Snape loved Lily?

[jordmundt6]

Dave--good theory except I don't think that small girl is Lily--it really just doesn't sound like her. I'm not sure Lily ever knew about James saving Snape. I'm guessing either James told her later or she didn't know period because this is something Dumbledore would want to keep very quiet because of Lupin's condition.

I think we saw the singular event. When Severus cut the cord, Lily stopped fighting the impulse to be amused by James. Once her defenses quavered a little that was the end of the story because James had a serious crush on her and does anything and everything he can to pursue and attain what he wants. I can see Snape bieng "that awful boy" though making their connection deeper before the OWL incident.

[Lupin_Lady]

Originally Posted by Mander

he called Lilly a mudblood for crissake....i'm pretty confident that he didn't love her.

My mum always says "Boys tease you coz they like you!"

[jordmundt6]

Furthermore we know he's never done it again and for that matter never disparaged her again. Very odd if his relationship were anything like Malfoy's the Hermione--sorry Leather & Lacers but that ship foundered before it ever weighed anchor--particularly given his penchant for pouring out every awful thing he can about James as often as he can.

[rotsiepots]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Rotsie--WHAT friendship? The ice didn't begin to thaw between Lily and James until AFTER the incident discussed. I can well believe Snape was aghast that the two of them started going out and hated Lily for what he saw as her bad judgment but here's something a little odd to chew on. Snape hates everything about James and has said so with trimmings, as often as possible. But he's never drawn Lily into that discussion, NOT ONCE. Isn't that a little odd for a DE, even an ex-DE? All their friends and all their enemies see the two as a unit "You'll meet the same sticky end as your parents one of these days Potter they were meddlesome fools too." "You'll be with your dear Mudblood mother soon enough." etc. etc. etc. And for Hagrid and the members of the DA Lily & James are seen as a unit as well. Only Dumbledore might be an exception to this. So Snape's attitude of HATING James but carefully avoiding dragging Lily into it EVER or blaming her for ANYTHING (not even trusting Black as Secret-Keeper) is extraordinary. Remember, even at his most insane when he was raving about the sweetness of vengeance and Harry thanking him on bended knee he never dragged Lily into it or spoke ill of her. Never. If he hated her for any reason or any length of time this stressor was the perfect opportunity to hear all about it, yet he kept himself in check. WHY?

I never said anything about a "friendship", Jordan.

[jordmundt6]

Sorry about that should have been "what relationship" since your premise was that Snape hated Lily because of her connection to James. What connection? They were enemies the day that Severus was humiliated. That might work for afterwards but not for the day we're trying to analyze. Sorry about the mix-up.

[GryffindorGr]

Originally Posted by Lupin_Lady

My mum always says "Boys tease you coz they like you!"

thats true. I've been privy to this when i was little and found out they liked me later. They were horrible to me though. One time I gave this boy a valentine card and he ripped it up in front of his friends and they all laughed!! I mean i was totally ****** and never talked to him again but later found out he was embaressed and actually liked me a lot. too bad for him anyway. lol. That was in grade school. yeah, I was a bit forward.

They do but i wonder along the lines of prejudice. the word mudblood, and let's say in modern time, a boy called you a S_ut or a B_? or some racial slur, would that mean he liked you? i'm still confused about that part. I dont know because if he was in front of his "other" friends like that boy who ripped up my valentine card to show off that he was cool and he wasn't going to display that he was all mushy over me then maybe. I dont really know. I can't explain why people act the way they do....only trying to remember my own experience in grade school and junior high. It was a most difficult time and very much rampant in hormonal and confusement.

jordmundt6, i dislike how you say the D/Hr are sunk and not even possible because at this point ANYthing is possible since we don't know the true outcome of pairings (since you refer to Leather and lace) so as long as NO one knows except JKR, then just leave it be that it isn't sunk until its set in stone!

like i said, i think he sort of liked lily. maybe after the incident because he probably never had anyone stand up for him ever. it probably put him to see lily in another light. I would like to see how he changed from being a DE and if it had any connection to the fact that it revolved around lily.

[Zachary1993]

I dont think Snape loved Lily because he called her a mudblood. He hated mudbloods he even joined the death eaters.

[shadowmystic]

Hmmzz..the romantic side of me would be inclined to think that snape did have an interest in lily.as many others have pointed out, he refrained from saying anything negative about lily. BUT than again, that could be out of respect for the memory of harry's dead mother who never laughed at him and stuck up for him in front of the whole school. he probably regretted calling lily a mudblood.

[rotsiepots]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Sorry about that should have been "what relationship" since your premise was that Snape hated Lily because of her connection to James. What connection? They were enemies the day that Severus was humiliated. That might work for afterwards but not for the day we're trying to analyze. Sorry about the mix-up.

Sorry, I should have clarified.

I think Snape has probably always disliked Lily for a variety of reasons. From their first to sixth years, he probably disliked her because she was a Muggle-born and therefore wasn't "worthy" of being taught magic (according to Snape's warped logic at the time, that is). I think he probably really began to loathe Lily when she started seeing James, though. I think Snape's attitude towards Lily before she started seeing James was more an indirect feeling of ill will, rather a specific vendetta, or anything like that. After their relationship started, however, I'm sure things became more focussed and very personal.

[George_MRMS]

Hi all . I think u have some interesting theories but....i think (JKR)tries to trick us!!i think the truth is behind the anagram of snapes name ..."severus snape"<------Perseus evans or persues evans".........EVANS!!!!!lillys surname is evans!!!!!so snape could be harrys uncle or something....thats all i have to say.If u have a different opinion plz tell me!!!

[Weatherby]

Well Dumbledore said Petunia was Lily's last living relative. Now Mark Evans is younger than Harry but Snape is not. He was alive when the spell was put in place.

I never understood how the theory that Snape loved Lily came into place.

[Spirit]

I think that, if Snape were a normal person that had a normal life, it would be possible. But he clearly didn't. He grew up with out any love, so that's how he lives his life. But if you give it a second thought, it sounds kind of likely. ::Shruggs:: I don't know, I think I'm confusing myself.

[angel14]

I think that SNAPE have feelings for Lily but I doubt that it's love...

[thinkpink38]

Love, why would he love Lily? Because I got the impression that he couldnt stand her. Infact she was trying to be sympathetic towards him but he kept resisting and fighting her, if you call that love then so be it.

[jordmundt6]

Rotsie--I can see this being valid but there's a huge hole here. If he disliked her and held conventional (hmm, wrong word--elitist?) views of Muggleborns why is it that he didn't lash out at her when she tried to help him. As many times as I've looked at this scene, I'd never really even considered this, but take another look. He doesn't badmouth her until James makes his snide remark about Severus being lucky that Lily was there to intercede for him. Severus was lashing out at JAMES in his pride, trying to demonstrate that he was a threat in his own right and should be taken seriously, not underestimated. He also didn't yell or curse up a storm when James demanded an apology (the height of hypocrisy). He didn't respond at all. He seems to be the one who's suddenly departed. He's gone. He doesn't say a word and doesn't react at all to James pointing his wand at him (unusual considering their history, no?) Also, when James vents his spleen at being rebuffed by implementing the same curse he just removed Snape says absolutely nothing. There is no yell of helples rage, no stream of curses, nothing. Is he ACCEPTING it as punishment for what he said? I doubt it, but it's just been elevated to a distinct possibility. Also, Snape has never said a single word against Lily to Harry. In all the disdain, hatred, and disparagement he heaps on James, even at his MOST insane, he NEVER EVER EVER drags Lily into the conversation. He is the only person so far who separates the couple. I don't think he loathed her after she started dating James. In fact, I think if he assigned any blame, it all went on James' shoulders. Very distinctive, especially for a DE since DEs usually treat Lily and James more or less the same (Lucius' description of them as "meddlesome fools" is typical) and tend to regard Lily as worse than James (pick a speech from Voldemort or Bellatrix). See what I mean?

thinkpink--How's this? Snape wasn't resisting Lily, he wasn't fighting her, he was fighting James. He came up with the ugliest thing he could think of to assert his independence and then when Lily cut ties seemed to stop reacting to the situation. What would happen if Hermione and Harry had a parting of the ways. Not a tiff or a fight like they sometimes have where they both have baggage for awhile and then they work it out. What if, for some reason, Hermione said to Harry "You disgust me. I don't ever want to see or speak to you again." How would Harry react?

[Kirten]

Originally Posted by pineapple

If Snape did have a crush on Lily, it'd be very tragic. I don't really think that he would though, because he did seem to have a bad attitude toward her because she was a "mudblood." Also, his ego as a 15 year old was probably severly damaged when she tried to stand up for him, which would lead more towards hate than love.

I am a long-time advocate of the theory that Snape was in love with Lily. It explains a lot of things. It explains why he hated James so much. It explains why he would hate Harry, even though he was Lily's child, because she died saving him. Most importantly, it is the best reason I have come up with for Dumbledore's confidence that Snape would never go back to Voldemort. If Voldemort killed the woman that he loved, probably the only one he ever loved, that would explain why he turned his back on the Death Eaters.

I think that theory took a bit of a hit in OoP, because of the "mudblood" comment and because James was portrayed as having given him more reason to dislike him than had previously been revealed. Nonetheless, I think he could have fallen for her even if he refused to admit to the Slytherins that he could have feelings for someone that was born of Muggles. I doubt that she felt anything more for him than sympathy for anyone who was the victim of bullying, but there may well have been more that happened that Harry never saw that would endear her to Snape.

[thinkpink38]

"thinkpink--How's this? Snape wasn't resisting Lily, he wasn't fighting her, he was fighting James. He came up with the ugliest thing he could think of to assert his independence and then when Lily cut ties seemed to stop reacting to the situation. What would happen if Hermione and Harry had a parting of the ways. Not a tiff or a fight like they sometimes have where they both have baggage for awhile and then they work it out. What if, for some reason, Hermione said to Harry "You disgust me. I don't ever want to see or speak to you again." How would Harry react?[/quote]


Well, first of all you have to remember that there in different houses, so theres one reason why he doesnt love her, second of all, its not her fault James was making fun of him infact she started sticking up for him, and he responds by calling her a mudblood, which is in my opinion completly random. And you say its because he wants to show his independence, in that case dont say he loved her he could have liked her. I understand that your sayiing that he doesnt need anyone to help him through this, but if he LOVED her he would have said something more...i dont know..something less random and mean! Besides if he did like her, wouldnt he be more sympa towards Harry, because that is all he has left of Lily? Even if harry is the son of James, your saying he loved her.
Are you comparing James with Lily? What does that have to do with Snape's hatred or love towards Lily?

"He doesn't badmouth her until James makes his snide remark about Severus being lucky that Lily was there to intercede for him."

Well, thats because he was jinxed, with the impediment jinx, remmember, besides that, its kinda hard to say something when you have soapsuds in your mouth. He was choking, and gaging!

[eVaNeScEnCe]

Originally Posted by Kirten

I am a long-time advocate of the theory that Snape was in love with Lily. It explains a lot of things. It explains why he hated James so much. It explains why he would hate Harry, even though he was Lily's child, because she died saving him. Most importantly, it is the best reason I have come up with for Dumbledore's confidence that Snape would never go back to Voldemort. If Voldemort killed the woman that he loved, probably the only one he ever loved, that would explain why he turned his back on the Death Eaters.

I think that theory took a bit of a hit in OoP, because of the "mudblood" comment and because James was portrayed as having given him more reason to dislike him than had previously been revealed. Nonetheless, I think he could have fallen for her even if he refused to admit to the Slytherins that he could have feelings for someone that was born of Muggles. I doubt that she felt anything more for him than sympathy for anyone who was the victim of bullying, but there may well have been more that happened that Harry never saw that would endear her to Snape.

I like that theory simply because I'm a hopeless romantic.

But seriously, I think Snape having loved Lily would add a lot of drama to the story, and would enhance the whole tortured-soul quality in Snape, but I'm not sure J.K. will want to take that soap opera route.
In any case, this is how I've always imagined the scenario: (I love making up countless fan fictions in my head y'know? )

Snape and Lily both start Hogwarts students as little innocent, wide-eyed kids. Snape is the instant oddball in school, garnering the dislike of many pupils, thus leading to a continuous bout of teasing and bullying. I'm thinking that in one of these scenarios, Lily comes and rescues Snape. They instantly become acquaintences, and Snape starts to slowly develop a crush on her. She is, after all, the only kind soul to give him the time of day. However, somewhere along the line, something happens to sever those ties of friendship. The most feasible reason I can think of for their falling out is that Snape's very pureblood and very proud parents find out he's friends with a "mudblood" and adamantly forbid him from ever interacting with her again. They poison and brainwash his still malleable and gullible mind into seeing her as nothing but trash and unworthy of his company. And it works. Snape, against his better will, personally breaks the bond they had built and attempts to erase her from his mind. As the years pass, however, his feelings don't change. Though his outward projection of dislike remains intact, his inner emotions fail to hide his true feelings. He can't deny it to himself any longer, but he can't admit it to anyone either, much less his parents.
Fast forward to time of Pensieve incident, after Snape calls Lily a mudblood. When Jame and Co. are done humiliating Snape, he retreats into the furthest corners of the school. Someone follows him, however. And so it is then that the confrontation between Lily and Snape ensues. Lily demands to know why he continues to be the way he is, why he shields himself from the whole world and rejects everyone? (think of one of those dramatic moments with the cheesy music playing in the background) She says that she wants to try and help him, like she did before, and to stop people from bullying him. She then asks him why he refused her friendship so long ago? Why he suddenly cut ties with her and transformed into just another prejudiced Slytherin? She tells him that she knows how vulnerable he truly is inside, and that she is willing to forgive him and be his friend again. Snape, being the arrogant and proud dope that he is, rejects this kind gesture of friendship. The way he sees it, his place in society
is sealed, and he knows that he will never be able to be with someone like Lily Evans so long as he remains a pureblood. But he never forgot the day that Lily Evans came up to him and offered her kind and loving friendship once again. He realized that he had lost his chance forever, but also knew that he would never love another woman like she. So he continued to live with his bottled and tormenting emotions, knowing that he could never express how he truly felt for the only girl who had ever been kind to him, and accepting the fact that he has to lose her to his worse nemesis: James Potter. And so, Snape's Worse Memory became complete.

[GryffindorGr]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Rotsie--I can see this being valid but there's a huge hole here. If he disliked her and held conventional (hmm, wrong word--elitist?) views of Muggleborns why is it that he didn't lash out at her when she tried to help him. As many times as I've looked at this scene, I'd never really even considered this, but take another look. He doesn't badmouth her until James makes his snide remark about Severus being lucky that Lily was there to intercede for him. Severus was lashing out at JAMES in his pride, trying to demonstrate that he was a threat in his own right and shouldn't be taken seriously. He also didn't yell or curse up a storm when James demanded an apology (the height of hypocrisy). He didn't respond at all. He seems to be the one who's suddenly departed. He's gone. He doesn't say a word and doesn't react at all to James pointing his wand at him (unusual considering their history, no?) Also, when James vents his spleen at being rebuffed by implementing the same curse he just removed Snape says absolutely nothing. There is no yell of helples rage, no stream of curses, nothing. Is he ACCEPTING it as punishment for what he said? I doubt it, but it's just been elevated to a distinct possibility. Also, Snape has never said a single word against Lily to Harry. In all the disdain, hatred, and disparagement he heaps on James, even at his MOST insane, he NEVER EVER EVER drags Lily into the conversation. He is the only person so far who separates the couple. I don't think he loathed her after she started dating James. In fact, I think if he assigned any blame, it all went on James' shoulders. Very distinctive, especially for a DE since DEs usually treat Lily and James more or less the same (Lucius' description of them as "meddlesome fools" is typical) and tend to regard Lily as worse than James (pick a speech from Voldemort or Bellatrix). See what I mean?

thinkpink--How's this? Snape wasn't resisting Lily, he wasn't fighting her, he was fighting James. He came up with the ugliest thing he could think of to assert his independence and then when Lily cut ties seemed to stop reacting to the situation. What would happen if Hermione and Harry had a parting of the ways. Not a tiff or a fight like they sometimes have where they both have baggage for awhile and then they work it out. What if, for some reason, Hermione said to Harry "You disgust me. I don't ever want to see or speak to you again." How would Harry react?

Wow. That was a good post. Very good.

[kittyboy]

Pretty good . Ohh daytime soap crashes into nightime falls into Hogwart (High) I have never cared for the exaggerated romantic urban myth "Poor oddball boy in high school/ middle school "fall in love ' with the popular girl " too made for tv movie cross between Danielle Steel & Judy Blume we know the kids are isolated and Hogwarts is a small school the kids probably had "crushes" or I as I prefer "calf or puppy love " feelings(o.k horny works too) on boys/girlsin diffrent houses they would not touch with a 10 foot pole . Until JK can prove it in book 6 or 7 that it was at least a rejected friendship between the angelic Lilly and Severus I can't buy into him being the pining away for her during school and even in death. Maybe the reason he dosen't speak ill /poorly of Lilly in front of Harry is because she meant so little to him ? If you don't bad mouth classmates or co/workers does that mean your secretly in love with all of them too being first, the girlfriend then wife of James just didn't bring out the " oh my aching heart I'll swear I'm going to die "feeling inside Severus even as a adult.
Kittyboy