Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Raelis

I don't understand where this idea of Snape's wanting to "exchange" someone for Lily comes from. How could he exchange Lily for Harry if Voldemort already knew about Harry and was going to kill him anayway? I have a hard time imagining Snape just coming up to Voldie and saying - "You know, I think I'll let you kill the boy, but only if you get me his mommy gift-wrapped instead". His life would have lasted for about two seconds after such a claim (one second for Avada, another for Kedavra ).

I feel JKR meant for Dumbledore's words to be taken in the broad view. I agree Snape would never propose an actual "exchange" with Voldemort. . But the idea is that Snape had taken the prophecy to Voldemort and he had that "good deed" in his pocket. So he could request "payment" by asking him to spare Lily. So in other words, he would exchange the information about Harry for the sparing of the mother as his reward. We do not know if Voldemort indicated that Snape would be rewarded - but if not, Snape was proposing a reward of his own. So that is the sense in which I feel "exchange" is being used here.

[mexicant]

Hello again.

I see some wonderful discussion of Albus going on here...perhaps we could move it to one of these threads instead? Albus Dumbledore Character Analysis v2 or Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis
Let's keep this solely about Severus Snape, yes?

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...()...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Raelis

I don't think it's the same with Harry. Snape should have kept opinion on his arrogance, impertinence, etc. to himself, but he was right to critisise Harry for breaking rules and being a slack and lazy student. His comments in this case were not exaggerated. He was not right in singling Harry out, of course.

I don't recall Snape accusing Harry of being slack and lazy to his face. However, his comments about rule breaking were off the mark and he knew it, imo. That pertained to his meeting with the troll, the chamber of secrets, etc., and is hardly traditional rule breaking. The petty rule breaking such as hex wars with Draco and sneaking to Hogsmeade were worthy of sanction, but not to the extent or with the aggression Snape used to stricture Harry, imo. His method is what is in question, imo, because bullying the child is not the correct way of going about stricture even when due. Derrogatory comparisons with his beloved father who had been killed were over the line, imo.

I agree with this, but still, there's something... disconcerting about parents beaming with smiles while their only son is walking to his death. (Even if they somehow knew that he'd get a chance to live, how could they know that Voldemort would not want to torture Harry brutally before killing him?)

Unlike Snape - Harry's ghostly parents apparently knew "everything" - absolutely everything, imo. Harry did not tell them what he was doing or where he was going - he did not tell them the news he had gotten from Dumbledore - that he was a horcrux and had to die. He did not tell them that he was planning to walk into the forest and allow Voldemort to kill him. They knew all of this. How? And if they knew all of that, it stands to reason that they knew everything - not just specific items that readers can pick and chose for them to know because that would make no sense, imo.

"Does it hurt?" Harry asks out of the blue. Sirius answers about Death. "I didn't mean for you to die - any of you". Lupin's response gets to the heart of the matter (leaving his orphan child). His parents were proud and indicated he'd been so brave - and that they would be with him to the end. They smiled their encouragement - James nodding for his son to move forward and confront - with his wand tucked in his robe - and not to fight. Why? That James wished his son to be killed without a fight for his personal amusement could not be the canon based answer knowing what we do of his parents. His mother smiled her encouragement as well - would she do that because she was a macabre person who enjoyed watching her relatives killed by dark lords - the very relative she had sacrificed her life for? Per the canon, that makes no sense. Most telling was James telling him that the end was near - or it would soon all be over, something along those lines - and something he could not possibly know unless he had foresight into the future, imo.

Thus, it is reasonable to assume that they knew exactly what the outcome would be - just as they knew all that had already taken place without being told, imo.

This does bear directly on the character of Snape, although some may disagree. But I feel that Snape did not know any of this information - not all that Harry had undergone, nor the fact that he stood a chance of coming out alive. He didn't know about the intracacies of the old protection Harry had and what the consequences of Voldemort taking his blood might be. But with none of this information at his fingertips, Snape still agreed to go along with Dumbledore's plans relative to Harry. Both made a wrongful decision in that regard, imo, and I feel their only fault was non-disclosure until a time when Dumbledore felt it would be right to disclose. This, Dumbledore admitted was a lack of trust on his part and he admitted he'd been wrong in that regard and asked forgiveness for it. Thus, I feel the canon indicates that Dumbledore and Snape's behavior was wrongful. That is the distinction between the ghostly loved ones and Snape, imo, and why I feel it is an important one.

For Dumbledore, it was a matter of preserving Harry's life. However, for Snape, it was a matter of sending the boy to certain death, placing the onus or moral duty on him to reveal what he knew to an even greater extent, imo (as it was a matter of Harry's very survival, life and death). However, I feel his own feelings toward Harry enabled him to follow Dumbledore's instructions without feeling a need to warn Harry of his impending doom.

Originally Posted by mexicant

Hello again.

I see some wonderful discussion of Albus going on here...perhaps we could move it to one of these threads instead? Albus Dumbledore Character Analysis v2 or Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis
Let's keep this solely about Severus Snape, yes?

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...()...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way.

I think that is another respectable way to look at it. However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent.

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by mexicant

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...()...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way.

I think this is a very plausible interpretation! I never thought about it before.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I feel JKR meant for Dumbledore's words to be taken in the broad view. I agree Snape would never propose an actual "exchange" with Voldemort. . But the idea is that Snape had taken the prophecy to Voldemort and he had that "good deed" in his pocket. So he could request "payment" by asking him to spare Lily. So in other words, he would exchange the information about Harry for the sparing of the mother as his reward. We do not know if Voldemort indicated that Snape would be rewarded - but if not, Snape was proposing a reward of his own. So that is the sense in which I feel "exchange" is being used here.

No, he could not exchange information about Harry for Lily, because when he was delivering prophecy he did not know who it was about. Dumbledore knew this.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I don't recall Snape accusing Harry of being slack and lazy to his face.

It doesn't mean if these comments were made to Harry's face or not - they were well-founded, because Harry was prone to breaking rules and was a lazy student. Teachers are entitled to call students out on these things, bring other adults' attention to the problem or express their dissapproval with such behaviour.

However, his comments about rule breaking were off the mark and he knew it, imo.That pertained to his meeting with the troll, the chamber of secrets, etc., and is hardly traditional rule breaking.

I disagree. Harry repeatedly placed his own life and the lives of friends in danger, and Snape knew this. Harry deserved all the dressing-down he got for sneaking off to Hogsmide. It was much more serious than petty rule breaking, because Sirius Black was belived to be out for Harry's blood at the time.

Derrogatory comparisons with his beloved father who had been killed were over the line, imo.

This I agree with.

Harry did not tell them what he was doing or where he was going - he did not tell them the news he had gotten from Dumbledore - that he was a horcrux and had to die. He did not tell them that he was planning to walk into the forest and allow Voldemort to kill him. They knew all of this. How?

Thus, it is reasonable to assume that they knew exactly what the outcome would be - just as they knew all that had already taken place without being told, imo.

Well, I assumed they simply watched Harry and everyone from the sky or wherever they were spending their afterlife. That's how they knew what had happened prior to Harry's walk to death. But there isn't a single hint in the book that they could see the future. Considering all this, I find their reaction very perplexing. The only explanation I have is that, being dead, they probably viewed life in an entirely different way and possibly did not value it as much.

But with none of this information at his fingertips, Snape still agreed to go along with Dumbledore's plans relative to Harry. Both made a wrongful decision in that regard, imo, and I feel their only fault was non-disclosure until a time when Dumbledore felt it would be right to disclose.

How do you suppose Snape should have disclosed this information to Harry? Should he have approached him? I doubt that would have ended well.
When he learnt that Harry was at Hogwarts, he wanted to see him and possibly inform him of everything Harry needed to know, but fighting Minerva and Flitwick the duel champion seemed to put the matter out of his mind for just a bit.

However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent

He is Snape. He would not have ran after Hermione, patted her on the back and said "There, there".

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by mexicant

And as an aside, and completely my own personal opinion and certainly not an attempt at me trying to sway you in any direction...()...when I first read that remark by Severus to Hermione in GoF about her teeth, I honestly thought it meant that the spell was no worse than the one Harry inadvertently cast on Goyle, "whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi." It wasn't until I joined this forum that I realized that scene would be seen in any other way.

Mexicant, thanks so much for that insight!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Thus, I feel the canon indicates that Dumbledore and Snape's behavior was wrongful. That is the distinction between the ghostly loved ones and Snape, imo, and why I feel it is an important one.

I don't perceive any censure from canon for Snape's part in going along with Dumbledore's plan for Harry. Where do we see any indication in canon that his actions in obeying Dumbledore's orders were wrongful?

There is censure for Albus.

And forgiveness, when Harry meets him in the celestial King's Cross and later on, when he goes to Albus's portrait.

For Dumbledore, it was a matter of preserving Harry's life. However, for Snape, it was a matter of sending the boy to certain death, placing the onus or moral duty on him to reveal what he knew to an even greater extent, imo (as it was a matter of Harry's very survival, life and death). However, I feel his own feelings toward Harry enabled him to follow Dumbledore's instructions without feeling a need to warn Harry of his impending doom.

But he knew he had to tell Harry when the time was right. Not before.

I think that is another respectable way to look at it. However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent.

Well, he's SNAPE. He's an insensitive git.

His words may not be always as cruel as we perceive them to be -- and sometimes they are that cruel -- but he is never, ever, going to be a nice, cuddly, fluffy bunny who comforts the children.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I think that is another respectable way to look at it. However, it does lead one to wonder why he subsequently did nothing when the child broke down in tears and ran from the room as a result of 'misunderstanding' him. Imo, if he didn't intend to cause her humiliation and pain with his statement, he would have made that immediately clear when her misunderstanding of his words became apparent.

If Snape meant it as mexicant suggests, as a simple statement of fact about two magical hexes cast on two of his students rather than a slur on Hermione's usual appearance, it is not clear to me how he should have instantly realized that a perfectly reasonable statement by him was misunderstood by her and caused her to run off crying. We have no evidence, other than the very statement the meaning of which we are discussing, to suggest Snape thought there was anything remotely worthy of comment regarding Hermione's teeth in their natural state.

If mexicant is right, then from his point of view, Snape engaged in a discussion with Ron and Harry about what was done to Hermione by Draco and by Harry to Goyle. And then suddenly Hermione ran out of the room in tears. For all we know, he might have attributed her reaction to Ron's insensitivity in exposing the injury Hermione herself had endeavored to hide. Or he might have guessed that Hermione (incorrectly, in his view) believed herself more wronged than Goyle and was reacting to this perceived injustice.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Raelis

No, he could not exchange information about Harry for Lily, because when he was delivering prophecy he did not know who it was about. Dumbledore knew this.

I was referring to his desire to effect the change in the aftermath - as a substitute for any reward Voldemort might have been willing to grant for his service in delivering the prophecy.

It doesn't mean if these comments were made to Harry's face or not - they were well-founded, because Harry was prone to breaking rules and was a lazy student. Teachers are entitled to call students out on these things, bring other adults' attention to the problem or express their dissapproval with such behaviour.

For the legitimate rule breaking (meaning the ones that didn't end up with the destruction of one of Voldemort's horcruxes and enlighten Voldemort as to there being more - or rescuing Hermione from a troll, etc.), Harry did deserve to be called out. However, I still believe that Snape's method in doing so was inappropriate. It matters not if his argument was well founded; he negated any importance contained in his message by and through his conduct in as far as Harry was concerned, imo. Harry was simply disdainful and took nothing Snape said to heart.

I disagree. Harry repeatedly placed his own life and the lives of friends in danger, and Snape knew this. Harry deserved all the dressing-down he got for sneaking off to Hogsmide. It was much more serious than petty rule breaking, because Sirius Black was belived to be out for Harry's blood at the time.

I would respectfully disagree. Snape did not give dressing downs, imo. Neither Harry nor any child deserves to be bullied in the manner Snape employed for breaking rules. Lupin dressed him down appropriately and Snape should have emulated that behavior as it was more effective and appropriate. I feel McGonagall was another professor Snape could have emulated in that regard.

Well, I assumed they simply watched Harry and everyone from the sky or wherever they were spending their afterlife. That's how they knew what had happened prior to Harry's walk to death. But there isn't a single hint in the book that they could see the future. Considering all this, I find their reaction very perplexing. The only explanation I have is that, being dead, they probably viewed life in an entirely different way and possibly did not value it as much.

Do you really feel that is a proposition that JKR would support? I also feel the canon supports the proposition that they knew what was to come or JKR would not have had them say that the end was very close. How could they possibly know that? As someone pointed out, Voldemort may have had a long tortorus session in mind - or any one of a number of intervening factors could have occurred. So I feel that the answer is not to say that when those in the HP series move on to the afterlife they lose all sense of moral value.

That idea cuts even more at Snape's presumed redemption because what would possibly be the point in having him struggle and strive in rejecting evil only to die and return to a state of mind that eschewed all of the moral values he had collected during his life? And Voldemort could have gone on to the afterworld under that theory as well, imo.

How do you suppose Snape should have disclosed this information to Harry? Should he have approached him? I doubt that would have ended well.
When he learnt that Harry was at Hogwarts, he wanted to see him and possibly inform him of everything Harry needed to know, but fighting Minerva and Flitwick the duel champion seemed to put the matter out of his mind for just a bit.

He had nearly two years - much of it during Harry's 6th year when there was ample opportunity to speak to him. I agree Harry would not believe it - but Snape would merely direct him to Dumbledore and Harry would confirm what Snape told him through the elderly wizard. That would have actually been quite an amazing storyline relative to Snape's arc - well to me any way. .

He is Snape. He would not have ran after Hermione, patted her on the back and said "There, there".

Well my point was "he is Snape" so he likely meant to humiliate her with his comment - that was something he often did, imo. So if we are analysing his behavior based on his normal treatment of the children, I feel my interpretation is also applicable.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

If Snape meant it as mexicant suggests, as a simple statement of fact about two magical hexes cast on two of his students rather than a slur on Hermione's usual appearance, it is not clear to me how he should have instantly realized that a perfectly reasonable statement by him was misunderstood by her and caused her to run off crying. We have no evidence, other than the very statement the meaning of which we are discussing, to suggest Snape thought there was anything remotely worthy of comment regarding Hermione's teeth in their natural state.

If mexicant is right, then from his point of view, Snape engaged in a discussion with Ron and Harry about what was done to Hermione by Draco and by Harry to Goyle. And then suddenly Hermione ran out of the room in tears. For all we know, he might have attributed her reaction to Ron's insensitivity in exposing the injury Hermione herself had endeavored to hide. Or he might have guessed that Hermione (incorrectly, in his view) believed herself more wronged than Goyle and was reacting to this perceived injustice.

I respect what you are saying, however, I feel Snape was wise enough to understand that his remark had impacted Hermione. Further, many of his actions and statements relative to the children were humiliating in nature, imo, so I do not understand why this would be interpreted distinctly. I respect every reader's right to interpret these scenes as they see them - but my own interpretation is that Snape was behaving as he generally did in situations involving the children.

[LyraLovegood]

I always took that statement of Snape's to mean that Hermione's teeth looked no worse after Goyle's hex than they had before. Mexicant's interpretation is completely new territory for me. I agree with wwb that it's perfectly in character for Snape to be nastily insulting to a Muggle-born Gryffindor.

[ignisia]

...But actually not very in-character for him to insult a person's appearance, funnily enough. I have no real opinion either way in that scene, because, yes, he could certainly have meant that to be an insult to Hermione's looks. It would, however, be the first and only disparaging comment he'd make about a person's looks. Generally, he insults his students' intelligence or talks about their real or imagined personality faults.

ETA: Nor, indeed, would he go out of his way to target someone on the basis of their being a muggle-born female Gryffindor. If I recall correctly, he was not only quite fond of one of those but insisted that Pineas Nigellus not use the word "Mudblood". It's the Gryffindor boys who bear a striking resemblance to one James Potter who really need to watch out.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Oh please, where oh where in canon does it tell us that Snape told Voldemort that the unnamed person in the prophecy was Harry Potter?

It was the other way around, Voldemort told Snape he'd decided on Harry. Snape then asked for the mother to be spared - and Dumbledore called that exchanging the son for the mother - and it could be seen as such if Dumbledore felt that Snape thought Voldy owed him one.

Originally Posted by ignisia

ETA: Nor, indeed, would he go out of his way to target someone on the basis of their being a muggle-born female Gryffindor. If I recall correctly, he was not only quite fond of one of those but insisted that Pineas Nigellus not use the word "Mudblood". It's the Gryffindor boys who bear a striking resemblance to one James Potter who really need to watch out.

I agree that being a female and muggleborn had little to do with it. However, I would respectfully disagree that Snape only mistreated children on the basis of whether or not they looked like James Potter (which in itself is a completely unjustified and irrational reason, imo) but Snape mistreated many children, many of them Gryffindors, males and females, for whatever reasons he may have had.

I personally felt the canon showed that he had a particular vendetta against Hermione because she was brilliant. That could be because his youthful enemies were also brilliant and he was onto his transference deal. I felt that way because he was rude and belittling toward her in the first class - prior to her being a particular friend of Harry's - and prior to his understanding the full extent of her brilliance. The mere fact that she knew answers seemed to be enough to raise his hackles and to me there is no reason for that other than jealousy and/or dislike of intelligent Gryffindor children - based perhaps on the fact that Sirius and James did the same in class when he was young - or were selected to do so. Recall his comment from the train that Gryffindors were brawny and it was the Slytherins that were brainy. Well his enemies proved him wrong in that regard by and through their subsequent performance. Snape carried a lot of petty baggage with him from his youth and it would seem that Hermione was simply another victim of his tendency for transference in that regard (this I feel moved beyond his everyday bullying of the children). Actually, another reason might simply be that her giving him correct answers prevented him from belittling other children who would not have said answers, but that seems a bit far fetched even for Snape, imo, however, I would concede it is a possibility (in that first class I think that did play into it as he was focusing on Harry, but his subseqeunt behavior toward Hermione reinforces the overall I idea I presented, imo).

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

However, I would respectfully disagree that Snape only mistreated children on the basis of whether or not they looked like James Potter (which in itself is a completely unjustified and irrational reason, imo) but Snape mistreated many children, many of them Gryffindors, males and females, for whatever reasons he may have had.

I believe this style of argument is known as the "straw man".

ignisia expressed the opinion that Snape did not seem to address the appearance of his students (with the one possible exception of the Hermione's teeth incident what we have been discussing). Rather, she suggested, it was their intelligence, behavior, and character that drew his fire.

As it happens, I agree with her. I too have no strong opinion of what Snape may have meant by the "I see no difference" comment. It took Hermione's reaction to clue me in to the worst possible construction of it. If he did mean it in that way, however, this is the lone instance on the books in which he comments on someone's appearance.

Back before DH, on one of the "Snape: The Hero" threads, I posted a list of targets of Snape's insults, and what he insults them for/about:

A list of Snape's preferred targets and the insults he uses:

Harry: enjoying his fame, attention seeking, arrogance, inability to follow instructions on Potions/ Occlumency, being a thoughtless rule-breaker, being a liar and a cheat (No mention of his unruly hair, scar, or glasses).

Neville: being stupid, sloppy, and lazy in his work, incompetent (No mention of his chubbiness).

Hermione: being an insufferable know-it-all, parroting textbooks (No mention of the hair, no mention of having a cat's head, there is of course the `I see no difference' comment, which might be the sole exception to my proposed rule)

Ron: inability to Apparate (No mention of his handmade or secondhand clothing)

Lupin: criticizes his teaching style and organization of his class (No mention of his ragged clothing)

Sirius: implies he is a coward, and useless to the Order (No mention of the complete change in his appearance)

Peter: calls him vermin. I take this is a reference to his Animagus form, which in the Potterverse says something about his character, not his external appearance. (No mention of his looks).

Bellatrix: implies she is useless to Voldemort, and not the sharpest tool in the shed (No mention of the complete change in her appearance)

Tonks: criticizes weakness of her Patronus

Draco: criticizes his actions in HBP as clumsy and foolish, implies he is being childish (OK, Draco's appearance does not seem to be an available target, as he is well dressed, well-groomed, and at worst not handsome).

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I believe this style of argument is known as the "straw man".

ignisia expressed the opinion that Snape did not seem to address the appearance of his students (with the one possible exception of the Hermione's teeth incident what we have been discussing). Rather, she suggested, it was their intelligence, behavior, and character that drew his fire.

As it happens, I agree with her. I too have no strong opinion of what Snape may have meant by the "I see no difference" comment. It took Hermione's reaction to clue me in to the worst possible construction of it. If he did mean it in that way, however, this is the lone instance on the books in which he comments on someone's appearance.

I don't feel I in anyway ignored the proposition Ignisia made or attempted to turn the comment into a different proposition. She did express the opinion that Snape's remarks did not seem to pertain to the appearance of his students. However, independent of one's interpretation in the scene we are speaking about, Snape was referring to her appearance (even if in a comparative sense of seeing no greater harm done to her than Goyle, when it is evident that the harm done to her is far greater relative to her appearance.)

However, Ignisia's subsequent statement that those young males who resembled James Potter had to watch out, did not speak to appearance at all, because as you pointed out, Snape did not belittle Harry for his appearance. So the topic was adroitly turned to Snape's overall belittling by that statement which is what I addressed. In addition, I gave my opinion that his behavior toward Hermione in particular may have been predicated on factors that were specific to her.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by wwb

I personally felt the canon showed that he had a particular vendetta against Hermione because she was brilliant. That could be because his youthful enemies were also brilliant and he was onto his transference deal. I felt that way because he was rude and belittling toward her in the first class - prior to her being a particular friend of Harry's - and prior to his understanding the full extent of her brilliance. The mere fact that she knew answers seemed to be enough to raise his hackles and to me there is no reason for that other than jealousy and/or dislike of intelligent Gryffindor children - based perhaps on the fact that Sirius and James did the same in class when he was young - or were selected to do so.

I don't think that Snape did pick on Hermione, and certainly he didn't have a vendetta against her. What Snape made quite clear was that he didn't lke her "know-it-all" attitude, which gets up quite a few peoples noses - even Harry's and Ron's to start with! It isn't just that she knows the answers in Snape's class but that the way she raises her hand trying to get the teachers attention so she can display her brilliance.

There is also plenty of canon to show that Snape treats all the pupils pretty much the same with the exception of Slytherins whom he favours. I don't think that he singles anyone out apart from Harry (which I believe is the point that Ignisia was making). Remember in the first lesson Harry was going to call him on the unfairness of being blamed for Neville's ineptitude until Ron warned him against it because he had heard from his older brothers that Snape could "turn nasty".

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

I don't think that Snape did pick on Hermione, and certainly he didn't have a vendetta against her. What Snape made quite clear was that he didn't lke her "know-it-all" attitude, which gets up quite a few peoples noses - even Harry's and Ron's to start with! It isn't just that she knows the answers in Snape's class but that the way she raises her hand trying to get the teachers attention so she can display her brilliance.

Agreed, but why? That is the bit I was addressing - and admittedly vendetta is too strong a word. But Snape's focus was upon her for that reason and it does make one wonder why. A brilliant student (know all about a particular subject matter being studied in a classroom which is what a professor wants of the student) is different than a brilliant friend or acquaintance (know all about everything which no one does). And why immediately? The first day of class, one can't really be said to be a 'know it all' as they have not yet displayed their knowledge. The very idea that she might have knowledge was the only thing Snape could have been predicating his behavior on at that point, imo. However, later, when he confirmed she was indeed knowledgeable, he continued to respond that way and again one must ask why that might be considering they were in a classroom.

[Murzim]

The only time I remember Snape calling Hermione a know-it-all, was when she in fact didn't 'know it all' and was getting in his way. In PoA he wanted the students to realize that Lupin was a werewolf. So he had to set them that essay. And IMO he insulted Hermione to make her work extra hard, because she was the most likely to find out.

I agree of course that he didn't treat her properly. She was a Gryffidore, and IMO he never let a chance to make Gryffindore's miserable pass. And she was close to Harry - Herminone, Ron and Harry were the new Marauders, at least I think in Snapes mind.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

The very idea that she might have knowledge was the only thing Snape could have been predicating his behavior on at that point, imo. However, later, when he confirmed she was indeed knowledgeable, he continued to respond that way and again one must ask why that might be considering they were in a classroom.

I dunno, I always saw Snape and Hermione as kindered 'students': She had small hand writing, he had small handwriting. He wrote totally way more than was necessary, as she did. He went over his test answers, so did she.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

I dunno, I always saw Snape and Hermione as kindered 'students': She had small hand writing, he had small handwriting. He wrote totally way more than was necessary, as she did. He went over his test answers, so did she.

I think the fact that Snape liked to imagine they were kindred students, but knew they were in reality not, was likely the problem. Snape was never noted for being the best, wisest or most intelligent in his year as Hermione was. I am sure many students over the years had small handwriting and numerous students, especially Ravenclaws, focused upon their test answers - and included information that went beyond the question asked. I feel that Snape had a small amount of jealousy for all students who were recognized as brilliant - something he'd aimed to be when young, but had been unable to achieve recognition for. But his feelings would be especilaly profound when a Gryffindor was recognized as the 'cleverest in her year' because in addition to obtaining the recognition he had not, they would also be liken unto his enemies who were also granted that recognition for their intelligence. As I pointed out, Snape had believed that Gryffindors were 'brawny' not brainy and that Slytherins (and perhaps Ravenclaws) were the brainy ones - or at least more intelligent overall than the Gryffindors. However, both during his time at Hogwarts and during Harry's years, Gryffindors filled that role and I don't think he was very happy about it.

Even when Hermione gave him a correct answer - the occassion when he allowed her to answer in HBP - his response was degrading in nature. If he wanted a broader or more introspective response than what was gleaned from the book, then he should have asked a follow up question, which is what all teachers and professors do - especially with the more academically intelligent students - in order to get them to elaborate on underlying ideas and notions. However, Snape did not do this, instead he went on to elaborate himself, as if to show that he was the more brilliant of the two. That of course is nonsensical because a teacher is expected to be more brilliant with respect to the subject they are teaching; but apparently Snape wished to elaborate rather than give Hermione the opportunity to do so, rendering his comment unfair (she did answer the question correctly) and suspect relative to his motive. I feel this interpretation is in line with JKR's comments regarding her rendering of Snape's 'teaching character' - which I read after I reached that interpretation for myself.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I feel that Snape had a small amount of jealousy for all students who were recognized as brilliant - something he'd aimed to be when young, but had been unable to achieve recognition for.

The only time we hear anything regarding Snape's abilities at school is in HBP, from one of Snape's teachers, Slughorn, who seemed to rate him rather highly. So, I see no reason to suspect that he wasn't recognised for his abilities whilst he was at school. Slughorn talking about Harry to Snape:

-'You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, the Draught of Living Death - never had a student produce a finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus '

Ironically, Slughorn doesn't know that Harry had been following instructions from Snape's own potions book.

[boushh]

It also seemed to me that Severus was a brilliant student (or he worked hard enough to be) and perhaps wasn't as recognized for it as he may have wanted to be...

[TreacleTartlet]

As Snape gives every impression of being a brilliant student, I don't see why his teachers would not have given him recognition of his efforts and abilities in class. However, it seems to me that it is the Quidditch heroes like James that get all the glory and I can certainly see Snape feeling very resentful of this.