The All-Inclusive HBP Thread, v.12

[deansboy]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I don't think Shell Cottage will be a problem though. Ron's going to go to his family regardless so it's likely that they will just move that to wherever the Weasleys are staying - the Burrow or Aunt Muriel's - not sure which they will use. Alternatively, they could have the twins living at Shell Cottage - having moved out on their own because their business has been so successful. Either way, I think it's most likely they'll go to wherever the Weasleys are.

You know it's amazing that I never thought of Fred and George? It makes sense, or at least more sense than him going back home since we know he can't. He said it, how would his family, his mother especially, look at him if he came back having admitted that he left them high and dry?

Fred and George create an out since reintroducing Fleur and adding Bill (He's honestly been mentioned, what, once and pictured once?) takes more time than just using current characters who don't have much to do.

[phoenix88]

[quote]

Originally Posted by ThaiHPFan

At the moment, my problem is the film is not about how it alters the book's storyline. I actually ignore most part of the negative reviews that say the film is bad because 'it changes this and that', 'this line is cut', 'this character appears too briefly', 'we don't get to hear about the rotfang conspiracy', etc. What I worry about most is how the romance parts seem to outweigh the dark parts of the film. I don't care about DD using clam or Harry using lumos maxima in the cave, but I am concern about the fact that there is not enough buildup for the scene itself. I've heard that the cave scene is well-acted and directed, but all the good stuff will be wasted if the audiences don't understand the significance of Horcruxes and Harry's mission.
QUOTE]

I see what you're saying and I agree. Some details (i.e. the clam ) I can overlook. Harry not being immobilized is tough to stomach, but I can live with the details being changed as long as the underlying story of harry delving into Voldemort's past with dumbledore to understand how to defeat him is not lost. It's strange that the teaser clearly focused on that, but the actual movie based on the reviewers' comments seems to miss this entirely. I wonder how the teaser could be so on the mark but the actual film not convey the main point of the book.

[Hysteria]

I just watched Moulin Rouge! for the 100th time and am totally convinced that Jim Broadbent is perfect for Slughorn (he played Zidler in MR). I have faith in his ability.

You know it's amazing that I never thought of Fred and George? It makes sense, or at least more sense than him going back home since we know he can't.

I didn't think of that either. That's a great idea.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by Hysteria

I just watched Moulin Rouge! for the 100th time and am totally convinced that Jim Broadbent is perfect for Slughorn (he played Zidler in MR). I have faith in his ability.

So do I. The moment I heard that he was cast as Slughorn, I cheered. I love him in everything I've seen him in. I think he's incredibly talented.

Re: Ron going to Fred and George's in DH

I didn't think of that either. That's a great idea.

Ditto!

[9and3quarters]

ah, it IS subjective. I had tears in my eyes when Sirius had died in the movie, while it left me absolutely cold when reading the same incident. The other way round, the fact that Dumbledore's dead didn't even surprise me, only the WHOdidit came as a shock. If they can manage as much as wringing a single tear from me over that one, they're good as far as I'm concerned

Interesting perspective Fleur, I was devastated in the movie when Sirius died. I felt a REAL loss of a character but was NOT as moved in the text so I'm right there with you on that point. I agree, too, that DD's death will not shake my core as much as watching everyone else's reaction to what it means that he is dead.

Maybe I'm being a bit Polly Positive here but I'm hearing a lot of negative feelings toward the movie -- mostly about what the reviews have said. I am glad that people are excited about the script leaks but does anyone feel excited/hopeful toward the movie at all?

Originally Posted by CrazyMuggle

Don't immediately shout "THIS MOVIE IS GOING TO SUCK! YATES RUINED EVERYTHING!" Give it some time and hear more reviews from both fans/non-fans before you jump to conclusions. I'm going to try to do the same as well and keep my expectations at moderate/low.

Thank you crazymuggle!!!! Although I'm not going to keep my expectations low, I'm so glad someone else shares the feelings that take reviews with a grain of salt since they are not based on fact, rather they are based on opinion.

I'm not trying to 'poo-poo' on anyone's opinions here: everyone is entitled to their opinion but if there's anyone out there with anything good to say about what they've heard so far be it script leaks, confirmed facts, etc -- voice it.

[boushh]

New post from TLC reviewer! Some good, some not so good (though I maintain that most people in that audience knew the ending of this book + the scene is unfinished and may lessen the impact of it...).

Spoiler: show

I believe you wanted to know how well the film told the story?

I would say extremely well. I will give this to all the changes and additions, it was almost as though there were enough of them to make it a whole new way to tell the story of the Half-Blood prince. I really tried to tell everyone, but perhaps not well enough, that as an admitted purist I was really pleasantly surprised by how engaging and exciting this movie was. No it was not the same exact story I read, but within moments of it starting I found that I really did not care (and I thought I would care). It's the same story, but a different way of telling it. And overall it was very well done.

The movie makes sense; it flows from scene to scene in a very fluid way, not too long on any point not too short either. And it told the story of the Half-Blood Prince in a new and exciting way. The movie leaves us in no question about the importance of the potions book to Harry and his success in class and that is where he learned about Sectum Sempra, although his horror to find out it was snapes could have been a bit stronger, but was still apparent. Draco's struggle is between trying to be fierce deatheater and his conscience and fear of his task is extremely well conveyed. And it is clear that Harry's next task to find and destroy the horcruxes is something he simply must do to end Voldemort and his reign of terror on the Wizarding and muggle world. And how difficult and dangerous that mission will be.

The only thing that I don't think was well conveyed was a true uncertainty of whether Snape is good or bad. The audience's reaction kind of confirmed this as there was no gasp of surprise when he kills Dumbledore. I personally think that the sense of total confusion and mystery about snape's true character is very important and I am not sure if the audience not familiar with the books was left curious enough about his loyalties.

The addition of humorous moments at the most serious times like the Sectum Sempra scene were so brilliantly placed that somehow they did not ruin the dark and dangerous mood of the scene. It was a very J.K. Rowling thing to do, even if she did not contrive it herself.

And, I know I am being vague but my inability to express myself well in writing is a handicap here, but the film was truly stunningly beautiful. The grounds, the lighting, and colors were in perfect balance to put us in the right mood for the each scene. Similar to POA in looks and beauty but it had a bit more of a hint of (hmmm, I am cringing using this word, but) magic in the air. (Cringing again, but can't seem to get myself to consult a thesaurus just now).

Still more positives than negatives, IMHO. It may come down to how accepting we are of changes and how well they were executed in the film, which again may be a subjective thing.

[ladykrystyna]

ah, it IS subjective. I had tears in my eyes when Sirius had died in the movie, while it left me absolutely cold when reading the same incident. The other way round, the fact that Dumbledore's dead didn't even surprise me, only the WHOdidit came as a shock. If they can manage as much as wringing a single tear from me over that one, they're good as far as I'm concerned

Well, it wasn't the actual death scenes and very immediate aftermath of those scenes that I had a problem with either in OoTP or GoF. I thought they were both done well.

It was the rest of the film after it. I'm still grumpy about the fact that we didn't get CAPSLOCK!Harry in OoTP. I wanted to see him lose it in DD's office. That's why that scene with DD and the short and almost non-existent explanation of the Prophecy makes me

We didn't see Harry go off by himself and really mourn Sirius. Like I said, they build you up with this great death scene and then it's like it never happened. I don't need 4 endings like Return of the King, but gee whiz, something that shows some emotional development that seems realistic would be nice.

The same for GoF - the graveyard scene was great, coming back on the portkey was great, Cedric's father's anguish cuts me like a knife. But they skip any really discussion AGAIN between DD and Harry about what went on in the graveyard and I really would have liked to see that hug that Mrs. Weasley gave Harry. That's one of these scenes in the books that always brings me to tears. Build up and let down and that's 2 times in a row.

Instead we get Power Granger saying "Everything's going to change now isn't it?" with a smirk on her face. Then Harry smirks and Ron smirks. What's with the SMIRKS! Cedric is dead, Voldemort is back! Holy Schnikeys!

Sorry.



But when I read that there is a scene in HBP where Harry goes to DD's body and Ginny is there, well, that makes me feel a bit better about this one. Also, that scene with Harry in DDs office holding the wand (if that is still in) seems appropriate. I'm not so worried about the funeral much and I think it might work better at the beginning of DH because it will jump right into DD's past - as soon as someone's dead, everyone talks smack, right?

So that's my real beef is the emotional let down that I've had 2 films in a row.

But I do agree that we can read too much into the reviews. It can be quite the roller coaster ride. But we are reading things out of context about a medium that is VISUAL.

Perhaps the people complaining about the romance are the ones that didn't like the idea that they left it in anyway and therefore were more apt to concentrate on it rather than what they wanted to see.

I think the balance will be fine. And remember, this is like witnessing an accident - you only get to see it once and then give your impression. It's very hard to do and really give a full account of what happened with any real depth and detail.

I'm still holding out hope that it will be a good film. Not necessarily a great film, but a good film.

BTW: I, too, was more moved in the movie when Sirius died then in the book. I know it may be blasphemy, but Sirius was not really one of my favorite characters. But the movie, visually, really did it for me and I cry a little each time, mostly because of Harry's reaction and also Lupin's reaction (especially if that was planned - he has that look on his face like "I'm the last [real] Marauder left. My friends are getting picked off one by one.").

And, yeah, DD's death was not really a surprise to me because I figured it was he that died when "death rumors" were floating around. I was completely shocked about the WHO.

BOUSHH,

Thanks for that review. It seems similar to how I felt about PoA - not exactly the same story, but a different way to tell it and still good. Especially since PoA is STILL my favorite of the HP movies because it feels like a MOVIE of the book rather than a blow by blow scene by scene re-telling of the book.

Here's another way of putting it - in SS, CoS, GoF and OoTP, it was often that I felt that the actors kind of "knew" what was coming so that they looked like they were acting, especially the younger actors. It felt like, "Okay, she's going to say this and he's going to say this and then I'm going to say this."

PoA felt like it was a story and that no one knew what was going to happen next so it was the best acted out of all the films (even if I thought Gambon was a little off).

Of course I always wonder if my view would be the same had I not read any of the books before seeing the movies - for the 1st 3 movies, I had not yet read any of the books, so it was all new to me.

[tking]

I love all the comments on this film's apparent 'beauty'. If we don't have a decent story at the end of it, we will at least have a beautiful film to look at.

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by boushh

New post from TLC reviewer! Some good, some not so good (though I maintain that most people in that audience knew the ending of this book + the scene is unfinished and may lessen the impact of it...).

Spoiler: show

I believe you wanted to know how well the film told the story?

I would say extremely well. I will give this to all the changes and additions, it was almost as though there were enough of them to make it a whole new way to tell the story of the Half-Blood prince. I really tried to tell everyone, but perhaps not well enough, that as an admitted purist I was really pleasantly surprised by how engaging and exciting this movie was. No it was not the same exact story I read, but within moments of it starting I found that I really did not care (and I thought I would care). It's the same story, but a different way of telling it. And overall it was very well done.

The movie makes sense; it flows from scene to scene in a very fluid way, not too long on any point not too short either. And it told the story of the Half-Blood Prince in a new and exciting way. The movie leaves us in no question about the importance of the potions book to Harry and his success in class and that is where he learned about Sectum Sempra, although his horror to find out it was snapes could have been a bit stronger, but was still apparent. Draco's struggle is between trying to be fierce deatheater and his conscience and fear of his task is extremely well conveyed. And it is clear that Harry's next task to find and destroy the horcruxes is something he simply must do to end Voldemort and his reign of terror on the Wizarding and muggle world. And how difficult and dangerous that mission will be.

The only thing that I don't think was well conveyed was a true uncertainty of whether Snape is good or bad. The audience's reaction kind of confirmed this as there was no gasp of surprise when he kills Dumbledore. I personally think that the sense of total confusion and mystery about snape's true character is very important and I am not sure if the audience not familiar with the books was left curious enough about his loyalties.

The addition of humorous moments at the most serious times like the Sectum Sempra scene were so brilliantly placed that somehow they did not ruin the dark and dangerous mood of the scene. It was a very J.K. Rowling thing to do, even if she did not contrive it herself.

And, I know I am being vague but my inability to express myself well in writing is a handicap here, but the film was truly stunningly beautiful. The grounds, the lighting, and colors were in perfect balance to put us in the right mood for the each scene. Similar to POA in looks and beauty but it had a bit more of a hint of (hmmm, I am cringing using this word, but) magic in the air. (Cringing again, but can't seem to get myself to consult a thesaurus just now).

Still more positives than negatives, IMHO. It may come down to how accepting we are of changes and how well they were executed in the film, which again may be a subjective thing.

That actually sounds a lot more positive. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that there is no ambiguity in Snape's loyalties. That mystery was one of the most compelling issues of HBP. I remember debating that topic endlessly between HBP and DH.

[arithmancer]

I would agree with boushh that this is very hard to judge, because the audience may not be mostly ignorant of what happened in the end of HBP. The altered scene, as described, seems to offer scope for the same sort of argument as was made in defense of Snape by readers of the book - that Snape's actions protected Harry, and that, as proven by the Cave scene...Albus asking someone to kill him is well within the realm of the possible.

[ladykrystyna]

Originally Posted by phoenix88

That actually sounds a lot more positive. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that there is no ambiguity in Snape's loyalties. That mystery was one of the most compelling issues of HBP. I remember debating that topic endlessly between HBP and DH.

Well, I think they had a hard time of it, because, honestly, the only time that Snape is ever suspected of anything is the 1st movie. Obviously he was innocent and they never really explored his ambiguity after that.

In GoF, they threw in Karkaroff's statement that Snape was a Death Eater and that DD vouched for him and Karkaroff showing Snape his tattoo.

But that's it. Snape otherwise just comes across as someone who didn't like Harry's father and in OoTP we find out why. We don't get the scene in GoF where DD asks Snape to resume his double agent duties, which would have helped a bit.

In other words, we're dealing with a large story arc over 7 books and much of that has been left out of the movies so it would have been difficult to give him much ambiguity. I'm sure they tried, but it was difficult. Just like adapting DH will still be difficult because they left out so much previously, they're going to have to re-work it in a serious way.

[tking]

Snape's loyalty was not properly discussed in GoF. A scene involving the trio talking about events in the Pensieve would've helped.

OoTP did better in this matter. We left Snape on that magnificent note, "No idea". Is he truly ignorant, or merely too bitter to react? However he comes off more as a mean teacher with a grudge rather than a man who is questioned and mistrusted by all save Dumbledore.

So really, HBP had little chance in correcting this. Sure the Vow scene could help. But then that detracts from the pace of the film. And really what is it's use when Snape so elegantly and convincingly dismisses each of Bellatrix's qualms? If, by the end of the scene, he convinces us that he is on Voldemort's side, then why bother with the interrogation at all?

Plus, it would be all of a sudden. Just now all this backlash on Snape's loyalty, when it hasn't been questioned at all since PS? We have two separate universes going on here: book and film. People should stop muddling the two.

[MasterOfDeath]

But come on, HBP could have done something to make Snape ambiguous. I can't believe we're going to lose all that great drama between Harry and Dumbledore about trusting Snape. Doesn't Harry suspect Snape of helping Draco? Why couldn't they hype that up or something?

[deansboy]

Originally Posted by ladykrystyna

In other words, we're dealing with a large story arc over 7 books and much of that has been left out of the movies so it would have been difficult to give him much ambiguity. I'm sure they tried, but it was difficult. Just like adapting DH will still be difficult because they left out so much previously, they're going to have to re-work it in a serious way.

I have to disagree wit them trying. It was widely known that Rickman had had personal chats with Rowling about the character and four books were out by the time the first movie was made, they knew what was up with him and chose to ignore it.

I've said it countless times and tking mentioned it, he comes off as the teacher the kids hate but not the cruel, vindictive and brave man that he is. He's the most complex character in the series and they chose to let him fall by the wayside. They made these movies with the no intention to fulfill it's promise on the screen, give us the overall picture yes but this is the most glaring omission, the one that truly hurts the series because Snape was essentially the beginning and the end to the events.

[tking]

Originally Posted by MoD

But come on, HBP could have done something to make Snape ambiguous. I can't believe we're going to lose all that great drama between Harry and Dumbledore about trusting Snape. Doesn't Harry suspect Snape of helping Draco? Why couldn't they hype that up or something?

Perhaps they will if its noted by the majority of the test audiences that there was a crucial element to the enjoyment of the film.

Personally I don't care. I didn't get upset at all when Dumbledore died. In fact I don't feel anything when any of the characters died (by DH Rowling really was taking the **** with deaths left right and centre). Guess I'm not so caught up on books as I should be.

Originally Posted by deansboy

I have to disagree wit them trying. It was widely known that Rickman had had personal chats with Rowling about the character and four books were out by the time the first movie was made, they knew what was up with him and chose to ignore it.

I've said it countless times and tking mentioned it, he comes off as the teacher the kids hate but not the cruel, vindictive and brave man that he is. He's the most complex character in the series and they chose to let him fall by the wayside. They made these movies with the no intention to fulfill it's promise on the screen, give us the overall picture yes but this is the most glaring omission, the one that truly hurts the series because Snape was essentially the beginning and the end to the events.

I don't care for Snape's character. His whole life is focused on a past crush on a girl who never reciprocated it, and who died however many years ago. Lame. Complex? A bit anti-climatic I would say.

It's hyped all over the series that Dumbledore has this great reason why he trusts Snape. A secret that no one knows. The real reason totally, imo , brings Rowling's credibility down.

[boushh]

I'm thinking that the movie is going to be good if one looks at it as an adaptation and lets go of the hope for a strict interpretation of the book. I used to not re-read the book before going to see one of these films on purpose. That way I didn't remember enough to be annoyed at stuff. This time around it's going to be different for me because HBP is actually the book I've read the most at this point and it's stuck a bit more in my brain.

On to what the reviewers said:

I'm a little worried about Snape's loyalties too, but not too much. I think it's just not going to be quite the same as the books and it isn't just this film's problem, it's everything that came before it. If they hadn't skimmed over Snape in the last two films I don't think we would be having this problem.

Anyway, it may be just enough that we see him looking like a potential bad guy in Spinner's End, then we see him helping out in the school, except a lot of the helping has to do with Draco who is going through his own good guy/bad guy struggle, then we see him shush Harry before goes up on the tower. I really think that bit with him going by Harry can get interpreted either way... and it may largely get interpreted as being a good thing. Then he goes up and kills Dumbledore and everything gets turned upside down for the people who thought he was good or even were unsure.

And keep in mind that half of the audience already knows what is coming here, so I don't expect a big GASP! or anything. These books are very popular. Even the people who haven't read them may have been spoiled at some point or another.

Oh and the poster at TLC also said she's going to answer all of the Snape questions tonight. We already know there is no DADA class or any other class besides Potions...

[MasterOfDeath]

The fact that Snape was not set-up in the other films means nothing. As Wimsey would say, if a character is vital and important in film six, he should be properly set-up and established IN film six. Snape is the title character, Snape is the Prince, Snape kills Dumbledore, Harry trusting the Prince but not trusting Snape is the core of the story. To remove that has nothing to do with the purist within me screaming in rage, it's the anticipation inside me that was awaiting a dramatic and morally ambiguous film, crashing down.

[ladykrystyna]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

The fact that Snape was not set-up in the other films means nothing. As Wimsey would say, if a character is vital and important in film six, he should be properly set-up and established IN film six. Snape is the title character, Snape is the Prince, Snape kills Dumbledore, Harry trusting the Prince but not trusting Snape is the core of the story. To remove that has nothing to do with the purist within me screaming in rage, it's the anticipation inside me that was awaiting a dramatic and morally ambiguous film, crashing down.

But the problem is that, IMHO, none of these books ultimately stands alone. I don't see how they could build up Snape's ambiguity in HBP without making the movie overly long and perhaps cutting out a bunch of other stuff that, while not as important to some, creates character development and a well-rounded story.

They really should have built it up over time, but just having 4 of the books before SS came out to me was not enough to know how important Snape was really going to be without JKR actually telling them that. But she played it close (for good reason) and there you have it.

To me, the only good solution was to wait until all books were out. We'd have many different actors in the roles (maybe we would have had Ian McClellan instead of Gambon!), but perhaps the movies would have come across better because they would have known the path and chosen differently.

Just a thought.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by ladykrystyna

But the problem is that, IMHO, none of these books ultimately stands alone. I don't see how they could build up Snape's ambiguity in HBP without making the movie overly long and perhaps cutting out a bunch of other stuff that, while not as important to some, creates character development and a well-rounded story.

They really should have built it up over time, but just having 4 of the books before SS came out to me was not enough to know how important Snape was really going to be without JKR actually telling them that. But she played it close (for good reason) and there you have it.

To me, the only good solution was to wait until all books were out. We'd have many different actors in the roles (maybe we would have had Ian McClellan instead of Gambon!), but perhaps the movies would have come across better because they would have known the path and chosen differently.

Just a thought.

But, would it be so hard to get the audiences thinking about Snape after Harry listens in on Draco and Snape's conversation? or keeping in Bella's interrogation which sheds light on Snape's back story: that he was and is a death eater, spy at Hogwarts, but may be a spy for Dumbledore, that Bella and many other death eaters do not trust him. Then we could get Harry mistrusting Snape after the Christmas party and viola. He could argue with Dumbledore about Snape...ahh, you know what? Your right. I just realized it. They did kind of ruin this already by downplaying the whole Harry/Snape arc. I guess there was nothing they could do.

We should have known. They are making these movies for profit and for kids. They don't change things to make a better movie and that is my problem. They change things to simplify and downplay to children and it looks like HBP will not (or cannot be) any different.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

The fact that Snape was not set-up in the other films means nothing. As Wimsey would say, if a character is vital and important in film six, he should be properly set-up and established IN film six. Snape is the title character, Snape is the Prince, Snape kills Dumbledore, Harry trusting the Prince but not trusting Snape is the core of the story. To remove that has nothing to do with the purist within me screaming in rage, it's the anticipation inside me that was awaiting a dramatic and morally ambiguous film, crashing down.

Well we have to wait and see how each of us reacts when viewing this final film.

And I disagree with the Snape thing needing to be dealt with in just this film. I agree he needs to have more of a part than he may actually have considering he is one of the title characters, but these films are an arc. They are not stand alone pieces, and I wish the film makers and whoever else did not view them this way. Certain elements are relevant to the particular film they appear in but stuff that deals with characters that come up again and again should not have been left by the wayside, and Snape to me is the big one, and it isn't just because I'm a fan either.

If there was more ambiguity to his character earlier on then we'd already have him set up. It isn't like people who watch these films don't know who Snape is. Just because there is a year and half (which really isn't that long for sequels) between films doesn't mean everything falls out of the brain of every person who has seen these movies. They may not know his name perhaps, but they know who he is. If there was enough in the other films to give you a, "I don't know about this guy." feeling it would carry over into this film and they'd be like: "Now I *really* don't know about this guy!"

Now I think OotP gave us a bit of that with the Occlumency stuff, but I really wish there was more in the last two films. I'm not even sure that it's clear enough that Snape was a Death Eater or that he is a spy for the Order. They could have played catch up with a lot of the stuff that was left out or wasn't clear earlier. I personally would have done that with this film. Still I'll wait and hear more and wait until I see it myself before I'm crushed. I have liked every movie in this series so far even if I nitpick them here or there, so I would be incredibly surprised if I didn't like this movie at all.

Edit: MOD, I really don't think they are dumbing things down to cater to children. I think they are trying to do what the books do and be appealing to both children and adults.