Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

[PhoebeCaulfield]

Where does Sirius get a wand from in OOTP? It's always bugged me.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by PhoebeCaulfield

Where does Sirius get a wand from in OOTP? It's always bugged me.

Perhaps wands formerly belonging to deceased family members? Otherwise, I'm sure Dumbledore would have been able to help Sirius acquire a wand, he found Sirius a hiding place after PoA and knew Sirius would need to defend himself.

[CurseCruciatus]

For the Lupin-human thing, maybe Kingsley was just being careful.

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by PhoebeCaulfield

Where does Sirius get a wand from in OOTP? It's always bugged me.

I find HedwigOwl's explanations quite credible.

What bugged me is how Voldemort retained his wand after he became Vapormort. How can you carry a wand when you don't have a body, which means no hands, no clothes (i.e. no pocket, sleeve or belt in which to tuck a wand) and when vapor can't sustain a physical object?

Re: Hagrid and Fleur and Pollyjuice, also consider the fact that Hagrid is half-Giant, Fleur is only one-quarter Veela. On top of the other explanations given above.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

What bugged me is how Voldemort retained his wand after he became Vapormort. How can you carry a wand when you don't have a body, which means no hands, no clothes (i.e. no pocket, sleeve or belt in which to tuck a wand) and when vapor can't sustain a physical object?

IIRC it's general consensus that Peter had Voldie's wand. (PP might have been at GH with Voldie . . .) Somehow or other an animagus is able to keep his clothes and wand whilst in the animagus form. (PoA movie to the contrary.)

[Wab]

Hermione turned into a cat. Well adopted many features of a cat.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

What bugged me is how Voldemort retained his wand after he became Vapormort. How can you carry a wand when you don't have a body, which means no hands, no clothes (i.e. no pocket, sleeve or belt in which to tuck a wand) and when vapor can't sustain a physical object?

I think JKR may have said something about that in reply to a question.....that Wormtail, who knew where Voldemort had gone, went back and recovered the wand from the ruins. I'll look for the quote.

It's a secondhand report:

AccioQuote Second-hand report: Jo said that Peter Pettigrew took Voldemort's wand and robe and hid them This may be true, but we have no way to corroborate it. Here's the source: just after the 2004 Edinburgh Book Fair, an 11-year-old named "Chris" posted to The Leaky Cauldron (22 Aug 2004) that he had the following interaction with Jo (the italics are mine): Chris: It was sooooo cool that we just have to show off and brag about it im afraid (sorry). Not only is JK Rowling the best Author EVER !!, but she is such a nice lady. It was so nice to get to meet her, shake her hand, say thanks for writing such brilliant stories AND have all our things signed! We got there late, about an hour, which was really sad because we missed the book reading, but once we were inside it was awesome. JK Rowling even asked to see us last because she had been told about all the problems my Dad had had with his car (the engine blew up!) before we got to Edinburgh and said she would spend an extra 5 minutes with us at the end! - WOW, We think not that she would have even spent longer but we just didnt know what to ask her - all the questions got muddled up! The ladies that helped get us to the book festival were really nice too, we were taken through to where JK Rowling was, given our wristbands, then we went to meet her. We said hello and she told us 'she was really glad we could make it'. I told her I was really glad to be there and her books were the best, I said I wish I could have asked her a question and so she told me to 'go on then, ask away!'. I asked JK Rowling would Professor Lockhart get out of St Mungos, get his memory back and be in any of the next books?, she said no to all of these questions. I also asked when Harries parents were killed by Voldermort, Wormtail turned into a rat and pretended to be dead. How then did he give Voldermort his wand and robe back once he found him and helped give him back his body ?, she told me (after tapping her nose!) 'he hid them'. We have included this information here at Madam Scoop's because it was so widely reported that we have assumed that one of the reporters had a way to corroborate Chris's story. But we admit it's a little iffy =).

[willfitz]

Frankly, I don't understand why it is so inconceivable that, like clothes, the wand re-emerge once an animagus regains their human form, unless JK has directly contradicted this.

A slight inconsistency that I found was the fact that in the first chapter of PS, whilst talking to Minerva, Dumbledore mentions that he has long been an advocate of using "his [You-Know-Who's] proper name, Voldemort." It seems odd to me that Dumbledore considered his "proper name" to be Voldemort, when he knew his actual name, Tom Riddle, and when if that name was used publicly, it would surely decrease the level of fear. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I find this to be a slight inconsistency in Dumbledore's character, given how he acts later in the series, albeit 15 or so decades later.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by willfitz

A slight inconsistency that I found was the fact that in the first chapter of PS, whilst talking to Minerva, Dumbledore mentions that he has long been an advocate of using "his [You-Know-Who's] proper name, Voldemort." It seems odd to me that Dumbledore considered his "proper name" to be Voldemort, when he knew his actual name, Tom Riddle, and when if that name was used publicly, it would surely decrease the level of fear. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I find this to be a slight inconsistency in Dumbledore's character, given how he acts later in the series, albeit 15 or so decades later.

Excellent point. He should have said 'his chosen name' but that might have given a lot away. Although, I know I never thought Lord Voldemort was a birth name, I didn't think about what his given name was until we met Diary Riddle.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Frankly, I don't understand why it is so inconceivable that, like clothes, the wand re-emerge once an animagus regains their human form, unless JK has directly contradicted this.

It's not, but FleurduJardin's original query was how did Voldemort hide his wand when he didn't have a body. I replied that Peter had kept it for him while hiding as Scabbers.

[Wab]

Originally Posted by HMN

Excellent point. He should have said 'his chosen name' but that might have given a lot away. Although, I know I never thought Lord Voldemort was a birth name, I didn't think about what his given name was until we met Diary Riddle.

Having a birth name (for want of a better term) and a "real" name or name of power is a common fantasy trope.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

What I think Lupin is saying, is that no one could impersonate Hagrid because of his half-giant status, the potion is only able to transform someone into a human form. That is, Hagrid could polyjuice himself to be Lupin, or Harry, or Ron, but none of them could transform and become Hagrid. Likewise, Fluer can polyjuice and become Harry, but Harry would not be able to use Fluer's hair and become her because she is part-Veela. So Lupin could be confident that Hagrid was Hagrid.

I think that is probably what Jo was going for with that - as I said in my previous posts. I can see where there would be confusion though because the wording - for human use only - does imply that only humans could use polyjuice. It would have been more clear if Lupin had said "polyjuice can only be used to impersonate humans" instead of saying it was "designed for human use only".

Originally Posted by leah49

That's a good question. Maybe she had a time turner (they weren't destroyed until the end of that book anyway).

Well, it's not like Umbridge was actively teaching her classes - she basically just had them sitting there reading from their book the whole time. She didn't give class lectures or even go over what they were reading. With that in mind, she could have had anyone - even Filch - sit with her classes to make sure they didn't do anything but read for the entire period while she was inspecting other teachers.

Originally Posted by RobinSeeker

Like I said it depends on if you consider Lupin human or not. I'm not perfectly convinced. I don't know if we should trust Umbridge's opinion and consider him a halfbreed. Or if we should go the James route and say he has a fury little problem? idk? I understand that this thread isn't about finding every single possible plot hole. So if it is not a mistake. then we can agree that maybe JK Rowlling was using this as an opportunity to tell us werewolves are human. Humans with a fury little problem. The discrimination they face is ...ummmm... stupid, because it's like discriminating someone with a chronic disease. I cannot face the possibility of agreeing with Umbridge, so my conclusion is...

this post should have been on the "took multiple readings of DH to catch" thread.

According to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, werewolves are human when they are not transformed. And that makes sense because the anatomy and physiology would only change during their transformations at the time of the full moon. For those three days, they would have the anatomy and physiology of a wolf - at least while the moon was out. The rest of the time, they would be human.

Someone like Umbridge would consider a werewolf a half-breed simply because they were not human all of the time. But a true half-breed would be a mix and they would have differences in their anatomy and physiology to that of humans all the time. The most obvious example is Centaurs - having the body of a horse and the torso of a human. The difference with Fleur is less obvious because the only visible difference is that she emits that silvery glow - which either dims or enhances the appearance of those around her depending on her mood - but there is still a difference presented because she is part Veela.

Originally Posted by PhoebeCaulfield

Where does Sirius get a wand from in OOTP? It's always bugged me.

There are several possibilities there. If his personal effects were sent to his family after he was imprisoned, that may have been his own wand and he simply retrieved it after the events of POA. Likewise, even if his wand was snapped in two - like Hagrid's - it is possible that Dumbledore used the Elder wand to repair his wand for him - which is most likely why Hagrid's wand works even though it was snapped in two. I think that is probably why Jo showed Harry using the Elder wand to repair his Phoenix wand at the end of DH - it explains how Hagrid was able to continue using his wand, disguised as a pink umbrella. Again, that would depend on what happened to his belongings after he was imprisoned, but I think it's likely that they were sent to his family.

It's also possible that there were old wands at Grimmauld Place where family members had purchased new ones over the years - there are examples in the text of other families saving wands like the Weasleys and the Longbottoms. Likewise, he could have been using an old wand from someone else who had purchased a new wand. That might have even been the wand Dumbledore had prior to defeating Grindelwald and acquiring the Elder wand for himself. Another possibility is that Sirius disguised himself and purchased a new wand on his own between the events of POA and OOTP - or Dumbledore could have helped with that by bringing a wandmaker to him and erasing their memory once Sirius had purchased a new wand.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Frankly, I don't understand why it is so inconceivable that, like clothes, the wand re-emerge once an animagus regains their human form, unless JK has directly contradicted this.

As far as I know, she hasn't. That appears to be how it works in the text - I'm pretty sure that McGonagall had her wand on her when she transformed for the class in POA and I can't see Rita Skeeter leaving her wand behind when she was using her beetle form to get information at Hogwarts for her stories in GOF.

A slight inconsistency that I found was the fact that in the first chapter of PS, whilst talking to Minerva, Dumbledore mentions that he has long been an advocate of using "his [You-Know-Who's] proper name, Voldemort." It seems odd to me that Dumbledore considered his "proper name" to be Voldemort, when he knew his actual name, Tom Riddle, and when if that name was used publicly, it would surely decrease the level of fear. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I find this to be a slight inconsistency in Dumbledore's character, given how he acts later in the series, albeit 15 or so decades later.

Dumbledore sometimes referred to Voldemort as "Tom" - usually when speaking to Voldemort - but he never encouraged anyone else to call him "Tom". He often referred to him as "Voldemort" when talking to Harry about the adult Voldemort and "Tom" or "Riddle" when he was talking about the child/teenager. Most people didn't even know that Voldemort used to be known as Tom Riddle. I don't think Dumbledore meant "proper name" as in the name he was born with, but rather "proper name" as in that was the name he was using as an adult and the name most people knew for him - as opposed to referring to him without a name in the context of "You-Know-Who" or "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". It was the name "Voldemort" that people were afraid of - not Tom Riddle - and that is the fear that Dumbledore was trying to combat so I think it makes sense that he would focus on the known name of "Voldemort" rather than the unknown name of "Tom Riddle".

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

It's not, but FleurduJardin's original query was how did Voldemort hide his wand when he didn't have a body. I replied that Peter had kept it for him while hiding as Scabbers.

I agree. The report is second hand, but I think it is likely that Jo did tell that boy about Pettigrew taking Voldemort's wand and robes and hiding them after Voldemort's body was destroyed. It makes sense when you think about it. Pettigrew didn't go to Godric's Hollow with Voldemort, but he could have easily been there that night - hiding as a rat in the shadows. I think he might have hoped that, by removing the wand and robes from the scene, he could prevent anyone from realizing that Voldemort had actually been there. But that didn't work - amazing how quickly the news of Voldemort's downfall travelled that night - so Pettigrew went to plan B and framed Sirius by faking his own death and then went into hiding as a rat because the Death Eaters were blaming him for Voldemort's downfall.

It's possible that Pettigrew knew that Voldemort hadn't really died and would return - or perhaps he heard Dumbledore speculating about that or even Bellatrix talking about it while he was a rat - and took the wand and robes in hopes of being able to gain favor with Voldemort by saving his belongings for him. Sirius thought that was why Pettigrew chose the family of a Ministry employee as a place to hide so he would hear about any news concerning Voldemort - and he may have been right about that. It fits with Pettigrew's personality.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by leah49

That's a good question. Maybe she had a time turner (they weren't destroyed until the end of that book anyway).

Interesting possiblility, Leah; I kind of like it. Though as Meesha said, not really necessary as Umbridge was not really teaching so much as babysitting teenagers.

Also, when the Trio receives their class schedules at breakfast every Sept. 2nd, they have different classes on different weekdays instead of the same classes in the same order every weekday, which is more like an American High School model. So maybe Umbridge really did have that much free time, with no classes scheduled, to critique other Professors. My understanding is that it was just a few times for each Professor, not very frequent; just Trelawny, IIRC, and Hagrid. It could be that those classes coincided with the DADA Professor's free period several times a week. We see Snape in the teachers' lounge when Lupin brings the second years in for their first boggart lesson, after all

Originally Posted by PhoebeCaulfield

Where does Sirius get a wand from in OOTP? It's always bugged me.

I honestly think he could have gotten a new one from Ollivander. I do see where it was problematic being seen in Diagon Alley, but not insurmountable.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by Wab

Hermione turned into a cat. Well adopted many features of a cat.

Yes, but it caused problem. She was a mix of cat and Hermione and it took her much longer to transform back (she had to visit the hospital wing).

[CurseCruciatus]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Dumbledore sometimes referred to Voldemort as "Tom" - usually when speaking to Voldemort - but he never encouraged anyone else to call him "Tom". He often referred to him as "Voldemort" when talking to Harry about the adult Voldemort and "Tom" or "Riddle" when he was talking about the child/teenager. Most people didn't even know that Voldemort used to be known as Tom Riddle. I don't think Dumbledore meant "proper name" as in the name he was born with, but rather "proper name" as in that was the name he was using as an adult and the name most people knew for him - as opposed to referring to him without a name in the context of "You-Know-Who" or "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". It was the name "Voldemort" that people were afraid of - not Tom Riddle - and that is the fear that Dumbledore was trying to combat so I think it makes sense that he would focus on the known name of "Voldemort" rather than the unknown name of "Tom Riddle".

I was thinking about this question too, but excellent explanation!

[mugglebirth]

Originally Posted by willfitz

A slight inconsistency that I found was the fact that in the first chapter of PS, whilst talking to Minerva, Dumbledore mentions that he has long been an advocate of using "his [You-Know-Who's] proper name, Voldemort." It seems odd to me that Dumbledore considered his "proper name" to be Voldemort, when he knew his actual name, Tom Riddle, and when if that name was used publicly, it would surely decrease the level of fear. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I find this to be a slight inconsistency in Dumbledore's character, given how he acts later in the series, albeit 15 or so decades later.

I don't see any inconsistency with the words of Dumbledore regarding the "proper name" of Voldemort. I would direct you to Ch.17, p.314 (US edition) and the discussion between Tom Riddle and Harry in the Chamber of Secrets.

It is there that Tom Marvolo Riddle reveals that he discarded his muggle name for that his "proper name" of Lord Voldemort, (which Dumbledore was no doubt aware of before ever becoming headmaster of Hogwarts).

I believe that when Dumbledore refers to Voldemort as Tom in OoTP Ch.36, p.812 (US edition) he is relying up his knowledge of Tom and of Voldemorts fears. It is essentially smack talk when Dumbledore calls Voldemort by his muggle name. The chapter is after titled, "The Only One He Ever Feared."

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mugglebirth

I don't see any inconsistency with the words of Dumbledore regarding the "proper name" of Voldemort. I would direct you to Ch.17, p.314 (US edition) and the discussion between Tom Riddle and Harry in the Chamber of Secrets.

It is there that Tom Marvolo Riddle reveals that he discarded his muggle name for that his "proper name" of Lord Voldemort, (which Dumbledore was no doubt aware of before ever becoming headmaster of Hogwarts).

I believe that when Dumbledore refers to Voldemort as Tom in OoTP Ch.36, p.812 (US edition) he is relying up his knowledge of Tom and of Voldemorts fears. It is essentially smack talk when Dumbledore calls Voldemort by his muggle name. The chapter is after titled, "The Only One He Ever Feared."

I would disagree that bestowing a name upon oneself makes that name "proper." I'm not sure about what sort of laws there are in the wizarding world, but I would assume that Voldemort would not have submitted an application to have his name legally changed at any point. If he did, fair enough...

Regardless, my gut feeling is that his legal, and proper, name was still Tom Riddle, to the same extent that "the Rock's" proper name is Dwayne Johnson, Ronaldihno's proper name is Ronaldo de Assis Moreira, and "the Naked Chef's" proper name is Jamie Oliver. On top of that, there was no fear attached to that name, and its use was not likely to add to fear of Voldemort in the way that his chosen name was. In my opinion, Dumbledore was never the trash-talking type, nor do I feel that he is the type of person who would respect Voldemort's blatant act of intimidation that was giving himself the new name. It seemed to me at the time I read it that Dumbledore's character would be more likely to consider Voldemort's proper name as Tom Riddle, but I certainly understand if people don't agree.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I would disagree that bestowing a name upon oneself makes that name "proper." I'm not sure about what sort of laws there are in the wizarding world, but I would assume that Voldemort would not have submitted an application to have his name legally changed at any point. If he did, fair enough...

Regardless, my gut feeling is that his legal, and proper, name was still Tom Riddle, to the same extent that "the Rock's" proper name is Dwayne Johnson, Ronaldihno's proper name is Ronaldo de Assis Moreira, and "the Naked Chef's" proper name is Jamie Oliver. On top of that, there was no fear attached to that name, and its use was not likely to add to fear of Voldemort in the way that his chosen name was. In my opinion, Dumbledore was never the trash-talking type, nor do I feel that he is the type of person who would respect Voldemort's blatant act of intimidation that was giving himself the new name. It seemed to me at the time I read it that Dumbledore's character would be more likely to consider Voldemort's proper name as Tom Riddle, but I certainly understand if people don't agree.

Well, the issue at hand isn't really what Voldemort's legal name was - we don't know if the wizarding world required such formalities for name changes after all. A proper name is - by definition - a "formal name of a unique entity, such as an individual, title, event, or place, which is often capitalized in English usage". It is an identifier. That may or may not be the person's legal name and can even be a title. Dwayne Johnson adopted the title "The Rock" as a "stage name" for wrestling and is known by both so both would be proper names for him in the sense that they identify who he is. Tom Riddle adopted the title of Lord Voldemort and both would be proper names for him because both identify who he is. Of those two names, Lord Voldemort is the one that the majority of the wizarding world was familiar with.

I think the issue would be that very few people knew that Voldemort's birth name was Tom Riddle. Dumbledore was trying to combat the fear of the name "Voldemort". There was no such fear attached to the name "Tom Riddle" because nobody connected that name to the evil Dark Lord they were all afraid of. Telling people to call him "Tom Riddle" - or even Tom or Riddle - would have resulted in confusion necessitating an explanation. It would be easier to focus on the name people knew. And many would probably have just assumed it was a made up name to use instead of Voldemort so the fear of the name "Voldemort" would persist. I think - for Dumbledore - the bigger issue is that people were specifically afraid to say "Voldemort" because it played into what Voldemort wanted - to be so powerful that his name alone would create fear and people would be afraid to say it. If Dumbledore could stop people from being afraid of the name "Voldemort" and say it freely, that would have been a blow to Voldemort's ego.

[PadfootPOA]

Off-topic a bit, but it always irritated me when Harry called Voldemort "Riddle". It just didn't hit as hard as calling him Tom. I always thought that that would have been a better taunt.

[BurrowGhoul]

Originally Posted by PadfootPOA

Off-topic a bit, but it always irritated me when Harry called Voldemort "Riddle". It just didn't hit as hard as calling him Tom. I always thought that that would have been a better taunt.

Well, I won't disagree with you, although just knowing that Harry knew about his past was probably unnerving. He was as ashamed of his muggle parentage as he was of his run-of-the-mill name, so Riddle was probably effective.