The Twilight series by Stephenie Meyer v.3

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

The funny thing about Edward's desire to protect Bella, is that the greatest danger posed to her, is from Edward. He constantly uses predator/prey analogies when talking about them being together and much of the "plot" is based on his fear of injuring her in some form or another. She'd have been much safer had he turned her into a vampire immediately after meeting her, or staying away from her entirely since all the jeopardy she is placed in (from Victoria, from James, from Laurent, from the Volturi etc...) comes about entirely due to her relationship with Edward

I'm torn about this issue, actually. On the one hand I find it somewhat admirable that Edward doesn't just turn Bella into a vampire right away - sort of the idea that he would turn her into a vampire and then realize that oh, he's not really in love with her or they're not a good match or whatever and suddenly he's either stuck with the girl he's made a vampire or he's responsible for creating her and then setting her loose on the world...

At the same time, though, I find Edward's supposed regard for human life very Interview With The Vampire rip-off-y. In fact, the whole Cullen family being "vegetarians" is a rip off of Louis from Interview with the Vampire - to me, Twilight is like really badly written Interview with the Vampire fanfiction with uninteresting characters and uninteresting plots. I keep expecting at some point to see Edward turn to Bella and say "I'm going to give you the choice I never had..."

[AldeberanBlack]

One thing occured to me when Edward mentioned being a veggie vampire. Why don't animals turn into vampires? Presumably when the Cullens bite a mountain lion, they inject venom into their bloodstream. So why no vampire lions? If Meyer is able to use garbled gibberish pseudo-scientific arguments to explain how a 100 year old vampire can father a child with an 18 year old human, and why female werewolves cannot bear children, despite male werewolves being fully capable, then I demand answers from her!

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

One thing occured to me when Edward mentioned being a veggie vampire. Why don't animals turn into vampires? Presumably when the Cullens bite a mountain lion, they inject venom into their bloodstream. So why no vampire lions?

I'd presume they actually drain them of their blood, not just bite them and see how it goes.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, that's what I got out of that myself. They can use their venom to inject anyone if they so choose to, but maybe it doesn't affect animals as it does humans. That would be kind of cool though if it did.

I think it's hilarious how Edward is always saying that Bella is a magnet for danger when he's the reason she's a magnet for danger in the first place.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

One thing occured to me when Edward mentioned being a veggie vampire. Why don't animals turn into vampires? Presumably when the Cullens bite a mountain lion, they inject venom into their bloodstream. So why no vampire lions? If Meyer is able to use garbled gibberish pseudo-scientific arguments to explain how a 100 year old vampire can father a child with an 18 year old human, and why female werewolves cannot bear children, despite male werewolves being fully capable, then I demand answers from her!

Initially I'd say because the animal isn't bitten and left to transform, they are sucked dry of blood and killed before any transformation could happen.

If, though, an animal is bitten and the vampire is interrupted before it can be killed, the reason, I would presume, for the animal not turning into a vampire would be one of species inappropriateness; it would be as simple as the vampire's venom only being able to turn a human into a vampire.

Perhaps there's some genetic marker or amino acid in humans that makes the transformation possible.

Perhaps there's something missing in an animal's body that forbids the transformation from taking place.

Perhaps the vemon introduces something into the body that is only able to bind to human cells or interact with human body chemistry.

Perhaps the venom simply acts differently in animals due to the animal having different body chemistry - it acts like a poison instead of a tranformation venom so the animal who is bitten would suffer a long slow death by poisoning instead of the painful transformation.

Perhaps it has to do with the size of the animal - a bear is a helluva lot bigger than a human, maybe there's just not enough venom introduced for the bear to make a full transformation and it dies midway through a transformation. A mountain lion is roughly equivalent to humans in weight (averaging 100-160lbs) so one of my other suggestions must be a factor (body chemistry, how the venom interacts with the body, etc).

[AldeberanBlack]

All good theories, but I'm calling for it right now, a Twilight spin off called "Vampire Wildlife"

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

All good theories, but I'm calling for it right now, a Twilight spin off called "Vampire Wildlife"

Come now, you can come up with a better spin off title than that!

What about Mutual of Omaha's Vampire Kingdom

[AldeberanBlack]

That sounds good. Let's go with that.


I was reading Stephenie Meyer's website, where she addresses accusations that Twilight is anti-feminist. She defends herself by saying that some feminists scorn women who make the decision to be mothers and wives, which she says is Bella's choice. I find this to be a poor retort. Bella doesn't choose to be a mother. She has no clue that pregnancy could be a possibility by having a relationship with a vampire. Her decision to have the child, is also not really based on ambitions of motherhood, which she never really expresses in the novels before the pregnancy occurs, but rather yet again, a desire to elevate Edward (or in this case, his offspring) to sacred status. When Edward comes up with the plan to remove the demon spawn and let Jacob father a child with Bella instead, Bella makes it very clear that merely having a child isn't the point, but having Edward's child specifically. She is not enamoured with motherhood. It's all merely part of the further worship of Twilight's male Mary Sue. As far as marriage is concerned, again, Bella doesn't show any indication of marital ambitions until she is practically blackmailed into a wedding as part of Edward's price for turning her into a vampire. Again, no "choice" is made. It's coercion, and since the coercion is being instigated by the male Mary Sue, the lead female character submits.

[Yoana]

Ah, "choice feminism"... where women are empowered by any choice they make...

[Moriath]

What always rankled me the most about Twilight is the lack of conflict. Renesmee doesn't kill Bella at birth, the Volturi don't kill anyone who counts and especially not the Cullens, Bella never has any problems with uncontrollably blood lust after her transition, Bella's mother is completely fine with her daughter marrying right out of school, her father is okay with his son-in-law being a vampire...no conflict. Or as JKR would say, all ends well. This never sat right with me.

[Wab]

Originally Posted by Yoana

Ah, "choice feminism"... where women are empowered by any choice they make...

Any informed choice made freely is, by definition, empowering. Not that anything Bella does is informed.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Moriath

What always rankled me the most about Twilight is the lack of conflict. Renesmee doesn't kill Bella at birth, the Volturi don't kill anyone who counts and especially not the Cullens, Bella never has any problems with uncontrollably blood lust after her transition, Bella's mother is completely fine with her daughter marrying right out of school, her father is okay with his son-in-law being a vampire...no conflict. Or as JKR would say, all ends well. This never sat right with me.

Ug, dont' get me started on what boring books they are! The first book is interesting in that there is the possibility (though never realized in the series) that Edward could kill Bella. The second book is moderately interesting in that Bella must choose between the boy who is mind****ing her and the boy who seems to have her interests are heart (whether he does or not is up to interpretation). The third book is completely useless and the fouth book is, to me, the biggest disappoinment in literature I've ever come across or read personally. NOTHING happens. The grand climax of the story comes and everyone stands around talking.

I agree that weight and seriousness could have been added by having one of the Cullens reap the ultimate fate of what the Volturi are threatening, but then would it be a supernatural romance if that happened? (I don't read romance novels so I don't know)

The most interesting character in the entire series to me is Jasper because he does seem to struggle with his choice to be a :cough: vegetarian and he does think it's natural for vampires to kill humans. So his struggle is foisted on him by an outside force - Alice - and his personal choice to be with her. I wish the story would have focused on Jasper because he seems to be where the real story is. What if Jasper, who believed it right for a vampire to kill humans, fell in love with a human? That would be an interesting story. Not Edward and Bella.

Originally Posted by Wab

Any informed choice made freely is, by definition, empowering. Not that anything Bella does is informed.

I think the prevailing idea of what "being a feminist" is is about expressing your right to work, assert your authority and to make the decision to hold a job after the baby is born, that women are judged more harshly for choosing to work instead of being home with the baby, that that is the patriarchal decree and they should have to be the ones to stay at home is a prejudice against the female sex and that's wrong.

For me, feminism isn't any of that. It's is a woman's right to choose whatever role she wants in life. If she feels more fulfilled working than being at home with the baby than go for it. If she feels more fulfilled by being a stay at home mom than going back to work, power to ya. If she chooses not to be a mother that's okay, too. If she wants to be at home with the baby but is "forced" to work due to circumstances such as being a single mom or coming from a low-income family than who are we to judge? I am offended when I am told that a choice I have made in my life is "wrong," whether that offence is coming from the women's-right-to-work group or the soccer-mom camp. That's a decision that is up to me and the person I've chosen to spend my life with, it's not up to anyone else. My only hope for women is that whatever they choose to do that they have thought it through and have chosen the right path for themselves and their families. To me, that is feminism: women being able to choose what they want to do.

Bella, as said previously, doesn't make any of these choices. She is blinding following after Edward and being completely servile to him. She chooses marriage not because she wants to be married at the age of 18 but because it's the only way she can keep Edward and get what she wants from him: to be with him forever as a vampire. She chooses to have the baby not because she has always wanted to be a mother but because it is the spawn of Edward, her Adonis, her Greek god. She didn't choose to keep the baby because she thought abortion was wrong, she kept it because of Edward.

The Twilight Series is not feminist. It is Bella's choice but she is not making those choices from a place of, as Wab says, being informed. She didn't have to time to come to terms with her pregnancy before she decided that she did or didn't want to keep the baby, she realized it was Edwards and immediately decided she had to have it.

[AldeberanBlack]

Spoiler: show

Along with the lack of conflict, there's no drama or uncertainty.

Twilight - Bella immediately falls in love with Edward for no reason other than the way he looks and smells. She's almost universally accepted by virtually everyone 1- at school, with the exception of Lauren who's is irrelevant to anything in the series in any case, and 2- by the Cullen family, aside from Rosalie, who eventually becomes her devoted protector anyway. The only threat comes from James, who logically should not be a threat, since he's one vampire pursuing someone protected by an entire family of vampires, who easily kill him. Edward constantly tells Bella that he's dangerous, but she doesn't mind and he never bites her.

New Moon - The supposedly romantic lead brutally dumps Bella, for reasons that are bewildering stupid. This leads to the Jacob storyline where our female lead and supposed heroine uses him as little more than a nicotine patch after her cigarettes have been denied to her. There's never any doubt that she will eventually pick Edward, so the "love triangle" drama never begins. Laurent poses a threat to Bella, which makes no sense, even with the internal logic of the Twilight universe, and then he's easily killed. A comical misunderstanding leads to the convienently wealthy Cullens being able to take Bella to Italy, where the supposed main antagonists, the Volturi, present Bella with the oh-so-threatening choice of death (which we know will not happen), or being a vampire (which she wants anyway). It's like the villain of a story giving the hero a choice of death, or to eat chocolate, get a foot massage, and watch their favourite TV show

Eclipse - The entire book builds up to a war which is easily won by the "good guys". Victoria, the character who is supposedly a great danger to Bella (and who's revenge plot is based on nothing rational) is easily killed.

Breaking Dawn - Bella has a perfect child and becomes the greatest ever vampire that ever has ever lived (ever!) and also has the power to create shields, and thus ends any possibility of drama because she is now the SuperMarySue. Her comically inept father is oblivious to this. The Volturi arrive and....then leave.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

Spoiler: show

Along with the lack of conflict, there's no drama or uncertainty.

Twilight - Bella immediately falls in love with Edward for no reason other than the way he looks and smells. She's almost universally accepted by virtually everyone 1- at school, with the exception of Lauren who's is irrelevant to anything in the series in any case, and 2- by the Cullen family, aside from Rosalie, who eventually becomes her devoted protector anyway. The only threat comes from James, who logically should not be a threat, since he's one vampire pursuing someone protected by an entire family of vampires, who easily kill him. Edward constantly tells Bella that he's dangerous, but she doesn't mind and he never bites her.

New Moon - The supposedly romantic lead brutally dumps Bella, for reasons that are bewildering stupid. This leads to the Jacob storyline where our female lead and supposed heroine uses him as little more than a nicotine patch after her cigarettes have been denied to her. There's never any doubt that she will eventually pick Edward, so the "love triangle" drama never begins. Laurent poses a threat to Bella, which makes no sense, even with the internal logic of the Twilight universe, and then he's easily killed. A comical misunderstanding leads to the convienently wealthy Cullens being able to take Bella to Italy, where the supposed main antagonists, the Volturi, present Bella with the oh-so-threatening choice of death (which we know will not happen), or being a vampire (which she wants anyway). It's like the villain of a story giving the hero a choice of death, or to eat chocolate, get a foot massage, and watch their favourite TV show

Eclipse - The entire book builds up to a war which is easily won by the "good guys". Victoria, the character who is supposedly a great danger to Bella (and who's revenge plot is based on nothing rational) is easily killed.

Breaking Dawn - Bella has a perfect child and becomes the greatest ever vampire that ever has ever lived (ever!) and also has the power to create shields, and thus ends any possibility of drama because she is now the SuperMarySue. Her comically inept father is oblivious to this. The Volturi arrive and....then leave.

A comical and very true analysis.

Spoiler: show

Breaking Dawn - Bella has a perfect child and becomes the greatest ever vampire that ever has ever lived (ever!)
...
Her comically inept father is oblivious to this. The Volturi arrive and....then leave.

exactly

[AldeberanBlack]

I didn't understand why they didn't just tell Charlie that his daughter was a vampire. He seemed to accept the existence of werewolves without much fuss. Let's face it, not much would change in terms of her personality. Bella would still be a self-centred emo, only now she'd be one forever.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by Wab

Any informed choice made freely is, by definition, empowering. Not that anything Bella does is informed.

Well that's exactly the problem, isn't it. "Choice feminism" doesn't spend too much time wondering on the informed aspect of choice. It's basically a carte blanche to do whatever you want, including support anti-women policies, and still call it feminist merely because you're a woman, or your character is a woman. This is exactly what Meyer is doing with that quote.

[BubblyShell22]

I think BD is the worst in portraying Bella as the Mary Sue. I think it would've been better if she had lost control at least once just to prove that even though she's been prepared for all of this with the Cullens telling her about it, she still isn't perfect at controlling her thirst. I can understand why Jasper would feel the way he does because he didn't have that control at all during his transformation. I think it's stupid that the other Cullens merely accept this and think it's so amazing when they should also be just as upset that this didn't happen to them.

[AldeberanBlack]

There's no downside to being a vampire and no upside to remaining human in the Meyerverse. That's part of the problem of why there's no drama. Bella loses nothing and gains everything by becoming one.

[HRW]

Well after resisting the Twillight temptation for years I finally fell prey to the hype and read the books over the last month and as Lord Voldemort would say, I confess myself disappointed.

What exactly is the plot in the books? I know it's a romance series and eventually Bell and Edward get together but throughout the series I was looking for some sort of plot to materialise and it never did.

Why exactly does Bella love Edward? Other than her constant and nauseating thoughts of how god like he is there is no other reason given as to why she likes him and it makes her look rather shallow.

Are we seriously supposed to believe Charlie is some high up police chief?

The most annoying thing about the series are the Mary Sue's. In Harry Potter even the wise old man Dumbledore has huge flaws. There's no character progression at all.

How on earth have these books generated so much hype? How the hell did anyone get through first part of the second book without cursing Meyer?

[AldeberanBlack]

Spoiler: show

Twilight makes more sense if you pretend that all of it takes place in the mind of Bella Swan.

She goes to a new school and is immediately popular. She is the sole object of desire from an impossibly beautiful and flawless male who's entire existence seems to be to protect her. She is further desired by an absurdly physically attractive best friend who wants nothing more than her love. She lives in a world of mythical beings who either devote all their attention and time on wanting to kill her, or wanting to protect her.

And ultimately she ends up with superpowers and becomes the greatest ever vampire that has ever existed with unique attributes and abilities, and has a perfect child that requires no effort on her part to raise, and lives happily ever after.

It sounds like that episode of Buffy where they go into an alternate universe where the school outcast is impossibly successful and famous.