"There's probably no God" UK Bus Campaign

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by leah49

Interesting. I agree with the ad, of course, but I have to be fair, I guess. If I'm against the no God ad I should be against this one, too, right?

Well this is how freedom of speech and expression works. You don't have to approve of the atheist message to be able to approve of their right to express it. That's the beauty of the campaign and having freedom of expression. I don't take umbrage with religious groups who respond in this way. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I wouldn't deny them the right to express it either.

The atheist campaign has an explanation about the 'probably' on its website that I just found. Not sure it's been linked here yet. Here it is.

extract:

…transport advertising regulations are more stringent than normal advertising regulations (for billboards, etc) and the decision of whether to run the ad or not is very much at the discretion of the bus companies. It’s their private space, and their criteria for this (I know it’ll make all atheists reading this bang their head against a wall, but here goes) is that the advert “must not offend religious people”.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by MmeBergerac

If we must renounce to anything that can cause strife or opposition, the world will be so dull than then it will really be a relief to think that there's an afterlife. I agree that atrocities have been made in the name of religion, but whenever there's been an atheist regime, the result has not been happier. And I don't think anyone wants to renounce to democracy or freedom, though there have been a lot of iniquities in their name, too.



I disagree. Honestly, I don't think that world-wide atheism would provide a better distribution of riches, universal peace and freedom, stop famines and civil wars, annihilate corruption and bring the global happiness to humankind. There are too many major problems that have little to do with religion. And, about those which have, it would be enough that everyone learnt to respect the other's freedom.

I never said worldwide atheism would be better, merely that making religion such a big deal is what causes many atrocities. i may not be religious, but I think it's a good thing. It gives people something to believe in and a set of rules and laws to follow and guide, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse. I refuse to believe that the Bible says that white people are better than black people or all that other stuff, and that's what I'm against. And i don't think religion is something that wars should be fought over.

Originally Posted by Morgoth

The Spanish have responded



An advertisement reading ”God does exist, enjoy your life with Christ” is seen on a metropolitan bus in Madrid January 14, 2009. The campaign is a response to an atheist advertising campaign whose advertisement read ”Theres probably no god. Don't worry, and enjoy your life”. REUTERS

OMG!!!I could understand it without reading the translation!!! Sorry, I jsut had to say that . This is actually kind of getting comical for me. I hope not one takes these too seriously, and I like the way how the religious are fighting back

[MmeBergerac]

I refuse to believe that the Bible says that white people are better than black people or all that other stuff

You're right at not believing that, because I'm quite sure the Bible doesn't say it. And of course religion shouldn't be used as an excuse.

See how funny: I live in Madrid and I've had to come to the forums to learn about the counter-ad! (well, it's green, so it's a mid-distance, whic I don't usually take). Well, at 8 am it's a miracle I can see the traffic ligts, let alone reading bus ads.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

by the way, what do you mean a mid distance? And I find it kind of funny that people even notice bus ads. Whenever I see a bus, all I really see is a large mass of indistinguishable color, but then again, I'm half blind

[Yoana]

To answer the last question of the orginal post, because I don't think I did, this kind of an ad would go completely unnoticed here in my post-socialist country. If people notice it, it would be to wonder why anyone would feel the need to put that on a bus. There's nothing to react against here; religion is a joke, as sad as it is. And I can tell you from observation of an overwhelmingly atheist society, atheism doesn't make people any happier.

[LikeLuna]

Originally Posted by leah49

My point about the Bible belt was to say that we aren't bad like we're being painted to be. We don't normally shout to the masses of non-believers that they will be sent to Hell. There is the crazy guy on the street corner, but the majority of us are not like that. Every group has it's crazies. We don't condemn people to try to bring them to our religion. That's not showing love. I've been all over the southeastern US (as well as other places, but mostly the southeast) and I haven't seen any ads telling non-Christians that they'll go to hell and be damned for not being Christian. I see signs advertising churches and the ones that act like God's speaking to them that say things like "Meet at my house on Sunday before the game. -God."

I don't think there's any need to lump everyone living in the Bible Belt together. There actually are non-religious people living there, and there are religious fanatics who do tell people they're going to hell (I've been told this before).

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

I never said worldwide atheism would be better, merely that making religion such a big deal is what causes many atrocities. i may not be religious, but I think it's a good thing. It gives people something to believe in and a set of rules and laws to follow and guide, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse. I refuse to believe that the Bible says that white people are better than black people or all that other stuff, and that's what I'm against. And i don't think religion is something that wars should be fought over.

It seems to me this kind of fanaticism happens when people start to worship their religion instead of worshiping God. I think that's roughly the message of the signs - life right now is what's truly important. Now, belief or disbelief in God has a huge impact on how one goes about living life, but the point as I see it is to not get too hung up on the details, which is a message most of us can agree with.

[MmeBergerac]

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

by the way, what do you mean a mid distance? And I find it kind of funny that people even notice bus ads. Whenever I see a bus, all I really see is a large mass of indistinguishable color, but then again, I'm half blind

Er... less than 80 km? A bit farther, maybe. Green buses join the towns around Madrid with the city, it's a metropolitan network.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by LikeLuna

It seems to me this kind of fanaticism happens when people start to worship their religion instead of worshiping God. I think that's roughly the message of the signs - life right now is what's truly important. Now, belief or disbelief in God has a huge impact on how one goes about living life, but the point as I see it is to not get too hung up on the details, which is a message most of us can agree with.

exactly, I completely agree

Originally Posted by MmeBergerac

Er... less than 80 km? A bit farther, maybe. Green buses join the towns around Madrid with the city, it's a metropolitan network.

oh ok. Maybe they should've changed the color then , just to make it more noticable

[Beatifically]

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

I really don't think the ad will change that but what I think the ad means is that if we stop thinking in terms of a being that may or may not be there, or even a being that not everyone concretely believes in, perhaps there would be less major problems in the world.

If the ad was intended to get that message across, then I have to disagree; life isn't going to be devoid of problems if there isn't religion. People are always going to use religion as an excuse for their actions or to convince people that they're right. I know it sounds misanthropic, but a lot of the problems in the world are caused by humans. Besides, people also use things inherently good to justify their actions. For instance, in abusive relationships a person may use love as an excuse for what he or she is doing. Does that mean love is bad? No - the blame rests on the person. I think Ghandi summed it up well: “The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives.”

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Well this is how freedom of speech and expression works. You don't have to approve of the atheist message to be able to approve of their right to express it.

I don't see this as a matter of rights. If the advertisers bought the privilege of running the ad, then private citizens are not required to approve of anyone's right to do anything. If I tore down the sign in protest, I would go to jail vandalism, not for abridging someone's right to expression. The excerpt you provided is proof that freedom and rights have far less to do with this than does money. If said private citizens have a problem with any of these billboards, I can't imagine the Constitution or what have you should provide any relief. They could organize, campaign, and boycott, and all without the involvement of any particular amendments.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by Beatifically

If the ad was intended to get that message across, then I have to disagree; life isn't going to be devoid of problems if there isn't religion. People are always going to use religion as an excuse for their actions or to convince people that they're right. I know it sounds misanthropic, but a lot of the problems in the world are caused by humans. Besides, people also use things inherently good to justify their actions. For instance, in abusive relationships a person may use love as an excuse for what he or she is doing. Does that mean love is bad? No - the blame rests on the person. I think Ghandi summed it up well: “The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives.”

I'm going to repeat, I'm not saying that we should have no religion. I'm saying that not everyone believes in the same thing, so religion should not be used as an excuse. Besides the first part, the rest was basically what i was trying to say but with different words. Religion is not something inherently bad, it's using it as something that's concrete and as an excuse that's bad. There are all sorts of ways religion can be interpreted so people shouldn't use it as a way to justify their actions and expect people to agree with them. I'm not saying that's going to happen, or that's it's realistic, simply that's what i think the sign is saying.

[LikeLuna]

Originally Posted by Beatifically

For instance, in abusive relationships a person may use love as an excuse for what he or she is doing. Does that mean love is bad? No - the blame rests on the person.

I just have to say that that is a perfect example! Lots of people argue that religion causes violence and hate, but this is a great way to explain that this is not the case.

[kuroi_shi]

... I like the ad...
There are highly religious ads in existence (I see them every time I get on the bus... The most annoying are the "Bus stop bible study" ads), and I put up with it, Even though they offend me greatly... So the religious people should have to put up with an atheist ad... It works both ways...
.. Some people just have to stop being so sensitive.. If they can flaunt their religion, others should be allowed to flaunt atheism...
... Here in Toronto, there probably would not be a problem with an ad like that.

... For now though... I hate religion... It's become way too Political for me...

[leah49]

An ad for a Bible study and the ad saying there probably is no God are not the same things. One is saying there's a Bible study and if you want to join us you can. It isn't about religion, it's about a meeting of people who want to study the Bible. The other is about someone having a belief and wanting to express that belief.

[kuroi_shi]

€

Originally Posted by leah49

An ad for a Bible study and the ad saying there probably is no God are not the same things. One is saying there's a Bible study and if you want to join us you can. It isn't about religion, it's about a meeting of people who want to study the Bible. The other is about someone having a belief and wanting to express that belief.

.. No.. the bus stop bible study ads are different... "Bus stop bible study" is just a title..
The ads consist of bible verses, that are supposed to make life better, and solve all your problems..
They provide no info at all on bible study classes.. No location, dates or anything..

. So, I don't see why that should be ok, but an ad for atheism is not.
... I don't think the bible study ads are all that different from the atheist one...

.. http://www.busstopbiblestudies.com/ <-- Thats their web site.. They claim to want to put "God on every bus" Which sounds like trying to force religion on people to me..

... The site states that the atheist ads are coming to Canada... but they believe in religious freedom, so they're not going to protest, which I respect, but they're going to put up more bible ads as a response..

... I don't really see these ads as Anti-christian, but as Pro atheist... And, it's about time Atheists had their say.

[Beatifically]

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

I'm going to repeat, I'm not saying that we should have no religion. I'm saying that not everyone believes in the same thing, so religion should not be used as an excuse.

I actually had read your posts and knew how you felt prior to posting that. I was just commenting on how the campaign would be oversimplifying world problems by claiming that religion is the cause. I apologize if that hadn't been clearer!

Besides the first part, the rest was basically what i was trying to say but with different words. Religion is not something inherently bad, it's using it as something that's concrete and as an excuse that's bad. There are all sorts of ways religion can be interpreted so people shouldn't use it as a way to justify their actions and expect people to agree with them.

Religion itself isn't bad, it's the interpretation. People see what they want to see. If they want to find an excuse for themselves for doing inhumane crimes, they often use religion.

[Yoana]

In support of the statements about using religion as an excuse rather than religion in itself bing the cause of oppression or violence or whatnot, I would like to point out the numerous and fairly ghastly crimes done by the communist regimes in the Eatern block under the banner of absolute atheism, including many atrocities done to the clergy. History says that villifying religion can be just as good an excuse for massive crimes against huge groups of people as can be glorifying it.

[Hes]

I think it's better if we drop the subject of religion/atheism in connection with violence, it will lead us too far away from the original topic of this thread.

[LewsTherin]

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

Slogan wars would be a problem, but that would only happen because people can't handle this maturely. Curtailing discussion or expression of non-majority opinions isn't necessarily the way to go.

I think it's a small thing to make a big fuss out of, but if I did take it seriously, my response would be thus...

How many people can actually handle this maturely? We're dealing with thousands of people, only a very small majority of whom would be mature about it (the mature people would be the folks who chuckle, then move on). The way I see it, the ad is not aimed at promoting peace and harmony. It's rather like waving a red flag in front of a bull; you don't do that unless you're wanting to pick a fight with the bull. The folks who made the ad would know there are Christians/Muslims/Jews/Etc who are going to see this and be offended, which is the point (you make an ad, you want people to look at it). If the point is to get people talking, it would and has succeeded (we're talking about it) but if the intention was to get people talking to other people of different beliefs (notice I said talking, not arguing), then it has failed, as my experience is that such statements automatically polarize people, rather than encouraging any kind of debate (and it has polarized the people in this thread). The folks who made it must have known the latter would be the case (athiests are not stupid after all). So, we must conclude that this is a deliberate red flag waved at the religious folks, as well as spreading the athiest's 'gospel.' Doing that - sticking your opinion in someone else's face - is a dodgy way of doing things, and one I would not agree with.

What's interesting to note is that the ad was a response to Christians employing the same methods. Thus, we already have a slogan-war.

As a Christian myself, my philosophy is "go out today and preach the Gospel and if you must use words." Do that and you've no need for bus-slogans.

[junika3]

Originally Posted by LewsTherin

The folks who made the ad would know there are Christians/Muslims/Jews/Etc who are going to see this and be offended, which is the point (you make an ad, you want people to look at it).

Could the same be said of atheists when they see pro-religion adverts?