Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.10

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I agree that sometimes there doesn't appear to be much of a choice available. In fact, I think that was part of what Rowling was trying to show, that choices made a long time ago by other people will matter and sometimes circumstances cannot be changed by those who are most effected. However, I think she also makes a point that there is always the choice in how someone faces these circumstances.

Does it matter?

I would say yes. I think if Snape wanted to be part of the oppressive elite, then there probably wasn't much choice in his path to get there. But not everyone inside the Ministry or out of it is like that. Snape would have to realize that if he wanted to attain that narrow goal, his choices would be limited, but there were other goals possible. He would just have to recognize that they exist. he wouldn't get everything he wanted. Of course, he didn't get everything he wanted anyway.

I meant something entirely different. Sometimes the choices we make are not really choices at all was what I meant. Those actions may be right, wrong or inconsequential; still some people choose because they really had no other choice or because they had nothing or no one to choose for IMO.

Why did Snape choose to become a DE? Did he really want the power and glory or did he want to kill muggleborns and muggles or was he attracted by Voldemort's ideology?

I don't think it was any of these three specific reasons. What I feel happened was that Snape moved gradually towards those who were wannabe DEs from the time Lily started moving away from him. (Please note I am not blaming Lily; this is about Snape's choices and the reasons he took them IMO)

His brilliance in creating new spells and making perfect potions and his fascination for the dark arts probably attracted those wannabe DEs to Snape and he must have initially acknowledged them because he could not afford to antagonise them.

Slowly, I think as other influences which could have made a difference diminished, and then vanished, Snape gradually shifted towards these people. Without a stable home, without good friends and without concerned adults/teachers, Snape did the inevitable.

And once he joined really, he could not sign out. Even when he came to Dumbledore on the hill, I don't think he thought Dumbledore would give him an opportunity to work away his guilt. He came to give information and walk away, probably back to Voldemort and who knows he may have even participated in DE activities for some time, before he gathered the resolve to fight back.

But Dumbledore gave him an out, which he took and then he never looked back except in remorse and regret.

But the choice he took to join Voldemort, was IMO a choice he walked into because he had nothing else to choose at that point in his life.

Despite all this, yes, I agree Snape made the wrong choice, but I think it was a pretty helpless one IMO.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Hermione does have a depth of understanding about all the subjects she takes, and can function without the special recipes.

Yes, she can produce acceptable but unremarkable NEWT level potions in Slughorn's class, without The Prince's book. In courses taught by Snape, she was outstanding, always producing perfect potions (at least, if Harry is to be believed). To me, these facts lead to the opposite of your conclusion - namely, that the Potoins instructions by Snape were what enabled Hermione's earlier briliiance in the class.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

But the choice he took to join Voldemort, was IMO a choice he walked into because he had nothing else to choose at that point in his life.

Despite all this, yes, I agree Snape made the wrong choice, but I think it was a pretty helpless one IMO.

No, I can't agree with that. I do agree that he made a series of choices that lead him there, and there were many points where he could have taken a branch in another direction. But I'm not sure I follow what you are saying, because it seems to be the same thing as choosing. Snape seems to have made a series of choices that lead to him becoming a Death Eater. I can't see that he had nothing else to choose. Perhaps you could explain that part, because I think I must be missing part of what you are saying?

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Yes, she can produce acceptable but unremarkable NEWT level potions in Slughorn's class, without The Prince's book. In courses taught by Snape, she was outstanding, always producing perfect potions (at least, if Harry is to be believed). To me, these facts lead to the opposite of your conclusion - namely, that the Potoins instructions by Snape were what enabled Hermione's earlier briliiance in the class.

Snape's recipes were superior to the originals, in my view. But I don't see what that has to do with Hermione's ability in Potions. She understands Potions and can function well in the subject even without a cheat sheet. Harry could not. So the superior recipes allow those that have them to make better potions, but don't lead to any better understanding of the subject of potions. A good teacher would be needed for that, or a mind that can grasp things in a book without outside instruction. That's my view of it, anyway.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by wwb

I respect your view, but we are speaking at cross purposes. . I was speaking only of academics.

Fair enough but I can't say that I see academic achievement as the only measure of someone's intelligence. And as it was Snape's intelligence that we are discussing I personally do not see why the discussion should be limited to his academic achievments and abilities.

Ah, I just meant on a personal level, not their ideological stance. On a personal level, I felt Snape looked for that issue that would hit a child the hardest and then rubbed salt in the wound. This is something Bella, Lucius and Voldemort did, imo. That is not to say others in the series on the good side might not do it now and again, but I felt that the DEs and Snape practiced this personal behavior on a regular basis. I was not comparing bullying with fanatical murdering - I agree that there is a huge distinction there . I was merely speaking in terms of their adult negative behavior on a personal level. I felt it was a bullying method that Snape picked up as a DE and never unlearned.

Well I don't think we are ever shown a scene in which Voldemort uses snarky set downs. He was more into "I'm the greatest - Avada Kedava" - Nor do we see Bella or Lucius use the type of sarcasm that Snape uses to such great effect. So I completely disagree that this is somehting he learnt from death eaters. DEs were not known for exchanging sarcastic witticisms with their victims. I also think that Snape learnt how to be a bully from those who bullied him - namely his father and then the marauders. Voldemort isn't so much a bully as a psycopathic maniac - I think there is quite a difference between the two. As for the sarcasm - well I think that is all Snape's own

Originally Posted by SIP

The lesson of forgiveness in the books is all about second chances no matter what someone has done in the past. So to my mind, the message is that everyone who understands the truth about evil and gives it up is redeemed.

Great point!

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Snape's recipes were superior to the originals, in my view. But I don't see what that has to do with Hermione's ability in Potions. She understands Potions and can function well in the subject even without a cheat sheet. Harry could not. So the superior recipes allow those that have them to make better potions, but don't lead to any better understanding of the subject of potions. A good teacher would be needed for that, or a mind that can grasp things in a book without outside instruction. That's my view of it, anyway.

The point is that when Snape was teaching potions they all had the cheat sheet because Snape wrote his instructions on the blackboard rather than telling the students to use a recipe in a book. This implies that Snape has improved the recipe and is using his own version to teach in potions class rather than one in a book. When Slughorn teaches he tells the students to prepare the potions according to the instructions in the book. At this point Harry is the only student to have Snape's new improved recipe, and so he gets better results than Hermione. Previously though Hermione had been using Snape's recipes - as had all the students - and using Snape's recipes always produced perfect potions. Without Snape's improved recipes Hermione does not perform as well in potions. Therefore at least some of Hermione's ability in potions must be due to the recipes that Snape had the class use, because once she does not have Snape's recipe she does not do as well as someone who is using Snape's recipe.

[Sev_The_Hero]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I meant something entirely different. Sometimes the choices we make are not really choices at all was what I meant. Those actions may be right, wrong or inconsequential; still some people choose because they really had no other choice or because they had nothing or no one to choose for IMO.

Why did Snape choose to become a DE? Did he really want the power and glory or did he want to kill muggleborns and muggles or was he attracted by Voldemort's ideology?

I don't think it was any of these three specific reasons. What I feel happened was that Snape moved gradually towards those who were wannabe DEs from the time Lily started moving away from him. (Please note I am not blaming Lily; this is about Snape's choices and the reasons he took them IMO)

I would also add that he may have not even chosen to be a D.E., but that because he was hanging around these people who would go on to become D.Es later on, it was just the natural progression. Some of the D.E.s that were the first belonged to the group that Tom Riddle hung around with. The ones who were just looking for a leader. Sev seemed to me to need some sort of acceptance, and recieved it from the group that became D.E.s Much like Malfoy, who was a prefect. I woul also say that Lily, being popular, probably didn't hang around Sev very much anyway.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

The point is that when Snape was teaching potions they all had the cheat sheet because Snape wrote his instructions on the blackboard rather than telling the students to use a recipe in a book. This implies that Snape has improved the recipe and is using his own version to teach in potions class rather than one in a book. When Slughorn teaches he tells the students to prepare the potions according to the instructions in the book. At this point Harry is the only student to have Snape's new improved recipe, and so he gets better results than Hermione. Previously though Hermione had been using Snape's recipes - as had all the students - and using Snape's recipes always produced perfect potions. Without Snape's improved recipes Hermione does not perform as well in potions. Therefore at least some of Hermione's ability in potions must be due to the recipes that Snape had the class use, because once she does not have Snape's recipe she does not do as well as someone who is using Snape's recipe.

I do understand that when everyone copies Snape's directions they get superior results because of his recipe improvements. I agree to that part. However, I don't agree that Harry is better at potions than Hermione when he uses the Prince's recipes and she does not. He produces the better potion, but doesn't become better at Potions. I think it is just a difference in how we look at learning.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

Well I don't think we are ever shown a scene in which Voldemort uses snarky set downs. He was more into "I'm the greatest - Avada Kedava" - Nor do we see Bella or Lucius use the type of sarcasm that Snape uses to such great effect. So I completely disagree that this is somehting he learnt from death eaters. DEs were not known for exchanging sarcastic witticisms with their victims. I also think that Snape learnt how to be a bully from those who bullied him - namely his father and then the marauders. Voldemort isn't so much a bully as a psycopathic maniac - I think there is quite a difference between the two. As for the sarcasm - well I think that is all Snape's own :relax.

Well in my opinion, Snape continued to enjoy the suffering of others, even after leaving the Death Eaters - that is what I meant by carrying the habit with him. Snape used psychological methods to invoke pain, imo, not just nifty sarcasm. I felt the other DEs I spoke of were also shown to use this method. For example, with Sirius and Harry, Tonks, Neville, and Hermione:

"I think you were better off with the old one," said Snape, the malice in his voice unmistakeable. "The new one looks weak." (To Tonks)

"How touching," Snape sneered. "But surely you have noticed that Potter is very like his father?"
"Yes, I have," said Sirius proudly.
"Well then, you'll know he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him," Snape said sleekly. (To Sirius/Harry)

"Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly."
Snape moved away, leaving Neville breathless with fear.
"Help me!" he moaned to Hermione. (to Neville)

Hermione's teeth reached past her shoulders, "I see no difference" (To Hermione who runs out crying)

"Like father like son, Potter. I have just saved your neck, you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black -" To Harry in POA.


Bella enjoyed making other's suffer in the same way, using the knife twisting method by using the loved one's of others to make her jabs.

"You need more persuasion?" she said, her chest rising and falling rapidly. "Very well-- take the smallest one," she ordered the Death Eaters beside her. "Let him watch while we torture the little girl. I'll do it."

"Aaaaaah... did you love him, little baby Potter?"

"What will happen to your children when I've killed you?" taunted Bellatrix, mad as her master, capering as Molly's curses danced around her. "When Mummy's gone the same way as Freddie?"

"Longbottom?" repeated Bellatrix, and a truly evil smile lit her gaunt face. "Why, I have had the pleasure of meeting your parents, boy."

Voldemort did often speak of his own greatness, I agree, but using those one loved against them was also his mantra, and to me, the Death Eater way - like making the vision of Sirius appear in Harry's head, using love against him and deriding Dumbledore in OOTP using Harry against him similarly. And recall his taunting of Harry in DH:

"Dumbledore's favorote solution, love, which he claimed conquerd death, though love did not stop him from falling from the tower and breaking like an old waxwork? Love, which did not prevent me stamping out your Mudblood mother like a cockroach, Potter - and nobody seems to love you enough to run forward this time and take my curse..."

And Voldy called up the memory of Harry's dad dying at his hands in GoF, the same way, telling Harry to stand up like a man, straight and proud and die as his father had.

And Lucius also shoved Harry's parents in his face, declaring Harry was as meddlesome as they were and would end up dead like them, in CoS.

In my opinion, it was a common DE practice to get to the heart of the matter in terms of others, using their loved ones, or people/things they treasured against them to torture and taunt them for the purpose of mentally terrorizing them and making them suffer - twisting the knife in the would, imo. And while Snape left the DEs, he appeared to keep up that same type of behavior with others, imo.

[Labrynth]

I always end up pages behind. I'd scream for mercy but I don't think it'd help

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

Quote from HBP: "Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts," said Lupin reminiscently. "There were a few months in my fifth year when you couldn't move for being hoisted into the air by your ankle."

That's OWLs, folks. And that's peers finding something unusual/fascinating enough to mimic.

I agree. It was good enough for all his classmates to use and find amusing.

Originally Posted by Annie logic

But who is to say what is needed. Inventors have been shown time again to have been inventing beyond the time period/life style they were in. The first people who designed and tried to get man flying using a machine had no specific/pressing 'need' at that moment in time, yet now, people are highly dependant on this mode of transport. Things that are invented are not always 'needed' at the time, but their advantage and use become apparent later.

Well said!

Originally Posted by WWB

Right, but my point was, if that was truly his issue with Hermione, he would not have spent 6.5 years merely ignoring her raised hand, being dismissive of her answers, and ignoring her work product, imo. If she was mimicking the book all of that time (which I do not know from the canon), and his antics were not working, why didn't he change up? Did he relish the frustration?

Because Snape didn't know any better. I find it pretty easy to believe that Snape probably never received any real encouragement. We've seen it highly unlikely that he got it at home, especially from his father. When he hits Hogwarts he's already the type to shy away from attention. Which can go one of two ways... either he's not as academically gifted as WWB thinks, in which case he probably falls in the midline and thus slides thru the cracks. If that's the case then he's not bad enough to get special attention and he's not good enough for it either. Couple that with his nature to shy away from seeking help or attention and he's not likely to get much from teachers or even his housemates. Or, if he IS in the top of his class, as I personally believe, and he's succeeding well, then there are other students who need the encouragement more than he does. At least on the surface. And again, coupled with his tendency to keep to himself and not engage people, he is like to be the "really smart, but very shy and quiet kid" in a teacher's class. Either way, he's screwed.

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

Snape is, in general, a very nonindulgent person... and not exactly a social butterfly. I'm more inclined to consider that the real reason behind his lack of sympathy for the students.

I agree. And I'd go further to say it's because of how he was treated growing up. I imagine he always had a rather no nonsense feel about him, but added to his childhood and I don't see him ever being the touchy feeling, "You know you can do better" type. Even if he and Lily had remained friends I don't think she could have changed him enough for that. Of course that's speculation on my part.

Originally Posted by WWB

Well I give him props for that, but to me it shows he was industrious. It doesn't take genius to try stirring something a different way or chopping roots in a different fashion, imo. It is more industrious to try creative means through trial and error (which his scratches through trials show, imo). I am not saying Snape was unintelligent. I think he had some smarts, but I feel that he was willing to work at that which interested him at 16 or 17 when he made his changes in his book.

More than half the drugs on the market these days are based on drugs already created. If someone hadn't gone thru the trouble of stirring something a different way, or adding just a bit more of ingredient X, we wouldn't have improved treatments for almost any disease under the sun from asthma, to cancer, to high blood pressure, etc. So I guess those people are just "Industrious."

I'll agree with you that he worked on what interested hi, but I'll wager a guess that anything that could help him get to where he wanted, or what he wanted (Power in his case) was something he was interested in. That being the case I don't see him blowing off much in the way of what was being taught. Knowledge is power and has been since the dawn of time.

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think that the improvements that Snape made on the potions showed he had tremendous potential that he squandered. He had the talent to pursue a worthwhile career if he chose to, but instead it was his Levicorpus jinx that ended up being his claim to fame as his Death Eater buddies borrowed it to torture Muggles . Snape had a choice in paths, and went with the one that looked like easy glory and fame, but ended up being the long torturous route back to reality.

He had the chance when he was young to lead a worthwhile and rewarding life, but threw it away.

Oh he had tremendous potential IMO. And yup, he blew it. In a lot of ways.

But I don't think we can ignore how he ended up they way, or where, he ended up.

Originally Posted by z

As an adult, Snape the teacher can tell at a glance precisely what a student has done wrong in making a potion, based on the color and consistency it has achieved. Either this means he has tried every possible variation of stirring, chopping, and wrong amounts/wrong kinds of ingredients to see what happens, AND remembered every last one of them, in itself a prodigious feat of memory. Or, which I consider more likely, he has some other grounds to make this determination - that he understands the ways ingredients and potion-making steps work together, so he knows what is going on even when his students exhibit previously undiscovered ways of messing up. In this latter case, his "trial and error" would be an application of what we Muggles call "the scientific method".

Exactly.

Originally Posted by kittling

I really do wonder about how much chance he actually had to 'go his own way'/take a route other than the DE route and still follow his ambition?

To me its not about talent - I don't see him lacking the talent to make something of himself, its about his background.

The UK is a country that is both rather class bound, especially when Severus was young, and generally able to acknowledge this fact about itself. It seems fitting to views JKR has expressed about social injustice. {...}

I agree. I think a lot of factors piled up against Snape, and he didn't have something that would allow him to over come it. Be it guts, strength, friends, whatever, I think it got the better of him.

I would also wonder what kind of childhood his father had. Was the elder Snape repeating a cycle as we see so often these days?

Originally Posted by WWB

I understand what you are saying about the social conditions - but in the end, it does devolve into a choice between good and evil, imo.

IMO there are VERY few things in life that are as cut and dried as good and evil. *shrug*

Originally Posted by WWB

In my view, this was a poor choice of spell to use in an effort to ward off the Death Eater - it is very powerful and causes grave damage. In flight, in the midst of battle, one cannot possibly know what might happen - he could have hit someone in the heart and killed them - perhaps even Harry, imo. So I feel it speaks to a general character flaw. His intent was fine, but his choice of spell says to me that his thinking was still not up to speed with his attempt to eschew evil for good.

You make a valid point, however if Snape is KNOWN for this spell, if it is his specialty as Lupin states, it would look awful strange if he didn't use it while persuing TBWL.

And since there were several post RE: choices I'm not going to quote them all.

I'm going to say that while, technically, we are always presented with choices, I'm going to have to agree that even if you have those choices, they're really not always a choice at all. I guess you could say that you could chose to die instead of doing _____, but I"m not sure that's terribly realistic either. We are all ingrained with a sense of self preservation, and it's awful hard to overcome. So, IMO, the fact that Snape went against that sense of self preservation, to go to Dumbledore in an effort to save Lily's life says a lot about him. His choices sucked monkey parts. Let his only friend die, trust Voldemort to save her, or go to someone who has a good chance of killing you to ask for help. Not really odds I'd want to play personally.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

I'll agree with you that he worked on what interested hi, but I'll wager a guess that anything that could help him get to where he wanted, or what he wanted (Power in his case) was something he was interested in. That being the case I don't see him blowing off much in the way of what was being taught. Knowledge is power and has been since the dawn of time.

I would add, that I don't the the relevance of this in assessing Snape's intelligence. He did well at Potions, making innovations and improvements while still in school. In what way does the apparent fact that he loves the subject, detract from that accomplishment? I have had the opportunity in my life to meet some very, very bright people and one thing they all had in common is that they loved what they did.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Labrynth

Because Snape didn't know any better. I find it pretty easy to believe that Snape probably never received any real encouragement. We've seen it highly unlikely that he got it at home, especially from his father. When he hits Hogwarts he's already the type to shy away from attention. Which can go one of two ways... either he's not as academically gifted as WWB thinks, in which case he probably falls in the midline and thus slides thru the cracks. If that's the case then he's not bad enough to get special attention and he's not good enough for it either. Couple that with his nature to shy away from seeking help or attention and he's not likely to get much from teachers or even his housemates. Or, if he IS in the top of his class, as I personally believe, and he's succeeding well, then there are other students who need the encouragement more than he does. At least on the surface. And again, coupled with his tendency to keep to himself and not engage people, he is like to be the "really smart, but very shy and quiet kid" in a teacher's class. Either way, he's screwed.

I am happy to agree to disagree on this issue. I just personally do not believe that Snape is an unnamed child prodigy of the series - who was never mentioned in canon by anyone as such, although it was something that was done for other characters (Voldemort, Dumbledore, James, Sirius, Hermione, etc.) That is just my opinion, but I respect the fact that others might wish to interpret things distinctly.

My only purpose in discussing it was to explain why I felt that some jealousy might underlie Snape's behavior toward Hermione. I still believe that as nothing said to this point has convinced me otherwise. But again, that is just my take on the canon.

More than half the drugs on the market these days are based on drugs already created. If someone hadn't gone thru the trouble of stirring something a different way, or adding just a bit more of ingredient X, we wouldn't have improved treatments for almost any disease under the sun from asthma, to cancer, to high blood pressure, etc. So I guess those people are just "Industrious."

Well I have agreed that he made changes to the methodology - and I would even agree that he passed it on to his students by writing on the board. However, the twins did that also - they went futher, not just improving on methods, but inventing new things and selling them at the time they made them right in school - so I was mistaken before, they began their enterprise immediately. But Snape was not enterprising in that way at all as a child, he kept his discoveries to himself, as far as canon indicates, imo. And his improvements show creativity and industriousness, admittedly. However, I will not leap from there to the conclusion that he was a good student - just like I couldn't do so for the twins. With the twins, we know they were not good students - so I fail to see why this would not apply to Snape. That is why I spoke of his narrow focus - doing that which he enjoyed, because that was like the twins.

My entire focus is on academics in general, not just one or two areas of magic. That is because, again, my point was to show why I felt Snape was envious of Hermione. She was not focused on one subject to the neglect of others. She was brilliant in all of them as was indicated by her grades and the way others spoke about her and the fact that she was given privledges in school other students were not granted (time turner). I feel Snape was quite envious of this as he would have liked to earn that regard as a student himself. That is how I see it. Snape was not likewise envious of the twins, imo, because their antics were not recognized as brilliant among professors - the pranks were useless and something to give them detention for, imo. Only their "enterprise" aspect showed signs of brilliance attached and only after they became adults and were able to translate that talent into a genuine business would it be recognized as something of value, by adults, imo. Snape was not enterprising when young, imo, he did show the same signs of creativeness as the twins though and a deep interest in potions and dark arts - so I feel that his work was great, and that he went on to be more enterprising with it as an adult is good too (although he didn't pursue that, he pursued the use of his, imo, useless dark arts talent instead, and was rather talked into pursuing his other talent by Dumbledore through the teaching job he rather hated - but still he did use it there). But as a child, there is nothing there for me to hang the hat of exceptionally bright, or cleverest of all, or best in his year upon. That is my view.

IMO there are VERY few things in life that are as cut and dried as good and evil. *shrug*

Well I can put it a different way: to join Voldemort or not to join. That is what I was speaking of.

I'm going to say that while, technically, we are always presented with choices, I'm going to have to agree that even if you have those choices, they're really not always a choice at all. I guess you could say that you could chose to die instead of doing _____, but I"m not sure that's terribly realistic either. We are all ingrained with a sense of self preservation, and it's awful hard to overcome. So, IMO, the fact that Snape went against that sense of self preservation, to go to Dumbledore in an effort to save Lily's life says a lot about him. His choices sucked monkey parts. Let his only friend die, trust Voldemort to save her, or go to someone who has a good chance of killing you to ask for help. Not really odds I'd want to play personally.

In my opinion, "Choice" and "the power of choice" was a huge theme in the series. Thus, I feel JKR wrote with an eye to ensuring that when it came to "good and evil", all of her characters had choices. (And I mean fundamentally, not of course an imperiused person, etc. ). This was shown with Snape, imo, and it was shown with Draco as well. Both had tough choices to make, Snape chose to head down the dark path, despite a huge "moment of truth" he had to face (ending his friendship with Lily, who I feel he had a crush on at the time). And he became a loyal, hard working DE, imo. Draco, took the initial step, planning to ensure his parents safety, but he couldn't hack being a loyal DE, and he failed to keep going in his "moment of truth" - he couldn't kill Dumbledore, he couldn't rat out the trio definitively, he couldn't let his friends torture Harry, he simply "chose" distinctly at points that Snape did not - so he suffered less as a result, imo.

I don't feel that Snape was powerless to choose evil and I don't feel he was powerless to choose good. In the face of both choices, motivations, influences, threats, pleading and his background aside, he made the wrong choice and then went on to make the right one - and in both instances, in my opinion, he could have chosen to do the opposite.

Well kudos for Snape for making the right choice second - unlike Peter who made the wrong choice second. He got to suffer even more than Snape for his horrible choice that came second, imo. But to me, it came down to good versus evil - and it came down to making that choice of one's own free will in all cases. And I feel Snape had that free will to choose to follow Voldemort, just as he did to choose to stop following him.

And again, when I say "good versus evil" I am speaking specifically and only of Voldemort's evil v. the good side here. The ideological choice presented in the series of being on one side or the other. To me, that was JKR's only concern. It was not my only concern, but she didn't write her books specifically for me. .

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I would add, that I don't the the relevance of this in assessing Snape's intelligence. He did well at Potions, making innovations and improvements while still in school. In what way does the apparent fact that he loves the subject, detract from that accomplishment? I have had the opportunity in my life to meet some very, very bright people and one thing they all had in common is that they loved what they did.

Excellent point - people are always being told that their future happiness depends on finding out what they do best. Isn't that the lesson of Neville Longbottom and his love of plants?

The fact that plants have existed for thousands of years doesn't mean he can't make new discoveries. That's the way science always works - people build on the work of others.

It's like Dumbledore and those "12 uses of Dragon's Blood" that are mentioned on his Chocolate Frog Card. He didn't invent dragons or blood, but he found out new things about them and I presume he had a good time doing it or why bother? That's seen by the Wizarding World as one of his crowning achievements, too.

[Green_Arrow]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Despite all this, yes, I agree Snape made the wrong choice, but I think it was a pretty helpless one IMO.

Imo, I feel as though it was a series of wrong choices that had got him into that situation.

A point I'd like to discuss is if Lilly tried her best to discourage him from that path would she have succeeded to keep him away from the DEs?

We know they were really good friends at one time, but if she reciprocated his love, do you think he would have given up Voldermort path for her?

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Green_Arrow

A point I'd like to discuss is if Lilly tried her best to discourage him from that path would she have succeeded to keep him away from the DEs?

I don't know if Lily tried her best; but seeing the influence Lily had over Snape, I think if she had been determined to help Snape, she could have very well stopped him from becoming a DE.

But did she care enough to do that and was she interested enough to do that?

Sometimes I feel she did not, and so she was not the best friend like James was for example to Sirius. I do think she loved Snape, but she did not love him enough; seeing that he desperately needed help, she was unwilling to provide it.

We know they were really good friends at one time, but if she reciprocated his love, do you think he would have given up Voldemort path for her?

I don't think Lily loved Snape romantically. But I think her continued friendship itself might have made a difference.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't know if Lily tried her best; but seeing the influence Lily had over Snape, I think if she had been determined to help Snape, she could have very well stopped him from becoming a DE.

But did she care enough to do that and was she interested enough to do that?

Sometimes I feel she did not, and so she was not the best friend like James was for example to Sirius. I do think she loved Snape, but she did not love him enough; seeing that he desperately needed help, she was unwilling to provide it.

I think Snape had enough character to help himself, if he wanted to. I feel that he had truly made up his mind to be a DE, just like his friends Avery and Mulciber, Lucius - and like Bella, Rockwell, Goyle, etc. Snape, like the others, truly believed that it was a road to power - but more than that, I feel it was a road that championed Snape's interest in the dark arts, that championed his dislike for Muggles and a road that was buffered by security. I believe Snape honestly felt as strongly about joining up as others in the story felt about joining the Order. So to me, it was not a matter of a wishy washy Snape who would change his mind simply because Lily hung around begging him to do so. She ended her friendship with him and that momentous event didn't pull him off the road. To me, I think back when Snape was 16-17, he was simply decided upon his course and there was no stopping him.

[Green_Arrow]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I believe Snape honestly felt as strongly about joining up as others in the story felt about joining the Order. So to me, it was not a matter of a wishy washy Snape who would change his mind simply because Lily hung around begging him to do so.

But Snape did do a 'wishy washy', eventually, when finding out that Lily's life was on the line. It made him turn to Dumbledore for help.
To me that is proof that if she had poured her heart into requesting not to join the DE's (and made him see reason) he would not have joined.

[SusanBones]

We have a thread dedicated to the discussion of Snape and Lily:

Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by Green_Arrow

But Snape did do a 'wishy washy', eventually, when finding out that Lily's life was on the line. It made him turn to Dumbledore for help.
To me that is proof that if she had poured her heart into requesting not to join the DE's (and made him see reason) he would not have joined.

Snape only did a wishy-washy on getting Lily murdered, which isn't the same thing as renouncing his belief in the Death Eater agenda. In my opinion Lily made clear when she broke off their friendship that she wasn't satisfied with being the exception to the bigots' rule. If Snape wasn't interested enough in her wellbeing back then, I don't see anything else she could have said or done, within reason. She also announced her intentions to fight against Voldemort. I figured that she found this much more important in the grand scheme of things, rather than continuing to set aside her convictions and making it her life's work to trail around after Snape trying to convince him of things he had no interest in listening to. Lily chose to lead by example instead, and Snape could follow her or not at that point, and he chose not to.

In my opinion, no person can talk someone into changing when they won't even listen, and they don't want to change.

Edit:

Originally Posted by SusanBones

We have a thread dedicated to the discussion of Snape and Lily:

Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3.

Oops! I thought I was in that thread, Sorry!

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by wwb

In my opinion, it was a common DE practice to get to the heart of the matter in terms of others, using their loved ones, or people/things they treasured against them to torture and taunt them for the purpose of mentally terrorizing them and making them suffer - twisting the knife in the would, imo. And while Snape left the DEs, he appeared to keep up that same type of behavior with others, imo.

I am sorry but I do not see any similarity at all between the quotes you provided of Snape and those of Bella and Voldemort. Snape is funny - the other two are not. I also happen to know a lot of people who make sarcastic remarks a la Snape and I think I can be pretty sure that they have never been members of a racist, murderous sect. I really don't see the connection between having a sarcastic sense of humour and being a Death Eater. Take for example Snape's reply to Dumbledore's request to kill him:

"Do you want me to do it now or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph"

Classic Snape!

Originally Posted by wwb

My entire focus is on academics in general, not just one or two areas of magic. That is because, again, my point was to show why I felt Snape was envious of Hermione.

You may focus on academics to make your point - I however am not and will never be convinced that Snape was envious of Hermione, and will cite Snape's other talents to show that I do not beleive that he was that impressed with academic achievement. I would also add that I know a lot of teachers and the idea of them being envious of an 11 year old student however talented is laughable.

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

In my opinion, no person can talk someone into changing when they won't even listen, and they don't want to change.

I agree with this. I can't blame anyone but Snape for his choice to join the Death Eaters.

What I find sad is that he paid very dearly for his mistakes - far more dearly than other characters did for their mistakes. For example - Black tells Snape how to get into the willow knowing Snape will go into the tunnel and will face a werewolf - yet luckily nobody was hurt. Lupin forgets to take his potion on the night of the full moon and ends up transforming in front of three students an unconscious teacher and an escaped convict - but again purely by luck nobody is hurt. Severus however does make a big mistake in joining the Death Eaters and another when he passes on the prophecy. He does try very hard to put this right and only fails because of a traitor. It just seems that when others make mistakes there are other characters to help put things right but when Snape makes a mistake the other characters work against his efforts to put it right.

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well I can put it a different way: to join Voldemort or not to join. That is what I was speaking of.

Actually a more accurate statement would be "Join Voldemort or die." As we see someone (I forget who) state that their own father was killed by the DE after he refused to join them.

I had always taken this to mean that once Snape was ensconced with the wanna-be Death Eaters he had no choice but to join or die and surely talking about the issue or going into hiding was not an option. This does not belittle Snape's own responsibility in saddling up with the DE in the first place, of course, but it adds a more layered understanding of what he might have been thinking about before or after Lily had called him out about his "friends."

If Snape had any ideas or doubts about this gang - he wouldn't have had any safety net to jump into anyway. Lily had rejected him completely by his Senior year and I highly doubt he had any other social connections aside from the DE.

If we want people to have the choice between "good" and "evil" as it were, we must be prepared to support them in that path towards the light- not just judge them and cast them out to fend for themselves. I think this in regards to Barty Crouch's first imprisonment and how his own Father- for the sake of public appearances- would not even provide his own son with a fair trial- let alone any sympathy or attempt to understand what had made him get involved with the DEs.

[kittling]

Originally Posted by Bscorp

If we want people to have the choice between "good" and "evil" as it were, we must be prepared to support them in that path towards the light - not just judge them and cast them out to fend for themselves.

I can't say how much I agree with this.