Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

[Kat_Suki]

Well of course he didn't do it. Who in the class did manage to master non-verbal spells for the very first time? Hermione. That's it. Did Snape attack her? No. Did he attack anyone else? No. Just Harry.

I'm sorry, but IMO it's a wee ridiculous to expect everyone in that class to master something the very first go round.

Prince "...you are, I believe, complete novices in the use of non-verbal spells."

[Labrynth]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

Non-verbal spells do not equate to Occlumency, as your quote proves. We see Harry 'thinking' the spell to cast it non-verbally.

The class was to all practice something they'd never done before, to begin the mastery of non-verbal spells. Hermione was one of the only one's to actually get it right, as per usual. We didn't see Snape attempt to hex any other student in the class. He chose Harry as a guinea pig, tossed a curse at him and Harry defended himself. Then he was a smart mouth to the Professor.

Did Snape at any point in that class believe Harry'd mastered non-verbal spells? IMO, no. The spell rebounded and knocked Snape over, can we assume that had Harry not countered it then he'd have been knocked off his feet?

As for his claiming things he'd never done, do we know this for absolute certainly? I seem to remember him fudging some info as a double agent, unless we're to believe everything he said to Bella and Cissy as literal fact, in which case it alters perceptions of his character even further.

Sorry I thought we were discussing Harry throwing Snape back during the occlumency lessons. Which is where the previous quote came from if I'm not mistaken. And if that's the case, then no, Harry never did manage to do what he was assigned to do, not by Snape but by Dumbledore.

Ok, sorry, but saying he lied while he was talking to Cissy and Bella seems a little...I dunno, obvious, to me. Of course he lied. He was SUPPOSED to lie. How else was he supposed to protect his position as a double agent? And a lot of what he said wasn't a lie, just a very clever play on words.

However we never saw him take credit for things, even thing we know for a fact he did, around the school. He could have easily pointed out to a number of classes that he thought of new and improved ways of making potions. Heck he could have even made the point to Slughorn while he was in his class. He could have taken credit for those spells, but he never did because Lupin never knew who created them, he only states they were very much in fashion during his school years. He could have bragged to his classes that he was a master at things other than potions, which he never did. He never even took credit for saving Harry's life way back in SS/PS. Harry only knew because Dumbledore told him. At the very least Harry owed Snape a thank you for that, which I somehow doubt he ever bothered to give. There are plenty of things Snape could have easily taken credit for that he never did. So why would he take credit for creating spells he didn't create? To our knowledge those spells were never in any other spell books. Seems to me if we were to believe they weren't created by Snape, JKR would have pointed out that they were in other books as well. But they weren't. They were hand written in Snape's old book.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

Sorry I thought we were discussing Harry throwing Snape back during the occlumency lessons. Which is where the previous quote came from if I'm not mistaken. And if that's the case, then no, Harry never did manage to do what he was assigned to do, not by Snape but by Dumbledore.

Oh, I'm sorry, Labrynth---I thought everyone was discussing the first DADA class that Snape taught, in regards to non-verbal spells.

We know that Harry never mastered Occlumency, we also know there was an underlying issue as to why he'd not ever be successful at it. He couldn't shut off/compartmentalize his emotions/reactions. That's why Snape and Draco were so good at it. Plus, there was very little to any type of real instruction as to how to accomplish the task, except what Snape continued to tell him "Close your mind"...okay, but how??? "You're weak, pathetic, arrogant just like your father...but you must control your emotions." Even Dumbledore admitted it was a mistake to have Snape try and teach Harry Occlumency, and intimates it was the past issues Snape had with James that basically equated to fail in those lessons.

You know, it's really rather interesting but during that lesson in which Harry breaks into Snape's mind wasn't Snape a bit out of control? I guess you really do need to be cucumber cool to accomplish it.

Originally Posted by Labrynth

Ok, sorry, but saying he lied while he was talking to Cissy and Bella seems a little...I dunno, obvious, to me. Of course he lied. He was SUPPOSED to lie. How else was he supposed to protect his position as a double agent? And a lot of what he said wasn't a lie, just a very clever play on words.

I totally agree here, so don't misunderstand. It's just that what you said was "Snape might have been a lot of things, but we never saw him take credit for something he didn't do." We know this is not true, we know that he claimed credit for things he very likely did not do...such as "...the info I have passed to him on the Order. It led, perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmaline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black..."

Because he is a double agent he's had to make certain claims, slant the truth or even invent it, and he does appear to take credit for a crime which I don't believe he was involved with. I could be entirely wrong, especially considering the leaking the info of Harry's departure date on Dumbledore's orders and then coming up with the Seven Potters to attempt to keep Harry safe...although why no one thought to put Harry in Moody's trunk and then cart it away from the place while Polyjuiced as the Dursley's I'll never know!

However the point I was making was to rebutt what you'd said. We know that Snape played the game to perfection and that he did make certain claims to fame that he may/may not have done. Personally I do believe he invented the spells, or at the very least modified and improved existing ones.

[ignisia]

But we are talking about the DADA class in HBP, not Occlumency. Sure, in both cases, Harry didn't do what he was told to, but the circumstances are different, even if the method is similar (the student or students needing only concentration to pull off the task).

As for the DADA class, I'm not too sure why it's an issue that the kids are told to do a task they've never done before. It seems to me that not only is that Snape's normal method, but other teachers seem to do that too from time to time. I don't like it, but I never got the impression Hogwarts was the most enlightened school ever.
In fact, the method Snape uses during that class in particular is very similar to how Harry taught the DA...the only difference being that Harry's more patient and friendly.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

The point wasn't to defend himself. The point was to keep someone from reading his mind... which he could never do.

Was that the point? A lot of good it did Snape.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by ignisia

But we are talking about the DADA class in HBP, not Occlumency. Sure, in both cases, Harry didn't do what he was told to, but the circumstances are different, even if the method is similar (the student or students needing only concentration to pull off the task).

As for the DADA class, I'm not too sure why it's an issue that the kids are told to do a task they've never done before. It seems to me that not only is that Snape's normal method, but other teachers seem to do that too from time to time. In fact, the method is very similar to how Harry taught the DA...the only difference being that Harry's more patient and friendly.

Oh, thank you. I'm so confused.

I've no issue with the practical application of Defense. Someone's definitely gonna get knocked about in that class and no one whined when Moody put the students through rigorous defense practice or when Lupin exposed the students to potentially lethal creatures {red caps, etc} or when Hagrid led a plethora of extremely dangerous creatures to class.

The reason that I'm emphasizing it as the first class is because such emphasis is being placed on Harry for not 'doing as he'd been instructed'. They were all trying to do the lesson with non-verbal spells. Which is what they were asked to do. "Attempt", not "Master". To expect complete perfection in the very first lesson is to expect everyone to be Hermione, IMO. Not possible and frankly not a fun read, either.

Yeah, Harry reacted instinctively to an attack by someone he considered an enemy. I don't see that as wrong. His smart mouth, on the other hand, is a different story entirely.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

He never even took credit for saving Harry's life way back in SS/PS. Harry only knew because Dumbledore told him. At the very least Harry owed Snape a thank you for that, which I somehow doubt he ever bothered to give.

Well to be fair, Snape couldn't really take credit because he got zinged by Hermione midstride and it was Hermione that ended up saving Harry. I am curious why you feel that Harry should have thanked Snape for attempting to save him (and failing - not his fault) in light of Snape's behavior toward Harry throughout the school year. I feel that only a person with no self worth at all would even consider thanking Snape in that circumstance.

He could have taken credit for those spells, but he never did because Lupin never knew who created them, he only states they were very much in fashion during his school years

Just my opinion, but I'd imagine he didn't take credit for Levicorpus for the same reason the Twins or Marauders would not take credit for their jinxes and pranks. It would have likely gotten them in trouble. I think the reason he didn't take credit for Sectumsempra prior to HBP is pretty straightforward.

There are plenty of things Snape could have easily taken credit for that he never did. So why would he take credit for creating spells he didn't create? To our knowledge those spells were never in any other spell books. Seems to me if we were to believe they weren't created by Snape, JKR would have pointed out that they were in other books as well. But they weren't. They were hand written in Snape's old book.

Actually I don't recall anyone arguing that these spells were not invented by Snape. Well sometime ago, Zara suggested they might not have been. But I agree with you and feel the canon indicated that he did create the spells.

Originally Posted by ignisia

But we are talking about the DADA class in HBP, not Occlumency. Sure, in both cases, Harry didn't do what he was told to, but the circumstances are different, even if the method is similar (the student or students needing only concentration to pull off the task).

Harry was just defending himself - Defense against the dark arts. He did a good job at it too. He didn't do it silently, but since silent defense spells serve no purpose whatsoever as far as I can see, I don't see the problem. If Snape wished Harry to practice silent spells, then he should have left him alone. He silenced Snape, at least for a moment, that's something.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

Well of course he didn't do it. Who in the class did manage to master non-verbal spells for the very first time? Hermione. That's it. Did Snape attack her? No. Did he attack anyone else? No. Just Harry.

"Attack"?!

Snape provided Harry with an opportunity to practice the technique he was learning in that class.An opportunity Harry did not have while practicing with Ron.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

"Attack"?!

Snape provided Harry with an opportunity to practice the technique he was learning in that class.An opportunity Harry did not have while practicing with Ron.

True, and Harry provided Snape with an opportunity to practice defending against his shield charm again...and Snape failed again...hit by spells of his own making both times and both spells were fierce, aggressive and overboard, imo. To me, Snape was defeated both times for the same reason. Snape's overall justification for his actions was admirable, wonderful and everything to be desired. But in those two little moments just before he found himself before Harry's shield, his ends were nefarious, imo. I believe that is why JKR wrote it in the manner she did. What was the point of having Harry best Snape in those two instances otherwise?

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

"Attack"?!

Snape provided Harry with an opportunity to practice the technique he was learning in that class.An opportunity Harry did not have while practicing with Ron.

Sure, attack.

As the aggressor, Snape took the offensive position/attack mode; Harry reacted instinctively to that offensive move and successfully resisted that attack, the defensive or defended position. Common in sports, martial arts, chess, and strategic warfare. The phrase is 'the best offense is a good defense'. Snape's defense wasn't that good.

[Labrynth]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Was that the point? A lot of good it did Snape.

But Snape wasn't the focus for those lessons was he? Voldemort was. Sure, he caught Snape off guard with the shield charm (And it was pretty well done actually), but that still wasn't the point of the Occ classes. They wanted him to be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind. Not have to defend himself once Voldemort got in. Once he got in and had a few seconds to rummage around, he'd likely know everything he needed. We already knew Harry could defend himself physically from Voldemort... he'd already done it on a number of occasions. But he couldn't defend himself mentally against Voldemort.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well to be fair, Snape couldn't really take credit because he got zinged by Hermione midstride and it was Hermione that ended up saving Harry. I am curious why you feel that Harry should have thanked Snape for attempting to save him (and failing - not his fault) in light of Snape's behavior toward Harry throughout the school year. I feel that only a person with no self worth at all would even consider thanking Snape in that circumstance.

You said many pages ago that Snape owed James a thank you for saving his life. How is it any different? Hermoine's interruption doesn't change the fact that Snape likely kept Harry from plummeting to his death. He might not have been able to complete what he had been trying to do, which I'm guessing was completely remove the curse that had been placed (Or was being placed?) on Harry's broom, but without his actions we don't know that Harry wouldn't have taken a header into the ground at 200mph.

Just my opinion, but I'd imagine he didn't take credit for Levicorpus for the same reason the Twins or Marauders would not take credit for their jinxes and pranks. It would have likely gotten them in trouble. I think the reason he didn't take credit for Sectumsempra prior to HBP is pretty straightforward.

I agree with the Sectumsempra, but he could have easily taken credit for Levicorpus. A rather harmless little spell in the grand scheme of things and no worse than causing someone's eyebrows to grow until they obscure the vision...

The only time I really recall the twins not taking credit for something was when Umbridge was around and it's not like you can fault them for that.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

But Snape wasn't the focus for those lessons was he? Voldemort was. Sure, he caught Snape off guard with the shield charm (And it was pretty well done actually), but that still wasn't the point of the Occ classes. They wanted him to be able to keep Voldemort out of his mind. Not have to defend himself once Voldemort got in. Once he got in and had a few seconds to rummage around, he'd likely know everything he needed. We already knew Harry could defend himself physically from Voldemort... he'd already done it on a number of occasions. But he couldn't defend himself mentally against Voldemort.

I respect your view, but these are two different things. When escaping Hogwarts in HBP, Snape told Harry he had to keep his mind closed because he knew what spell Harry was going to use before he said it when Harry was attacking. So use of a silent spell is no help against a legilimens unless you are simultaneously practicing occlucmency, which the children were not asked to do. They were just supposed to say the spell in their minds rather than aloud. So this first practice session was not designed to help Harry with respect to blocking his thoughts.

You said many pages ago that Snape owed James a thank you for saving his life. How is it any different? Hermoine's interruption doesn't change the fact that Snape likely kept Harry from plummeting to his death. He might not have been able to complete what he had been trying to do, which I'm guessing was completely remove the curse that had been placed (Or was being placed?) on Harry's broom, but without his actions we don't know that Harry wouldn't have taken a header into the ground at 200mph.

I still agree with myself. Snape owed James a thank you for certain, but there is no way on earth Snape was gonna give it to him. Under the circumstances I feel it would be rather far fetched to imagine Snape doing so because they were enemies. He'd hex James before thanking him. However, Snape should have felt grateful and not gone about making up motivations for his saviour and consigning the deed to rubbish. That was wrongful. I feel the exact same way with respect to Harry thanking Snape - no way on earth he would do so. I am not sure if there is canon as to whether or not Harry felt grateful - but he didn't go around conjuring up negative motivations and consigning them to Snape.

I agree with the Sectumsempra, but he could have easily taken credit for Levicorpus. A rather harmless little spell in the grand scheme of things and no worse than causing someone's eyebrows to grow until they obscure the vision...

The only time I really recall the twins not taking credit for something was when Umbridge was around and it's not like you can fault them for that.

Oh you mean with their mates. I thought you meant somehow breaking out the news to the entire school. . Well since Snape had to have introduced the spell somehow, it was likely to his mates (or whoever) and so he did take credit for it in that way - like the twins did. It is just that none of them could broadcast it or they would likely get in trouble.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

He might not have been able to complete what he had been trying to do, which I'm guessing was completely remove the curse that had been placed (Or was being placed?) on Harry's broom, but without his actions we don't know that Harry wouldn't have taken a header into the ground at 200mph.

Quite. Indeed, Quirrell states that in fact Harry would have:

PS/SS "Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you."

In other words, if Snape had not been doing his thing, Hermione would have been too late.

[Moriath]

And we're closing early because of new awesome thread of awesomeness.