Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[CathyWeasley]

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock. He and Sirius were very clever - clever enough to do well without really trying - unlike Hermione who works her butt off. James and Sirius were popular, amd I think that Severus could not work out why and assigned all sorts of reasons for it (such as James being good at quidditch) when in truth they were just a pair of jokers with a certain amount of charm. They were rebels without being "bad" and such people are nearly always popular with their peers.

ETA: Just realised I've missed an entire page of posts!

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

I wasn't aware of that, but I think he still must have had to persevere to master just staying on a broom, because he certainly seemed to have had absolutely no talent in that direction, if we go from the scene we see during the Occlumency lessons.

The other alternative is that the broom was not behaving properly. Messing with a new, professional-standard broom such as the one Harry had requires (according to Hagrid) Dark Magic. But Snape doubtless could not have afforded such a broom as a child.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock.

Based only on the evidence of the HP books, I would have to disagree. Harry, the Twins, Draco, Cho, Cedric, Angelina - all these people are Quidditch players, and popular students. People are attracted to them *because* of this (see, e. g. Lav Lav). Perhaps this reflects not currentl reality in UK schools, but a convention of the "public school story" genre?

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

This makes a lot of sense to me as to explaining Snape's attitude towards Hermione.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock.

Although, Hogwarts is very British in most respects, I see a difference between a normal muggle UK school and Hogwarts were Quidditch is concerned. In Hogwarts, it is the only sport played and matches appear to be attended by nearly the whole school, so I just see it that more importance is attached to quidditch, than to a sport played in a muggle school, were there are many different sports played and were only a small percentage of the school attend matches. Sorry, getting rather off topic here.

ETA:

Originally Posted by zgirnius

The other alternative is that the broom was not behaving properly. Messing with a new, professional-standard broom such as the one Harry had requires (according to Hagrid) Dark Magic. But Snape doubtless could not have afforded such a broom as a child.

That's true!

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

Snape himself actually shows some display of jealousy in regards to James's quidditch talent.

PoA, Snape's Grudge

'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup winners.'

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Hes

I don't think we've enough canon material about Snape and the Marauder's academic and sports skills to draw assumptions from. Meaning pointing out that Sirius wasn't the best student (imo he was lazy) or Snape couldn't match James.

Personally though I think Snape was a really good student and a very talented wizard, otherwise I doubt he would have been able to trick Voldemort.

I respect your view. However, Snape never tricked Voldemort as a student, so I don't really see what one thing has to do with the other. I feel that adult Snape, like adult Kingsley, Moody and many other wizards showed they were very talented when older, but from that I don't feel it is possible to know what type of academic performance they had at Hogwarts.

I agree we don't have enough canon material to ascertain much, but we do have canon about Hermione wherein she was called the cleverest or best witch in her year and we have that same party saying the same about James and Sirius (POA) - and McGonagall also commenting on the intelligence of all three (POA/OOTP). That is enough for me to personally conclude that Snape may have drawn a similarity there also and that may have influenced his attitude and behavior toward Hermione in the classroom. I also think it is possible that had nothing to do with it and there might have been another reason.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

I don't think that "quidditch hereos" got all the glory. I get the impression that in American schools boys who are on the football team are popular, but that isn't really the case so much in the UK so I don't think that James was ever what the Americans would describe as a jock. He and Sirius were very clever - clever enough to do well without really trying - unlike Hermione who works her butt off. James and Sirius were popular, amd I think that Severus could not work out why and assigned all sorts of reasons for it (such as James being good at quidditch) when in truth they were just a pair of jokers with a certain amount of charm. They were rebels without being "bad" and such people are nearly always popular with their peers.

This is another good idea, I hadn't thought of it from that standpoint, but that could have influenced Snape's view of Hermione.

ETA: Just realised I've missed an entire page of posts!

Me too.

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

Snape himself actually shows some display of jealousy in regards to James's quidditch talent. PoA, Snape's Grudge 'Rules were for lesser mortals, not Quidditch Cup winners.'

I agree. "Every one thinks...big Quidditch Hero" were also among the words that Snape was muttering when speaking with Lily and he became very upset in memory #5 of the Prince's Tale (DH). So I also feel it was a factor for Snape by and through his own words.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by Raelis

All the speculation about whether Snape was a gifted student or not surpised me a bit. I think we are given ample evidence in the books that Snape was hard-working, very intelligent and creative as a student and grew up to be an exceptionally powerful wizard. And I agree that he probably did not attract as much of his teachers attention as some other bright students due to his introverted and reserved personality. Although we know for sure that his Potions talents did not go unnoticed by Slughorn.

I agree. We may not be able to ascertain who was more intelligent (nor do we need to) but I think it was made clear that he was hard working, creative and very smart academically. We don't need to have anyone tell us this... we're shown it by the potions book, which contained spells other than potions, and by how he took on his exams... and by having grown up to be a very powerful wizard. He didn't spontaneously just become intelligent and powerful. He had the background knowledge from his schooling and his own talent and expanded upon that as he grew.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

I agree and I think that may be true with some of the other students as well.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

The other alternative is that the broom was not behaving properly. Messing with a new, professional-standard broom such as the one Harry had requires (according to Hagrid) Dark Magic. But Snape doubtless could not have afforded such a broom as a child.

Oh, that's another interesting possibility. He was picked on from day one after all, so it wouldn't surprise me if the broom was jinxed. Both this possibility and his not being that good with a broom as a child are interesting ones though.

Based only on the evidence of the HP books, I would have to disagree. Harry, the Twins, Draco, Cho, Cedric, Angelina - all these people are Quidditch players, and popular students. People are attracted to them *because* of this (see, e. g. Lav Lav). Perhaps this reflects not currentl reality in UK schools, but a convention of the "public school story" genre?

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

Agreed. Quidditch seems to be a big part of the culture of the school. It was treated like a big deal by most of the students anyway. I mean the turn out at the matches was huge, if I remember right.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Based only on the evidence of the HP books, I would have to disagree. Harry, the Twins, Draco, Cho, Cedric, Angelina - all these people are Quidditch players, and popular students. People are attracted to them *because* of this (see, e. g. Lav Lav). Perhaps this reflects not currentl reality in UK schools, but a convention of the "public school story" genre?

]

I am not sure I can agree with that. Cho and Angelina were popular? I don't recall that from the canon. I know Harry looked upon both with admiration, but I don't feel he stands for the student body in that case. I feel Draco was only popular in his house, the rest of the school appeared to have little liking for him. The twins appeared to be popular because of their hi-jinks as opposed to their Quidditch talent and while I think Cedric's talent played into it, I feel he was popular based on other reasons in addition to that. Plus Sirius was popular and not a Quidditch player and Ron was not popular and he was a Quidditch player (I don't think Lav Lav stood for the whole school either). I do think that they were all admired if they showed talent on the field, but it seemed to me that despite that, one could find themselves highly unpopular as Harry did for a time.

The relevance to Snape, is that if we take a position that Quidditch and popularity have little to do with each other - why else would it make any sense for Lupin to assert Snape was jealous of James' quidditch talent? I do think this is at best misleading and at worst a lie, but to work, a deception has to be based on *some* reality. IN this case, I took it to be a reality of the social position of athletes in Hogwarts.

I don't see how Lupin was either misleading or lying. Even if Snape was jealous of the popularity garnered in part from that talent, his emotions would still be traced to the talent. But we know now that Lupin did not know the whole reason why Snape seemed to pinpoint James over Sirius in that regard - so he made a guess that it was the Quidditch talent which distinguished them - and I feel that was partially true. However, we know that Lily was also a factor, something Lupin was unaware of. If you meant JKR was misleading us in part, I agree - she didn't want to reveal the bit about Lily at that point.

[Labrynth]

Snape had made corrections, and was innovative enough to improve the potions in his potions book and he had also created spells and even potions perhaps, and he may have even improved existing spells by making/creating variations of them. Hermione was brilliant I agree, but she does not seem to push for that improvement or have the innovativeness that Snape perhaps expected someone like Hermione to have. That could be why he dismissed her know-it-all attitude so IMO.

I would agree with this. The fact that Hermoine could recite the book never impressed Snape much. It was just regurgitating back an answer. I think, to him, that kind of response actually means she's not as smart as people think she is.

I think we were given evidence of Snape's intellegence from his potions book. Which contained, not only notes on improvements to potions, but also spells and counter-spells that he invented himself whilst still at school. Although, I agree with you that we do not get a comment from any of his teachers, on his all round academic performance in school, as we do with James and Sirius.

Again I agree. We have no indication that James or Sirius ever went above and beyond what was expected of them. Even Hermonie, who likes to learn for learning's sake, still works at her grades. I think it was merely just easy for James and Sirius to do well. Just like someone who does well on standardized tests but might not know the material as well as someone else.

We tend to dislike in others faults that we ourselves possess. I think that Hermione irritated Snape because of her rather desperate need for recognition. But it is this desperate need for recognition that drove Snape to become a Death Eater. I don't think he is conscious of the similarities between himself and Hermione as I don't think that Severus is one to psychologically analyse his thoughts and feelings, but I think that is why he finds her so annoying. And as I said a lot of people find Hermione annoying at times. She is undoubtedly a swot, and swots are generally not popular.

Very astute. It's always hard to see faults in others and recognize them in ourselves. I guess there's a reason opposites attract!

I guess I just don't see how Snape's intelligence or performance in school could be questioned. I feel we have more than enough canon to show he was very intelligent and had a big drive to succeed in what he was doing. The Potions book just cements that seeing as how he created many new spells on his own, and corrected a lot of things in the book itself that were STILL being taught when Harry took the class.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

I would agree with this. The fact that Hermoine could recite the book never impressed Snape much. It was just regurgitating back an answer. I think, to him, that kind of response actually means she's not as smart as people think she is.

And yet the reader knows that Hermione is as intelligent as others believe. Are we supposed to take away that Snape was too unintelligent to realize this? He was present when she was placed on a time turner schedule and he has witnessed her work for 5 years up to this point. In my judgment, he would have to be rather simple not to realize how intelligent she was at that point.

Again I agree. We have no indication that James or Sirius ever went above and beyond what was expected of them. Even Hermonie, who likes to learn for learning's sake, still works at her grades. I think it was merely just easy for James and Sirius to do well. Just like someone who does well on standardized tests but might not know the material as well as someone else.

Well I believe it is only fair that everyone be allowed to speculate, but we have no canon on the matter other than what was offered in the book. It does not matter why Hermione, James and Sirius were called best or cleverest in their year, merely the fact that they were and Snape was not. That is all that is required, imo, for me to conclude that Snape may have had an issue with that fact.

I guess I just don't see how Snape's intelligence or performance in school could be questioned. I feel we have more than enough canon to show he was very intelligent and had a big drive to succeed in what he was doing. The Potions book just cements that seeing as how he created many new spells on his own, and corrected a lot of things in the book itself that were STILL being taught when Harry took the class.

The problem is, the potions book and Slughorn's comment is all that we have. To me that says Snape likely did well in potions (although if Harry did a better job - or questionably so - then others likely did as well.) You claim that we have more than enough canon - but in truth, we have none at all other than those two facts relative to Snape's Hogwart's performance (which I don't feel is more than enough, but rather, I feel it is little to nothing at all). Sure he had talent as an adult - many did - but that does not prove all of them excelled academically. Was Kingsley extremely intelligent with a drive to succeed while at Hogwarts merely because he showed those attributes as an adult? Maybe - maybe not. It is the same with Snape, imo.

In reality, there seems to be more importance placed on Snape's performance and/or brilliance in school than the fact that he was not "noted for it" - because it is only the latter that matters at all to the point I initially raised. His not being noted for it may have been a factor in his treatment of Hermione - or it may not have been. But it was merely a suggestion that it could have been because he was never "noted" for it by others in the way that she was. And as you pointed out above, he seemed to indicate her performance was subpar for some reason - when she was the best in her year. I don't feel the point was that Hermione *actually wasn't intelligent*. That is a conclusion that only bolsters Snape's behavior and point of view - I think JKR really meant that Hermione was actually brilliant when writing her character. Finding rationales for Snape that tear down Hermione's brilliance really doesn't work for me at all; not when there was no single other person in canon who indicated that Hermione was anything less than brilliant - something which she proved again and again in canon right before our eyes.

[Labrynth]

At no point in time did I ever say Hermoine was unintelligent. Hermoine is rarely able to think outside the box, able to put things in her own words and explain them to others. Instead she relies on regurgitating something straight out of the book. It shows no comprehension or understanding of the material. Having a photographic memory doesn't make you smart... it means you have a photographic memory. Smart is in the actual comprehension but Hermoine almost always chose to simply recite something back. Memorization isn't learning.

To someone like Snape, who obviously puts high regard on intelligence, this kind of behavior would be, at the very least, insanely irritating. Parroting back things just shows she reads well. She showed no inclination or even ability, like Snape did according to his old potions book, to work on things her own way.

For this reason I can see why Snape might not consider her as clever as other people did.

[Moriath]

As usual, if you have any problems with a fellow member's post, use the report post button. There is absolutely no need to get personal. Thank you.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

To someone like Snape, who obviously puts high regard on intelligence. Parroting back things just shows she reads well.

IMO this is not fact. There is zero factual, canonical proof that Snape held intelligent students in high regard, IMO. If it were fact, IMO, then he'd embrace the intellect of the Ravenclaws and of Hermione, the student that is stated in canon as being the cleverest witch in whichever year they were in. It's an over-simplification, IMO, to say that all Hermione did was 'parrot' a book. She did have difficulty accepting poor markings, as in getting an Exceeds Expectations instead of an Outstanding.

She showed no inclination or even ability, like Snape did according to his old potions book, to work on things her own way.

She showed ability far beyond her years, even Harry at times showed ability beyond his years.

Snape liked to experiment and we don't know who might have helped him perfect his little experiments, either, or if he did them all on his little lonesome. Hermione liked to stay out of trouble and play it safe {for the most part}. This in no way means that she either did not have inclination or ability or in any way lacked intellect high enough to garner Snape's regard, IMO.

[arithmancer]

There is canon that Snape observed Hermione's intelligence and recognised it. This would not, necessarily, prevent him from finding her parroting fo books annoying, naturally.

HBP, "Spinner's End" He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree..."

I presume he did not mean Ron.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

There is canon that Snape observed Hermione's intelligence and recognised it. This would not, necessarily, prevent him from finding her parroting fo books annoying, naturally.



I presume he did not mean Ron.

Just an honest (imo) observation. He is not necessarily talking about academic achievement there. But in any case, if he is calling Harry mediocre to the last degree, that is not saying much about his 'more talented' friends. I think he was including Ron because he pluralized - which leads me to believe he wasn't thinking in terms of academics.

I think Snape's comments to Hermione as well as to Harry (like, 'little bit of talent on the Quidditch Pitch") were just jealousy on Snape's part - not of Hermione's intelligence or Harry's playing, but of the attention it garnered them.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

There is canon that Snape observed Hermione's intelligence and recognised it. This would not, necessarily, prevent him from finding her parroting fo books annoying, naturally.



I presume he did not mean Ron.

I agree. He does seemingly acknowledge her intellect. And yes, just about everyone I know would be annoyed by someone who is an "insufferable know-it-all" and Severus would certainly be no exception. Look at how people thought of Percy and Hermione was quite Percy-like through-out the books and then she became more Mrs. Weasleyish.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

I agree. He does seemingly acknowledge her intellect. And yes, just about everyone I know would be annoyed by someone who is an "insufferable know-it-all" and Severus would certainly be no exception. Look at how people thought of Percy and Hermione was quite Percy-like through-out the books and then she became more Mrs. Weasleyish.

I think it is natural for it to be annoying to young immature students, but note that it was not annoying to McGonagall, Lupin, Dumbledore, Binns or any other of the professors doing their jobs. The only other professor it annoyed that I recall was Umbridge...

[Kat_Suki]

Rita Skeeter didn't like her much either, but since this is about Snape. It's true that the other Professors did not show anything untoward in regards to Hermione's over-eagerness to excel, but then again, they each had different personalities too. Some teachers like that type of student, a teacher's pet; others do not. The first day at college, one of the Profs called all the students who'd sat in the first two row of seats suck ups and said that he'd only hand out high marks for excellent course work so unless they had vision/hearing problems he told them to go ahead and select different seats.

Though he certainly had the intelligence and experience to teach both Potions/Defense Against the Dark Arts, Sev really, IMO, made a lousy teacher.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I think it is natural for it to be annoying to young immature students, but note that it was not annoying to McGonagall, Lupin, Dumbledore, Binns or any other of the professors doing their jobs. The only other professor it annoyed that I recall was Umbridge...

It can be annoying to you, but a teacher should not be allowed to treat students like that. What Snape did to students is bullying in my eyes and by far nothing that a teacher should do. He should have kept his hate to himself.

[Murzim]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

She showed ability far beyond her years, even Harry at times showed ability beyond his years.

The sometimes apply rather advanced magic, but as far as I know neither showed magical creativity like Severus had. Hermione is very outspokenly against new, not Ministry approved (handwritten!) spells/methods, and while Harry uses them we never see him make anything up himself.

[The_Green_Woods]

I agree and I think Snape exhibited an intelligence and a creativity in his School years that was uncommon. He was an expert in at least 4 fields; Potions, Defence Against the Dark Arts, Dark Arts and Occlumency. He also showed he could craft spells and create new potions by making changes to improve the existing ones.

[wickedwickedboy]

Well I would say let's not get carried away by Snape having tried out mixing his potion in a different direction or chopping roots horizontally instead of vertically to see if it might work better. That exploratory experimenting is great, but only one aspect of broadening one's education. He was motivated to do that in potions and that is great. And of course he was not the only young person to come up with jinxes and such - as we saw the twins far outdid what he'd written in his book when it came to inventiveness in that regard.

However, practical application is also extremely important - did Snape ever clear up someone's eye glasses so that they could see and perform in the rain? Did he ever create a bottomless bag for the important and practical use of carrying around needed items? Did he create those proteus (sp) coins Hermione did based merely on her knowledge of the dark mark? Not that we know of. But Hermione did these things and if she learned basic skills that allowed her to apply magic in these ways, that shows a similar broadening of academia in terms of theory.

Harry similarly englarged on his basic skills - and while some of you may discredit athletics as a part of the educational curriculum, many don't. That he was able to excell at Quidditch spoke to more than mere flying skills, but technique, forethought and strategy as well. Those skills increased with each practice or game he participated in. Additionally, his knowledge of 'how' to perform various DADA spells was fortified by his personal enlargement on the ideas of 'when', 'where' and 'what' to use in that regard.

So I don't feel that one can elevate figuring out creative ways of improving potions above other means of enlarging on academia. And I don't believe that Hermione never did the former (like with the coins, she obviously did). Further, we have no idea what Hermione did in order to get outstanding marks - it is not revealed in canon. Thus for all we know, she may have been creatively coming up with her own way of doing things and was simply smart enough to remember it all without having to make scrawling comments in a book. Snape would not know if we base our conclusion on his regard for Hermione; he merely glanced at her "good" potions and said not a word about them - never asking how she achieved what she did.

In conclusion, I would say that Snape's comments to Hermione had little if any merit whatsoever in terms of her knowledge, ability or methodology. Nor do I feel one can conclude from his remarks how Hermione normally went about doing things. That she gave an answer to him on one of the few occassions he allowed her to speak that was similar to what was contained in the book, to me, speaks more to the fact that she might not have wished to enlarge for fear of Snape's normal responsive behavior and merely give an answer she knew he could not degrade her for (point in fact was that we KNOW she knew more because she is the one who pointed out that what Snape ended up saying is the same thing Harry had already said - i.e., knowledge Hermione DID have). However, if she believed that Snape would not belittle her as long as she stuck to the minimal correct answer, she was gravely mistaken. Snape behaved in a bullying manner toward the children so he could always come up with a means of degrading, belittling and humiliating them, imo. And frankly, I don't feel that Snape's potions achievements had anything to do with it because while great, I feel he understood that academic achievements come in many forms. Hermione's came in muliple forms and that is why she was noted as being the best in her year. Snape himself depended upon her brilliance in his nefarious attempt to expose Lupin, so I feel that his comments to her were more in line with his normal vindictive and bullying behavior rather than speaking to some type of academic chastisement meant in an encouraging light.