Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

I get what you're saying, but realistically "knowledge" is not simple awareness but it is a learned thing that is retained in your memory center.

Yes. My usage of the term memory isn't supposed to describe anything like the same thing as computer memory. I don't mean memory as in purely storage for information. I'm pretty sure you understood that, but thought I'd clear it up.

Okay, so I guess I could agree with you on this point, however the caveat would be that a truly powerful Legilimens would be able to obtain "knowledge" while someone with less experience would not. We know that Voldemort could tell when someone was lying to him. "Tell the truth" and he'd use Legilimency to get the knowledge of truth/lie...not only that, but he even brags to have looked through "worthless mind" for the knowledge he sought.

Exactly what I was thinking at one point, that a truly great legilimens could see into a person's knowledge, but I'm not sure if I agree with this. Surely Voldemort was able to deduce lie or truth from seeing through a person's memories.

Well, if you organize your thoughts, it makes it easier to think things through. In essence, easing the mind.

But how is creating and removing more copies of your memories organizing your thoughts? You would still have memories and thoughts ripping around your head in the same way they would have been. I think I know what you are talking about but am not fully convinced that this would make things easier.

[willfitz]

So, I have come across a few passages of the books that I think will add to this discussion:

1. This is pretty unimpressive, and I think that most of us knew this anyway, but Harry wanders over to the pensieve in Snape's office during Occlumency lessons and thinks to himself something like "here are the memories that Snape doesn't want me to see." So evidently, to remove a memory from one's head is to remove it from danger of being seen by others. The question is, does this remove it from being seen by yourself?

2. Also in Occlumency lessons, we get a description of the memories which flash through Harry's mind as Snape breaks in. The passage goes something like, "Dudley was riding his first bike, and Harry was burning with jealousy." This means that the memories seen by legilimency and the memories in a pensieve are two different things. Or at least, the memories change form upon leaving the head. The memories as Snape was watching them appear to be from Harry's point of view, not a third-person point of view, and have feelings and emotions attached.

3. Perhaps the most relevant one. When Dumbledore first shows Harry the tampered memory from Slughorn, he says something like "as you can probably see, its been tampered with, and as you can see, it was poorly done. Luckily for us, this means that the true memory still exist (or can still be retrieved or something.)" This could have a few interpretations, like that he is making it seem remarkable that the true memory still exists after the false one which contained parts of the true one was removed. It could also simply mean that it was remarkable that the true one still exists after he tried to replace it with the fake one.

Anyway, I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Sorry about the very rough quotes, I don't have the books with me. Perhaps someone could help me and post the official quotations.

[birdi86]

I think it makes the memory more distant and possibly, through not viewing it, you can forget it. I don't think it's instantaneous. Memory works in strange and labrynth ways. I'm not even convinced Oblivate or memory charms can completely erase certain memories.

Though I think if you put the memory into a pensieve and view it, you'll remember it again.

The memories as Snape was watching them appear to be from Harry's point of view, not a third-person point of view, and have feelings and emotions attached.

That's probably part of being inside someone's head. As Snape points out Legilimency is not mind-reading per se, it's more latching onto emotions and thoughts and going from there. Though I'll have to re-read the part where Harry uses Protego and accidentally performs Legilimency on Snape to get an idea of how that works.

[Snape_Fan]

i dont think you forget the memories that you put into a pensieve or into a bottle as dumbledore had done in OOtP.

one question i had about memories was how did slughorn go about altering his memory; but then still being able to remember the true memory that harry eventually extracts. bc when dumbledore talks to harry about the memory after they watch it (the modified one) in the pensive, he says even slughorn has convinced himself he didnt know answers to tom riddles questions.
so i guess im wondering, was that just an assumption, or an overstatement or w/e (did dumbledore mean that the memory was just "packed away") or can you alter the memory to the point that you cant remember the original memory

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

The problem I have with the idea of the memory being removed in its entirety is that IMO entirety means just that. Completely. Yet we know this isn't true, based on canon.

Even if you say an imprint of a memory is somehow retained in order for the person to recall what's there, you're still acknowledging a form of a "copy" is made.

We see Dumbledore clearly swirling thoughts. We hear him clearly, lucidly, concisely discuss the memories that we see are still contained in the Pensieve {Goblet of Fire/Pensieve}.

Harry asks about the Longbottoms. About Barty Jr's involvement. About Mr. Bagman's possible connection to Dark activity. And Snape. We clearly see the memories swirling about contained in the Pensieve, yet Dumbledore just as clearly "remembers" them, even when they're not contained between his ears.

*shrugs* Which goes back to my idea of "copies" being made and used.

I agree. We see that with Dumbledore in GOF as well as in HBP in regards to his own memories. The memories are in the pensieve, but he has no trouble remembering what they are and explaining them to Harry. They are not gone from his head.

This is what Jo tells us about the pensieve -

Mugglenet/TLC interview, 7/16/2005 MA: So there are things in there that you haven't noticed personally, but you can go and see yourself? JKR: Yes, and that's the magic of the Pensieve, that's what brings it alive. ES: I want one of those! JKR: Yeah. Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn’t it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It’s somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere.

Basically, using the pensieve is like watching a video tape of that moment. The magic involved recreates that moment exactly as it was without effecting your own memory of the event. You can go in and look at it with objectivity - see things that you might have overlooked at the time.

I can see where Dumbledore would find that useful to organize his thoughts. Being able to view the event as a spectator would allow for greater objectivity and you are more likely to catch things you missed at the time it was happening.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Well, maybe with Snape pulling out his memories, since he was a very accomplished Occlumens, he could've sort of "deleted" a memory temporarily and kept a copy in the Pensieve to retrieve later?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I agree. We see that with Dumbledore in GOF as well as in HBP in regards to his own memories. The memories are in the pensieve, but he has no trouble remembering what they are and explaining them to Harry. They are not gone from his head.

Basically, using the pensieve is like watching a video tape of that moment. The magic involved recreates that moment exactly as it was without effecting your own memory of the event. You can go in and look at it with objectivity - see things that you might have overlooked at the time.

My problem with it not affecting your own memory of the event is that such a fact would make Snape removing his memories prior to Occlumency lessons completely pointless. Some change must occur inside one's mind in order to make this necessary.

I agree that the memory cannot be forgotten. My sense is that it is something like if you wanted to read someone a Harry Potter book, but did not have the book on you at the time. You know basically what is contained in the book, but you cannot see it, and cannot relate it to others very well at all. If you were to take the memory back into your head, it would be like retrieving the book.

[SevrusSnape]

I think you definitely remember the memory still just because in HBP when Dumbledore asks Harry to see his memory of his first visit with Riddle he says to Harry what it is and wants him to see it. Also Slughorn gives his memory to Harry and still says hes ashamed of it, and if he was that ashamed of it and could get rid of it completely I'm sure he would have

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by SevrusSnape

I think you definitely remember the memory still just because in HBP when Dumbledore asks Harry to see his memory of his first visit with Riddle he says to Harry what it is and wants him to see it. Also Slughorn gives his memory to Harry and still says hes ashamed of it, and if he was that ashamed of it and could get rid of it completely I'm sure he would have

Well, like I was saying, there is a possibility that you could lose the memory, but retain what it was about, so Dumbledore would know that the memory was that of his first meeting with Riddle, but could only experience it again by entering the pensieve or putting it back in his head.

There is something in your point about Slughorn though.

I still can't see how Snape putting his memories in the pensieve before Occlumency would have a point if the memory was still exactly as it was beforehand, just as readable as ever.

[TheGreen1]

You know, I agree with some of the people that it's more of a "Copy" of a Memory, rather than the Memory itself, which it still is.

If that sounds confusing, let me put it into perspective on how I view it.

Pretend you are a computer, and that the hard drive is your mind, and files stored on it, are memories.

Now, you copy a file over to a portable hard drive for safe keeping in-case something happens. The same thing goes with a memory into a pensive, you copy your memory (the file) and put it your pensive (your portable hard drive).

[BrianSeverus]

I've often wondered about this. Certainly I'd say that the memories have to "go away" to some degree -- otherwise what would be the point of taking them out to ease the stress, as Dumbledore mentions at one point?

However, if you completely forget them, most of HBP wouldn't work, because Dumbledore would have no idea about them once he put them into the Pensieve (and what would be the point of a Pensieve anyway, if that was the case? You really might as well just use Obliviate).

I think the most likely explanation is that the memories recede once you put them in the Pensieve, and you can forget about them -- but you retain a "shadow," as it were, of that memory, so that you can still recall what it was about and what happened in it. However, you would be forgetting all the details, which would really help if it was a troublesome memory that was causing you a lot of stress.

[JamesxProngs]

I don't think you would remember the moires that you have when they are in the pensive, that would be the whole point. Thats why when Snapes teaching Harry to use Occlumency, Snape takes memories out and puts them in the pensive so harry can't see them on the off chance that Harry could get into Snapes mind.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by JamesxProngs

I don't think you would remember the moires that you have when they are in the pensive, that would be the whole point. Thats why when Snapes teaching Harry to use Occlumency, Snape takes memories out and puts them in the pensive so harry can't see them on the off chance that Harry could get into Snapes mind.

Exactly my point. I'd say that he could still be conscious of the memories that he had removed. For example, he could think that "it's a good thing that Harry won't be able to see when the Marauders bullied me after the exam, because I can't even remember."

I think that you would be able to only think about memories objectively as such, but wouldn't be able to "see them," effectively preventing others from seeing them as well.

[ignisia]

I thought more on this when answering BurrowGhoul's question in the Little Questions thread. The question dealt with whether or not Snape used Dumbledore's pensieve to hide information from Voldemort. I thought back to the moments when we see Snape using the pensieve and realized that he must have remembered SWM despite having put it in the basin. If he hadn't, the emotional impact Harry's viewing of it had on him would have been significantly less than it was, IMO. So perhaps a person can remember a pensieved memory.

[Puppet_Master]

I think the purpose of a pensieve is to take out the memorie.
To relieve your mind.
It can be used for hidding a memorie too, nobody can find your memorie unless they get your pensieve.

But I never stopped to think deep in this point really, taking out your memories will make you to not remember it anymore unless you see your pensieve.

Oh.

[Navalina]

I think it's a very confusing issue. Like it's been pointed out here, during the Occlumency lessons Snape does put some of his memories in the Pensieve so Harry can't get to them, but he does remember them somehow, apparantly. I suppose you'll remember the gist of it and that you've put it in the Pensieve, but I doubt you could still remember everything - otherwise, what's the point?

[Meggy]

Perhaps you do actually remember the memory itself, but you don't know the specific details of it all. For example, Dumbledore Im sure will have remembered he went to inform Tom that he was a wizard at the orphanage, however the exact details (such as Tom liking to collect valuable things and the cave) may be forgotten if just left to sit in your mind, so he probably put the memory in the pensieve in order to preserve everything in it's original state, for a later time when he would need them. So yes I think they will remember the memory, just not the little details.

Ofcourse I have no evidence to back this up and it's merely guess work. But I think I've made a reasonable guess.

[Grymmditch]

Originally Posted by Tommy_Nott

I think what Dumbledore meant was this:

Once you have placed a memory into the Pensieve, you have the ability to view it in great detail any time you want. As such, you are relieved from having to make any effort to remember it anymore - thats how it's a relief to a mind "too full of memories", when you don't have to worry about forgetting it you are free to focus better on other things. It's not that it's gone from your memory.

As for why Snape pulled some memories out before Occlumency with Harry, I have no idea.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I agree. We see that with Dumbledore in GOF as well as in HBP in regards to his own memories. The memories are in the pensieve, but he has no trouble remembering what they are and explaining them to Harry. They are not gone from his head.

This is what Jo tells us about the pensieve -


Basically, using the pensieve is like watching a video tape of that moment. The magic involved recreates that moment exactly as it was without effecting your own memory of the event. You can go in and look at it with objectivity - see things that you might have overlooked at the time.

I can see where Dumbledore would find that useful to organize his thoughts. Being able to view the event as a spectator would allow for greater objectivity and you are more likely to catch things you missed at the time it was happening.

I believe these two quotes hold the key.

Firstly, it takes a load off your mind knowing that a full record of events is safely stored away and can be reviewed at any time, without fear of permanently losing and forgetting important details, since it is in fact, like a video tape.
Secondly, it follows the school of thought that your subconscious remembers everything -as often displayed in cases of hypnosis- the subject recalls things and details that he/she otherwise would not in their normal everyday conscious memory. Therefore, there are two different levels of memory to work with here. The regular memory stays with you, but the full details go into the pensieve.

Therefore, I believe memories are generally copies.. generally.
However, that doesn't' rule out the possibility that a good wizard could fully extract and remove the memory if they wanted to, such as in the case of Snape and Harry's occulomency lessons.
It doesn't have to be either/or... why can't it be both? There can be multiple layers to anything, including the magic used to manage memories.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Grymmditch

I believe these two quotes hold the key.

Firstly, it takes a load off your mind knowing that a full record of events is safely stored away and can be reviewed at any time, without fear of permanently losing and forgetting important details, since it is in fact, like a video tape.
Secondly, it follows the school of thought that your subconscious remembers everything -as often displayed in cases of hypnosis- the subject recalls things and details that he/she otherwise would not in their normal everyday conscious memory. Therefore, there are two different levels of memory to work with here. The regular memory stays with you, but the full details go into the pensieve.

Therefore, I believe memories are generally copies.. generally.
However, that doesn't' rule out the possibility that a good wizard could fully extract and remove the memory if they wanted to, such as in the case of Snape and Harry's occulomency lessons.
It doesn't have to be either/or... why can't it be both? There can be multiple layers to anything, including the magic used to manage memories.

Yeah, I think that there are certainly multiple layers to the memories when they are in your head, whereas when put in the pensieve, it is clearly not the same. I think that a while back in this thread, I distinguished them as memories vs. thoughts/emotions. A major clue that I found was during the Occlumency Lessons, when Snape breaks into Harry's mind:

"He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle, and his heart was bursting with jealousy..."

It would seem that in the mind, the memory is accompanied by various thoughts and emotions, and yet when Harry watches Dumbledore's memories removed from his mind, it is simply like being in a third person recreation. So clearly what is removed from the brain is the visual representation, about which I come to two different sub-theories: firstly, that I am inclined to believe that this visual representation is not accessible by the person while it is removed, and secondly that this is the only thing accessible by most legilimens while it is in the occlumens' mind. I don't personally believe that when Snape was breaking into Harry's mind, he felt the jealousy. I think he just simply saw Dudley riding a bike. So, remove the visual representation, and you still have the information gleaned from the memory, it is just, for the most part, safe from outside access.

On a side note, I do believe that Voldemort's incredible legilimency powers may be from being able to read both layers in a person's mind, so that even when the visual memories are gone, he can still peruse the information if their mind is sufficiently weak.

[Grymmditch]

Weeeell, that's not exactly what I meant, but I will agree on this:
Viewing something in the pensieve allows one to view it objectively, where the lack of subjectivity does not cloud one's perspective. And to do that, you have to remove associated emotions. This makes it a handy tool indeed.