Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[arithmancer]

Snape did not know the "insulting parchment" was a map, but this, or a very similar function, was his best guess.

PoA "So!" said Snape, his long nostrils quivering. "Is this another treasured gift from Mr. Weasley? Or is it -- something else? A letter, perhaps, written in invisible ink? Or -- instructions to get into Hogsmeade without passing the dementors?"

[silver ink pot]

I don't see why it has to be an "either-or" thing between Snape/Harry. They both had ambiguous feelings, which translates to me as a love-hate relationship, at least at the time of Snape's death and afterward. In my opinion, Harry might have loved Snape's memory because he named his son "Severus." That's just an opinion and I realize other people feel otherwise.

To change the subject a little . . .

I know we have talked about the fact that Snape carried the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry and put it where he could find it (and no, I don't think he was trying to drown the kid in the pool).

But today, I came across this line from Scrimgeour, when Dumbledore tries to leave Harry the Sword of Gryffindor in his Last Will and Testament, Chapter 7.

"According to reliable historical sources, the sword may present itself to any worthy Gryffindor," said Scrimgeour. "That does not make it the exclusive property of Mr. Potter, whatever Dumbledore may have decided."

OK, so that obviously sets up the fact that Ron uses the sword to destroy the horcrux, and Neville kills the snake, but it also confirms Dumbledore's and Harry's view of Snape as "the bravest man" and "sorted too soon" into Slytherin.

I think that's a clue that Snape was actually a Gryffindor at heart (not that I'm bothered by his being in Slytherin, lol). Anyway, the way Scrimgeour puts it, the sword definitely "presents itself" to Snape.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Snape did not know the "insulting parchment" was a map, but this, or a very similar function, was his best guess.

I really like that part. What I think he's doing there is listing possible uses for the parchment and looking at Harry too see which one makes him look the guiltiest.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

"According to reliable historical sources, the sword may present itself to any worthy Gryffindor," said Scrimgeour. "That does not make it the exclusive property of Mr. Potter, whatever Dumbledore may have decided."

OK, so that obviously sets up the fact that Ron uses the sword to destroy the horcrux, and Neville kills the snake, but it also confirms Dumbledore's and Harry's view of Snape as "the bravest man" and "sorted too soon" into Slytherin.

I think that's a clue that Snape was actually a Gryffindor at heart (not that I'm bothered by his being in Slytherin, lol). Anyway, the way Scrimgeour puts it, the sword definitely "presents itself" to Snape.

Nice post.

While I think Snape is, in some ways, much more of a Slytherin than he is a Gryffindor, I agree that the sword saw him as brave enough to have been put in that House. I think it definitely was a sign that he was brave.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

I'm not sure I understand the rationale of the scenario you just painted. Why would you (or Snape) assume that Lupin would be agonized when Snape destroyed the map? We don't know what level of emotional attachment Lupin had for the map (and neither did Snape). And once the map was gone, how could Lupin be sure exactly what Snape had confiscated or destroyed, since he wouldn't have seen it?

At that point, Snape didn't know exactly what he had confiscated or what the map was, so why would he think it would agonize Lupin? By confronting Lupin, he could try to pump him for information. If had destroyed the map he could never find out exactly what it was. I think it's a lot easier to assume that Snape called Lupin so he could find out more about what the parchment was. Once, Lupin was there, Snape proceeded to needle him, which is what he seemed to do every time he was with one of the surviving Marauders (as evidenced by him taunting Sirius about not contributing to the Order).

Lupin deftly took the map away from Snape before he could keep it and examine it further. I don't see how Snape intended Harry to have the map. Snape didn't even know it was a map or how it worked at that point. Why would he want Harry to have it?

As was pointed out in a quote from the book; Snape believed it could possibly be instructions to Hogsmeade by passing the dementors. That is right in line with his believing that the map was given to Harry by Lupin via Black, imo.

In my judgment, that was Snape's entire point. Black and Lupin were in collusion and had given Harry this parchment. In some way that would allow Black to get to Harry and kill him. Snape had no definitive proof, and he wanted the map to serve as proof if possible. That supports everything he says in the scene to me. Snape didn't willingly hand over the map to Lupin; Lupin deftly got it from him and in the wake of everyone saying that it was from the Joke shop, there was little that Snape could do to either get it back or try to say it was dark and thus he had to have it.

JKR couldn't let Snape have the map and either destroy it or give it back to filch because she needed for Lupin to have it to find the trio and Snape to see it on his desk to find them too. So the way it played out was the way it had to go in terms of the story in my view.

In my opinion, Snape loathed Harry, just as JKR indicated and he took every opportunity to needle him, especially when it came to his sore spot of losing his parents. Snape would not have thought of the map as a "keepsake" in my view, he just saw it as something that the Marauders had had and that had gotten into Harry's hands via Black and Lupin. If he could have kept it, he would have, but I feel he couldn't under the circumstances. My impression was that he ruined his own plan in that regard when he called Lupin and had it taken from him.

How would he know the map was important? He didn't know it was a map. At that point it was just an insulting piece of parchment. He didn't give it to Lupin. Lupin took it from him.

Snape thought it was important only because he thought Lupin/Black had given it to Harry. In my view, if Snape had even considered the idea that it might mean more to Harry because his father had had a part in creating it, he would have instantly destroyed it for that reason alone. I feel that way because he had just insulted Harry's father, belittling him before the child to such a great degree and in such a nasty fashion that the child had actually flown out of character and told a professor (Snape) to "SHUT UP!" (POA). So it is obvious to me that Snape could not have cared less about Harry's relationship with his father; he was only bent on destroying it (in terms of Harry's thoughts about him).

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I know we have talked about the fact that Snape carried the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry and put it where he could find it (and no, I don't think he was trying to drown the kid in the pool).

But today, I came across this line from Scrimgeour, when Dumbledore tries to leave Harry the Sword of Gryffindor in his Last Will and Testament, Chapter 7.

"According to reliable historical sources, the sword may present itself to any worthy Gryffindor," said Scrimgeour. "That does not make it the exclusive property of Mr. Potter, whatever Dumbledore may have decided."

OK, so that obviously sets up the fact that Ron uses the sword to destroy the horcrux, and Neville kills the snake, but it also confirms Dumbledore's and Harry's view of Snape as "the bravest man" and "sorted too soon" into Slytherin.

I think that's a clue that Snape was actually a Gryffindor at heart (not that I'm bothered by his being in Slytherin, lol). Anyway, the way Scrimgeour puts it, the sword definitely "presents itself" to Snape.

In my view, the sword did not "present itself" to Snape. I feel that is what it does for someone to actually use it. The sword can be delivered to a Gryffindor in need by anyone (or any means) I believe and all Snape did was carry it to Harry. Snape didn't have the purpose of attempting to use it, nor did he try; if he had, then it would have had to "present itself" to him for use. In my opinion, Snape wanted nothing to do with the Gryffindor sword and his anti-Gryffindor sentiments came through to the sword so it knew that he was merely being a deliverer.

Also, I reject the idea that just because people show 'bravery' they must pertain to Gryffindor. Narcissa showed immense bravery in the forest; Luna showed great bravery a lot of the time; Cedric showed incredible bravery akin to any Gryffindor's. These people did not all pertain to Gryffindor. Slytherin house was great - it had a lot of great people in it with their own strengths and weaknesses. Snape was a Slytherin and nothing changes that, nor do I feel he was a Gryffindor at heart in the least little bit. In my opinion it is absolutely a put down of Slytherin house (my favorite) to ascribe people to other houses when they do something good, brave or right - and otherwise indicate they are suited to Slytherin only when they act cowardly, evil, badly or poorly - or for selfish reasons. Slytherins are ALL of these things, they can be good and bad, but it does not mean they become UnSlytherin when they do something readers like. Slytherin was a great house, its characters very ambiguous in nature, that includes Snape and many others and in my opinion, all of them would turn up their noses at the suggestion that they should be placed elsewhere - or that they pertained to some other house at heart - and I feel their pain. . Dumbledore's "we may sort too soon" statement just angers me; it was likely the greatest cut made to Slytherin house in the series and I found it unforgivable. No, all people who act bravely don't belong to your house Dumbledore!! Indeed Salazar I doubt forgave him either and Snape shouldn't have; in my view, Snape carried the sword with gloves on, laced with repellant, not wanting to touch the sword - what self-respecting Slytherin would want to do so?

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

In my view, if Snape had even considered the idea that it might mean more to Harry because his father had had a part in creating it, he would have instantly destroyed it for that reason alone.

I honestly don't think we ever see a situation in canon where we see Snape acting with such malice towards Harry. I know you will disagree with this but the worst Snape ever does is insult James verbally to Harry's face. And, no, I'm not justifying that at all: it was very wrong of him to do that, and very hurtful. Snape is still bitter, and his bitterness causes him to act wrongly towards Harry -- I don't deny that. I just don't think he would ever have gone as far as you suggest, i.e. actively destroy something that James had created. He might have snarked mightily, but let Harry keep it (if, that is, he wasn't suspicious of what the Map might do, of course ... which is the point.)

My reason for thinking this is because of Occlumency in OotP. When Snape sees how awful Harry's childhood is, he never once flings that in Harry's face or uses it to taunt the boy. (And by heck, he could have done so, if he had wanted to.) I found that significant on first reading, and I still do.

Snape is a bitter man, but he has his limits, IMO.

I feel that way because he had just insulted Harry's father, belittling him before the child to such a great degree and in such a nasty fashion that the child had actually flown out of character and told a professor (Snape) to "SHUT UP!" (POA). So it is obvious to me that Snape could not have cared less about Harry's relationship with his father; he was only bent on destroying it (in terms of Harry's thoughts about him).

Again, I must stress that I find Snape's behaviour inappropriate in this scene, to say the least. It was very wrong of him to speak of James in such terms to Harry and I won't justify his doing so.

But I am not convinced that he was 'bent on destroying' Harry's thoughts about his father. I think that Snape saw James's faults (or what he saw as James' faults) magnified in Harry and sought to correct them. I don't deny that his methodology in doing so could be pretty ... dreadful.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Slytherin house was great - it had a lot of great people in it with their own strengths and weaknesses. Snape was a Slytherin and nothing changes that, nor do I feel he was a Gryffindor at heart in the least little bit. In my opinion it is absolutely a put down of Slytherin house (my favorite) to ascribe people to other houses when they do something good, brave or right - and otherwise indicate they are suited to Slytherin only when they act cowardly, evil, badly or poorly - or for selfish reasons. Slytherins are ALL of these things, they can be good and bad, but it does not mean they become UnSlytherin when they do something readers like. Slytherin was a great house, its characters very ambiguous in nature, that includes Snape and many others and in my opinion, all of them would turn up their noses at the suggestion that they should be placed elsewhere - or that they pertained to some other house at heart - and I feel their pain. . Dumbledore's "we may sort too soon" statement just angers me; it was likely the greatest cut made to Slytherin house in the series and I found it unforgivable. No, all people who act bravely don't belong to your house Dumbledore!! Indeed Salazar I doubt forgave him either and Snape shouldn't have.

Preach it, brother, preach the virtues of Slytherin! I agree with you. Dumbledore's casual remark annoys me intensely. : No wonder Snape looked stricken.

in my view, Snape carried the sword with gloves on, laced with repellant, not wanting to touch the sword - what self-respecting Slytherin would want to do so?

Now, steady on. There's no textual evidence to assert this.

And that was a nice post by Silver Ink Pot.

Questions of House affiliation aside, I'm with her that Snape's plan to get the sword to Harry was exceedingly cool.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I agree with you. Dumbledore's casual remark annoys me intensely. : No wonder Snape looked stricken.

The only way I can agree with that statement is to decide Albus meant himself.

Now, steady on. There's no textual evidence to assert this.

Unless we posit that Headmaster Snape habitually wore specially treated gloves just in case he might have to someday handle the sword...there is evidence against it. He has no advance warning when he takes the sword from its hiding place, swings on his travelling cloak, and heads for the Forest of Dean.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I honestly don't think we ever see a situation in canon where we see Snape acting with such malice towards Harry. I know you will disagree with this but the worst Snape ever does is insult James verbally to Harry's face. And, no, I'm not justifying that at all: it was very wrong of him to do that, and very hurtful. Snape is still bitter, and his bitterness causes him to act wrongly towards Harry -- I don't deny that. I just don't think he would ever have gone as far as you suggest, i.e. actively destroy something that James had created. He might have snarked mightily, but let Harry keep it (if, that is, he wasn't suspicious of what the Map might do, of course ... which is the point.)

You say the "worst" Snape ever does is insult James verbally to Harry's face. And I get the impression that you feel there is worse than that. I would disagree, so that may be why we see this differently. So "as far as I suggest" has already been achieved by Snape in my view - there is simply nothing worse. That is why all of the other stuff like destroying Harry's valuable keepsakes (the 1/2 picture and 1/2 letter) is also terrible, but to me, not as hurtful and despicable as taunting and belittling James to Harry's face - and worse - in a comparative manner.

My reason for thinking this is because of Occlumency in OotP. When Snape sees how awful Harry's childhood is, he never once flings that in Harry's face or uses it to taunt the boy. (And by heck, he could have done so, if he had wanted to.) I found that significant on first reading, and I still do.

This has absolutely nothing to do with James, so I am missing the connection you are trying to make. This would have been an action taken solely against Harry.

Snape is a bitter man, but he has his limits, IMO.

He surpassed all limits to me and I think that is where we don't see eye to eye. I respect your view, but when it comes to Snape's disrespect for Harry's dead family, who he helped to kill, (including Harry and his feelings) I cannot be swayed in my view. To me that is the absolute worst thing Snape could have done and he did it.

But I am not convinced that he was 'bent on destroying' Harry's thoughts about his father. I think that Snape saw James's faults (or what he saw as James' faults) magnified in Harry and sought to correct them. I don't deny that his methodology in doing so could be pretty ... dreadful.

I would respectfully disagree. Not only did Snape belittle James, but always comparatively, attacking Harry's self-esteem also. Harry never changed which is a testament to his fortitude and his belief that Snape was only being hurtful. He never even considered that Snape's assessment of him might be correct. Even when he doubted his father he thought "all those things Snape said about my father were true" - not himself . Of course not, because Harry knew himself, but he didn't know his father. Later he saw that his father was indeed much like him and that Snape saw them both the same way - it just hadn't dawned on him in that moment because he'd seen and disliked SWM not understanding much and disliking his dad starting things for seemingly no reason. He is left thinking, Snape is wrong about me, but right about my dad (hence having destroyed Harry's feelings about his dad as he wished because Harry now had all this trash in his head when he saw the scene instead of seeing it objectively). No man of honor would have ever done such a thing, imo, but Snape did.

Harry had to come to terms with that on his own. Yes, Snape saw him wrongly, but he also saw his dad wrongly (Harry was young, but eventually he would understand that if Snape saw he and his father as the same, based solely on outward behavior and attitude, he was likely misreading them both). Note in misreading James and Harry, Snape was doubly wrongful in doing so because in reality, they were a like in many ways, but not a like in others.

An example, (two of many) of Snape's POV, imo: Snape saw both of them as arrogant (and they were, only Harry less), but he only saw it as bad, when arrogance is indeed a positive trait at times. Another taunt was they were both 'rule breaking' and they were, but again, at times it is done for a good reason (break open the CoS, keep Remus company). So Snape took a totally negative view and spun his stuff, intending to destroy the image Harry had of his father and at the same time, shoot down Harry's self-esteem, imo.

To say Snape did it for benevolent reasons does not fit, imo, because he loathed Harry and did not wish to help mold him into a wonderful person, that was never Snape's goal - in my view, the less he had to do with Harry Potter, the better he felt about it. Snape never offered helpful advice - not one single time to my memory. He never tried to actually correct Harry's behavior - he only threw out belittling taunts about both him and his father to hurt Harry in the two ways I indicated. That is my interpretation because a person really trying to help would have behaved disinctly - pointing out the good in James (who he knew Harry held in esteem) as well as the bad, indicating that Harry could learn from that and emulate the good and supress the bad. Harping on negative points, some of them clear lies ("a little bit of talent in Quidditch") is not setting out to be helpful, in my judgment. Remus did this correctly in my view, so it can be done. He told Harry many positive ways he was like his dad, but also pointed out negatives, twice, comparatively - once it even upset Harry, but he never was left to believe his father was a despicable person or should be thought of as such - and that is the primary difference, isn't it?

Preach it, brother, preach the virtues of Slytherin! I agree with you. Dumbledore's casual remark annoys me intensely. : No wonder Snape looked stricken.

. That just turned me off a lot. I love Slytherin house.

Now, steady on. There's no textual evidence to assert this.

Well that is why I said "in my view". I made it up.

And, House affiliation aside, I'm with her that Snape's plan to get the sword to Harry was exceedingly cool.

If that was what she had said in her post, I would not have posted. Silver said that Snape was a Gryffindor at heart. That is what I disagree with - fervently.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

The only way I can agree with that statement is to decide Albus meant himself.

agreed, wholeheartedly.

Unless we posit that Headmaster Snape habitually wore specially treated gloves just in case he might have to someday handle the sword...there is evidence against it. He has no advance warning when he takes the sword from its hiding place, swings on his travelling cloak, and heads for the Forest of Dean.

Slytherins are always prepared for this type of thing. His anti-Gryff gloves were in his inner robe pockets.

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by WWB

My reason for thinking this is because of Occlumency in OotP. When Snape sees how awful Harry's childhood is, he never once flings that in Harry's face or uses it to taunt the boy. (And by heck, he could have done so, if he had wanted to.) I found that significant on first reading, and I still do. This has absolutely nothing to do with James, so I am missing the connection you are trying to make. This would have been an action taken solely against Harry.

It may have nothing to do with James, but it is significant when you look at it as a means to seeing Severus' character. (Which is what the thread is about, anyway)

The fact that Severus doesn't mention it at all, ever, is very telling about his character, imho-- and I don't think you can simply disgregard it because it has nothing to do with James.

Originally Posted by WWB

but he only saw it as bad, when arrogance is indeed a positive trait at times.

I'm sorry, but when would arrogance be considered a good thing? Getting out the dictionary defintion (yes, those unworthy alphabetically arranged tomes ) 'arrogance' is an "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride." And is synonymous with 'haugtiness, insolence, disdain'. Just when could that be considered a positive trait? Perhaps you meant that pride can be a good thing, which it can on occation and within certain limits, but arrogance is definetly carrying a negative connation. There is no way Severus is just 'spinning' that defintion.

Originally Posted by WWB

If that was what she had said in her post, I would not have posted. Silver said that Snape was a Gryffindor at heart. That is what I disagree with - fervently.

I agree. What I really disliked about that passage was JKR's apparent sidenote that Severus as a Slytherin was somehow inferior. But Severus-the-Almost-Gryffindor was automatically elevated up a status or so just by association with the Red and Gold. Bah! I just like to ignore her obvious Gryffindor favoritism-- illustrated doubly by the fact that, somehow, the brightest students end up not in Ravenclaw as logic might have you believe, but in Gryffindor. (I believe JKR stated that Sirius and James were the brightest in their years, as Hermione was supposed to be in hers.) We have no need of Sparklypoo! Gryffindor is the true Mary-Sue House of Hogwarts!

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

It may have nothing to do with James, but it is significant when you look at it as a means to seeing Severus' character. (Which is what the thread is about, anyway)

The fact that Severus doesn't mention it at all, ever, is very telling about his character, imho-- and I don't think you can simply disgregard it because it has nothing to do with James.

I respect your view; but that was not the issue we were discussing. In my judgment it neither adds or detracts support for the point being made that Snape's comments belittling James and Harry were hurtful to Harry or Snape's intent in doing so. Snape never tried to kill Harry while he slept either, but it is similarly irrelevant to the point, imo.

I'm sorry, but when would arrogance be considered a good thing? Getting out the dictionary defintion (yes, those unworthy alphabetically arranged tomes ) 'arrogance' is an "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride." And is synonymous with 'haugtiness, insolence, disdain'. Just when could that be considered a positive trait? Perhaps you meant that pride can be a good thing, which it can on occation and within certain limits, but arrogance is definetly carrying a negative connation. There is no way Severus is just 'spinning' that defintion.

I respect your view; but since Snape lumped pride and arrogance together, imo, the dictionary's definition does not stand in relation to my interpretation of canon. For example, Harry's pride at his Quidditch team winning; at his being able to catch the snitch before Draco; and at his happiness and celebration afterward was seen as 'strutting his stuff' by Snape (he saw James the same way - Harry caught the fact that Snape was speaking about both of them, and defended them both in this regard). Imo, that was simply pride, not arrogance, but Snape lumped the ideas together - and lumped Harry and James together as carrying this ill-defined trait. What hurt Harry was Snape's belittling of them both; what angered Harry was Snape showing disrespect for his dead father - he said : "SHUT UP" - "I told you to shut up about my dad."

Don't get me wrong, they could be arrogant in the traditional sense, but they also had pride - and Snape didn't see any difference (kind of like with Hermione's teeth if you know what I mean) ~ a clear spinning of the truth is a nice way of saying he was lying - which he was in my opinion because he knew he was not being truthful and at best mixing truth with lies, with the sole intent of being hurtful.

I agree. What I really disliked about that passage was JKR's apparent sidenote that Severus as a Slytherin was somehow inferior. But Severus-the-Almost-Gryffindor was automatically elevated up a status or so just by association with the Red and Gold. Bah! I just like to ignore her obvious Gryffindor favoritism-- illustrated doubly by the fact that, somehow, the brightest students end up not in Ravenclaw as logic might have you believe, but in Gryffindor. (I believe JKR stated that Sirius and James were the brightest in their years, as Hermione was supposed to be in hers.) We have no need of Sparklypoo! Gryffindor is the true Mary-Sue House of Hogwarts!

Exactly. It doesn't bother me that the smartest people in their year weren't in Ravenclaw; or the most cunning weren't in Slytherin, or the bravest may not be in Gryffindor one year. I actually didn't construe it as favortism, I just felt people had lots of varied characteristics and could be placed anywhere for a number of reasons. But Dumbledore's comment was beyond that interpretation; I felt it was so highly biased as to be prejudicial and a direct cut laced with 'sour grapes' mentality. JKR was aware of her bias (if it existed); she readily discounted the notion that Slytherin was purely made up of evil no-good wizards on several occassions. So I am not sure if her showings were more in line with her infusing her characters with the bias or speaking her own mind. Noting the characters she chose in those examples, (Dumbledore, Hermione, James, Sirius), I would say a bias was shown on her part, intended or not.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I'm not saying that Snape always hated Harry. Surely we see a progression in Snape's reactions to this boy. I do, anyway. Here's my take on it. In 1981, Snape the young Death Eater has a very callous attitude towards Harry the child and his father: it's only Lily's death he's really bothered about. Dumbledore's sharp reaction of disgust at this pulls him up short a bit (as it should!) Then Snape promises, bleakly, "anything," anything to help mitigate the terrible fact of Lily's death. And he means it, and he sticks to it, throughout the years. This doesn't stop him struggling with dark emotions re: Harry, the son of the woman he loved and the man he hated.

I think at this time Harry was not even on his mind. In that I agree with you. Snape became aware of Harry as a person and not as "Lily's boy, whom Snape was obliged to protect for Lily's sake and for his own mistakes" only when Harry came to Hogwarts. Perhaps Snape may have felt curious a few months before Harry was to start Hogwarts, about the boy who was Lily's IMO.

I wonder if he was shocked to see James Potter there, until he looked into Harry's eyes and saw they were Lily all over again IMO.

I agree with you about Snape not hating Harry at the point of death (whatever the author may say about it, this is not what she shows in the text, IMO).

I don't think that proves that Snape didn't struggle with antipathy towards Harry in earlier stages of the story though

But while I believe passionately in a reader's right to interpret a character in various ways -- and that an author cannot dictate how a reader may respond to a particular character -- I can't get round the fact that Rowling included Snape's antipathy to Harry for a reason.

The author also said that Snape died loathing Harry quite unfairly until he died, and then thought it natural to give the memories Snape had.

Now I am not saying she's right or she's wrong; I'm saying that I cannot see it that way.

Snape loathes, it's not even dislike or irritation or something mild; it's hatred and loathing for a boy and then Snape opens his heart to him. When he's so closed about his feelings.

I think she put in a lot of Harry loathing Snape and even going to the extent of Harry wanting him dead in HBP when Snape became the DADA professor so that she could build up Snape to be this evil git of a guy and then I think she could not turn around and say that Snape and Harry secretly liked each other.

I do think she left clues though, one being the parchment which Snape allowed Lupin to walk away with and did not even punish Harry with a detention, when the said parchment, spoke such rude things about Snape IMO.

Well, the decision to release the memories was a split-second decision, surely, hardly something Severus could have planned months beforehand. Because how could he have known the precise hour of his death? How could he know that Voldemort would cut him off before he had the chance to tell Harry the truth? Severus was dying, and he knew this was his only chance to give Harry crucial information. I see the releasing of those memories as a very deliberate decision but it was also a spontaneous one, not something he planned beforehand (he would never have planned beforehand to give Harry all that stuff about him and Harry's mother! )

It could go either way I think, I used to think almost like you did, but after Klio's post so long ago , I am now divided between the two ideas.

I think Snape probably started thinking of what he would tell Harry and also about how he would go about it, from the time he killed Dumbledore. Also I presume he wanted to tell Harry a lot more than he needed to, perhaps to tell Harry about himself.

He knew he had one meeting for sure with Harry and Snape probably wanted to utilize that for himself as well as to pass the necessary message that Dumbeldore wanted him to IMO.

He probably made a list of memories he wanted to show Harry and when he was attacked and saw Harry, he at once tried to give the memories he had planned to that year. Perhaps there was one memory more or one memory less, but I think Snape got out almost all the memories he had planned to IMO.

To me it's all part of his overall story/character arc. As fellow Snape-fans, I respect the fact that you and I see him a bit differently.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Snape did not know the "insulting parchment" was a map, but this, or a very similar function, was his best guess.

bold mine

Snape's Grudge Harry blinked. Snape's eyes gleamed. "Let me see, let me see..." he muttered, taking out his wand and smoothing the map out on his desk. "Reveal your secret!" he said touching the wand to the parchment. ....."Indeed!" said Snape. His jaw had gone rigid with anger. "You think a joke shop could supply him with such a thing? You don't think it more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?

emphasis in the books itself.

Snape called for Lupin and also seemed to think that Harry got the parchment directly from the manufacturers, makes me feel that Snape was sure that the 4 lines of insults came from the Marauders IMO.

Perhaps he was not aware of all the functions of that parchment, but he seemed to also know that the parchement could be used to get out of Hogwarts bypassing the dementors, and that Lupin was one of the manufacturers, implying that the parchment had more than one manufacturer.

Another thing that may have had some meaning was that Snape was prowling around the one eyed witch. No sooner than Harry came out of the tunnel, than Snape seemed to swoop sown and pick him up IMO.

And I just read that Harry had shouted to Snape to "SHUT UP" and still walked away without a single point being taken away from him.

I do think Snape knew that the parchment was in some way connected to James and he allowed Harry to have it.

[wimblemimble]

Originally Posted by WWB

I respect your view; but that was not the issue we were discussing. In my judgment it neither adds or detracts support for the point being made that Snape's comments belittling James and Harry were hurtful to Harry or Snape's intent in doing so. Snape never tried to kill Harry while he slept either, but it is similarly irrelevant to the point, imo.

I realize it wasn't the issue being discussed, but I still feel that it is an important point that shouldn't be ignored just because it wasn't on topic with that specific point you had mentioned.

As its own seperate point, I feel that it is very important towards his character development and in that respect, should not be ignored.

Originally Posted by WWB

I respect your view; but since Snape lumped pride and arrogance altogether, imo, the dictionary's definition does not stand in relation to my interpretation of canon. For example, Harry's pride at his Quidditch team winning; at his being able to catch the snitch before Draco; and at his happiness and celebration afterward was seen as 'strutting his stuff' by Snape (he saw James the same way - Harry caught the fact that Snape was speaking about both of them, and defended them both in this regard). Imo, that was simply pride, not arrogance, but Snape lumped the ideas together - and lumped Harry and James together as carrying this ill-defined trait.

I agree that Severus may have 'jumped the gun' in many respects as to Harry's 'pride/arrogance', but I can't help but think that Harry-- both due to some unfortunate circumstances and his own actions-- helped to fuel Severus' belief.

By the second year, Harry had already 'proven' this arrogance to Severus by driving the flying car to school. A flashy entrance was clearly not Harry's motive, but there is no reason for Severus to know this. Harry's resemblence to James is, imho, one of the biggest reasons that Severus tries to nip Harry's 'arrogance' in the bud. Anything Harry did, Severus would see as being done by James, which clearly colored the perception of the motives behind the action.

Originally Posted by WWB

Exactly. It doesn't bother me that the smartest people in their year weren't in Ravenclaw; or the most cunning weren't in Slytherin, or the bravest may not be in Gryffindor one year. I actually didn't construe it as favortism, I just felt people had lots of varied characteristics and could be placed anywhere for a number of reasons. But Dumbledore's comment was beyond that interpretation; I felt it was so highly biased as to be prejudicial and a direct cut laced with 'sour grapes' mentality.

For me, it comes down to the fact that JKR seems to be lobbing all the 'good traits' on her beloved Gryffindors. But that is really neither here nor there and is decidedly off topic. >.>

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

I realize it wasn't the issue being discussed, but I still feel that it is an important point that shouldn't be ignored just because it wasn't on topic with that specific point you had mentioned.

As its own seperate point, I feel that it is very important towards his character development and in that respect, should not be ignored.

Well we can discuss that too. . But as an answer to my point, it didn't stand, imo, that is all I meant.

I agree that Severus may have 'jumped the gun' in many respects as to Harry's 'pride/arrogance', but I can't help but think that Harry-- both due to some unfortunate circumstances and his own actions-- helped to fuel Severus' belief.

By the second year, Harry had already 'proven' this arrogance to Severus by driving the flying car to school. A flashy entrance was clearly not Harry's motive, but there is no reason for Severus to know this. Harry's resemblence to James is, imho, one of the biggest reasons that Severus tries to nip Harry's 'arrogance' in the bud. Anything Harry did, Severus would see as being done by James, which clearly colored the perception of the motives behind the action.

As I said, both James and Harry had a flaw of arrogance. But lumping their moments of pride and arrogance together and condemning them for the invented trait is wrongful, imo. It is certainly not helpful in the least, and served to nip nothing in the bud because Harry saw Snape's example as completely wrong. They were not strutting - when you win, you are on cloud nine, not arrogant. In fact, it is exactly the opposite, because if you hold the other team in disdain (they suck) then it lessens your own team's achievement in beating them. If it is known they suck, you still celebrate, but the win doesn't fill you with as much pride, naturally.

To me, JKR was attempting to show that when Snape looked at the actions and behavior of James and Harry, he saw "what he wanted to see" and put his own interpretation on it - generally wrongful. It doesn't mean he was always wrong. But Snape didn't make that distinction when talking to Harry - why? Because in my view, he didn't care, that was not his point - to be helpful - it was only to be hurtful and that is why he did it the way he did. So when Harry really was being arrogant, Snape could point that out - and when he wasn't - he'd point that out and call it arrogant too. It didn't matter, in either case he got to issue his venom and be hurtful. Since we as readers saw exactly one scene of James, we have no idea how he was and can only assume. But if we base Snape's judgment on how he saw Harry, then I would have to conclude he was off the mark in making judgments. The fact that his view of James was laced with dislike and jealousy (when they were kids) does not help support the idea that he was seeing things with a clear, objective and correct view - anymore than he was Harry. You see what I am saying?

To clarify, recall Sirius' description of young Snape: 'an oddball, up to his ears in the dark arts'. Do you think that is a correct view of young Snape in the entirety of his character? I don't. But Sirius looked at Snape with dislike and 'saw what he wanted to see' and that is the description we got. In the case of Snape, we have more scenes to help judge that statement as well as other facets of young Snape that Sirius didn't meniton. We don't have that luxury with James - but we do when it comes to Harry, and yes in ways they were a like, so we can get a little bit of an idea how James might have behaved and spoken and how Snape would have seen it. Snape may have been able to call James "arrogant" in truth, more frequently than he could Harry - but it doesn't change the fact that he'd construe their "pride" as arrogance (and do the same with other attributes) and freuqently misjudge both of their characters based on his dislike and jealousy of them.

[wimblemimble]

As I said, both James and Harry had a flaw of arrogance. But lumping their moments of pride and arrogance together and condemning them for the invented trait is wrongful, imo. It is certainly not helpful in the least, and served to nip nothing in the bud because Harry saw Snape's example as completely wrong. They were not strutting - when you win, you are on cloud nine, not arrogant. In fact, it is exactly the opposite, because if you hold the other team in disdain (they suck) then it lessens your own team's achievement in beating them. If it is known they suck, you still celebrate, but the win doesn't fill you with as much pride, naturally.

To me, JKR was attempting to show that when Snape looked at the actions and behavior of James and Harry, he saw "what he wanted to see" and put his own interpretation on it - generally wrongful.

I think this is actually my point, that Severus blinded himself in regards to Harry because of his great dislike of James. I've always said that Severus' inability to 'forgive and forget' becomes both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

While he doesn't forgive others, leading towards his weakness, he also refuses to forgive himself, which forces him to work hard well past what any ordinary person may see as an atonement for his past actions and continue trying to make up for what he has done. I'm not sure that Severus would ever be able to say that he's finally made up for his past actions-- it is something he holds against himself.

[ignisia]

Well, in James at least, the trait of arrogance is not "invented". We see it quite a lot. Harry, on the other hand, is a different story.

Originally Posted by wwb

To me, JKR was attempting to show that when Snape looked at the actions and behavior of James and Harry, he saw "what he wanted to see" and put his own interpretation on it - generally wrongful.

Funnily enough, I do agree with you on this-- for Harry.
We follow Harry throughout the series and see his motivations for everything he does. And he does a lot of rulebreaking. But Snape's not a reader. He has no idea what Harry's thinking, and as he's predisposed to think Harry is like James, he is going to think Harry does what he does for the same reasons James would do those things. I think that explains a lot of his behavior, from his picking at Harry's celebrity status in book 1 to having Harry sort the detention cards in book 6. All those punishments and barbs designed for one thing-- to squash the James-like traits out of Harry. And it is as much folly as Petunia trying to squash the magic out of Harry.


wimble- On the subject of Snape's inability to forgive, I think sometimes it's better for Snape not to forgive than to just throw out gratuitous forgiveness. But I agree that sometimes the inability to forgive himself was helpful in doing his duty.

[silver ink pot]

Now, steady on. There's no textual evidence to assert this.

No there isn't. The books says, and I quote:

“Good. Very good!” cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster’s
chair. “Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken
under conditions of need and valor—and he must not know that you give it! If
Voldemort should read Harry’s mind and see you acting for him—”

"I know," said Snape curtly. He approached the portrait of Dumbledore and pulled at its side. It swung forward, revealing a hidden cavity behind it from which he took the sword of Gryffindor.

No gloves!

Originally Posted by Pearl Took

And that was a nice post by Silver Ink Pot.

Thank you, Pearl!

Originally Posted by Pearl Took

Questions of House affiliation aside, I'm with her that Snape's plan to get the sword to Harry was exceedingly cool.

I agree.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

No there isn't. The books says, and I quote:

“Good. Very good!” cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster’s
chair. “Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken
under conditions of need and valor—and he must not know that you give it! If
Voldemort should read Harry’s mind and see you acting for him—”

"I know," said Snape curtly. He approached the portrait of Dumbledore and pulled at its side. It swung forward, revealing a hidden cavity behind it from which he took the sword of Gryffindor.

No gloves!

You forget who our narrator was; Harry Potter - from a long line of Proud Gryffindor Potters. He was apparently too insulted to mention seeing Snape pull out his gloves before picking up the sword with distaste. Go Slytherins!

Originally Posted by ignisia

Well, in James at least, the trait of arrogance is not "invented". We see it quite a lot. Harry, on the other hand, is a different story.

I did not say that Snape was always wrong; I merely said that he didn't differentiate between "proud" and "arrogant" or "rule breaking" and "good deed that included rule breaking". Snape's opinion was jaded by his dislike and jealousy in my judgment and so it could not be trusted with respect to either James or Harry. If it pleases you to think James was arrogant every second of every day of his life, that is fine; my point wasn't to determine whether that might be true or not, only to say that I wouldn't take Snape's word for it under the circumstances.

Funnily enough, I do agree with you on this-- for Harry.
We follow Harry throughout the series and see his motivations for everything he does. And he does a lot of rulebreaking. But Snape's not a reader. He has no idea what Harry's thinking, and as he's predisposed to think Harry is like James, he is going to think Harry does what he does for the same reasons James would do those things. I think that explains a lot of his behavior, from his picking at Harry's celebrity status in book 1 to having Harry sort the detention cards in book 6. All those punishments and barbs designed for one thing-- to squash the James-like traits out of Harry. And it is as much folly as Petunia trying to squash the magic out of Harry.

But that was my whole point; Snape watched James just as he did Harry. They were not friends, they did not have intellectual conversations or discuss their plans together. Snape could no more read James' mind than Harry's. So he saw them doing something similar (celebrating a win for instance) and they are both smiling, high fiving their buddies, getting the congratulations of others and walking with a happy step back to the common room for the celebration. They are 'strutting' with arrogance in Snape's view and he is not only wrong about Harry (we know for certain), but was likely just as wrong about James. We can be fairly certain he didn't go up and congratulate James, so he watched from afar just as he did with Harry - so that is how my opinion on the matter was formed. In light of that, he misjudged them both, imo, because he never approached Harry either to hear and see what was truly going on and what type of responses Harry made - nor did he converse with him to understand what he was thinking or feeling. And yet he judged.

The importance of this analysis to me is understanding how deep Snape's behavior ran. It wasn't as if he could possibly be correct about his judgments of James because they were not friends, did not talk and only fought (and don't get me wrong, the converse is true also). Reasonably, he could not make character judgments with any merit about James - in the same way he could not make them about Harry and for the same reasons. From afar, some things are evident; while fighting, some things are evident; interaction in the classroom, still more things are evident. But the types of things Snape accused both father and son of require knowing them better to make a full blown, reasoned character judgment, imo. Snape could not possibly have done that with James nor did he do that with Harry, imo.

As it turns out, James and Harry were a like in ways, so Snape was partially right - some of the time. JKR gave us numerous examples this was true; 'you are too trusting like your father'; 'you call me normal like your dad' (Remus); "your father would have done the exact same thing" (Hagrid); "Your father would have acted the same re: Peter"; "you found your dad in yourself" (Dumbledore), 'so like his father' (Kingsley); "you fly as well as your father did" (Sirius) - to name a few. So it is not like Snape was being delusional in the comparison, in my judgment. James and Harry did both break rules, they did both act with arrogance, impertinence, etc., at times, and in differing degrees and even thought and behaved similarly at times; but as we saw with Harry, Snape didn't always call stuff correctly because he simply did not have all of the facts, and he had no desire to get them, imo. That is, Snape knew he was putting the worst slant on everything with respect to both of them, in my judgment. That to me says that Snape was not attempting to be helpful - his only desire was to be hurtful.

Another reason I don't like the "helpful Snape" interpretation is because it appears to me as if it is a justification for Snape's deeply wrongful behavior in disrespecting the dead and doing so before his orphan child. It is one thing to speak of a person's good points and bad points, and do it in a constructive way. But Snape only harped on bad points, including lies (i.e., "a little talent in Quidditch") and was not at all constructive about it, imo. He spoke in a very vindictive manner when he said these things, imo, and he knew full well he was being hurtful because of Harry's initial reaction (POA); it was as if that was all Snape needed to know - this behavior hurt Harry to the quick - and that propelled him to continue doing it. I honestly believe this was the worst behavior that Snape displayed in the series (while on the good side), so perhaps that helps explain why I don't respond favorably to justifications that move to excuse what I feel was Snape behaving in a despicable manner when he did this.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

You say the "worst" Snape ever does is insult James verbally to Harry's face. And I get the impression that you feel there is worse than that. I would disagree, so that may be why we see this differently. So "as far as I suggest" has already been achieved by Snape in my view - there is simply nothing worse. That is why all of the other stuff like destroying Harry's valuable keepsakes (the 1/2 picture and 1/2 letter) is also terrible, but to me, not as hurtful and despicable as taunting and belittling James to Harry's face - and worse - in a comparative manner.

I am a little confused. The "worst" I was referring to was Snape's behaviour as a school teacher towards Harry. I would not say that was the worst thing Snape ever did (we don't know what crimes he may have committed whilst he was a Death Eater, and of course there is that little matter of his indirect involvement in the murders of James and Lily) but I do think it is pretty bad.

Slytherins are always prepared for this type of thing. His anti-Gryff gloves were in his inner robe pockets.

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

Gryffindor is the true Mary-Sue House of Hogwarts!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

You forget who our narrator was; Harry Potter - from a long line of Proud Gryffindor Potters. He was apparently too insulted to mention seeing Snape pull out his gloves before picking up the sword with distaste. Go Slytherins!

I did not say that Snape was always wrong; I merely said that he didn't differentiate between "proud" and "arrogant" or "rule breaking" and "good deed that included rule breaking". Snape's opinion was jaded by his dislike and jealousy in my judgment and so it could not be trusted with respect to either James or Harry. If it pleases you to think James was arrogant every second of every day of his life, that is fine; my point wasn't to determine whether that might be true or not, only to say that I wouldn't take Snape's word for it under the circumstances.

For me, there are several things going on here: Snape's opinion of James was not totally without cause (I do think the father was more arrogant than the son, actually), but I also think he should have moved on from that old bitterness (especially as James's death was partly his fault!) And I agree that his opinion of Harry was jaded by dislike and jealousy and that he projected his ancient hatred of James onto Harry and was wrong to do so.

Another reason I don't like the "helpful Snape" interpretation is because it appears to me as if it is a justification for Snape's deeply wrongful behavior in disrespecting the dead and doing so before his orphan child. It is one thing to speak of a person's good points and bad points, and do it in a constructive way. But Snape only harped on bad points, including lies (i.e., "a little talent in Quidditch") and was not at all constructive about it, imo. He spoke in a very vindictive manner when he said these things, imo, and he knew full well he was being hurtful because of Harry's initial reaction (POA); it was as if that was all Snape needed to know - this behavior hurt Harry to the quick - and that propelled him to continue doing it. I honestly believe this was the worst behavior that Snape displayed in the series (while on the good side), so perhaps that helps explain why I don't respond favorably to justifications that move to excuse what I feel was Snape behaving in a despicable manner when he did this.

I don't think it's so much a case of people excusing Snape's behaviour to Harry (which I for one would never justify) as trying to understand the guy ... especially in the light of how JKR writes him overall (and why Harry would have thought of honouring him).

But there is never going to be universal agreement in the fandom over this.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I am a little confused. The "worst" I was referring to was Snape's behaviour as a school teacher towards Harry. I would not say that was the worst thing Snape ever did (we don't know what crimes he may have committed whilst he was a Death Eater, and of course there is that little matter of his indirect involvement in the murders of James and Lily) but I do think it is pretty bad.

I referred only to Snape's treatment of Harry. I agree with you and was not referring to his time as a death eater. And I do feel that some of Snape's other treatment of Harry could be seen as equally negative in nature; however, this was done repeatedly which heightened the detriment, imo.

For me, there are several things going on here: Snape's opinion of James was not totally without cause (I do think the father was more arrogant than the son, actually), but I also think he should have moved on from that old bitterness (especially as James's death was partly his fault!) And I agree that his opinion of Harry was jaded by dislike and jealousy and that he projected his ancient hatred of James onto Harry and was wrong to do so.

In my view, Snape's opinion of Harry was not totally without cause either. Sure Harry could be arrogant and impertinent ("You don't have to call me Sir" and "why don't you ask Hermione, she seems to know the answer"). Sure Harry broke rules, etc., and I agree with you, the same was the case for James. But that had nothing to do with Snape's manner of delivery or his intent, imo.

In my view, Snape was not attempting to be helpful, only hurtful. Further, I feel that his projected feelings about James were misjudged as well as his view of Harry. This is not a straight forward transfer of feelings, imo. It is a transfer of feelings that are based on his wrongful judgment of James based on his dislike and jealousy of him at the time, combined with outright lies. I will demonstrate with this scene from POA (Snape's Grudge):

POA Snape's Grudge "How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter,' Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too, was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch pitch made him think he was a cut above the rest of us, too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers...the resemblance between you is uncanny."

Snape continues after Harry protested:

POA Snape's Grudge "Your father didn't set much store by rules, either,' Snape went on, pressing his advantage, his thin face full of maice. "Rules were for lesser mortals not Quidditch Cup-Winners. His head was so swollen-' (Harry cuts him off, "SHUT UP", etc.)

When I read that I note first of all that Snape lied outright. James was very talented and Harry knew this - readers too - as Harry already had solid proof what with having seen his father's name in the trophy room. Later of course it is reaffirmed by many who see Harry playing Quidditch and comment on his father's equally good ability, but at this point we already knew it was a lie because of the trophy. Second, Snape says that Harry also had a small amount of Quidditch talent - another lie - which we all knew as readers was untrue. Then he said both father and son strutted about, believing themselves to be a cut above the rest. Well I didn't feel that Harry did that at all, however, I could see that Snape looking from afar would see Harry surrounded by his friends, being congratulated and later always with Ron and Hermione, so Snape puts the worst spin on that and comes up with his view. That is the most he would have seen of James as well as they were not friends, so Snape would look on from afar and make a similar judgment. Knowing James was more arrogant than Harry at times does not automatically mean that Snape's comment is valid; indeed, logically, Snape would have only as much information as he had about Harry when it came to James in the same situation - so I believe he misjudged that also - placing the worst spin possible on the behavior. So in my view, Snape's words were a combination of misjudgment and lies about both father and son. (Note the title of the chapter)

As to intent, to me JKR made it fairly evident in the second quote. She notes he is "pressing his advantage" and that his "thin face [was] full of malice". Note Snape doesn't correct his lie; he merely states Gryffindor won the cup, but retaining his former statement as if James 'little talent' contributed nothing to that. Harry's talent had not resulted in a name on a trophy cup, but as readers we knew he was talented. So when you combine the lies, the misjudgments and the character notes I highlighted at the beginning of this paragraph, to me, Snape's intent was clear: to be hurtful to Harry.

As to proper behavior, I stand by my judgment that it is wrongful and of the lowest behavior to belittle a dead man's son before his orphan child ~ especially if you had a hand in killing that man. It shows disrespect for the dead, imo; disrespect for the son's feelings; and here, it showed Snape behaving in a very small and despicable manner to me. He repeated this behavior in other scenes and books and I feel it was very wrongful.

I don't think it's so much a case of people excusing Snape's behaviour to Harry (which I for one would never justify) as trying to understand the guy ... especially in the light of how JKR writes him overall (and why Harry would have thought of honouring him).

I seek understanding too and I feel I have expressed my understanding above. I simply fervently disagree with the idea that Snape was attempting to be helpful and I believe JKR showed that clearly when she wrote in the "malice" and "pressing his advantage" statements. Understand that my focus remains on the destruction that Snape is attempting on Harry's view of his father as well as his own self-esteem.

I do not buy the argument that Snape's behavior did any good for Harry. Snape was the only person in the entire wizard world to speak this way (other than Voldemort and Bella) - so there is no support for that idea, imo, because if it was a good idea, others would have done it. After all, nearly every adult he met spoke about his father to him or in front of him, and no one else spoke in the manner Snape did, with malice and pressing their advantage in what was to Harry, a hurtful manner (based on his response). As I pointed out, Remus and Sirius told Harry negative things too, but Harry never told them to Shut up, nor was he left feeling like they were trying to convince him his father (and he) were despicable individuals based on their characters; nor did they only tell him negative things; nor did they set out to hurt, imo.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

In my view, Snape's opinion of Harry was not totally without cause either.

Agree.

But that had nothing to do with Snape's manner of delivery or his intent, imo.

Also agree.

In my view, Snape was not attempting to be helpful, only hurtful. Further, I feel that his projected feelings about James were misjudged as well as his view of Harry. This is not a straight forward transfer of feelings, imo. It is a transfer of feelings that are based on his wrongful judgment of James based on his dislike and jealousy of him at the time, combined with outright lies.

I've never disputed any of this, so I am not sure why you address this specifically to me. Unless you are making a general point for the discussion in this thread, of course.

As to proper behavior, I stand by my judgment that it is wrongful and of the lowest behavior to belittle a dead man's son before his orphan child ~ especially if you had a hand in killing that man. It shows disrespect for the dead, imo; disrespect for the son's feelings; and here, it showed Snape behaving in a very small and despicable manner to me. He repeated this behavior in other scenes and books and I feel it was very wrongful.

Well, again, no disagreement from me at all on this one: it is precisely why I hated Snape as a character right up to PoA.

But while I hated him, I also found him fascinating, as it was obvious (to me) that JKR was going to develop this character in ways I personally could not foresee. This impression was confirmed by me by the end of GoF, when it transpired that Snape had been a former Death Eater, now working for Dumbledore. There had to be a rock-solid reason for DD's trust in Snape, this was his constant mantra, and I kept that in mind during and after reading HBP.

The execution of Snape's overall character arc might be a little lacking, but for me (at any rate) she got there in the end.

I do not buy the argument that Snape's behavior did any good for Harry.

Again, I've never claimed that it was. As I have said repeatedly, this is one area of his character that I can't (and won't) defend.

I do believe however that he worked overall for Harry's protection, however short of the mark his own personal interaction with Harry fell.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I've never disputed any of this, so I am not sure why you address this specifically to me. Unless you are making a general point for the discussion in this thread, of course.

Ah, then I guess I was speaking to the general points raised.

The execution of Snape's overall character arc might be a little lacking, but for me (at any rate) she got there in the end.

I felt there were problems with Snape's overall arc, if that is what you mean. To be honest with you, I really wish she had left the whole belittling thing right out of the story - and actually some other things. In my judgment it took things to far in light of what she was ultimately attempting to achieve with his character (although I am still trying to work that out too. .)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does anyone have any idea why Voldemort asked Snape in "Dark Lord Ascending - DH Chapter 1":

"Do you recognize our guest, Severus?"

He was speaking about Charity Burbage, and of course as they worked together Snape would recognize her. I read that and it suddenly seemed utterly meaningless for Voldemort to have asked that. Snape merely answers "Ah yes". And then Voldemort goes on to speak with Draco. Why do you think he bothered to ask Snape at all in that moment? Was Snape's response meaningful in some way?