The All-Inclusive HBP Thread, v.12

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by boushh

Well we have to wait and see how each of us reacts when viewing this final film.

And I disagree with the Snape thing needing to be dealt with in just this film. I agree he needs to have more of a part than he may actually have considering he is one of the title characters, but these films are an arc. They are not stand alone pieces, and I wish the film makers and whoever else did not view them this way. Certain elements are relevant to the particular film they appear in but stuff that deals with characters that come up again and again should not have been left by the wayside, and Snape to me is the big one, and it isn't just because I'm a fan either.

If there was more ambiguity to his character earlier on then we'd already have him set up. It isn't like people who watch these films don't know who Snape is. Just because there is a year and half (which really isn't that long for sequels) between films doesn't mean everything falls out of the brain of every person who has seen these movies. They may not know his name perhaps, but they know who he is. If there was enough in the other films to give you a, "I don't know about this guy." feeling it would carry over into this film and they'd be like: "Now I *really* don't know about this guy!"

Now I think OotP gave us a bit of that with the Occlumency stuff, but I really wish there was more in the last two films. I'm not even sure that it's clear enough that Snape was a Death Eater or that he is a spy for the Order. They could have played catch up with a lot of the stuff that was left out or wasn't clear earlier. I personally would have done that with this film. Still I'll wait and hear more and wait until I see it myself before I'm crushed. I have liked every movie in this series so far even if I nitpick them here or there, so I would be incredibly surprised if I didn't like this movie at all.

Thank you! Very well-said. I guess I was using Wimsey's logic out of desperation. I really want them to get this movie right. Of course this is one big arc. As many people know, I defend that all the way. I suppose, I'm looking for ways that they could still include Snape's ambiguity into HBP but I just realized before that they cannot. It's too late.

[arithmancer]

None of the reviews address what Harry thinks/says about Snape, and whether the Harry/Dumbledore discussions are there, and in what form. But I am just putting together unconnected facts we are given, and it seems to me that they MUST have the ambiguity in there, and Harry aware of both sides of the argument. Possibly it is not well executed, that's another story, but the majority of the reviews seem to be from people who have different priorities than I.

Look at what is in:

1) Spinner's End. This Harry does not know about, but it should raise audience suspicions...though with Rickman, it could possibly seem ambiguous too. (Speaking as a reader - my very first reading of this scene, was when I commited to the Good! side of the Snape fence, and if anyone can give me that same feeling the dialogue in this chapter gave me in the book, it's Rickman).
2) Draco arousing Harry's suspicion in Diagon Alley. So they are totally keeping THAT bit from the books, with Harry deciding off the bat Draco is Up to Something.
3) Harry overhearing Snape and Draco. Umm...what is this doing here, if it is not to raise Harry's suspicions of Draco and implicate Snape?
4) The cursed hand of Albus, and the information that Snape healed it. Harry and Albus discuss Snape at least once, then.
5) Other instances of Snape the DADA (as opposed to Dark Arts) guy - the necklace and Sectumsempra. Oh, and we appear to lose all the "Evilness" - detentions, Snape being unpleasant to Harry after the train scene, Snape dealing with Harry after "Sectumsempra".
6) Albus again asks for Snape; Harry goes along with this (in spades). Why, when he has seen Snape talking to Draco under suspicious circumstances, and now has seen Draco is making his move? It seems to me because the movie does muddy the waters, at least by having Albus indicate his trust in explicit terms. This, in my recollection, was a HUGE reason people (especially people not fond of him, as I admit I am ) trusted Snape after the book - because if Snape was evil, Albus was an idiot. The movie seems to be setting up the same dynamic.

And

Spoiler: show

Snape does nothing to Harry - nor do we even hear of the dialogue about "The Dark Lord's orders" to explain this away, though the reviewers have been pretty silent on this part of the scene, other than the information that somehow, we learn Snape is the HBP and Snape mentions Lily's eyes.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

None of the reviews address what Harry thinks/says about Snape, and whether the Harry/Dumbledore discussions are there, and in what form. But I am just putting together unconnected facts we are given, and it seems to me that they MUST have the ambiguity in there, and Harry aware of both sides of the argument. Possibly it is not well executed, that's another story, but the majority of the reviews seem to be from people who have different priorities than I.

And hopefully we'll have more information on this tonight. The reviewer said she would answer more stuff about Snape tonight...

Look at what is in:

1) Spinner's End. This Harry does not know about, but it should raise audience suspicions...though with Rickman, it could possibly seem ambiguous too. (Speaking as a reader - my very first reading of this scene, was when I commited to the Good! side of the Snape fence, and if anyone can give me that same feeling the dialogue in this chapter gave me in the book, it's Rickman).

Yes, one cannot underestimate the Rickman factor.

2) Draco arousing Harry's suspicion in Diagon Alley. So they are totally keeping THAT bit from the books, with Harry deciding off the bat Draco is Up to Something.
3) Harry overhearing Snape and Draco. Umm...what is this doing here, if it is not to raise Harry's suspicions of Draco and implicate Snape?

Yep! Draco and Snape will at least be linked together in the minds of the audience after their scenes together and because of Spinner's End.

4) The cursed hand of Albus, and the information that Snape healed it. Harry and Albus discuss Snape at least once, then.

Do we have confirmation that we know that Snape healed it? I can't remember if it's in this book or in DH that we find this out actually. I know the scene in DH, but I can't remember anything about it in HBP.

5) Other instances of Snape the DADA (as opposed to Dark Arts) guy - the necklace and Sectumsempra. Oh, and we appear to lose all the "Evilness" - detentions, Snape being unpleasant to Harry after the train scene, Snape dealing with Harry after "Sectumsempra".

True. He's the go to guy a bit in this movie. And even if the latter things are cut out of this film we still have the Occlumency in OotP that people may likely remember. I think that stuff stands out, personally. So that might work in favor of "meanie Snape".

6) Albus again asks for Snape; Harry goes along with this (in spades). Why, when he has seen Snape talking to Draco under suspicious circumstances, and now has seen Draco is making his move? It seems to me because the movie does muddy the waters, at least by having Albus indicate his trust in explicit terms. This, in my recollection, was a HUGE reason people (especially people not fond of him, as I admit I am ) trusted Snape after the book - because if Snape was evil, Albus was an idiot. The movie seems to be setting up the same dynamic.

Exactly. Well said. I was one of those people that you mention at the end here, though I was also fond of Snape. It was just part of my reasoning for him being on the good side.

And

Spoiler: show

Snape does nothing to Harry - nor do we even hear of the dialogue about "The Dark Lord's orders" to explain this away, though the reviewers have been pretty silent on this part of the scene, other than the information that somehow, we learn Snape is the HBP and Snape mentions Lily's eyes.

Yeah, I think we need more information. It does seem like it isn't having enough of an impact, but it could be because it's different and/or largely unfinished. If the test audience didn't react properly to this scene they could back and re-edit. Sometimes it isn't about pick up shoots, just an FYI to all, it's about a different edit. IMHO, this is such a big scene that I could see there being a bunch of takes and camera angles to choose from...

MOD: I don't think it's too late. Just look at zgirnius's post above.

[ArryGrotter]

From all thr reviews, I don't see how the film is ruined... I see it as the film is suddenly coming to life. We are starting to see exactly what the film will be like - that is exciting!

And we should have been expecting cuts and changes - I mean what Harry Potter film doesn't have them. I would have been NICE to have Dobby, but alas, he is not in. Is that much of a matter? No. Is ANY characters being cut much of a matter? No. Klvoes will take out his DH scripting pen (and already has for one part) and find a way around things

Now all this about a 'bad' film - remember that most of these reviews are from book purists and also people that didn't have a CLUE what the movie would be like (ie - they weren't on this thread night and day ). Therefore, they would only just be coming to terms with some of the stuff learnt months ago as well as new stuff unknown - so of course they would feel slightly negative about it! That's the reason I am on this thread, so I am positive when I end up seeing HBP.

So don't look too much into peoples opinions...

[CrazyMuggle]

Originally Posted by ArryGrotter

From all thr reviews, I don't see how the film is ruined... I see it as the film is suddenly coming to life. We are starting to see exactly what the film will be like - that is exciting!

And we should have been expecting cuts and changes - I mean what Harry Potter film doesn't have them. I would have been NICE to have Dobby, but alas, he is not in. Is that much of a matter? No. Is ANY characters being cut much of a matter? No. Klvoes will take out his DH scripting pen (and already has for one part) and find a way around things

Now all this about a 'bad' film - remember that most of these reviews are from book purists and also people that didn't have a CLUE what the movie would be like (ie - they weren't on this thread night and day ). Therefore, they would only just be coming to terms with some of the stuff learnt months ago as well as new stuff unknown - so of course they would feel slightly negative about it! That's the reason I am on this thread, so I am positive when I end up seeing HBP.

So don't look too much into peoples opinions...

Exactly I've been far more pleased so far with the positive than disappointed with the negative (there's a lot of scenes in the movie like Spinner's End, Draco on the train and even Weasley's Wizard Wheezes that I was afraid would be cut and not only are they in the movie but, according to the reviewers, they do the book great justice!) Don't be discouraged by the opinions of others and reserve judgement for yourselves. For instance, one of the first reviewers is a strong hater of Gambon but she admitted to liking his performance much more in HBP (she also hated OOTP but really enjoyed this). Another reviewer didn't like Gambon at all though so which one is right? We have conflicting opinions already so don't jump at the first negative thing you hear.

From what it ultimately sounds like this could be the best film yet

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

But come on, HBP could have done something to make Snape ambiguous. I can't believe we're going to lose all that great drama between Harry and Dumbledore about trusting Snape. Doesn't Harry suspect Snape of helping Draco? Why couldn't they hype that up or something?

I agree, it's a big loss. Snape's ambiguity was one of the best parts of HBP. I really wish we could have seen Harry arguing with DD about where Snapes' loyalties lie. That's what made Snape's act of killing DD so tragic for Harry at the end of HBP- that he was killed by someone Harry didn't trust from the beginning. As a reader I remember being so angry with DD at being so blind and foolish in trusting Snape. That's what made the prince's tale in DH so amazing for me. I guess the viewer will never feel that same way.

[boushh]

^^ I feel that I must point out zgirnius's post above and also the fact that the reviewer has not given us a whole lot of information about Snape yet, except her opinion... Let's see what she tells about his scenes when she posts.

Also, I feel that when the music is done it might set the tone of foreboding and ambiguity that may be lacking without it. I'm sure you guys have seen clips from films that do not have the music and sound effects completed. It makes a big difference.

[lcbaseball22]

What do you all think of the look (from the GAME) and description of the Astronomy Tower?

Not at all how I pictured it, but cool none-the-less ()...Thanks to Okrim for finding this:

Originally Posted by Rachezee on LeakyLounge

Yes that is what the tower looked like. Looks like the video game got it directly from the set. See the slits in the floor? It is through those cracks Harry watches the DD Draco stuff

The tower does not look like what is described in the book but it is such an indescribably beautiful set in really does not matter in my opinion. Like a Gazebo with a huge silver gyroscope like structure in the middle of it.

[yoshi2542]

There's another review up on AICN.

http://aintitcool.com/node/38251

From a book reader, so there is a lot of bias, but the complaints about the lack of emotion and the overbearing focus on romance are unsettling (the comments below were interesting, pretty much everyone agreed Cuaron was the best director and that he produced the only worthy film in the series).

The problem with all of this romance is All of This Romance. It dominates the movie, drawing our focus away not only from major plot points – which fall disastrously through the cracks – but also deters the mood, which, in a (nearly) penultimate film, should be at the forefront.

The title of this film is Harry Potter and the HALF-BLOOD PRINCE but the title character gets next to no screen time and even less explanation...

Series regulars such as Maggie Smith and Robbie Coltrane are reduced two line cameos.

The last third of this movie is so incredibly mishandled that Dumbledore's death feels more like an unfortunate accident than genuine tragedy. No one in the film seems even remotely upset that he's gone and the Death Eaters who murdered him, including would-be-good-guy Severus Snape (Alan Rickman, the title-character in cameo form), walk out of Hogwarts unmolested.

I expected it from the moment Yates told us about 'sex, drugs and rock and roll' but I thought Kloves would know better. I guess Yates told him what he wanted and he did it. I am frankly shocked that any director would center his film around a bunch of lovestruck teens, when he has actors like Rickman, Gambon and Broadbent just begging to take the reigns. I'm not hoping for much to change between now and July. With DH in pre-production, Yates isn't going to have time to do much else. Perhaps if they hadn't signed him up for DH, he could try to salvage HBP while a more competent director handles DH.


EDIT: I'm glad they are re-using those astronomy instruments from POA for the tower scene.

[phoenix88]

Originally Posted by lcbaseball22

What do you all think of the look (from the GAME) and description of the Astronomy Tower?

Not at all how I pictured it, but cool none-the-less ()...Thanks to Okrim for finding this:

It's not how I pictured either but I love this pic. I always thought of the astronomy tower as a tall parapet with the principal characters out in the open. This almost looks like it's enclosed. I never expected wooden floor boards either. I always thought the tower would be stone like a castle fortress.

Despite that, this actually looks good. One thing almost all the viewers said was how beautiful the cinematography was. At least we can count on a visually pleasing film.

[PureBloodGirl]

Wow, that picture looks awsome! I can't wait to play the game. Too bad we must wait another year! Anyways I finished re-reading HBP today I feel that Tonks and Remus are an important part to the battle at Hogwarts and not replaceable. Remus and Tonks are part of the action and fighting of the Battle and it's where their romance begins. Even though I doubt it will happen it would be nice that since they are editing HBP and maybe adding some more scenes that they might add a bit more Tonks and Lupin. They just might not be telling us. Just a thought.

[Fleur du mal]

I don't understand - what purpose you think Tonks and Remus serve in the story of HBP?

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Fleur du mal

I don't understand - what purpose you think Tonks and Remus serve in the story of HBP?

Because a bubbly pink-haired spunky girl with a much older, poorer werewolf is much sexier than some Mary Sue girl with a Mary Sue Vampire!

Personal Politics? Plesh! This story is all about the love!

[Fleur du mal]

And once again, you leave me head-scratching. I guess I understand the Twilight quip, but what's it got to do with HBP?

Neither Tonks nor Lupin are much in the book in the first place, except for the hospital scene in the end. They might or not fight in the battle - but of that, we hardly see much either. So what is the point in giving them more screen time?

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by deansboy

You know it's amazing that I never thought of Fred and George? It makes sense, or at least more sense than him going back home since we know he can't. He said it, how would his family, his mother especially, look at him if he came back having admitted that he left them high and dry?

Fred and George create an out since reintroducing Fleur and adding Bill (He's honestly been mentioned, what, once and pictured once?) takes more time than just using current characters who don't have much to do.

I still think it's feasible that they might decide to include Bill and Fleur in DH anyway - their purpose in the story requires no character development because they are essentially just convenient props used to create a believable backdrop for Harry to get information at the wedding and, later, at Shell Cottage. The fact that Bill is Ron's older brother is all the audience needs to know to accept him.

However, it is equally possible that they will decide to cut Bill and Fleur. In that event, it makes the most sense for them to simply cut the wedding all together and use Harry's birthday party for that scenario - make it a slightly bigger celebration of his coming of age. I think Fred and George would be the most believable substitute in regards to Shell Cottage - again the fact that they are Ron's brothers is all that is really needed there. In addition, Fred and George have been around since the beginning - audiences know who they are and their scenes have always been big crowd pleasers.

Originally Posted by tking

I don't care for Snape's character. His whole life is focused on a past crush on a girl who never reciprocated it, and who died however many years ago. Lame. Complex? A bit anti-climatic I would say.

It's hyped all over the series that Dumbledore has this great reason why he trusts Snape. A secret that no one knows. The real reason totally, imo , brings Rowling's credibility down.

I agree. I loved Snape's character in the first six books - he was so wonderfully complex and intriguing. Reducing all that to him merely holding on to his obsessive love for Lily was extremely anti-climactic, IMO. A very disappointing end to what was such a promising plot line.

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Thank you! Very well-said. I guess I was using Wimsey's logic out of desperation. I really want them to get this movie right. Of course this is one big arc. As many people know, I defend that all the way. I suppose, I'm looking for ways that they could still include Snape's ambiguity into HBP but I just realized before that they cannot. It's too late.

I'm not sure we have enough details at this point to definitively say they haven't - or at least that they didn't try. I haven't seen anyone actually comment on the specifics in regards to suspicion towards Snape.

However, I think the perception of Snape as a villain works towards that as well and I have seen that mentioned in the reviews. As was pointed out above, OOTP has that wonderful line by Rickman - "No idea" - as well as establishing that he was a double agent and adding another layer to his hatred of Harry. The scene where he dragged Harry down the stairs so roughly and his animosity in the Occlumency scenes were very well done and did set up his ambiguity, IMO. By the end of HBP, the audience will think he's a villain - just as Harry does - and that will add more impact to finding out that he was actually following Dumbledore's orders all along in DH.

One think I do like about the reviews is that it does appear that they are trying to rectify the problems in this plot line - particularly with the addition of having Snape mention Lily when Harry confronts him in the end. This is the type of thing that we should have seen in the books all along so I think that was an excellent idea.

Originally Posted by ArryGrotter

From all thr reviews, I don't see how the film is ruined... I see it as the film is suddenly coming to life. We are starting to see exactly what the film will be like - that is exciting!

And we should have been expecting cuts and changes - I mean what Harry Potter film doesn't have them. I would have been NICE to have Dobby, but alas, he is not in. Is that much of a matter? No. Is ANY characters being cut much of a matter? No. Klvoes will take out his DH scripting pen (and already has for one part) and find a way around things

Now all this about a 'bad' film - remember that most of these reviews are from book purists and also people that didn't have a CLUE what the movie would be like (ie - they weren't on this thread night and day ). Therefore, they would only just be coming to terms with some of the stuff learnt months ago as well as new stuff unknown - so of course they would feel slightly negative about it! That's the reason I am on this thread, so I am positive when I end up seeing HBP.

So don't look too much into peoples opinions...

Honestly, it's the details that have been given so far that worry me the most. It appears that they made a lot of strange decisions for this film.

Spoiler: show

Harry sitting out the open in a muggle cafe with no protection and flirting with a waitress completely undermines the suggestion that the danger is increasing due to them being at war. The details given thus far about his relation ship with Ginny give the impression that this will just limp along in the film - the first kiss is a miserable, depressing experience with Ginny feeling rejected and running away after essentially telling Harry he can forget about it and it does not appear that they actually date. Those few weeks of dating Ginny and being deliriously happy about it were significant because they showed Harry what he could have to look forward to - a taste of what a normal life could be like. Cutting the battle at Hogwarts at the end completely undermines Dumbledore because it makes it appear that he left the school vulnerable in his absence and the Death Eaters just stroll in and back out with no interference. It also undermines Harry as the hero of the tale because it was his quick thinking and foresight that put Ron and the others in the right place to notify the Order that the Death Eaters had gotten in.

The impression that I'm getting is that the problem is not the amount of romance included in the film - in terms of the amount it seems to be fairly balanced. It seems that the problem is that those scenes had better quality - specifically with Ron/Hermione. They seem to be better written and the reviews indicate that he audience enjoyed those scenes. In contrast, the darker aspects of the film seems to be of lower quality in regards to how they were written and performances - specifically Dan. I've yet to be impressed by any performance from Dan in the HP movies so I'm inclined to believe the reviews that his performance in HBP was lackluster - this was something I've been concerned about all along because his past performances have not been very good - particularly with emotional scenes.

When you have scenes that are not written well and the actor(s) give a lackluster performance in the same film with scenes that are written well and great performances, naturally the good scenes will outshine the bad and stand out.

Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl

Wow, that picture looks awsome! I can't wait to play the game. Too bad we must wait another year! Anyways I finished re-reading HBP today I feel that Tonks and Remus are an important part to the battle at Hogwarts and not replaceable. Remus and Tonks are part of the action and fighting of the Battle and it's where their romance begins. Even though I doubt it will happen it would be nice that since they are editing HBP and maybe adding some more scenes that they might add a bit more Tonks and Lupin. They just might not be telling us. Just a thought.

That seems to be very unlikely at this point. It appears that Tonks and Lupin are there simply to show some Order members at work during the added scene at the Burrow during Christmas - though I'm still baffled why they didn't cast more Order members for believability when they have cast so many Death Eaters.

Spoiler: show

The battle at Hogwarts has been cut from HBP completely so Tonks and Lupin won't be there at all.

[PureBloodGirl]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

That seems to be very unlikely at this point. It appears that Tonks and Lupin are there simply to show some Order members at work during the added scene at the Burrow during Christmas - though I'm still baffled why they didn't cast more Order members for believability when they have cast so many Death Eaters.

Spoiler: show

The battle at Hogwarts has been cut from HBP completely so Tonks and Lupin won't be there at all.

So Mad-Eye isn't going to be in the film? That sucks. Are Tonks, Lupin, Arthur, and Molly the only Order members that are going to be in it?

Spoiler: show

NO! Why? How? That completely sucks! How could they make the movie without it? How do you know? Why did you put it in spoilers?

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by PureBloodGirl

So Mad-Eye isn't going to be in the film? That sucks. Are Tonks, Lupin, Arthur, and Molly the only Order members that are going to be in it?

Spoiler: show

NO! Why? How? That completely sucks! How could they make the movie without it? How do you know? Why did you put it in spoilers?

Moody was cut from HBP, but he will be back for DH. I'm not 100% sure, but it does appear that Tonks, Lupin, Arthur, Molly, and Dumbledore will be the only Order members. I count Dumbledore since he's the leader. Oh - and the twins, but I'm not sure if we could say they are officially in the Order.

Spoiler: show

I saw it in one of the screening reviews. No battle at Hogwarts. The Death Eaters apparently just waltz in and waltz back out with nobody even attempting to defend the castle. Harry chases after Snape, but there's no battle. And I agree that it sucks. I put it in spoiler because the mods asked us to put the big spoilers from the screening in spoiler tags.

[Hysteria]

What purpose do Tonks and Lupin serve in HBP that another people/couple can't do just as well?

[Rachezee]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Moody was cut from HBP, but he will be back for DH. I'm not 100% sure, but it does appear that Tonks, Lupin, Arthur, Molly, and Dumbledore will be the only Order members. I count Dumbledore since he's the leader. Oh - and the twins, but I'm not sure if we could say they are officially in the Order.

Spoiler: show

I saw it in one of the screening reviews. No battle at Hogwarts. The Death Eaters apparently just waltz in and waltz back out with nobody even attempting to defend the castle. Harry chases after Snape, but there's no battle. And I agree that it sucks. I put it in spoiler because the mods asked us to put the big spoilers from the screening in spoiler tags.

Moody was not really in the HPB book anyway, I believe the only time he is ever present is at the funderal but I don't think he had one line in the entire book. Or am I entirely forgetting something?

Oh, and don't forget - McGonagall and Snape are both order members.

[ArryGrotter]

Someone sent me a few negative reviews of HBP and I have this to say:

Pfftipoo!

I don't care for THERE opinions! I only care for mine! And STILL mine is positive!