. It would be very difficult for Harry to characterize any of that in terms of Snape feeling regret for his deed, imo. I doubt his mind would ever reach the question of "why would Snape feel regret?" because he didn't believe Snape truly felt any, imo - and thus, he'd never ask "why did Snape come over to the good side?" because he didn't believe Snape had come over to the good side, imo.

Thus, I don't see even a slim possibility of any child Harry's age - even a much older child - being able to find trust in such a situation or reach the point of making any deductions about Snape. From his point of view he had no convincing evidence. Snape made Dumbledore promise not to tell his secret and with them both concealing the most important truth, they could not expect Harry to ever trust Snape. They tried to conceal the fact that Snape had carried the prophecy, but that got out, so it doomed both Snape and Dumbledore's attempts at being in any way convincing, imo.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

JKR said she wanted redemption

Well redemption is something you earn. But what acts are truly "redeemable". Certainly any hexs in his school years could be forgiven. Certainly, I think his general attitudes toward the students and Gryffindor can be forgiven. I will even mitigate his killing of Dumbledore since even though I still think he shouldn't have done it I blame it more on Dumbledore himself. Because of the complexity of the Lily, James, Snape drame I'd even be willing to allow for a sort of redemption.

My biggest sticking point is the time in between. His Death Eater years. He was eager to give Voldemort the prophecy---eager. Later he says he no longer--no longer--watches people people die if he could save them. Presumably then there were times he could have and did not. What made him become a DE? He believed in Voldemort's ideals. It wasn't simply trying to fit in where others ostracized him. He either killed innocents as a DE or watched them die and had a huge disregard for life as a whole. Neville is my main example. With Harry's life Snape has a huge stake. Feelings and emotions that are at times total irrational and other times very complex. Considering his heroic deeds later much of that can be mitigated if one were so inclined. I'm not inclined but I can see how he could gain redemption in JKR's view. But it was his treatment of Neville. His handing of the prophecy targeted two families. In the Longbottom case they were the epitome of loving parents and heroes. There was no hidden animosity toward the Longbottoms, from Snape's view, that warranted having their child murdered. Other than the fact that they fought Voldemort. Their child becomes a potential target from murder, and when the fates spare him in favor of Harry, they themselves get tortured into insanity by Snape's fellow Death Eaters.

For me there can be no complete redemption because of this. His treatment of Neville shows his true nature. His lack of empathy. His lack of understanding of the wrongs he had done. JKR wanted his redemption--I guess in a way he was. He was working for the good side. But true redemption comes from within, not without, and I think JKR failed to do this.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

But what acts are truly "redeemable".

I think that depends on the person who views Snape's life or reads about them. Harry for example thought Snape was redeemed, while another may not have. Snape, himself did not think he was redeemed enough IMO.

I think Snape was redeemed myself, not because I agree with Snape's actions while he was a DE or justify them, but because I feel Snape repented for his actions as a DE and he never forgave himself, like Dumbledore never forgave himself for his own actions and never thought all the good he did after ward would be equal and would go towards forgiving his actions with Grindelwald and Ariana.

Like wise, I feel Snape never forgave himself or felt that his protection of Harry and his work as a spy would negate or equalise his actions as a DE and he never stopped regretting or feeling remorse for his actions once he started realising just what his days as a DE had brought IMO.

But it was his treatment of Neville. His handing of the prophecy targeted two families. In the Longbottom case they were the epitome of loving parents and heroes. There was no hidden animosity toward the Longbottoms, from Snape's view, that warranted having their child murdered. Other than the fact that they fought Voldemort. Their child becomes a potential target from murder, and when the fates spare him in favor of Harry, they themselves get tortured into insanity by Snape's fellow Death Eaters.

That is why I feel Snape was playing a part; a part to hold himself ready for the day he would have to go back to being a DE and answering Voldemort's questions which would run along the same lines as Bellatrix's.

He could not treat Neville with a patience or Harry with an understanding or Hermione with acceptance and still look Voldemort in the eyes and expect him to look at Snape as his own, which was very important to the war.

I think it all boils down to priorities; seeing each action by itself makes all of them look very wrong IMO, but seeing all of them in the light of Snape's work and his role in the war, for me it is understandable and I don't see it as anything else.

Would Snape have been polite, pleasant and have twinkled his way like Dumbledore if it weren't for the war? I don't think so.

Would he would have still treated Neville in the same manner, made that comment in GOF against Hermione and treated Harry as we saw him do, if it weren't for the war? I am sure he would not have.

[Ellen]

Although, retrospectively, it seems obvious that Voldemort would hear the prophecy and then come after Harry or Neville, killing anyone who got in his way, I'm not sure how obvious that was before it happened.

Voldemort has had plenty of counterparts in history whose followers didn't always grasp how psycho these people were.

If you read about the atrocities committed in Nanking during World War II, you'll read how hundred - possibly thousands - of lives were saved by a member of the Nazi party living in the city. He also documented the events and sent reports to his government because he couldn't believe they wouldn't be as appalled as he was.

One woman who suffered terribly during the Chinese cultural revolution remained a stalwart supporter of the people who caused it because, in a country where the news was completely controlled by the government, she thought what happened to her was an isolated incident, an exception to the rules.

In the Harry Potter world, we have Regulus Black. We don't know what he saw first hand or only knew through rumors and allegations before what happened to Kreacher opened his eyes and he was willing to risk death in Kreacher's place to strike a blow against Voldemort (personally, I still suspect Regulus of having messed with Kreacher's memory and gone into hiding because I can see so many ways to have avoided getting killed in that situation, especially if he had time to plan things out ahead of time).

So, I come up against the question of what Snape knew about Voldemort's true ruthlessness before the prophecy and what he knew after.

There's also the reasonable question about whether or not he was more of a fringe member or someone in the inner circle before he gave Voldemort the prophecy, which could have had a lot to do with what he'd witnessed before that.

Answer: I don't know.

Speaking of the three most irritating words I know, those are right at the head of the list.

I can make a case for either extreme, that Snape had seen the absolute worst Voldemort could do and that Snape was as clueless as a newborn babe. I'm guessing he was somewhere between those extremes, but where? What had he witnessed? What had he taken part in?

Once again, I don't know.

However, I believe that he told Voldemort the prophecy not knowing what seems obvious to us, that it would lead to the murder of a small child and that child's family.

Look, Voldemort aped sanity and reasonableness. If you just listened to what he had to say in Deathly Hallows, you could come away thinking the attack on Hogwarts was all Harry's fault. You could think that he respected Neville. This is the guy who, back in Chamber of Secrets, had Harry believing Hagrid was responsible for what was happening. In their final meeting in Chamber, Harry's first reaction to seeing Tom in the Chamber with the nearly dead Ginny isn't to realize Tom's his enemy, it's to ask Tom for help.

Take a selection of characters from the book. How many of them, if you went to them with a prophecy saying a child was going to be born with the power to "challenge" them, would you expect to immediately go off and kill the child?

There are the obvious ones who wouldn't. Dumbledore? Never. McGonagall? She'd point out that she dealt with a schoolful of children challenging her every term at Hogwarts. Tell her something she didn't know.

But there are plenty of less obvious ones, as well. Can you imagine Draco trying to kill a baby because it's got more magical might than him? But even a dyed in the wool nut job like Bellatrix might be convinced that a child with the power to "challenge" her would be a great thing to recruit for Voldemort's side (there's even a very small chance she could come up with the idea on her own, although I wouldn't count on it).

I don't know what Snape saw or what he participated in. All I know is that Harry believed he could be and was redeemed - and that Rowling seems to agree with him.

[wickedwickedboy]

I respect that view Ellen. My personal feeling was that there would be nothing for Snape to be "redeemed" from if he had never accepted and participated in Voldemort's regime. Snape himself admits that he used to watch those die he could have saved and we heard him refer to a Muggleborn as a Mudblood in canon. His act of carrying the prophecy that would see at least a baby, and likely it's parents killed, was another indicator of Snape's moral stance at that time, imo. Earlier on we heard him call the use of dark magic against others 'just a laugh' and he was inventing dark arts magic himself as well as fascinated by it according to canon. So I feel there is enough canon to show that his moral view matched that of Voldemort in some respects at some point in his life.

While I think a 'nicer, kinder' Snape (relative to his DE acts) is easier to accept in as far as redemption goes, I don't think that is what we got. I don't think that is what we got in Regulus either - it is just that we have no evil act committed by him at all in canon - whereas for Snape we have the one. We don't have any committed by Lucius either during the first war - and yet he was a Death Eater at the time. It is easier to see Lucius as having participated in evil because we saw his later actions in canon - but not so for Regulus and Snape was working for Dumbledore (although one evil act was given in canon during the first war in his conspiracy to murder the baby.)

However, JKR told us what was going on during the first war and in my opinion, all of the DEs including Regulus, Snape and Lucius were all heavily involved in carrying out the evil deeds we heard about. They were Death Eaters and that is what that group did. Regulus and Snape rejected it and that is how they sought and found redemption from evil to good, imo.

For Snape, he also had a character which required redemption for some and JKR was unwilling to allow for that - so as she indicated, he died a bullying, cruel and vindictive man as he'd always been. So for some readers, if 'character redemption' is necessary, Snape would not be redeemed in their eyes. For others who like or can forgive his character or who feel that redemption only requires a rejection of evil (ala Voldemort), they can find redemption, imo. And then there are others who question whether the rejection of evil that Snape showed in canon is sufficient - JKR wrote what she did, but some may not see Snape as having rejected evil properly and to their personal standards, so he would not be redeemed in any respect for them.

So I think the views can be wide and varied and I have certainly not covered them all with the general propositions I have made. But I think those ideas are enough to show that there is no one definitive answer for everyone.

Originally Posted by Ellen

I don't know what Snape saw or what he participated in. All I know is that Harry believed he could be and was redeemed - and that Rowling seems to agree with him.

I thought it was the other way around myself; JKR believed Snape could be redeemed and caused Harry to find him so. But again, Harry's position does not speak for all readers because everyone has a personal view of redemption and its requirements, imo.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by Ellen

However, I believe that he told Voldemort the prophecy not knowing what seems obvious to us, that it would lead to the murder of a small child and that child's family.

If that's what you believe, then okay.

For me, the books tell us point blank that Severus overheard that prophecy and knew that it concerned "his master most deeply". Severus was a very intelligent & skilled wizard and he "knew" the prophecy was important.

The Prophecy The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thriced defied him....born as the seventh month dies...

At this point in time, the overhearing of the prophecy was prior to either Neville's or Harry's birth. But Severus, the intelligent man that he was, would have naturally understood it to mean a child born to parents who'd thrice defied Voldemort, a child born at the end of July, would be the 'vanquisher' of the Dark Lord and rushed off to let his master know.

So, to me, Severus did know the prophecy meant a small child, just not knowing which child it would be or the future impact Voldemort's choice would have on him.

Lily was the factor which turned Severus to the good side. Had Voldemort chosen Neville Longbottom as his future 'vanquisher' rather than Harry Potter, would Snape have switched sides? Would he have acted to save the lives of two parents and the life of their small, innocent child? Or would he have just let it happen?

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by Katsuki

Snape thought he knew who the Secret Keeper was. He was wrong as was the rest of the wizarding world. As for his feelings about thinking about Sirius as a hypocrite for supposedly stewing over Sirius's betraying James/Lily/Harry for 13 years, where is that ever even implied in the story? He never had a high opinion of either James/Sirius and wouldn't have trusted either as far as he could kick 'em, and IMO he wasn't a bit shocked that Sirius was supposedly behind the betrayal.

I'm sorry but you seem to have completely missed my point. Snape thought he had all the facts regarding Sirius - people who think they have all the facts do not need to listen to a murderer, a murderers accomplice and three kids tell him he is wrong. I have no problem whatsoever with Snape's behaviour. In fact it is something that happens a lot in the real world (though thankfully not so much in the UK as we don't have armed police) and in the movies when the police attempt to "take someone out" because they believe them to be a dangerous criminal when they are in fact innocent. You don't get the police going "He says he is innocent - so does his long time friend and three kids perhaps we better not shoot"
I think that Severus's feelings regarding Sirius's apparent hypocricy scream off the page during the shrieking shack scene but are most obvious in his comments regarding James's arrogance in thinking he could not be wrong about Black.

Originally Posted by Katsuki

He could have listened, he chose not to. He chose to invent his own reason because "vengeance is sweet".

What was this reason that Severus invented? I do not recall him "inventing" a reason. I recall him wanting to get three students (one of whom has already had 2 attempts on his life) out of the prescence of a murderer and his accomplice. Severus could have listened and as a result been overpowered by Sirius and Remus and Harry could have ended up dead. It is very easy to be wise after the event and claim that Severus was just being mean when he is in fact working to protect Harry.

Originally Posted by Katsuki

He was tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, and like a Gitmo detainee, shuffled off to Azkaban with all the other wizard malcontents.

No Sirius didn't get a fair trial - but how is Severus to blame for that? It is the Ministry that makes the decisions - just as it was the Ministry that decided that Sirius was to be kissed as soon as he was caught. Severus was merely carrying out a sentence that has already been passed. In fact if he had listened and Sirius had escaped or the trio harmed in any way Severus could have been held responsible and rightly so.
The only problem I see with Severus's behaviour in this scene is his unseemly glee that a man is to suffer such an appalling fate. But again while it may be unseemly it is something that is often seen in the real world. When one desires vengeance then no punishment is enough and the so-called sweetness is fleeting and unsatisfying.
This is the great tragedy of Severus - his inability to forgive. He has no peace because he cannot forgive, and that extends to himself just as much as to others. He is a man eaten up with guilt and self-loathing. If you compare him to Harry, who is able to forgive; Harry is able to overcome his feelings of being responsible for Sirius's death which threaten to overwhelm him at the end of OotP and through being able to forgive himself he is able to move on in his life. Severus cannot move on in his life because he is unable to forgive himself.

Originally Posted by Katsuki

Really? Because neither Harry, Ron, Hermione, Remus, or Dumbledore would have done so, nor do I believe that Minerva or the other staff of Hogwarts would have done so either. We've seen Minerva's reaction to the Dementors sucking someone's soul out.

Yes. In fact that is why Harry has to rescue Sirius, because the Ministry has ordered that Sirius be kissed when he has been captured. Perhaps the people you mentioned didn't want it to happen, but if any of them had captured Sirius they would have handed him over to the Ministry and he would have been kissed. In fact at one point when Harry still believed Sirius to be guilty Harry himself said that Sirius deserved it.

Originally Posted by Katsuki

He'd had a mental break. Is that his fault? Yes, okay, Dumbledore tells us that Sirius hadn't acted innocent. He certainly didn't, but we know the motivations behind his actions. He was trying to capture the real culprit so he could murder him.

I didn't say it was Sirius's fault! I don't understand why you are so defensive of Sirius - I was merely pointing out the facts as they were known at the time in the Shrieking Shack and they were that Sirius was a very dangerous Mass Murderer. We know otherwise because we are the reader.

Originally Posted by Katsuki

Frankly, if he'd been really concerned about the kids being out of bounds and suffering the effects of a mind alteration, discovered in the presence of a werewolf/teacher and an accused mass murderer, spot on would have been to knock the two adults out cold while still concealed under the cloak, then reversing the 'supposed' Confundus charm, and then marching everyone up to Dumbledore's office---or better still, summoning Dumbledore to the scene via a Patronus Charm. None of that happened, of course.

Yes agreed - but Severus has a strong desire to avenge the death of his beloved Lily by capturing her betrayer. These feelings which motivate his behaviour are the same ones that motivate Harry both of whom are guilty of letting their emotions impair their judgement. Severus really needs to listen to his own "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" speech here because he is behaving in a very emotional manner, letting his feelings dictate his behaviour. This isn't good but it is very human.

Originally Posted by Katsuki

There are times in the books in which, despite the actions of Death Eaters or other characters, they're not killed for what they've done, or worse, handed over to have their souls sucked out just so a character can savor the sweetness of vengeance.

I really don't get your point. Sirius was not going to be kissed because Severus wanted revenge, he was going to be kissed because he was believed to be a mass murderer. Severus was going to enjoy having captured Sirius and thus having a hand in his punishment, which is not unusual for someone who has lost a loved one. I'm not saying it's good - I personally think revenge is a self-destructive motive for anything, what I am saying is that it is understandable.

Oh and I Wimsey too!

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

Well redemption is something you earn.

I would disagree with that. My personal belief is that redemption is a free gift, but we are likely to stray into a theological debate about redemption here.
I think what is important is not what you or I personally beleive about redemption but what JKR beleives about redemption and how that influenced the character and story arc of Severus Snape.

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

For me there can be no complete redemption because of this. His treatment of Neville shows his true nature. His lack of empathy. His lack of understanding of the wrongs he had done. JKR wanted his redemption--I guess in a way he was. He was working for the good side. But true redemption comes from within, not without, and I think JKR failed to do this.

This is why I adore Snape so much. Harry is the "truly redeemed" hero of the book. He is flawed and he makes mistakes, but it is his response to those mistakes that makes him truly great and is his redemption (and enables him to conquer Voldemort) Severus Snape, however, to me represents your average Christian, the guy who has strayed, has found the way back and wants to be good but because his love is imperfect, because he can't forgive he never quite reaches "full redemption". JKR wanted his redemption and from a Christian perspective (bearing in mind that she is Christian) I think she got it spot on. Despite his flaws, despite his lack of forgiveness, he goes on striving to do the right thing until he dies and I personally think what JKR is saying is that that is what Christian redemption is about.

[kittling]

Firstly Wimsey & Ellen I just want to say I loved your posts

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

So, to me, Severus did know the prophecy meant a small child, just not knowing which child it would be or the future impact Voldemort's choice would have on him.

Yes I think he would have worked that out but Ellen’s point about the possibility of Snape not realising that Voldemort would then go off and kill the child still stands imo

Lily was the factor which turned Severus to the good side. Had Voldemort chosen Neville Longbottom as his future 'vanquisher' rather than Harry Potter, would Snape have switched sides? Would he have acted to save the lives of two parents and the life of their small, innocent child? Or would he have just let it happen?

That’s an interesting point! I wonder if it is this very question is one of the reasons why Severus treats Neville the way he does – I imagine if the answer in his mind is either ‘No’ or ‘I don’t know’ seeing Neville would be very painful for him, as a person who has made a significant change in his own ethics, to be faced with.

[Labrynth]

Ellen, fantastic post.

Something to consider... and I don't have the direct quote right now, but it's in OotP in the Occlumency chapter. Snape makes a comment that just like James, criticism bounces off Harry.

Did Snape even realize that his words DO have the power to effect those around him? Especially Harry? We know they had very visual effects on Neville for instance, but did Snape realize there could easily be lasting effects, or did he think like James, that everything bounced off of them?

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

Ellen, fantastic post.Did Snape even realize that his words DO have the power to effect those around him? Especially Harry? We know they had very visual effects on Neville for instance, but did Snape realize there could easily be lasting effects, or did he think like James, that everything bounced off of them?

He may have, but I doubt it - considering criticisms didn't bounce off James either as Snape found out in SWM. Also, he'd have to have been blind not to see the reactions of Harry, Neville, Ron and Hermione to his caustic statements and behavior. Hermione ran out crying - how could he imagine that his words bounced off of her? Harry told him to "SHUT UP about my dad" - again, Snape would have to realize his comparative criticism was not bouncing off. And the fact that Snape became Neville's greatest fear (and Snape knew this) would be another signal that his words and behavior were having a tremendous impact on Neville's psyche, imo. So I think Snape was talking nonsense here as he was prone to do at times when in a vindictive or emotional state.

Originally Posted by kittling

That’s an interesting point! I wonder if it is this very question is one of the reasons why Severus treats Neville the way he does – I imagine if the answer in his mind is either ‘No’ or ‘I don’t know’ seeing Neville would be very painful for him, as a person who has made a significant change in his own ethics, to be faced with.

I don't know about that because why would Snape in recognition of his change in ethical stance and the negative consequences to Neville being one of the reasons for change cause him to mistreat the lad so badly? Wouldn't that be a contrary response?

Snape feeling pain and anguish at thoughts of the consequences to the Longbottoms and Neville's situation would be based in sympathy and regret for not having had a better ethical stance, no? So turning around and mistreating the child miserably in an expression of that pain and anguish (and regret and sympathy) would make no sense to me.

[kittling]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I don't know about that because why would Snape in recognition of his change in ethical stance and the negative consequences to Neville being an example of that cause him to mistreat the lad so badly? Wouldn't that be a contrary response?

I was meaning that if his change occured only because of Snapes feelings about Lily (or if he suspects that this might be the case) then seeing Neville (who was nearly targeted but wasn't) would remind him not oonly of what he once was but how close he came to not changing.

If this is the case then Neville would be a walking reminder of how close he came to staying something he now works against - I think that could be painful

Is that any clearer???

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

I'm sorry but you seem to have completely missed my point. Snape thought he had all the facts regarding Sirius - people who think they have all the facts do not need to listen to a murderer, a murderers accomplice and three kids tell him he is wrong.

Sorry, CathyWeasley, if that's how it came across to you but I didn't miss your point, I disputed it.

Any reasonable person such as Minerva or Dumbledore would have listened before consigning two men to having their souls sucked out. So why didn't Severus?

What was this reason that Severus invented? I do not recall him "inventing" a reason.

The so-called "Confundus Charm". There really was no evidence that they'd been confunded, yet he insisted it was so, because otherwise it meant he was wrong and he didn't want to be wrong. To me there's nothing wrong with his wanting to be right. I get why that is, nor have I ever claimed that 'Snape was being mean'. I have, at times, argued the point that Snape was a bully, but that wasn't an issue in this instance, IMO. He allowed his emotions- anger/frustration/hatred/grief/self-loathing - to control his actions that night. IMO.

Severus was merely carrying out a sentence that has already been passed. In fact if he had listened and Sirius had escaped or the trio harmed in any way Severus could have been held responsible and rightly so.

Again, IMO, Severus was overstepping himself in having the sentence immediately carried out and intending to see the same sentence carried out on another individual. Would Dumbledore have done this? No. Would Minerva or any of the other staff have done this? No, again, not in my opinion. Would Snape have known this? IMO, yes, he'd have known that Dumbledore and the others would have listened before allowing a such an horrific sentence to be carried out. So then why did Severus attempt it?

I'm not trying to be unreasonable here or to pick on Severus. I'm asking a simple question. It's not about who's good/bad or who's better/worse. It's the reasoning behind a character's actions. Yes, I can agree that one of the great tragedies of Snape is his inability to forgive, to accept, to move beyond. But I also think one of his greatest redeeming qualities is his bravery in perseverance in such a thankless job, in bringing Voldemort down - and that journey begins, truly begins, at the loss of Lily.

[Perhaps the people you mentioned didn't want it to happen, but if any of them had captured Sirius they would have handed him over to the Ministry and he would have been kissed.

Not without first questioning either Sirius or Remus. That's truly is the entire point behind my post. They would have listened, yet Severus would not. They did listen, in fact, and Dumbledore/Harry/Hermione ensured that despite the Minister's intent to carry out the sentence as proscribed, it wouldn't occur at all.

I didn't say it was Sirius's fault! I don't understand why you are so defensive of Sirius - I was merely pointing out the facts as they were known at the time in the Shrieking Shack and they were that Sirius was a very dangerous Mass Murderer. We know otherwise because we are the reader.

Actually, I'm not being defensive of Sirius, he's one of the characters I happen to like least in the series. You asked why he'd not spoken up to redeem himself, to keep himself out of Azkaban. I gave the answer. "He'd had a mental break. Is that his fault?" He really didn't have a lot of control over what happened and then he was chucked in the grey-bar motel with dementoids who stood outside his cell day and night, and that's not terribly conducive to logical, rational thinking (of which I'm not too sure he was prone to anyway.) *shrugs*

Yes agreed - but Severus has a strong desire to avenge the death of his beloved Lily by capturing her betrayer. These feelings which motivate his behaviour are the same ones that motivate Harry both of whom are guilty of letting their emotions impair their judgement. Severus really needs to listen to his own "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" speech here because he is behaving in a very emotional manner, letting his feelings dictate his behaviour. This isn't good but it is very human.

Yep, I agree, I'd just add Lily wasn't Severus's sole motivating factor that evening. IMO the antipathy for Sirius has been long-standing and well-established and that too, played a major part in his behavior/actions that night. So too for Remus. Not to mention Harry being out of bounds and leading his friends into danger too.

I really don't get your point. Sirius was not going to be kissed because Severus wanted revenge, he was going to be kissed because he was believed to be a mass murderer

I disagree.

Yes, the sentence had been pronounced by the Ministry and yes, the Ministry intended to carry it out. But Severus's actions, IMO, weren't motivated solely by turning over a criminal to have justice served.

Again, it goes back to what you mentioned "here because he is behaving in a very emotional manner, letting his feelings dictate his behaviour." That's what I'm saying too. Marching Sirius and Remus off to be kissed was not simply because Snape had caught a criminal and wanted to see sentence carried out. He chose to by-pass taking Sirius to Dumbledore for a reason and IMO that reason was because he knew that Dumbledore would give the condemned a chance to speak. Severus was quite upset when it appeared that Dumbledore had heard Black and believed his story, too. Which just goes to further cement that opinion in my brain.

Yes I think he would have worked that out but Ellen’s point about the possibility of Snape not realising that Voldemort would then go off and kill the child still stands imo

I disagree, because to me Severus is not a stupid man. He's an intelligent man, a skilled wizard, a gifted potioneer. When not clouded by personal matters/grudges, Snape's intellect is quite logical and coldly astute, he's the one that came up with the logic puzzle at the end of Philosopher's Stone, because he knew most wizards didn't use logical thinking - but he did/does. To me, to say that he didn't reason out that simple snippet of prophecy he'd overheard is like saying he couldn't add 2+2. It boggles the mind, it just does not compute, that is not the Severus Snape I've read about in the novels.

On Jo Rowling's website, there's an F.A.Q. about: The significance of Neville being the other boy...What Jo explains is that: "'He [the eavesdropper {Severus Snape}] only heard the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you.'

See, this again cites back to Phoenix and strongly implies that Severus did indeed understand the prophecy, and if he'd heard the next verse - ...and the Dark Lord shall mark him as his equal... - would have cautioned his master against attacking his intended victim, the victim being a child born at the end of July to parents who'd defied Voldemort three times. Granted, he couldn't know specifically who Voldemort would target, but to me, he did know that Voldemort would target a child.

[DeathlyH]

Originally Posted by Ellen

However, I believe that he told Voldemort the prophecy not knowing what seems obvious to us, that it would lead to the murder of a small child and that child's family.

Really? Snape wasn't a complete idiot. All he had to do was listen to the words of the prophecy, and he would know that somebody who could vanquish Voldemort was approaching. There's no way Snape doesn't know this, because it's said flat-out in the part of the prophecy that Snape heard.

If he tells Voldemort, what does he think he will do to the baby? Turn him into a rock? No. Snape knew Voldemort, and he knew that if somebody came up that could possibly pose a threat to him then that person would be killed. It's flat-out impossible that Snape doesn't realize that. He wasn't a simple servant relaying messages to his Master, he was one of the top Death Eaters. I respect your opinion, but I would also like to hear an explanation of why you think that, because I certainly don't agree.

Snape was well aware that he was endangering people's lives by doing this. He didn't know who the baby would be, but from a moral standpoint that hardly matters, does it? People are people, and a human life is worth as much as any other.

[mexicant]

Tone, guys. Watch it. Be polite and talk to each other the way you would prefer to be spoken to. Don't make it personal and if you find yourself developing a problem with someone, use the report post function or owl a mod.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by kittling

I was meaning that if his change occured only because of Snapes feelings about Lily (or if he suspects that this might be the case) then seeing Neville (who was nearly targeted but wasn't) would remind him not oonly of what he once was but how close he came to not changing.

If this is the case then Neville would be a walking reminder of how close he came to staying something he now works against - I think that could be painful Is that any clearer???

Yes . I agree it is something that could be painful. I agree with that part, I was just questioning how feeling that pain would result in his treatment of Neville. It would seem to be a contradictory response - giving him even more ethical issues to worry over, see what I mean?

Originally Posted by DeathlyH

Snape was well aware that he was endangering people's lives by doing this. He didn't know who the baby would be, but from a moral standpoint that hardly matters, does it? People are people, and a human life is worth as much as any other.

I agree. It didn't matter who the child was; it could have been Draco for example, the child of a loyal Death Eater and Voldemort would have still killed him and Lucius and Narcissa too if they attempted to stop him, imo. The prophecy foretold of a child that would present a challenge and according to the part he heard, have the power and/or resources to wipe him out. Voldemort was having Order members wiped out left and right merely because they were attempting to challenge him with no prophecy behind them. Also, they were killing Muggles and Muggleborns, some of whom presented no challenge at all. So the liklihood that Voldemort would do anything but kill the child designated in the prophecy is zero to none, in my judgment.

However, Snape was a Death Eater at the time; and according to JKR, if Lily hadn't been targeted, he would have remained a Death Eater. So he was very loyal to Voldemort and as I pointed out in an above post, held similar views. Recall he said he used to watch people die without trying to save them and that was simply his mentality back then - so his relaying the prophecy was merely a means of assisting a regime he believed in from his point of view, imo. It is terrible to conspire to target a baby for death - but it is equally terrible to participate in the mass murder of Muggles or help kill Order members - so it is all relative. This is the stuff Snape required redemption from evil to good for, imo.

[Kat_Suki]

Actually, Sev's behavior with Neville could very well be because Voldemort targetted the Potters and not the Longbottoms. Lily might still be alive if Voldemort had targetted the other boy, the also ran of the prophecy. Displaced anger, in a manner of speaking.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by Katsuki

He allowed his emotions- anger/frustration/hatred/grief/self-loathing - to control his actions that night. IMO.

I totally agree with this

Again, IMO, Severus was overstepping himself in having the sentence immediately carried out and intending to see the same sentence carried out on another individual. Would Dumbledore have done this? No. Would Minerva or any of the other staff have done this? No, again, not in my opinion. Would Snape have known this? IMO, yes, he'd have known that Dumbledore and the others would have listened before allowing a such an horrific sentence to be carried out. So then why did Severus attempt it?

IMO Severus wasn't actually going to have the kiss performed immediately on both Sirius and Remus.

Severus for the first time is in a position of power over Sirius, and is enjoying it very much. This is the part of the revenge that is connected with his own experience of being bullied - he is effectively saying "I'm in charge now, and you're going back to the castle." However Sirius spoils this by saying "Yeah fine I'll go." I beleive that if Sirius had never bullied Severus then they would have gone back to the castle, but Severus wants to make Sirius feel as he did as a kid - powerless, so he threatens to have Sirius kissed immediately - and it works because Sirius is terrified.

IMO when Severus then threatens Remus as well it exposes his bluff - that he really has no intention of having anyone kissed immediately, because while I could consider him capable of letting Sirius be kissed given what he beleives him to be guilty of, I can't see him allowing Remus to be kissed before he has been exposed to the Ministry as a murderers accomplice.

This is something that we see time and again with Severus. He loves to threaten people, but rarely carries out those threats. It is this threatening behaviour that so terrifies Neville (probably because his grandmother always followed through on her threats) whereas it doesn't effect Harry so badly because he is more used to being threatened by the Dursleys and knows that he won't come to any real harm. (But does cause psychological harm - this is what makes Severus a bully.)

So IMO Severus had no intention of immediately having both men kissed, but merely wanted to see them cower under the illusion that he would and that he had the power to do so. This is why when he comes around he conjurs up stretchers and arranges for everyone to go back to the castle. You can't psychologically bully someone when they are unconscious.

Actually, I'm not being defensive of Sirius, he's one of the characters I happen to like least in the series. You asked why he'd not spoken up to redeem himself, to keep himself out of Azkaban. I gave the answer. "He'd had a mental break. Is that his fault?" He really didn't have a lot of control over what happened and then he was chucked in the grey-bar motel with dementoids who stood outside his cell day and night, and that's not terribly conducive to logical, rational thinking (of which I'm not too sure he was prone to anyway.) *shrugs*

Sorry if I came across as aggressive. I was just surprised by the "Is that his fault?" because I was in no way suggesting that it was. Sirius was unhinged after the deaths of James and Lily, and I think Severus was too. I also think that Severus was unhinged in the shrieking shack. This was his chance to confront the man he saw as responsible for Lily's death (just as Sirius confronted Pettigrew in the street) and I don't think Severus was being particularly rational or logical in the Shrieking Shack for the same reasons that Sirius wasn't rational or logical after his capture. So just as Sirius never said he was innocent, so Severus believes that the trio have been confunded because nothing will shake his belief that Sirius is guilty. Nothing.

He chose to by-pass taking Sirius to Dumbledore for a reason and IMO that reason was because he knew that Dumbledore would give the condemned a chance to speak. Severus was quite upset when it appeared that Dumbledore had heard Black and believed his story, too. Which just goes to further cement that opinion in my brain.

But he didn't carry it through - it was just a threat. If he really wanted to just get rid of Sirius he would have called the dementors while Sirius was unconscious, but he didn't. He had Sirius taken up to the castle.
And his response to Sirius escaping goes back to what I was saying that nothing would shake his belief that Sirius was guilty. The belief was so deeply ingrained in his brain that it took a long time (best part of a year IMO) for Severus to process this information. I think Dumbledore understood this and was why he was amused rather than alarmed at Sev's reaction

Actually, Sev's behavior with Neville could very well be because Voldemort targetted the Potters and not the Longbottoms. Lily might still be alive if Voldemort had targetted the other boy, the also ran of the prophecy.

I agree. I have always thought that he picked on Neville for this reason. Bearing in mind that Sev didn't know the full prophecy could it have been possible that Sev thought that there was a chance that Neville might be the Chosen one?

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

But he didn't carry it through - it was just a threat. If he really wanted to just get rid of Sirius he would have called the dementors while Sirius was unconscious, but he didn't. He had Sirius taken up to the castle.

CathyWeasley, I think most of your analysis is spot on, but I don't agree with this part. Snape woke up to see a hundred dementors fleeing. He doesn't know what's out there driving them away. Maybe Dumbledore, since Dumbledore is the one person who has demonstrated the ability to singlehandedly drive away a hundred dementors during the Gryffindor-Hufflepuff Qudditch match. I think that Snape realizing that there is something big driving off the dementors has something to do with him choosing to go to the castle instead. Plus, Sirius already has been sentenced to a dementor's kiss, whether he goes up to the castle or not. Lupin is another matter, but when Snape wakes up there is no longer an opportunity to hand him directly to the dementors, because Lupin is gone. Basically, Snape wakes up to a different set of circumstances than what existed when he was knocked out, so I think he changed his mind about going to the dementors, and went up to the castle instead.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

I agree. I have always thought that he picked on Neville for this reason. Bearing in mind that Sev didn't know the full prophecy could it have been possible that Sev thought that there was a chance that Neville might be the Chosen one?

I don't really understand how that would serve as a motivation for Snape to pick on Neville. Snape carrying the prophecy to the dark lord and his being temporarily vanquished as a consequence, caused the DEs tortured Neville's parents to lunacy in an attempt to find Voldeomrt. So if anything, Snape should have felt regret for effectively leaving Neville parentless, similar to Harry. I'm not certain Snape would blame Neville as the representative of the Longbottom family, for Voldemort's choice that ended Lily's life. While Snape both was shown to participate in illogical transference of his emotions to innocent parties and blame everyone possible for Lily's death, imo, I think that is a bit of a stretch, even for Snape.

I think the other contention rings with a little more possibility, although there is no canon to support it, imo. Since Snape did not know the entire prophecy, Neville would be a possible candidate for the future vanquisher of Voldemort - or at least could have been. I feel it possible that Snape would be jealous of that potential in Neville, similar to his feelngs about Harry in that regard. I feel Snape's statements in his first class with Harry showed that he felt people 'marked' as special was something that truly bothered him. It is interesting because neither Harry nor Neville were super incredible magicians and I feel that fact would have made a wise man understand that both of these children had something other than traditional magic that would make them powerful enough to challenge the dark lord. But, while Snape was intelligent in certain respects, he was not a wise man, imo, and apparently that thought did not cross his mind.