Ethics of Fansubs

[WitchHunter]

Before I start, this thread is NOT intended to provide links to fansubs or for people to request links to fansubs. This thread has been allowed by the staff on those conditions. Whatever your opinion of fansubs may be, they are technically a copyright violation and therefore illegal.
I'm interested to know what people think about anime fansubs. Namely, is it ever ethical to create, distribute, or watch fansubs, and if so under what conditions does it remain ethical? To get started, please consider a few scenarios:
1. A series has not yet been licensed in your country, or it is unlikely that it ever will be.
2. A series has been licensed, but has not yet been made available; alternatively, a series has been licensed, but the company holding the license seems to have no intention of releasing it. This would be more for muti-series franchises such as Gundam or Macross, where a company may hold the license for the entire franchise but only release certain series.
3. A series has been made legally available, but has not caught up to existing fansubs; alternatively, a portion of a series has been made available but has since been dropped by the company holding the license.
4. A series has been made available in its entirety, but has been heavily edited, especially in cases where the license holder refuses to release an unedited version, as has often been the case with 4Kids.
5. This last one is not usually brought up, but its something I am personally curious about: A series has been made available in its entirety and unedited, but is of significantly lower quality then an existing or in-progress fansub. I will not mention names, since that would be essentially the same as providing links, but there are several fansubbing groups that consistently do a higher-quality job then anime-licensing companies.

What are your thoughts on fansubbing, and on the scenarios I have listed. And does anyone have any other scenarios in which fansubbing may be ethical?

[mexicant]

Most animes I watch, I watch first in fan-subs. I don't download them. I stream them. I'm not sure how other people would feel about that, but I kind of view it like this: most of the shows I want to try out aren't on here. I have no way of seeing if I'll even like them unless I can find them somewhere for purchase.
And then I might get stuck with something I don't like at all.
There is nowhere for me to rent most of these, and the few I have found for purchase are usually no longer being made, meaning that the people selling them are charging hundreds of dollars for one season of a 22-minute show.

Quite frankly, I don't have the money for that.

If I do end up really liking a show, then I'll purchase it. I've found that fan-subbed animes are much more accurate in terms of translation than those put out by companies who hold the licenses, which is another reason I like to watch the fan-subbed version first.

I've never been keen on the idea of downloading things you haven't paid for, but that line blurs for me when it comes to streaming. Maybe it isn't right, but that's just how it is for me.

[SSJ_Jup81]

Seems that most of the anime I've seen, fansubbed, have been of series that had yet to get a license or was either unlikely to ever get one. An example of this, I was recommended to watch the series Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu. It was fansubbed. Time I finished the series (got around to it, rather), a short while later, I found out that it was going to be licensed and dubbed and all that in the states. Getting right down to it, seems this happens to me a lot with anything I might check out that doesn't have a license when I watch it, and just get one later on.

Of course, all that above aside, there is the exception of one series that I do still watch fansubbed since I started off with it that way and it does have a dub now, but the dub is way behind where I am in the story. There's another series I watch fansubs of, but I'm not sure how it's done here in the states. It didn't show to gain enough popularity here in the states so I don't know how it's being marketed and all that stuff. I've only seen the Japanese version anyway, so not very knowledgeable on the state of its English counterpart.

As for the whole downloading thing, I, usually, download and then after I watch it, delete it (unless it's something I really really like, or something I might go back to for reference, if the series is an ongoing one). The main reason I download, is because I, personally, hate streaming videos. The net goes out, then the connection dies and has to be restarted. Download the file, and you can watch it whenever you're ready and not have to worry about having an internet connection to see it.

Even I really come across a series I like, I'd definitely buy it. I saw Deathnote fansubbed way before it was dubbed, licensed, and brought over here (even though, when the series was almost done in Japan, it got licensed), and since I did like it so much, I do intend on getting it someday. It's rare that I'd buy much anime since, unfortunately, it's rare that I come across a series that I really really liked. I'd be more quick to check out a new manga before buying an anime and most of my money goes towards that.

[Hysteria]

Anime is so expensive to buy here I'm not going to purchase a series without watching some first and it's near impossible to find video stores to rent series from. I'll watch fansubs online and then if I like the series I'll buy it 9/10 when I have the money. We don't get anime on freeTV here (except Death Note on SBS but it's got American dubs which I feel is insulting so I don't watch it) so fansubs really are the only place to watch anime without forking out a small fortune for a series you MIGHT like on dvd or payTV.
And as mentioned above, fansubs can sometimes be more accurate than the official versions.

[WitchHunter]

I've found that fan-subbed animes are much more accurate in terms of translation than those put out by companies who hold the licenses

And as mentioned above, fansubs can sometimes be more accurate than the official versions.

I hear that alot, but since my Japanese is limited to a small handful of words and a few basic phrases I can't tell if it's true. I'm sure subs of any sort are more accurate then dubs due to lip-syncing, but what about fansubs vs official subs. Its probably a waste of time to ask, but does anyone know a bit of Japanese who can confirm which is more accurate? I know I mentioned that some fansubs are of higher qualtiy, but I was talking more about the effort they put into typesetting, and how some groups will match the font of on-screen text like signs or written notes and place the translated text alongside the original, whereas official subs tend to just stick a line of text at the top of the screen. Take a look at FUNimation's sub of Shikabane Hime, which you can watch on FUNi's Youtube channel to see what I mean about low-quality official subs. (FUNi put it there, so it's legal, but I still don't want to link to it. It isn't exactly family-friendly.) There was no effort whatsoever put into typesetting, and as I mentioned the on-screen Japanese text was just translated along the top of the screen.
And I agree that anime is just too expensive outside Japan, even though I forgot to bring that up before.

[Hysteria]

I read fansub manga online too because the releases in Australia are SO far behind. I think we're only just into Shippuuden here (using Naruto as an example). It's terrible. I have a few Japanese friends and they have said that fansub anime is more accurate but fansub manga isn't so much. Apparently in the manga fans put in more swear words

[Tenshi]

I watch fansubs mainly because the original is not available here or it takes too long for the legal version to appear. Also are they always dubbing things here. I like to watch the subbed version for most anime, so watching things online is the only possiblity. But I'm not buying anime anyway, so the economy doesn't make a loss. When I can't watch it on TV or online, then I'm not watching it at all.

[Hysteria]

I don't like dubs either. My number 1 reason for not watching anime on TV (even though I think we only have Death Note on free to air TV here). Fansubs are far more convenient and don't make me want to throw things at my computer/TV screen.

[kuroi_shi]

... I have watched a few fansubs online, for anime that I really like, but isn't available in English.. However, when the series is available on DVD English, 9/10 times I will buy it.. (EX, I watched xxx-holic online over a year ago, then bought all the DVD's when they were available in English)
I also watch fansubs for anime that is played on TV, but is badly dubbed and censored to hell, and the english DVD's are also badly dubbed and censored. (EX, Cardcaptor Sakura.. The english version is terrible.. The dubbing is bad, and it was cut up so bad, that the english version is several episodes shorter than the japanese one.. They also put all the episodes in a different order.. An episode that I thought was towards the end, turned out to be episode 3... ... So.. I bought the entire fansubed series of CCS on DVD... I think censorship is more unethical than buying a fansub copy of an anime, that has not been hacked apart so badly that it's unrecognizable.)

[WitchHunter]

Originally Posted by kuroi_shi

... So.. I bought the entire fansubed series of CCS on DVD... I think censorship is more unethical than buying a fansub copy of an anime, that has not been hacked apart so badly that it's unrecognizable.)

Are you sure that it was a fansub, and not the official sub? Fansubs usually aren't bought, they're downloaded or streamed free of charge. The only time I've ever heard of them being sold is by bootleggers.

[kuroi_shi]

Originally Posted by WitchHunter

Are you sure that it was a fansub, and not the official sub? Fansubs usually aren't bought, they're downloaded or streamed free of charge. The only time I've ever heard of them being sold is by bootleggers.

It wasn't an official version.. The DVD quality is too terrible in some spots for it to be an official DVD.. And the subtitles are full of typos and spelling errors..
I've never had an official DVD with typos..
http://thepinksylphide.com/2008/02/2...artoon-bootleg <--- That's the one I have.. The case is different, but mine is done by "AnimeCartoon"

[Hysteria]

It wasn't an official version.. The DVD quality is too terrible in some spots for it to be an official DVD.. And the subtitles are full of typos and spelling errors

Sounds bootleg to me

[mexicant]

I haven't come across subs that were so bad in a licensed version as to make me want a fan-subbed version instead, but I do think the fan-subbed animes are more accurately done. They seem to get idioms a little better, in my experience.

[Artemis_Fowl_2]

Yes, fansubs are wrong. However I must admit to watching them. I only watch fansubs of unreleased material (not that that makes it morally okay). Then I usually only complete the series if I really enjoy it and then do my part and buy the DVDs once they are released. For example, I finished the Death Note series via fansubs, but now I am buying the DVDs for it. Currently I am watching Vampire Knight via fansubs and I will buy the DVDs once they are released. Again, this doesn't make it morally okay - this is just what I do.

[WitchHunter]

Originally Posted by mexicant

I haven't come across subs that were so bad in a licensed version as to make me want a fan-subbed version instead, but I do think the fan-subbed animes are more accurately done. They seem to get idioms a little better, in my experience.

As I said before I can't comment on accuracy, but to me it seems as though the official subs are geared towards a more general audience, while fansubers assume that their viewers will have at least some understanding of Japan. Personally I prefer the fansuber's way. Some things just don't translate well, especially between languages as different as Japanese and English, so I can see how some meaning would be lost when targeting a general audience.

[Drusilla]

Originally Posted by WitchHunter

I'm interested to know what people think about anime fansubs. Namely, is it ever ethical to create, distribute, or watch fansubs, and if so under what conditions does it remain ethical? To get started, please consider a few scenarios:
1. A series has not yet been licensed in your country, or it is unlikely that it ever will be.

This is the situation I find myself most commonly in- I'd be happy if it was licensed and available, but in the absence of that, I wouldn't consider it wrong to seek fansubs when the makers of the anime aren't putting their product anywhere near me (and therefore, seeking my money) in the first place. However, I'd like to have a physical, ink-and-paper book anyway, so I'd probably resort to asking someone to head to a Kinokuniya if they're going to a country that has one. Though that might not help, since most of the material I watch online is stuff that's never been licenced or released (I wouldn't, for instance, follow Naruto online).

Originally Posted by WitchHunter

2. A series has been licensed, but has not yet been made available; alternatively, a series has been licensed, but the company holding the license seems to have no intention of releasing it. This would be more for muti-series franchises such as Gundam or Macross, where a company may hold the license for the entire franchise but only release certain series.

Again, the product isn't available, but if there's the possibility that it might be out in the future, I'd wait for it and buy it once it's available. However, if a company is going to sit on its rights I'd probably go after fansubs once it becomes apparent that the product just isn't ever going to be available.

Originally Posted by WitchHunter

3. A series has been made legally available, but has not caught up to existing fansubs; alternatively, a portion of a series has been made available but has since been dropped by the company holding the license.

I'd follow the fansubs for the continuation of the series. Like in the previous two instances, it's a question of whether the company holding the licence will lose a potential sale if I watch a fansub- and given that they haven't put a product in the market to sell and aren't going to, it isn't actually a detriment to them IMO.

Originally Posted by WitchHunter

4. A series has been made available in its entirety, but has been heavily edited, especially in cases where the license holder refuses to release an unedited version, as has often been the case with 4Kids.

This happened in the case of two of my favourite anime- Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura, which were badly dubbed and heavily censored to the point where CCS looked like a different series in dubs. I oppose censorship on principle, but in such cases I'd buy as many DVDs as I could in the original Japanese (not the edited version) and keep the fansubs as a reference alongside those, simply because I'd feel guilty about making the mangaka lose out thanks to the subbing/dubbing company's bad decision.

Originally Posted by WitchHunter

5. This last one is not usually brought up, but its something I am personally curious about: A series has been made available in its entirety and unedited, but is of significantly lower quality then an existing or in-progress fansub. I will not mention names, since that would be essentially the same as providing links, but there are several fansubbing groups that consistently do a higher-quality job then anime-licensing companies.

I agree with that: fansubbers often tend to have a better feel for Japanese than the official translators, probably because they know they're catering to rabid fans (who know at least a little bit about Japan and the culture portrayed in the series) rather than the disinterested public. If a series is unedited and available, I'd certainly buy it, provided that the differences in quality aren't so obvious as to be glaring (like wrong translations, for instance), and so far I haven't found any series whose official, unedited version I'd actually skip in favour of a fansub. Though I'd probably watch the fansub anyway, even if I did own an entire series on DVD.

Here's another scenario to consider: what if a company's licence on a series has expired, and looks likely never to be renewed? Would it be all right to watch a series that isn't legally available any more (like Cardcaptor Sakura, Nelvana/Geneon no longer has the rights on that) through fansubs?

[WitchHunter]

I agree with that: fansubbers often tend to have a better feel for Japanese than the official translators, probably because they know they're catering to rabid fans (who know at least a little bit about Japan and the culture portrayed in the series) rather than the disinterested public. If a series is unedited and available, I'd certainly buy it, provided that the differences in quality aren't so obvious as to be glaring (like wrong translations, for instance), and so far I haven't found any series whose official, unedited version I'd actually skip in favour of a fansub. Though I'd probably watch the fansub anyway, even if I did own an entire series on DVD.

I don't want to give a name, since that would be as good as giving a link, which the mods have said not to do, but I'm thinking of one fansubbing group in particular that always does a much better job than any professional sub I've ever seen. They use font styles that are easier to see without having to focus on them, making it easier to watch the action on screen, and often match the font of on-screen text (signs, written letters, etc.) as well as align the translated text alongside the original. Sorry to be so vague, but I fear that even having this discussion is close to breaking the forum rules.

what if a company's licence on a series has expired, and looks likely never to be renewed? Would it be all right to watch a series that isn't legally available any more (like Cardcaptor Sakura, Nelvana/Geneon no longer has the rights on that) through fansubs?

I think that watching fansubs in that situation would be okay. If nobody's going to release it officially, it's a bit hard to criticize people for finding alternative ways to watch it.
That said, I have to admit my views on fansubs are a bit looser then most. I feel that fansubs are always okay unless official releases match the quality and availability of fansubs, and can be purchased/viewed for a reasonable price. An example would be FUNimation's sub of Shikabane Hime, which they have placed on their Youtube channel. It matches fansubs in availability and affordability (it's free to watch), but the quality doesn't even compare to the better fansubbing groups out there. It is also a bit behind the Japanese release, whereas fansubbers can often have an episode available for download within days of it airing in Japan, if not sooner.

[AkiraTakahashi]

I try to buy anime whenever I can, but I typically find the quality and accuracy of fansubs is better than official subs! Official subs, like dubs, try hard to Americanize whatever show it is. Japanese people just don't talk like Americans - at least not always - and no one wants to alienate the fanbase. Thus, I prefer fansubs over official ones, though I still try and support anime in America by buying the anime as well.

[Hysteria]

Anime is very expensive here most of the time (man I love the sales!! Major stock-up) and much of the time the prices are unreasonable. We get them very delayed compared to Asia and the US. If I love an anime I'll buy it after watching a fansub but I"m not going to wait months and months, pay twice what its worth for something which might not even be any good... and with bad subs.

[weasley]

Well, the anime I watch every week doesn't ever, ever release Japanese audio on their DVDs for either episodes or movies. They still edit the original BGM, cut the preview, and make AMV-like openings that are 30 seconds long, I suppose to keep in "tradition" as what 4Kids used to do. At least they don't make pointless edits or change flashbacks anymore...but watching fansubs is the only way I can watch and understand it in Japanese, I would happily buy it on DVD if I could (I actually have a lot of the dub DVDs). I usually have to watch it raw every Thursday and hope that a week later someone has subbed it :/ Luckily, it's not exactly the most complicated anime ever XD Although, episodes where there's lots of talking and you can't understand anything is kind of annoying...