Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Grymmditch

Weeeell, that's not exactly what I meant, but I will agree on this:
Viewing something in the pensieve allows one to view it objectively, where the lack of subjectivity does not cloud one's perspective. And to do that, you have to remove associated emotions. This makes it a handy tool indeed.

Well, I know it isn't exactly what you said, but I'd say that the fundamentals are the same, at least with regards to multiple layers, and naturally, I think that my theory covers all scenarios in canon.

I am not sure though, you seem to be in line with me in that some layer is removed from the mind when the memory is put in the pensieve, and yet one layer can remain.

[Jezabel]

This is a really interesting question. I'd never really thought about it in depth before but my take on the pensieve is that it's kind of like a filing cabinet of one's memories, the important ones that you will want to look back on and see very clearly, like a replay of the event. I think that once you take the memory out you'd still remember it very vaguely, like a dream that you can never seem to remember exactly what happened in. So the whole memory is gone from your mind but you still remember a small recollection of it. This would make room in your mind as Dumbledore said. But that's just my take on it.

[maddelena]

wow, a lot of great points! I got the impression that you could remove them completely ( as Snape does to block them from Harry), but that maybe if your intention is just to share, you can take a piece and retain the rest (like when Slughorn gives his memory to Harry). I think, however, that Dumbledore can remember the memories he has moved out of his brain and put in the glasses becausee because when he views those old memories in the pensieve a new memory of seeing it happen is formed--like when Harry watches the Dumbledore's memory in the pensieve, he afterward remembers the memory he saw being there, watching it but outside...I believe the same thing happens to one watching their own memory in the Pensieve...

...the more I think of this, the more dizzy I get...this is reminding me of the circular logic of the "time paradox"...

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

*shrugs* Which goes back to my idea of "copies" being made and used.

If it were copies made, then Snape would have had no need to remove certain memories before Harry's Occlumency Class and then add them back after the class was over. If those memories were only copied, those memories would still be there inside Snape and he would not need to add them back after class IMO. I think the memories once removed will fade out from the person's brain/memory, but he will know that he has removed something to do with a certain person or incident. And if he wants to investigate that incident he could go into the pensieve and see more carefully and clearly for himself. And add the memory back once he's done with it.

When he goes into the memory and sees it then he has a memory of that incident plus the original memory. Wonder what happens when the wizard adds back the memory after viewing it in a pensieve? Does the original memory he removed merge with the memory he now has? Or will he have two memories? I think both will merge with the new understanding he has of the incident. Else it could be too confusing.

[Shingie]

Random question. If a person has a dissociative disorder (multiple personality, fugue, amnesia) could the memory still be retrieved?

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Shingie

Random question. If a person has a dissociative disorder (multiple personality, fugue, amnesia) could the memory still be retrieved?

If they had Amnesia, then they may not know which memory to remove and in case of mutle personalities, they would not be able to remove memories of other personalities, I think.

[Shingie]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If they had Amnesia, then they may not know which memory to remove and in case of mutle personalities, they would not be able to remove memories of other personalities, I think.

I had another thought. If Bob and Joe are two personalities in the same body, and if you needed a memory of Bob's, would you have to force Bob to come out to get the memory, or can you extract the memory while Joe is the current personality?

In the case of dissociation, I think it would be possible but it'd be very hard to get it out. I was wondering if extreme cases of dissociation would make it impossible to extract the memory.

I like the thoughts on this board, sorry for going off on a tangent. XD I think as memories grow older, they start to fade out and become blurry/distorted. If you put memories in a pensieve you can revisit the memories with clarity.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Shingie

I had another thought. If Bob and Joe are two personalities in the same body, and if you needed a memory of Bob's, would you have to force Bob to come out to get the memory, or can you extract the memory while Joe is the current personality?

I think so, if Bob was not a personality who was averse to giving the memories that is.

In the case of dissociation, I think it would be possible but it'd be very hard to get it out. I was wondering if extreme cases of dissociation would make it impossible to extract the memory.

It might, for one would need to know which memory to extract before removing it. If the mind severs connection to particular memories, then the wizard would find it difficult to extract it.

I think as memories grow older, they start to fade out and become blurry/distorted. If you put memories in a pensieve you can revisit the memories with clarity.

Yes; though when one is older one may not be able to recall every thing in a memory, but they may still be able to remember the memory itself. They can then remove it and view it and remember IMO.

[Smitts]

Originally Posted by willfitz

^ Exactly.

And how would it clear your mind if you weren't actually getting rid of it.

Maybe you are still aware of having the memory, but you don't have the vivid image of it.

I think you are right.

Or maybe you all just found a loophole.

[mexicant]

Perhaps it would be left as an imprint of sorts, like a dream you no longer remember after waking and have no way of retrieving? I think perhaps it could be still somewhere in your memory, just not in a place you could access.

[Duke_Franiks]

Hmm...I never thought of that,but I used to(before now) believe dat you don't retain memories placed in the pensive because Snape would not have wasted his time using it if Harry could have access to his memories.But on the other hand going through memory lane of the whole series, I think one remembers what is placed in the pensive,because Ogden knew his memory will be placed in the pensive and still gave it out knowing it won't affect him in any way,besides Dumbledore won't collect memories from people who will not remember anything later, cause he took Morphin's and still wanted Morphin to defend himself with that same memory. So I have no pin point answer on this.

[mexicant]

That is a good point - perhaps sometimes you can bring the memory itself out, and other times you can bring out a copy? Because I do agree that it would be odd to be able to take a memory from someone and leave them with no recollection.

[The_Green_Woods]

I think what mexicant said seems most possible. Slughorn readily gave up his memory, as did Ogden, but Snape not just removed memories but replaced them carefully at then end of each class. So, maybe there is more than one possibility when it comes to removing memories. They could be removed or copied. When they are removed, I think the wizard would not have any recollection about the memory but would know about a memory withdrawn. Memories that Slughorn gave or Ogden gave are memories that were copies, and so the wizard would retain the original.

[Lorena]

mmm never thought about the copies, I always thought that the memory would be completely removed from the brain. Everything is forgotten.
If you totally remove a memory, you forget all about it, put it in the pensieve and then watch it, I guess sometimes It must be a shock to find out what's there!

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by mexicant

Perhaps it would be left as an imprint of sorts, like a dream you no longer remember after waking and have no way of retrieving? I think perhaps it could be still somewhere in your memory, just not in a place you could access.

This is very plausible to me, too! A residue of a dream, that feeling of a memory/experience locked out of reach.

Also, like TGW, I imagine the person would probably have a recollection of actually removing a memory.

Originally Posted by Lorena

mmm never thought about the copies, I always thought that the memory would be completely removed from the brain. Everything is forgotten.
If you totally remove a memory, you forget all about it, put it in the pensieve and then watch it, I guess sometimes It must be a shock to find out what's there!

I'm not sure, because for instance, we don't hear about Snape looking perplexed or shocked at the memory scene taking place where he caught Harry in the pensieve. He seemed fully aware of what was happening there.

It sounds like it could cause complications though if the person is trying to conceal or forget a certain memory, they view it mistakenly for whatever reason, they'd end up with an extra memory of that event to hide away.

[wolfbrother]

I think when you remove a memory, you will know what happened but won't be able to remember it. So, for example, Snape would know what happened in SWM, but would not be able to recollect it. When you see a memory, you see everything that happened including details that may have faded from your mind. Its like saying that I know the earth is round, but I cannot remember where or when I learnt that. I hope what I'm saying makes sense.
I think it all depends on the technique used to remove the memory. We've seen that it is possible to believe something you never did but believe so because your memory says so (Hokey and Morfin). Memory charm, I suppose, blocks the particular memory from being accessed.
I think its possible for a copy of the memory to be removed as well.
As for the question whether a memory from a person with a dissociative disorder can be retrieved, I believe so but by another person. I think as long as the memory is there, it can be retrieved.

[Gwendolen]

I hope nobody minds me restarting this thread, it's an interesting subject

The question is how does the pensieve work, are the memories copied to the pensieve, or moved there. I thought it would be a good idea to summarise what we know and then think about it.

We know that people can extract memories and put them either in a bottle or in a pensieve. I assume a pensieve is special and you can't view memories without one. Voldemort put his sixteen-year-old self in a diary which has similar properties to Dumbledore's pensieve, so I'm going to assume it was one.

The memories in the pensieve can be seen from outside it, like a hologram, or the person viewing the memory can step inside the memory like a virtual world. Images can appear on the surface of the pensieve, and writing in the diary.

It seems Dumbledore can extract memories from other people and house elves, and wizards can voluntarily extract their own memories. Slughorn is able to supply a false memory that didn't exist in the first place. Memories appear as silvery threads, and can be put into ordinary bottles. It doesn't have to be a special bottle, because Snape's memories were captured in a bottle that Hermione happens to have on her.

Dumbledore says the pensieve helps because he has too many thoughts and memories crammed into his mind, and putting the excess thoughts in the pensieve makes it easier to spot patterns and links. A pensieve can display a memory in perfect clarity and detail, as if it was actually happening, and it can show other people too. JKR said that the pensieve could show you information that you don't even know you remember.

the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice the time. It’s somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere.

The pensieve seems to give people a third-party view on their own memory, so they can get a different perspective, or recall things that they didn't notice at the time.

There's conflicting evidence about whether a memory is moved to the pensieve and then forgotten, or copied to the pensieve leaving the original memory intact.

Dumbledore can discuss memories that are in bottles or the pensieve, which suggests he didn't forget them when he removed them. Voldemort put the memory of his sixteen-year-old self in his diary, which suggests he didn't forget all his memories when he put them into the diary.

Snape removed his memories and put them in the pensieve to stop Harry reading his mind, which implies that putting a memory in the pensieve makes you forget it. In that case why was he upset with Harry as soon as he noticed Harry had seen the memory? Shouldn't he have been upset after he restored his memories, not before?

I think a wizard would have to remember what memories they put in the pensieve, otherwise they'd forget their existence entirely. Snape would have to at least remember putting the memory in the pensieve, and he'd have to know the subject (e.g. "Being Bullied by James Potter) even if he couldn't recall any detail. That could explain Snape's fury.

It seems to me that if you forgot your memories, looking in the pensieve would feel as if you were watching the events for the first time. I think it would be more useful for spotting patterns and links and new detail if what you were looking at didn't come as a surprise to you. If putting the memory in the pensieve made you forget it, you'd have the memory of watching the memory in the pensieve, but not the original memory. It would seem as if the events happened to someone else, until you restored your original memory.

If extracting your memory made you forget it, then why worry about legilimancy and occlumency? You could just put your memory in bottles. There are at least two problems with that. If Snape puts the memory "I am a spy" in a bottle, then he'd forget he is a spy. That would certainly keep anyone from finding out, but wouldn't be helpful. The other problem is that someone might find the bottles, and then they could read your mind in glorious technicolour, like Harry did, instead of getting fleeting impressions via legilimancy.

It seems to me that putting memories in a pensieve does not make you forget them, it just gives you a more detached view of them, and allows you to access memories that you didn't know you knew.

Putting a memory in a pensieve could be more like networking your mind with it. Your memories would be physically in two different places, but still part of your mind. There would be a magic connection between you and the pensieve, that only you can bridge. Anyone who tried to read your mind via legilimancy would only see the memories in your head, anyone who looked at the memories in the pensieve would only see the memories in the pensieve. You would literally be 'in two minds' making it hard for anyone to know what you were thinking.

Does that make any sense?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

Does that make any sense?

Certainly, and I think you hit on a lot of the points which I also found before whilst pondering this topic. Personally, I looked at a few "case studies" when analyzing this topic.

First of all, I looked at Dumbledore, and what he says about the pensieve, and how it provides relief when he feels that many thoughts are crammed into his head. To me, this gives an indication that something is actually removed when the memory is taken, and so I take it that the memory, once removed, cannot be viewed internally, and thus will not cloud your thinking, but it is not quite clear.

Secondly, there is the example of Snape. He removes his memories with the specific intent that they are not thereafter viewable via legilimency. This is probably the strongest indication for me that the memory is removed.

Finally, there is the Slughorn example, where he removes a memory which he himself partially fabricates, leaving the original still in his head, seeing as he is able to give it to Harry later on.

To me, viewing all of these cases, the most likely scenario is the memory removed is everything which your senses pick up at a given time- all the sounds, sights, and smells which combine to form the scene (I think that JKR has a very salient point that if we knew how to train our less used senses, we may actually be able to sense in all directions), and that this stuff is also what can be viewed when someone "reads your mind" via legilimency.

On top of that, though, your experiences which leave you with such memories will also leave thoughts and observations in your mind, things which occur internally, and I believe that these will stay with you. So, for example, while Snape may take the memory of being bullied out of his head, such that Harry cannot enter his mind and view it, he will still be left with the knowledge that the scene happened; he will know what it is that Harry viewed, he'd be able to say exactly what happened, but he will not be able to see it in his mind.

[masoudhollywood]

I'm pretty certain it's just a copy, like a back up.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by willfitz

On top of that, though, your experiences which leave you with such memories will also leave thoughts and observations in your mind, things which occur internally, and I believe that these will stay with you. So, for example, while Snape may take the memory of being bullied out of his head, such that Harry cannot enter his mind and view it, he will still be left with the knowledge that the scene happened; he will know what it is that Harry viewed, he'd be able to say exactly what happened, but he will not be able to see it in his mind.

So putting a memory into a pensieve doesn't remove the conscious memory, but makes it unreadable/unviewable?

That suggests a legilimens is doing something similar to the pensieve. I assumed that a legilimens could read conscious memories, but it makes sense if they are using the target like a pensieve instead.

I think Snape said it's not like watching pictures in someone's head, but that might be because it isn't easy for someone else to extract the information.