The All-Inclusive HBP Thread, v.12

[tking]

I suppose you could say that the main twist to Snape's character is in DH - by the end of HBP, we're tricked into thinking he's the bad guy. Six books of lead up, of questions and doubts of his loyalty, and finally his true identity is revealed.

Then again DH goes back on that, and reverses his sides. If they're playing it so that film-HBP strongly advocates Snape's allegiance to Voldemort, then revealing him as good will come off as stronger in the final two films. I think.

[Bscorp]

The only thing that I don't think was well conveyed was a true uncertainty of whether Snape is good or bad. The audience's reaction kind of confirmed this as there was no gasp of surprise when he kills Dumbledore. I personally think that the sense of total confusion and mystery about snape's true character is very important and I am not sure if the audience not familiar with the books was left curious enough about his loyalties.

I think this is a bit of a distraction here and we're all coming at it from a fan perspective- which is rather biased.

One thing we're overlooking here - I think- is that general movie audiences are pretty much aware that "SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!" I suspect that in this day and age there is no way to avoid that and pull a big "surprise" on anyone who is remotely aware of the HBP series. It's been posted on YouTube, message Forums, spray painted on buildings (I kid you not!) So I don't think we should realistically expect most of the audience to "jump!" back in their seats when this happens. It's just so---- OUT THERE- already. It's a cultural meme!

I ALSO think People are also generally aware that Snape is good.

Think about it. Every.single. interview. with Alan Rickman for years has mentioned SNAPE and despite his attempts to keep the topic at bay- the allusion is that Snape is popular for a reason. Plus, a lot of the reviews of OOP mentioned Snape's menace but a many of them also alluded to Snape as basically a "good guy" in hiding. Then on top of all that- the BUZZ and Media around the release of Deathly Hallows- alone was enough for people to figure Snape out without even having to read the book.

In other words, People generally know what is up with Snape- they just don't know the details. So This movie's task is not IMO to figure out some way to show a new surprise- and I don't think we should expect the audience to react this way. They would be detracting from the story. All they can do is tell the story as it is- in the best way possible.

[phoenix88]

I actually do have a friend that has no idea whether Snape is good or evil, or in fact if there was any question about his loyalties. He has seen all the films but not read any of the books and has managed to somehow stay spoil free. It will be interesting to see what he and some of the other casual viewers feel about Snape in HBP.

If the producers etc do their job well, they should go thru a similar debate as the readers did regarding snape's true allegiance.

I think from rachezee's comments there is enough snape in the film. However, I agree with lc that bellatrix needs to challenge snape in the unbreakable vow. The viewer needs to start wondering from that scene whether snape is working for dumbledore or still loyal to voldemort. From that point on, every time he pops up on screen they should be guessing like we did whose side Snape is really on. I don't see why Harry could verbalize these doubts too to Hermione and Ron when he is talking about Draco.

[tking]

Was it ever mentioned by the test audience if Wormtail was in the Vow scene?

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by tking

Was it ever mentioned by the test audience if Wormtail was in the Vow scene?

Yes, he answers the door to Narcissa and Bella then Snape sends him away by slamming the hallway door in his face.

[9and3quarters]

Originally Posted by Rachezee

Yes I am the reviewer from Leaky. Thank you for the many kind words of welcome!
I have been lurking here for several days and have been enjoying reading all the different thoughts, opinions and concerns you all have been exchanging. The Leaky board is, quite understandably, mostly questions, not discussions at the moment.

I cannot tell you enough though how truly shocked I was that I did enjoy this movie. I seriously debated whether I would go see it being the book purist I am. I found myself cringing my way through OOTP and thought that might not be an experience worth repeating.

Maybe it was my low expectations that allowed me to enjoy this one, or perhaps, just by chance, I wasn't in the middle of rereading Harry Potter for the gazillienth time but well immersed into rereading His Dark Materials when I saw the screening. I don't know. I think it was actually because there was finally something new and beautiful to satisfy even a small part of my insatiable craving for "more harry" which has been starved since the seventh book came out.

I think there will be plenty of people who will find themselves pleasently surprised. And there will always be those who are not. But the aspect of this movie that made it enjoyable for me cannot be accurately conveyed in a movie review. It has to be seen. Experienced first hand.

Only when you see it will you know for sure whether any of the reviews written in past few days were worth worrying or getting excited about.

For now take, try to take what I, and others have written with a grain of salt. Try to take some enjoyment in the fact that there is at least something new Harry related to discuss, debate and think about.

It is such a shame there is so long to wait...

Thanks for the review and thank you even more for this realistic take. I appreciate that you recognize that it needs to be experienced first hand and not too read too much into what reviewers are saying.

HP fans are insatiable beasts because we're always left wanting more.

I believe LadyKrystina said in a previous page had touched on how the death scene with Sirius was well done but that there was no "all CAPS" Harry. Where was the rage with Dumbledore? Where was the "by all means keep destroying my things Harry, I daresay I have too many"? I do hope that there is more emotion infused into the move -- perhaps more reflection on Harry's part after the fact -- Ginny taking Harry's hand away from the scene -- true emotion from Hermione that her man is with another woman.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

I think this is a bit of a distraction here and we're all coming at it from a fan perspective- which is rather biased.

One thing we're overlooking here - I think- is that general movie audiences are pretty much aware that "SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!" I suspect that in this day and age there is no way to avoid that and pull a big "surprise" on anyone who is remotely aware of the HBP series. It's been posted on YouTube, message Forums, spray painted on buildings (I kid you not!) So I don't think we should realistically expect most of the audience to "jump!" back in their seats when this happens. It's just so---- OUT THERE- already. It's a cultural meme!

I ALSO think People are also generally aware that Snape is good.

Think about it. Every.single. interview. with Alan Rickman for years has mentioned SNAPE and despite his attempts to keep the topic at bay- the allusion is that Snape is popular for a reason. Plus, a lot of the reviews of OOP mentioned Snape's menace but a many of them also alluded to Snape as basically a "good guy" in hiding. Then on top of all that- the BUZZ and Media around the release of Deathly Hallows- alone was enough for people to figure Snape out without even having to read the book.

In other words, People generally know what is up with Snape- they just don't know the details. So This movie's task is not IMO to figure out some way to show a new surprise- and I don't think we should expect the audience to react this way. They would be detracting from the story. All they can do is tell the story as it is- in the best way possible.

Please don't assume this. There are many many people out there (my family included) who have no idea about Snape. If someone is not looking for it, they will not find out. We of course think about HP everyday but casual fans do not. They go about their lives and then go see the movies and enjoy them. Snape killing Dumbledore and Snape's true allegiance needs to be both a shock and a surprise in the movie.

to COS, Rachezee! You are exceptionally kind to all of us, and thank you for last night's Snape answers! They made me alot more optimistic about Snape's role in this film.

I have a question if you don't mind:

Is Sirius mentioned at all in this film? Is Harry still mourning him in the beginning of the movie like in the book?

[lcbaseball22]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

I think this is a bit of a distraction here and we're all coming at it from a fan perspective- which is rather biased.

One thing we're overlooking here - I think- is that general movie audiences are pretty much aware that "SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!" I suspect that in this day and age there is no way to avoid that and pull a big "surprise" on anyone who is remotely aware of the HBP series. It's been posted on YouTube, message Forums, spray painted on buildings (I kid you not!) So I don't think we should realistically expect most of the audience to "jump!" back in their seats when this happens. It's just so---- OUT THERE- already. It's a cultural meme!

Well no, I wouldn't expect most of the audience to jump but (if handled well) I would expect about 10-15% of the audience to be shocked by this revelation. HP Book readers consist of about 60% of the film audience and then probably a third or so of the remaining audience (the movie fans) have yet to be spoiled. I know a good amount myself and I'm sure if you asked around you would find quite a few as well

Sadly, your right...a good majority have been spoiled, so it is no longer of the same magnitude as a "Luke, I am your father" plot twist

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by lcbaseball22

Well no, I wouldn't expect most of the audience to jump but (if handled well) I would expect about 10-15% of the audience to be shocked by this revelation. HP Book readers consist of about 60% of the film audience and then probably a third or so of the remaining audience (the movie fans) have yet to be spoiled

Sadly, your right...a good majority have been spoiled, so it is no longer a "Luke, I am your father" magnitude plot twist

Yeah- I think there are still people out there who actually don't know about snape just like my friend I posted about above.

However, I just don't think it's possible to achieve the shocker of "luke, I am your father"(ESB just showed on spike last night btw and my brother once again commented on what a shock that was to him when he first saw it ) mainly because of the internet and the fact the book is already out. I think the closest "luke I am your father" moment was when we read about snape killing DD in the book.

[ladykrystyna]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Rachezee, welcome!

It seems to me that what you are saying, is that the UV scene in the movie does NOT arouse the viewers' suspicions, and further, that the refrain of "Dumbledore trusts Snape" gets play in more than one place. (The DADA announcement, Lupin at the Burrow) as in the book. You know, that's actually reassuring...the concern here has been that the audience will think Snape is a villain from Scene One and that will ruin the shock of the ending for viewers unfamiliar with the book. The end of the movie will surely convince most casual viewers that Snape was not, after all, to be trusted.

Actually, this gels with what I felt reading the book. I was at first unsure what to make of Snape after that UV chapter. Although I'm pretty sure that I was leaning toward "Snape is good."

But my main reason why I know that I must have thinking Snape was good the whole time was my visceral reaction when he AK'd DD on the Tower. I was TOTALLY SHOCKED. COMPLETELY FLOORED.

So if the movie is leaning toward less ambiguity and more "we'll make you believe he is on the good side . . . but wait til you see what happens", then that's fine with me.

I believe LadyKrystina said in a previous page had touched on how the death scene with Sirius was well done but that there was no "all CAPS" Harry. Where was the rage with Dumbledore? Where was the "by all means keep destroying my things Harry, I daresay I have too many"? I do hope that there is more emotion infused into the move -- perhaps more reflection on Harry's part after the fact -- Ginny taking Harry's hand away from the scene -- true emotion from Hermione that her man is with another woman.

I think that's the main thing I will be looking for. When I get that kind of ending, then I will know that they did it right that they actually care about the story. Because when you just gloss over the big things that just happened, well, it shows you don't really care about the story, as much as you do about giving lots of action and other stuff to make a buck. Yeah, I know movies are about making a buck. But PoA is my shining example of how you can do it right, even if there are some missteps.

I mean, except for the partially cheesey ending of Harry on the broom, the emotions were right on in the Shrieking Shack and then during the time travel, up to and including Harry and Sirius' good-bye. It was totally moving.

But GoF was like way UP on the emotion for the graveyard and return and then once all was revealed, it was like . . . nothing. Harry had been through a lot. Could we not have the Hospital scene with Mrs. Weasley there (summoned by DD in lieu of Harry's aunt)? Could we not have a better explanation of Priori Incantatem?

DD's speech in the Great Hall was okay, but I'd rather they had more of what JKR had written (as you can see by my sig, I really like that speech).

After that, forget it - the smirks, the cheering of the other schools (was that even in the book). Then the whole thing with the Trio . . . well, I've said it all before. It took me out of the story.

OoTP did a little bit, too, but it wasn't as bad. It was too short to be as bad as GoF. I didn't have enough time to feel one thing or another.

It just seems like the directors (other than Cuaron) are unwilling to linger on any real emotional scenes in the films. Is it because Dan can't handle it? I doubt it, since I think he did pretty good in PoA.

Speaking of emotional endings in HBP - I was just thinking that I would have liked to have seen Hagrid carrying DD's body and see Ron (crying) holding Hermione while she cried thereby clearing up any ambiguity there might be about their burdgeoning relationship. I always liked that image of those 2. It was so beautiful and touching and makes you realize real quick that Ron is hardly a git. He's just a young man maturing.

[ArryGrotter]

Originally Posted by lcbaseball22

Sadly, your right...a good majority have been spoiled, so it is no longer of the same magnitude as a "Luke, I am your father" plot twist

They might have decided to save that magnitude of a plot twist for DH, when it is discovered it was all planned...

[lcbaseball22]

Originally Posted by phoenix88

Yeah- I think there are still people out there who actually don't know about snape just like my friend I posted about above.

However, I just don't think it's possible to achieve the shocker of "luke, I am your father"(ESB just showed on spike last night btw and my brother once again commented on what a shock that was to him when he first saw it ) mainly because of the internet and the fact the book is already out. I think the closest "luke I am your father" moment was when we read about snape killing DD in the book.

Yes, when we read about it in the book it was certainly one of those moments.

The reason it was such a shocking moment in Star Wars is because there was NO BOOK to have already known/be spoiled...everybody was experiencing the revelation for the first time

I think if HBP was NOT adapted from a book, SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE would go down as the greatest plot twist in film history!

But instead I experienced it in a fantastic book, nearly wet myself () and was screaming with OUTRAGE AND HATRED at Snape

I just hope the film makers haven't ruined that experience for those who remain oblivious ()...I wanna see their reactions


I think for the films, the best way to handle it is have the audiene walk away with the perception that Snape is downright EVIL (that's how I felt after reading the book) But in order to accomplish this, I think they need to introduce more ambiguity...such as including "Bella's Interrogation" at Spinner's End. It sounds as if there are plenty of Snape scenes, however none of them seem to suggest the notion that Snape is EVIL...and therefore the audience will continue to believe Snape is the ally and come to the conclusion that it was pre-arranged..if they don't handle Severus Snape's character very well in HBP, they may very well end up ruining the revelations to come in DH

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by lcbaseball22

Yes, when we read about it in the book it was certainly one of those moments.

The reason it was such a shocking moment in Star Wars is because there was NO BOOK to have already known/be spoiled...everybody was experiencing the revelation for the first time

I think if HBP was NOT adapted from a book, SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE would go down as the greatest plot twist in film history!

But instead I experienced it in a fantastic book, nearly wet myself () and was screaming with OUTRAGE AND HATRED at Snape

I just hope the film makers haven't ruined that experience for those who remain oblivious ()...I wanna see their reactions


I think for the films, the best way to handle it is have the audiene walk away with the perception that Snape is downright EVIL (that's how I felt after reading the book) But in order to accomplish this, I think they need to introduce more ambiguity...such as including "Bella's Interrogation" at Spinner's End. It sounds as if there are plenty of Snape scenes, however none of them seem to suggest the notion that Snape is EVIL...and therefore the audience will continue to believe Snape is the ally and come to the conclusion that it was pre-arranged..if they don't handle Severus Snape's character very well in HBP, they may very well end up ruining the revelations to come in DH

Yes, I agree. When I first read the section of HBP where Snape killed DD I was shocked beyond belief! I remember being worried that there was only very little of the book left and wondering how in the world JKR was going to wrap this all up the way she did all the other books. Little did I know it would end up being a gigantic cliffhanger!

When the unspoiled audience sees Snape kill DD- if the filmakers do this right- they should be shocked and angry. They have to be convinced that Snape is evil at this point just like Harry. It will make the prince's tale in DH that much more touching.

[boushh]

For me, in an ideal world what would happen at the end of this movie would be for the audience to come out split into two camps or hovering somewhere in between. Was there more to this whole thing or not? I know we'd all love to recreate our own experience, and to me that's what would be the best way to come out of this film. It shouldn't be clear cut. I think there is potential for there to be a question as to what just happened and if there was more to it...

To me there seemed to be a real issue of whether this guy was good or bad and if there was more to the whole thing or not... That's what that experience was like between HBP and DH and that's how I feel that year and a half between films should be like for the people that don't decide to flip open DH and see what happens.

Anyway, thank you to Rachezee for all of the great posts. I'm only slightly worried about "Flight of the Prince" and the DD and Snape "arguing" scene, at this point, but overall I think this might end up being a good film.

Edit: Oh and the waitress scene. Can't forget about that one.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by lcbaseball22

I think they need to introduce more ambiguity...such as including "Bella's Interrogation" at Spinner's End. It sounds as if there are plenty of Snape scenes, however none of them seem to suggest the notion that Snape is EVIL...and therefore the audience will continue to believe Snape is the ally and come to the conclusion that it was pre-arranged..if they don't handle Severus Snape's character very well in HBP, they may very well end up ruining the revelations to come in DH

Isn't that a bit of a bit of a big assumption to make, though? There's a massive difference between simply assuming that Snape is good, and assuming that it was all pre-planned.

[arithmancer]

I think lc reflects a popular view from the pre-DH discussions, that Snape could not be good unless it was pre-arranged. How can a murderer be good?

Which is why I do not think the movie needs to make much effort to sell evil Snape anywhere in the first 2/3 of the movie. Make the end of HBP dramatic, show us Albus's suffering and his pleading and Snape's hatred, and I think unspoiled people have a basis to reach the evil!Snape conclusion.

[Fleur du mal]

I agree. A person that isn't into HP AT ALL and somehow managed to remain comletely spoiler-free would not need ANY other evidence of Snape's seeming loyalties than seeing him murder Dumbledore, would they?

[meesha1971]

Kristin - who attended the sneak peak with Mugglenet's Eric - is answering questions about the movie on the Hogwarts Radio Forums.

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by ladykrystyna

Speaking of emotional endings in HBP - I was just thinking that I would have liked to have seen Hagrid carrying DD's body and see Ron (crying) holding Hermione while she cried thereby clearing up any ambiguity there might be about their burdgeoning relationship. I always liked that image of those 2. It was so beautiful and touching and makes you realize real quick that Ron is hardly a git. He's just a young man maturing.

I would have really liked to see that too, but maybe they didn't want to show Hagrid carrying DD because they wanted to save that similar image (Hagrid carrying Harry out of the forest) for DH. Still, having DD's funeral would have been a nice resolution scene after all the drama on the astronomy tower. It would give the audience a breather and a chance to mourn with the other characters for DD. I also think it would have made DD's death all the more devastating.

I agree with you ladykrystyna that they seem to have problems with these "aftermath" sequences. GoF was probably the worst- because you go from the tragedy of Cedric dying to the trio smiling and asking each other to over the summer. It was so strange. OOTP was just so rushed. One minute you're in the ministry, and then they get off the hogwarts express. It just seemed like there was no time for Harry to grieve at all. I hope they don't do the same in HBP.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Kristin - who attended the sneak peak with Mugglenet's Eric - is answering questions about the movie on the Hogwarts Radio Forums.

Thanks meesha. So disappointed with what she had to say about Narcissa. How could they screw that up? I know we had our reservations when we saw that skunk cap but really, the book describes her so perfectly. She's supposed to have that long, platinum blonde hair and fair skin like lucius. O well. She's not the first to say narcissa wasn't very good.

[cgold]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Kristin - who attended the sneak peak with Mugglenet's Eric - is answering questions about the movie on the Hogwarts Radio Forums.

Do you know if they're planning to put up a transcript and if not, can you tell me what she said about Rupert/Ron? Did Kristin write a review?

Cheers