The All-Inclusive HBP Thread, v.12

[boushh]

Originally Posted by yoshi2542

It's not good enough that people might remember it (which they won't, because it wasn't ever really stated in the fifth film). It needs to be made explicit and resolved in a sensible way.

I think people can infer that the prophecy was the reason Harry was almost killed as a child by Voldemort and why he is continuously after this kid. That encompasses almost every film. I'd love it if it was more explicitly stated in OotP but I'm just working with what we have here. Maybe they'll add something in after these test screenings, I don't know... or maybe it will be dropped altogether. Right now I think with two films to go it may be salvaged, since we do have portions of the prophecy and a strong inference that Voldemort is after Harry for a reason besides the fact that he wasn't able to kill him as a baby... Why was he after him in the first place? Because he has the power to vanquish the dark lord and one must kill the other, so Voldemort took the chance as soon as he had it. I think that is what comes across in the film. Adding that Snape was the one who delivered the prophecy to Voldemort after overhearing it shouldn't be that difficult. It can even be added in as a memory, if not just a line from Dumbledore.

There is no way it can be included in DH and have the impact it did in the book with OOTP and now HBP going they way they have. Snape loving Lily is going to be enough of a Deus Ex Machina already, by suddenly involving a prophecy that no one will remember you make it even more so.

I think I have more faith in the movie going audience. It won't have the same impact as the books, that is true, but I'm just making what's best out of what we have really. And since the prophecy already exists in some form, as are actions that are happening because of it, I don't think it'll come out of nowhere. And with the added lines here and some of what they've included and happened upon in the PoA and OotP I don't even think the Lily thing is going to come out of nowhere. I think it'll serve as something that people will look back on and see elements of. Sure, not as much as there is in the books, and that's a shame, but there isn't much any of us can do about what has been in the can ages ago.



As for the comments about the actor performances... I'll wait and judge for myself.

[KlausBaudelaire]

Originally Posted by phrozenone

Kinda Like There's A Big Battle And The Hero Is About To Die And All Of A Sudden An Alien Shows Up And Blows Up The Villian

Don't give Steve Kloves strange ideas!!!

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by ArryGrotter

The reveiwer, though was biased against these actors

I don't think this particular reviewer was biased against gambon. This one was a nonreader. It's the reviewer on leaky who has read the books and admitted she doesn't care for gambon.

[Bscorp]

I am not upset by Harry hiding.

1) he promised Dumbledore he would do what DD tells him to do . Period.
2) Nobody in the story has read the book! LOL! Nobody - not Harry or any of the Order knew what was going to happen here. Dumbledore is a powerfull wizard who knew- rightfully so - that DD would hold his own
3) It looks like by this time in the movie, Snape has set up some trustworthy character. Harry sees him take care of the necklace, He hears Dumbledore state that he treated him after the ring's curse. and Harry knows that Dumbledore WANTS Snape on the scene. Harry is operating under the same mentality that many of us were when he read the book. He is obeying Dumbledore and he is assuming that Snape is there to help.

As for the moment in which Snape approaches. It's not like Snape aimed his wand and went on an EVOL soliloquy in front of Dumbledore. No it was 1,2, and boom- that's it. itis very quick. Nobody would predict that.


I am more curious as to how they will show Draco disarming Dumbledore, presumably DD wasn't caught with his wand aimed at Harry- so how did Draco disarm that powerful wizard?

[boushh]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. BTW Snape loving Lily is far from "contrived" or a "surprise" plot twist that JKR pulled out the hat at the last minute. She planned the whole series around Snape (and DD) story line and the central theme of redemption, love and sarcrifice.

I thought that yoshi meant that it would come out of nowhere in the films because things were cut. Unless I misunderstood. If I did then I completely agree with you.

Originally Posted by Bscorp

I am not upset by Harry hiding.

1) he promised Dumbledore he would do what DD tells him to do . Period.
2) Nobody in the story has read the book! LOL! Nobody - not Harry or any of the Order knew what was going to happen here. Dumbledore is a powerfull wizard who knew- rightfully so - that DD would hold his own
3) It looks like by this time in the movie, Snape has set up some trustworthy character. Harry sees him take care of the necklace, He hears Dumbledore state that he treated him after the ring's curse. and Harry knows that Dumbledore WANTS Snape on the scene. Harry is operating under the same mentality that many of us were when he read the book. He is obeying Dumbledore and he is assuming that Snape is there to help.

I agree with you with pretty much all of the above. The only thing that I don't know about is Snape being set up as a trustworthy character... He seems to be doing trustworthy type things but he also has been shown with Bellatrix and Narcissa without having his loyalties questioned. So I'm not sure how he is going to come across. I hope it's more ambiguous than anything else.

As for the moment in which Snape approaches. It's not like Snape aimed his wand and went on an EVOL soliloquy in front of Dumbledore. No it was 1,2, and boom- that's it. itis very quick. Nobody would predict that.

Exactly...

I am more curious as to how they will show Draco disarming Dumbledore, presumably DD wasn't caught with his wand aimed at Harry- so how did Draco disarm that powerful wizard?

The only thing that I've seen posted about this is that Draco does disarm him and Dumbledore looks startled. I bet he was... Part of his plan just went "poof".

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by boushh

I thought that yoshi meant that it would come out of nowhere in the films because things were cut. Unless I misunderstood. If I did then I completely agree with you.

Oh.. ok. I could see it in that case. I guess.

I agree with you with pretty much all of the above. The only thing that I don't know about is Snape being set up as a trustworthy character... He seems to be doing trustworthy type things but he also has been shown with Bellatrix and Narcissa without having his loyalties questioned. So I'm not sure how he is going to come across. I hope it's more ambiguous than anything else.

Well, What I meant- that for Harry's knowledge and what Harry has seen- and the rest of the Order- they have no reason to See Snape as a threat here. They didn't in the books either and if i recall correctly even Harry thought Snape was there to help at first. I think the audience will be right there in that state of mind. Most of the movie going audiences have a lot more sympathy going for Snape than many of the more- er- passionate readers did at this point in the series. So i think their instinct will be to expect Snape to save the day.

[ladykrystyna]

My 2 Knuts on most of the new info (Gee whiz, I miss one day of checking mugglenet and cosforums and I miss EVERYTHING! )

Anyway,

As with the other HP movies, the reviews are always mixed on the acting. I don't think the Trio is particularly consistent in their acting. I felt that Daniel's best work was in PoA. He was Harry in that movie. The other movies, not so much. I particularly didn't like his performance much in GoF.

To keep this on topic, I'll leave it at that, except to say that I will wait and decide for myself whether the acting is good or not. It is subjective after all.

As to the Harry/Ginny scene: I was a pretty big H/G shipper, even though I was coming in late to the HP party scene. I was pretty happy with H/G in HBP, but no completely because of the way Harry "suddenly" liked Ginny and the way they suddenly broke up. I was also not that happy with the lack of Ginny in DH. But I understood that HP was not a love story (well, it kind of was with Snape/Lily, but not in a traditional sense. It wasn't really the main theme, more of a plot device).

Thinking about their first kiss scene in HBP, I did like the version in the book. But this version doesn't seem that bad, even in light of the fact that we may not get much more than that in the film. And this is why: She's practically absent from DH and even splitting that into 2 parts may actually leave it pretty much that way. For the purpose of the movies, perhaps it was better that we didn't get too much Ginny this time around, so that moviegoers won't be like "What happened to Ginny?" when DH comes out. Perhaps it will feel more resolved on the opening of DH then if we had MORE Ginny.

Does that make any sense?

Also, another point of view: the feeling some of us are getting from "reading" the first kiss scene could simply be because we are reading a script out of context. We aren't seeing it acted out, we aren't privy to the "build up" (and apparently there is one). So maybe, just maybe, the scene will come across better when we see it acted out, rather than just reading the script.

Train scene with Draco: LOVE IT! So glad it's in. It's concise, but to the point and Draco's line about Harry's mom was just nasty! It was brilliant in that regard. I mean, usually Draco and Harry throw such silly barbs at one another, it was nice to actually here a real mean one, to really show how bad Draco can be (even if, in the end, he really wasn't that bad after all).

Overall impression from review of screening:

I am still excited to see it all in place come next year. I've been to a screening or two before and it is sometimes difficult to get the full effect, especially without music or special effects being finished.

Cheers.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

Oh.. ok. I could see it in that case. I guess.

I only semi-agreed since I think that even now there is stuff that you can look back on and see hints of it, and that's not including that new line in HBP. Not as much as the books obviously, but there is stuff there.

Well, What I meant- that for Harry's knowledge and what Harry has seen- and the rest of the Order- they have no reason to See Snape as a threat here. They didn't in the books either and if i recall correctly even Harry thought Snape was there to help at first. I think the audience will be right there in that state of mind. Most of the movie going audiences have a lot more sympathy going for Snape than many of the more- er- passionate readers did at this point in the series. So i think their instinct will be to expect Snape to save the day.

Ah I see what you mean, and I'd agree with you except for that Spinner's End scene the way it has been described so far. It might make some people suspect him really being on the side of the bad guys. I think that the audience will hope that he's going to save the day and just have a bit of wariness about it from what they saw earlier in the film...

Some more Snape, Draco, Harry related stuff was posted earlier today:

Spoiler: show

No there is no insults or jibes between Bellatrix and snape. The only thing I remember clearly is Bella goes to the mantle over the fire place and starts picking things up. Snape snaps at her to "Put that down" and something about being rude and Bella glares at him with a touch of humor but puts it down.

Snape does not question Harry whatsover. He does not even speak to him. No Roonil Waslib sad.gif

Yes Harry overhears Draco and Snape fighting, though not in his invisibility cloak. And what snape says is slightly different and in the book what he says does not happen in the movie (stuff about helpers and crabb and goyle). But I really don't remember what he says exactly.


I think I may have given people the wrong impression about the Sectum Sempra scene when I mentioned Nigel (or I think it was, it could have been some other dorky looking kid). The scene is truly dark and serious, the touch of humor with the kid on the loo was a surprisingly well placed moment of humor as it did not spoil the mood. You think it would but it doesn't. Its only a about 5 seconds of screen time, something tells me it may be cut later, but I think they should leave it in.

Edit: I think the guy with the script leaks may have stopped posting according to his latest post over at that forum...

[Wimsey]

Originally Posted by yoshi2542

I don't know, the whole point in story terms, of the prophecy, that it caused Voldemort to come after Harry, that it set the whole ball rolling, was completely ignored in OOTP.

Well, it was not really relevant to the story of OotP, so it would have been a bad time to bring it up. Moreover, Rowling did not dwell on it there except insofar as it served that story: yes, Harry had been singled out (isolated) from birth. It's not paranoia when you are correct, is it! However, that is because the Prophecy named Harry: not because it named Voldemort.

It is Prince where it becomes particularly important that the Prophecy names Voldemort, too. Voldemort figures into the story of Harry's personal politics in a way very different from everyone else: basically, Voldemort is the centerpiece of a propaganda war. Voldemort wants everyone to think that he is destiny's child, and being named in a prophecy does not hurt that. Harry perceives the confrontation between himself and Voldemort as driven by destiny.

Dumbledore disagrees: and his job is to convince Harry that Voldemort is not an instrument of the gods, but a man: a man more intelligent, potent and ruthless than most other men, but a man nonetheless. It is sort of like the candidate running for office on the "God Wants Me" ticket with the opposition trying to show that he wants apotheosis! In the end, Harry realizes this: the whole bit about Harry realizing the difference between being prodded into the arena and marching out into the arena is where he makes the hard-but-right choice to view Voldemort as his foe rather than his nemesis.

It is worth remembering that many readers did not understand this after reading Order. Neverminding the "the Prophecy is about Neville" crowd, Rowling herself had to point out prior to Prince that the Prophecy was MacBethian: that is, it came true only because one of the parties was aware of it. (A former poster here, Queen Beruthiel, had a nice post about this at another newsgroup about 2 weeks before Rowling made the statement!)

Prince is when all of this is made clear: and thus Prince is when the topic should be addressed.


Speaking of politics, albeit of a different sort.....

The Wall Street Journal had an article about the reaction of fans to Prince's delay. (I am not sure if you need a subscription to read this, as I have one already; if so, then with the mods permission I can post the relevant parts later.) It makes it sound like there is an impressive fan backlash in the making. Indeed, one might fear that their effect on the box office might be noticeable!

However..... they had the same type of article regarding the book series 3+ years ago. Hopefully the mods will forgive me bringing up this particular salty blade (), but long-timers here might remember a certain large demographic of hardcore fandom called "Harmonians." This extinct breed of Harry Potter fan was devoted to the idea that Harry was secretly in love with Hermione.

For those of you who joined subsequently, they were a notable component. Yes, there were whole threads devoted to this (although I do not remember them: that was not my interest!), but they popped up everywhere. For example, we had a great thread (initiated by the above mentioned Queen Beruthiel) about how to adapt Order of the Phoenix: and everytime things came up about dealing with Ron and Hermione or whether we should hint at Harry+Ginny or Harry+Luna, BAM!!! out of the woodworks they would come to inform us that the adaptation could not do this because that the books were not doing this. I have no idea what percent of the hardcore fandom they were, but it was not trivial.

Then came Prince. You might notice that the biggest log-in day at this site was on that day. I think (and I'm not joking) that it was the Harmonians showing up for a mass howl, on their ways to getting banned, plus some of the less-sensitive correct Shippers turning up for a mass taunt. A few of their posts on on the MuggleNet Wall-Of-Shame, still. (I did not participate at all, save where it interfered in a few threads where people asserted that, say, Harry could not be a Horcrux because he was not in love with Hermione and stuff like that: and, no, I'm not making up that example; oh, and I thought Harry was going to wind up with Luna for that book, so I was no more correct than the Harmonians: just a lot less invested!)

The howling was not limited to here! In addition to Internet petitions and a campaign to send Rowling the shredded covers of Prince, they vowed to not buy (as-yet-unnamed) Hallows. The media got wind of this, and they gave the same types of reports that they gave here. Rowling herself put forth a placating comment that they were an important part of the fandom (after some very insensitive interviewer called them demented or deranged or deterministic or something like that.... ). Surely sales of book seven might be imperiled!

Sounds familiar, eh? And look: I mean, did anybody even notice when the last Harry Potter book came out? It was yet another lesson on how much a franchise can lose when it irks hardcore fans.....

[yoshi2542]

Originally Posted by JLTucker

Can you explain how Snape loving Lily is a deus ex machina?

Whoops, I should have been more specific. Based on the movies so far, Snape loving Lily is going to be a Deus Ex Machina if they just do what the book did. It was actually quite cleverly signposted in the novels, it played out well, but we have never even had a hint of such feelings from Snape in the films. Lily has been ignored too, I think the last time she was mentioned by name was in POA. I think it could still work with some very agressive adaptation, but by the time DH rolls around, we have no Dumbledore to give Harry the clues, no interaction between Harry and Snape until the finale, and we also have the problem of the film being split in two, meaning that anything important in the first half risks being forgotten in between the two films. If there is no hint of it until The Prince's Tale, it will seem rather cheap.

Originally Posted by boushh

I think people can infer that the prophecy was the reason Harry was almost killed as a child by Voldemort and why he is continuously after this kid.

I don't think that was clear from the movie at all. In fact I just performaed a little test on non-reader recall. I asked my mum if she could remember why Voldemort is after Harry and she didn't know. I asked if she remembered the prophecy, and she could not recall it. And she saw the movie in the cinema and on DVD! Most people won't have seen the film since it was in theatres. We are talking about a gap of years between movies. Non-readers simply will not recall such details. There was not enough weight given to the prophecy for it to be anything other than forgettable.

Originally Posted by Wimsey

Prince is when all of this is made clear: and thus Prince is when the topic should be addressed.

I agree, but my point was more that if they rely on what was in OOTP, and include Dumbledore's words about the irony of the prophecy in HBP, then the audience is going to get confused.

[Fleur du mal]

ah, the good old days of shipping wars... always made me feel like being in a Monty Python movie (with the guys from the Judaic People's Front versus the Front of the Judaic People, or how were the names, I forgot... ). I guess I'm really lucky I never cared for any of this, because it gives me a chance to lean back and enjoy no matter what's coming in HBP now, between Harry and Ginny. I actually like the way things are looking right now. As I've stated possibly ten times before - for me, the whole romance between them doesn't 'work'. I feel nothing when I read it (and trust me, I'm easily made happy in that respect - big fan of Meg Ryan romcom here) and things can only improve from where I'm sitting. I always found the pacing of that romance odd, too, and if they truly do it like a previous poster suggested they might - keeping things in the open, instead of the book on-out-of-nothing-and-off-again-like-Spiderman-and snog-again-in-DH-and-split-again-like-Spiderman... You see what I mean, right? I really, really prefer it like this.

[ladykrystyna]

It was actually quite cleverly signposted in the novels, it played out well, but we have never even had a hint of such feelings from Snape in the films. Lily has been ignored too, I think the last time she was mentioned by name was in POA. I think it could still work with some very agressive adaptation, but by the time DH rolls around, we have no Dumbledore to give Harry the clues, no interaction between Harry and Snape until the finale, and we also have the problem of the film being split in two, meaning that anything important in the first half risks being forgotten in between the two films. If there is no hint of it until The Prince's Tale, it will seem rather cheap.

I'm going to have to agree with this. Once I caught up with the books after the first 3 movies came out (I'm a late comer BTW), I started to realize that maybe they should have waited until all the books had come out before doing the movies. And I also wonder why JKR didn't push them to add a little bit more of certain things so that it would all wind itself up better in the end. Not everything, mind you, but more of the really crucial stuff.

Like in OOtP - they should have kept SWM in its entirety as they filmed it. That was the first time, I believe, we saw or heard of Snape interacting with Lily at all. From PoA on, it was built up as a James vs. Snape battle.

Many readers figured out SWM. On my own reading, I didn't catch it at all. I just kept thinking it was his worst because of what James did to him, never thinking about Lily at all. It wasn't until I read some essays and threads on this message board that the idea was planted in my mind and I thought it just might be true, although I was never completely wedded to it.

So if they had left that in, that may have been enough to get the cogs working in viewers minds about Lily and about Snape. It might have had to be a bit more obvious so that it would stick through 2 (now 3) final films. But it should have been left in.

For those that don't read the books, it will seem like it came out of nowhere and it may mean that they'll need more exposition in the final DH film to placate viewer-fans (as opposed to reader-fans). If they skip it altogether, they will be hit by criticism.

As for the prophecy: Since it was really MacBethian in the first place, maybe it's better that it is not really harped upon in the movies. Really, it only gives us a glimpse as to why Voldemort targeted Harry as a baby. People may not remember it, but at some point, I find myself just kind of letting myself be led along by the story without completely questioning things that may be missing. Like when I first saw PoA (before I read any of the HP novels) - I didn't even blink when Lupin talked about the Map like he knew what it was despite the lack of explanation. I only noticed it later after I read the book and then watched the movie again and discovered what was missing.

So in this instance, it may just be viewers accepting that Voldemort wants to kill Harry and they don't need to be reminded of the prophecy. Besides for those that really like the movies (even if they don't read the books) and who want to be reminded before the next one comes out, they'll likely rewatch at least the last movie to refresh their memories. I know I do that when a sequel comes out, especially when the previous movie is imperative to an understanding of the next movie.

Just my 2 Knuts.

Cheers.

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

Oh.. ok. I could see it in that case. I guess.


Well, What I meant- that for Harry's knowledge and what Harry has seen- and the rest of the Order- they have no reason to See Snape as a threat here. They didn't in the books either and if i recall correctly even Harry thought Snape was there to help at first. I think the audience will be right there in that state of mind. Most of the movie going audiences have a lot more sympathy going for Snape than many of the more- er- passionate readers did at this point in the series. So i think their instinct will be to expect Snape to save the day.

Hmm.. I'm not sure. According to the leaky reviewer snape was not portrayed as possibly being good. It was the exact opposite- as if people accepted he was on voldemort's side already since the unbreakable vow never had bella questioning his loyalty.

Here's the excerpt:

Spoiler: show

QUOTE(ArryG @ Sep 6 2008, 10:51 PM)
So when is Spinner's End if not before Budleigh Babberton?


It is right after harry arrives at the burrow. I personally did not like the person playing Narcissa, not what I pictured at all. Bellatrix was good but she did not question Snape's loyalty. A big mistake because I don't think many people were unsure of Snapes loyalty. The audience did not seem surprised when he killed dumbledore.

She also comments a bit on the horcruxes.

Spoiler: show

No Hepsibah
Just tom Riddle as a child and then Slughorns memories both the tampered and the real.

Remember Dumbledore is suprised to learn there are 7 horcruxes he gives no real hints to Harry what those may be, not even the locket, because apperently not even he knows, other than the diary and upon learning about the seven he figures out the ring is one too.

I guess since they omitted the gaunts dumbledore never talks about the locket.

For those interested in the romance aspect (montse, meesha. etc.) she also makes some comments about the relationships between the characters.

[

Spoiler: show

SPOILER]That said, I thought the writing and directing for the four characters was very good for establishing the relationships between H/G and R/H. The flirtations and looks and glances between Harry and Ginny (Bonnie Wright did do a decent job though I thought far from superb) were clear as were the looks of longing and jealousy between Ron and Hermione.

The problem, as I saw it was in the chemistry between the actors. I stress again this is just my opinion, but I do not see much if any chemistry between Rupert and Emma. The subtle looks, glances of longing were all there, but when they were together a spark that can not easily be acted was missing. My opinion may be clouded by some interviews I have seen from them, knowing they in real life have no attraction to each other. I tried to keep that out of my mind while watching them, but try as I might I just could not get any sense of a spark of attraction between them.

As for Dan and Bonnie, I felt it was slightly better than Rupert and Emma, but I still longed to see that spark I seen from other happy couples I have known and in other movies I have seen, but it was not quite there. It was not quite as noticeable from Dan, but Bonnie did appear to be masking what looked to me like embarrassment and discomfort at the more intimate and romantic moments. She hid it pretty well, but I just thought not quite well enough.

Did I mention that this is just my opinion? Good.

Well the truth is that the real chemistry seemed to be between Emma and Dan. Now they had chemistry, and it was unfortunate because they were not supposed to. That last scene when they are talking on the top of the tower, there was so much sexual tension especially from Emma that I remember thinking at the time that she must secretly have a crush on Dan. I thought the same when Dan was comforting her after watching Ron and Lavender making out. When they touch each other, that invisible spark, which is missing between Bonnie and Dan and Rupert and Emma, is so bright and electrifying.

But that is just how I saw it, I am sure their will be many who disagree.

Oh and those who have been asking, Harry never asked for permission from Ron. But ron does show his protective nature over Ginny when they are in the Three Broomsticks and Ginny is making out with Dean. He wants to leave and I think he calls Dean a name but I can't remember what.

Speaking of the Three Broomsticks, that set looked new. It was actually the only one I was not very fond of because one wall was covered from top to bottom with stag heads with huge antlers.

Does that disturb anyone else? Harry's father being a stag animagus and Harry's own patronus being a stag, and some set designer thought that decorated a large wall entirely with those heads was a good idea???

[JustAnIllusion]

Originally Posted by Fury

That RoR kiss scene is a bit confusing to me. I will wait for my response to that scene until I see it.

IMO, it would work a tad bit better if they added the book kiss sometime later in the story, so Ginny would at least know that Harry reciprocated her feelings. If it turns out being just the RoR kiss in the final cut of the movie, however (and I assume it will be), I really hope it isn't Ginny doing the goodbye kiss in DH. Now that she made the first move, her making the second would do nothing for her character; she walks away in devastation, and no girl in her right mind (or who isn't way too forward for her own good!)would actually try for another go! That is, unless Harry indicated that he returned her feelings.

Nevertheless, despite me not really sure how I like this new set up, I do think it can be okay. In the noble works of Tim Gunn: the film guys just have to make it work!

[boushh]

Originally Posted by yoshi2542

Whoops, I should have been more specific. Based on the movies so far, Snape loving Lily is going to be a Deus Ex Machina if they just do what the book did. It was actually quite cleverly signposted in the novels, it played out well, but we have never even had a hint of such feelings from Snape in the films. Lily has been ignored too, I think the last time she was mentioned by name was in POA. I think it could still work with some very agressive adaptation, but by the time DH rolls around, we have no Dumbledore to give Harry the clues, no interaction between Harry and Snape until the finale, and we also have the problem of the film being split in two, meaning that anything important in the first half risks being forgotten in between the two films. If there is no hint of it until The Prince's Tale, it will seem rather cheap.

I agree that it won't be as good as the books, that's for sure. However, it may not come across too badly. While people may forget things when years go by, they can also remember things that stand out from a visual medium. So if something is done well enough and strikes a chord with people and gets them talking. They'll remember.

So if you have Snape saying some line that mentions Harry's mother but insults his father and delivers it well, then it might make people think and others may not. That's true with any movie that doesn't hold your hand and put you through all the paces. So if it makes people think and they go back and watch OotP or catch it on TV or something and happen to see an Occlumency lesson that shows Snape freaking out about James after just having seen the Mirror of Erised scene it might make them say, "Wait a second..." So there is stuff there. Not a lot, but there is stuff there.

I don't think that was clear from the movie at all. In fact I just performaed a little test on non-reader recall. I asked my mum if she could remember why Voldemort is after Harry and she didn't know. I asked if she remembered the prophecy, and she could not recall it. And she saw the movie in the cinema and on DVD! Most people won't have seen the film since it was in theatres. We are talking about a gap of years between movies. Non-readers simply will not recall such details. There was not enough weight given to the prophecy for it to be anything other than forgettable.

It may be true for part of the audience, but not for all of them. Some people will re-watch these films between releases. Others will go with their friends that have better memories or know the books. Should the films rely on this type of situation? No. However, in some ways it's a necessity when it comes to stories with large arcs like this. They didn't deliver the prophecy bit well enough in OotP and in HBP apparently, but there might still be enough to piece things together if one refreshed their memory. And when you are going in on the 6th, 7th and 8th film here people who care will try and do that. They aren't going to go into this when they remember nothing and if they do then it's the problem of the audience and not the film in some ways. They cannot hand hold people through every film.

How many of you re-watch the films before you go see the next one? Better yet, how many of you read the book before you go and see the film. And one more... how many of you would re-read the series before the next book would come out? People refresh their memories if they care enough. And if they didn't and happen to like the movie HBP they might go and rent the rest and see HBP again and get more out of it the second time. It happens.

I've complained about the issue with the prophecy too, but I'm over it and I've seen how it can work in an OK way, so I'll wait and be annoyed later if it comes across badly when this series is over.


phoenix88, I don't take the comment about most people not being surprised that seriously. This person can't know how everyone in the audience reacted. Plus, some of them might know the story and so are not surprised. Of course, it could be like she says too, but I think it's too soon to tell. Especially with an unfinished scene that may have been distracting to watch. I'm personally thinking that between what is shown in this film and in the other films, Snape is going to come across as ambiguous until he kills Dumbledore and then people are going to think he's a bad guy, unless there is enough in between the lines to think otherwise.

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by yoshi2542

Whoops, I should have been more specific. Based on the movies so far, Snape loving Lily is going to be a Deus Ex Machina if they just do what the book did. It was actually quite cleverly signposted in the novels, it played out well, but we have never even had a hint of such feelings from Snape in the films. Lily has been ignored too, I think the last time she was mentioned by name was in POA. I think it could still work with some very agressive adaptation, but by the time DH rolls around, we have no Dumbledore to give Harry the clues, no interaction between Harry and Snape until the finale, and we also have the problem of the film being split in two, meaning that anything important in the first half risks being forgotten in between the two films. If there is no hint of it until The Prince's Tale, it will seem rather cheap.

Ok, I get what you mean here. Yeah. I don't know. There was that one image of Snape in the Mirror of Erised, that Yates included Brilliantly into OOP. Then there's this new additoin with Snape chiding Harry "You may have your mother's eyes..." etc- let's wait and see how that plays out as well. Perhaps the line is more effective than we can guess right now from viewers early reports?

But mmm yeah, I can't think of anywhere there have been any clues. I guess they're betting on the surprise factor. It's a choice in story telling- guess- we can only wait to see how it plays out in DH? But it will reveal in the last movie. So if audience's don't like it- they can't say "I'll never see another Harry Potter movie again!"

Originally Posted by yoshi2542

I don't think that was clear from the movie at all. In fact I just performed a little test on non-reader recall. I asked my mum if she could remember why Voldemort is after Harry and she didn't know. I asked if she remembered the prophecy, and she could not recall it. And she saw the movie in the cinema and on DVD! Most people won't have seen the film since it was in theatres. We are talking about a gap of years between movies. Non-readers simply will not recall such details. There was not enough weight given to the prophecy for it to be anything other than forgettable.

Yes I had the same impression from my Mom. Funny how that works. But she didn't really seem bothered by the lack of information either. She was more intrigued about the idea that Snape was an "outsider" who was picked on as a kid.

If they chose to expose the full impact of the prophecy, they can do so in The Prince's Tale. They can show that Snape loved Lily, and he essentially got her killed by delivering this Prohpecy to Voldemort. This and his dedication to harry from that point on- will all neatly play into how and why Harry came to have a piece of Voldy's soul in him and how the Power of LOVE works in the story. It all ties together- so I don't see why they can't wrap it all up in that last big revelation.

[JustAnIllusion]

Originally Posted by CrazyMuggle

Those two script leaks were great (I especially liked the Draco on the train bit.) Something that hasn't been brought up that I've been wondering about is whether or not Cho is in this? I know she's been cast but is there any sort of closure to her and Harry's relationship? They didn't really end it properly in OOTP.

I was curious about Cho's place in the movie as well... though I never really thought she should've had one to begin with. From what I've seen, none of the reviewers mentioned her. That leads me to believe that either, a: she was so easily forgotten that they easily forgot her () or b: the Yates administration saw the light and cut her character from the movie.

Originally Posted by Phrozenone

Spoiler: show

I can see it being against book Harry's personality but not movie Harry's. You must admit they have their differences and they never really set up Harry's whole 'saving people complex' in the films. I doubt it'll make Harry look bad because he was doing what Dumbledore told him and last film he saw Dumbledore and Voldemort fight so he knows DUmbledore is more than capable of handling a few Death Eaters. Besides through the majority of the scene it's basically Draco so Harry knows Dumbledore can handle him. Now it's when the Death Eaters show up that things get interesting, but now I"m wondering how long after they show up does Snape appear? hmmm

Anywho I"m still excited..will continue to be..and probably love the movie to death once I see it Now the question is will it surpass POA as my favorite...

I have to disagree about the fact that Harry hasn't been known to 'play the hero' in the movies. In the fourth, Newell made sure that our moral fibered hero saved the other people in the black lake, and that 'saving people complex' is the only excuse for him doing so. Not to mention, OotP features Harry's reckless decision to go and save Sirius, without even dropping by Hagrid's hut and asking him for help first.

The astronomy tower totally undermines all of this, and Harry looks like a person who actually behaves. Harry is a rebel! He would not listen to Dumbledore; this trait, a lack of obedience he got from his father, has been featured in the movies as well and now it is thrown out the window too.

The tragedy of Dumbledore's death is all the more numbing to Harry because he could do nothing to stop it. Yates is cutting out all his deeper than a puddle themes, if you ask me.

[ladykrystyna]

Originally Posted by phoenix88

Hmm.. I'm not sure. According to the leaky reviewer snape was not portrayed as possibly being good. It was the exact opposite- as if people accepted he was on voldemort's side already since the unbreakable vow never had bella questioning his loyalty.

Here's the excerpt:

Spoiler: show

QUOTE(ArryG @ Sep 6 2008, 10:51 PM)
So when is Spinner's End if not before Budleigh Babberton?


It is right after harry arrives at the burrow. I personally did not like the person playing Narcissa, not what I pictured at all. Bellatrix was good but she did not question Snape's loyalty. A big mistake because I don't think many people were unsure of Snapes loyalty. The audience did not seem surprised when he killed dumbledore.

She also comments a bit on the horcruxes.

Spoiler: show

No Hepsibah
Just tom Riddle as a child and then Slughorns memories both the tampered and the real.

Remember Dumbledore is suprised to learn there are 7 horcruxes he gives no real hints to Harry what those may be, not even the locket, because apperently not even he knows, other than the diary and upon learning about the seven he figures out the ring is one too.

I guess since they omitted the gaunts dumbledore never talks about the locket.

For those interested in the romance aspect (montse, meesha. etc.) she also makes some comments about the relationships between the characters.

[

Spoiler: show

SPOILER]That said, I thought the writing and directing for the four characters was very good for establishing the relationships between H/G and R/H. The flirtations and looks and glances between Harry and Ginny (Bonnie Wright did do a decent job though I thought far from superb) were clear as were the looks of longing and jealousy between Ron and Hermione.

The problem, as I saw it was in the chemistry between the actors. I stress again this is just my opinion, but I do not see much if any chemistry between Rupert and Emma. The subtle looks, glances of longing were all there, but when they were together a spark that can not easily be acted was missing. My opinion may be clouded by some interviews I have seen from them, knowing they in real life have no attraction to each other. I tried to keep that out of my mind while watching them, but try as I might I just could not get any sense of a spark of attraction between them.

As for Dan and Bonnie, I felt it was slightly better than Rupert and Emma, but I still longed to see that spark I seen from other happy couples I have known and in other movies I have seen, but it was not quite there. It was not quite as noticeable from Dan, but Bonnie did appear to be masking what looked to me like embarrassment and discomfort at the more intimate and romantic moments. She hid it pretty well, but I just thought not quite well enough.

Did I mention that this is just my opinion? Good.

Well the truth is that the real chemistry seemed to be between Emma and Dan. Now they had chemistry, and it was unfortunate because they were not supposed to. That last scene when they are talking on the top of the tower, there was so much sexual tension especially from Emma that I remember thinking at the time that she must secretly have a crush on Dan. I thought the same when Dan was comforting her after watching Ron and Lavender making out. When they touch each other, that invisible spark, which is missing between Bonnie and Dan and Rupert and Emma, is so bright and electrifying.

But that is just how I saw it, I am sure their will be many who disagree.

Oh and those who have been asking, Harry never asked for permission from Ron. But ron does show his protective nature over Ginny when they are in the Three Broomsticks and Ginny is making out with Dean. He wants to leave and I think he calls Dean a name but I can't remember what.

Speaking of the Three Broomsticks, that set looked new. It was actually the only one I was not very fond of because one wall was covered from top to bottom with stag heads with huge antlers.

Does that disturb anyone else? Harry's father being a stag animagus and Harry's own patronus being a stag, and some set designer thought that decorated a large wall entirely with those heads was a good idea???

Maybe it's better to end the movie with the viewer-fans (as opposed to reader-fans) believing the whole time that Snape was bad. Books are a good place to get all deep and complicated. But movies, maybe not so much. Most movie-goers probably don't like Snape and think he's bad already, so they just kept with that theme and the surprise will be at the end of DH Part 2.

Just a thought.

Although, I have to say that even though I could easily believe Snape to be bad when I read HBP, I was totally shocked when he killed DD. Totally shocked. So much so, and I remember this vividly, moments after I put down HBP after finishing it, I turned on the TV and PoA was on HBO. I saw Snape (Rickman) and my stomach turned and I was like looking at the screen with such loathing! Talk about really getting into the story!

As to the romance, well I never saw anybody really have a spark with anybody else in the HP movies. Many people thought that Kloves showed some spark between Harry and Hermione and that's why many believed they would, as they say, hook up. But when I saw CoS (and I had not yet read the books) and I saw the last scene where Hermione hugs Harry, but awkwardly hugs Ron, I thought - well, they (H & R) like each other! Not that there was "spark" per se, but I didn't see any Harmonian bias at all. I thought there was some nice tension in PoA, GoF and OoTP. Short, not too much time spent, but it was there. Actually, it seemed to follow what was in the books - there seemed to be more evidence of Ron liking Hermione than of Hermione liking Ron. Hermione seemed to hold her cards close to her chest, as it were. Ron seemed to show more outward signs. The only thing I remember was from GoF, the book, when she didn't like Fleur kissing Ron. But even that was written in a way that reasonable minds could differ. Oh, and the Yule Brawl scene, but that was still rather subjective and not as clear to me as it was to others.

So I guess, as the author stated, it will be a subjective reading of the acting.

And really, I mean, the Trio are "adults" per se, but their dating experience and love experience is decidely limited and it probably took a lot for them to generate any spark whatsoever. Actors that have been doing it for decades have a better chance of carrying it off and even they don't do it all the time.

So I'll reserve judgment on that one as well.

Same with Gambon. Not a big fan. He improved a little in OoTP, but we shall see.

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by ladykrystyna

My 2 Knuts on most of the new info (Gee whiz, I miss one day of checking mugglenet and cosforums and I miss EVERYTHING! )

Anyway,

As with the other HP movies, the reviews are always mixed on the acting. I don't think the Trio is particularly consistent in their acting. I felt that Daniel's best work was in PoA. He was Harry in that movie. The other movies, not so much. I particularly didn't like his performance much in GoF.

To keep this on topic, I'll leave it at that, except to say that I will wait and decide for myself whether the acting is good or not. It is subjective after all.

As to the Harry/Ginny scene: I was a pretty big H/G shipper, even though I was coming in late to the HP party scene. I was pretty happy with H/G in HBP, but no completely because of the way Harry "suddenly" liked Ginny and the way they suddenly broke up. I was also not that happy with the lack of Ginny in DH. But I understood that HP was not a love story (well, it kind of was with Snape/Lily, but not in a traditional sense. It wasn't really the main theme, more of a plot device).

Thinking about their first kiss scene in HBP, I did like the version in the book. But this version doesn't seem that bad, even in light of the fact that we may not get much more than that in the film. And this is why: She's practically absent from DH and even splitting that into 2 parts may actually leave it pretty much that way. For the purpose of the movies, perhaps it was better that we didn't get too much Ginny this time around, so that moviegoers won't be like "What happened to Ginny?" when DH comes out. Perhaps it will feel more resolved on the opening of DH then if we had MORE Ginny.

Does that make any sense?

Also, another point of view: the feeling some of us are getting from "reading" the first kiss scene could simply be because we are reading a script out of context. We aren't seeing it acted out, we aren't privy to the "build up" (and apparently there is one). So maybe, just maybe, the scene will come across better when we see it acted out, rather than just reading the script.


Cheers.

I agree with you about the kiss. I wasn't much of an H/G shipper actually. Like you I felt the book rushed their relationship. I was hoping the film would build upon what was written in the book. After reading what the reviewers wrote; however, it seems like they altered almost the entire development of their relationship. There is no feistiness to Ginny's character at all according to the screeners, and in fact Harry and Ginny apparently don't date period thru the course of the film. Despite that, if they do something to enhance their relationship in DH and make the viewer want to support a romance between the two I'll probably be fine with it.

The changes in the Snape/Harry relationship and the way the climax plays out are what bother me more actually.

[JustAnIllusion]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

I am not upset by Harry hiding.

1) he promised Dumbledore he would do what DD tells him to do . Period.
2) Nobody in the story has read the book! LOL! Nobody - not Harry or any of the Order knew what was going to happen here. Dumbledore is a powerfull wizard who knew- rightfully so - that DD would hold his own
3) It looks like by this time in the movie, Snape has set up some trustworthy character. Harry sees him take care of the necklace, He hears Dumbledore state that he treated him after the ring's curse. and Harry knows that Dumbledore WANTS Snape on the scene. Harry is operating under the same mentality that many of us were when he read the book. He is obeying Dumbledore and he is assuming that Snape is there to help.

As for the moment in which Snape approaches. It's not like Snape aimed his wand and went on an EVOL soliloquy in front of Dumbledore. No it was 1,2, and boom- that's it. itis very quick. Nobody would predict that.

But Harry never obeys. And seriously, would a kid who did an Unforgivable on a death eater because that DE was impolite to McGonagall sit there and let Draco Malfoy bully Dumbledore? It's just not in Harry's character.