Do you remember memories in a pensieve?

[abl385]

As time moves on your own memories of what actually happened may become distorted or changed. It is possible that your memories change over time. Does the pensieve magically prevent this from happening potentially?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

What about Slughorn's case then? Under your suggested circumstances, Slughorn should not have had the original memory intact, only the altered one. If he changed/removed parts of the memory and should only factual knowledge (or the altered memory) in his head, how is it that he can produce not only the changed memory, the but original one as well? Whether or not he put the changed memory back into his head, according to your theory there's no memory of the incident in there, just some facts. But clearly he delivers a whole original memory to Harry.

This is, of course, the issue with this discussion- the apparent discord between the Slughorn case and the Snape case. The Snape case indicates, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ability to remove memories from one's head such that they cannot be explored through legilimency, and indeed Dumbledore also indicates the complete removal of memories when he explains how the pensieve can help one clear a cluttered mind. On the other hand, the Slughorn case shows the removal of a memory where the original does indeed remain. It all appears to be at odds.

The fact remains that Slughorn did not give the original memory the first time, and did the second time. It could be so simple as that- what he gave the first time was not actually the memory (though of course much of it was), and so the original remained in his head. This seems awkward to me, though.

Frankly, I feel that it is more likely that one can duplicate a memory if they wish too when they remove it from their head. This would make the whole thing much more user-friendly, of course. When someone asks for your memory, you don't have to worry about getting it back from them, and at the same time, you can clear your head or protect certain memories by removing them completely if you wish.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by willfitz

This is, of course, the issue with this discussion- the apparent discord between the Slughorn case and the Snape case. The Snape case indicates, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the ability to remove memories from one's head such that they cannot be explored through legilimency, and indeed Dumbledore also indicates the complete removal of memories when he explains how the pensieve can help one clear a cluttered mind. On the other hand, the Slughorn case shows the removal of a memory where the original does indeed remain. It all appears to be at odds.

I was under the impression that Dumbledore used the pensieve to look for patterns/connections between memories, which is easier than trying to do it in your head, with so many other memories present as well. I thought the "cluttered mind" remark was humor on Dumbledore's part.

Frankly, I feel that it is more likely that one can duplicate a memory if they wish too when they remove it from their head. This would make the whole thing much more user-friendly, of course. When someone asks for your memory, you don't have to worry about getting it back from them, and at the same time, you can clear your head or protect certain memories by removing them completely if you wish.

So am I correct in assuming that you are saying that copies can be made of memories, or the original one can be removed entirely if desired?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I was under the impression that Dumbledore used the pensieve to look for patterns/connections between memories, which is easier than trying to do it in your head, with so many other memories present as well. I thought the "cluttered mind" remark was humor on Dumbledore's part.

I never saw it as humour (at least, not just humour), but regardless, the point is backed up by Snape's use of it.

So am I correct in assuming that you are saying that copies can be made of memories, or the original one can be removed entirely if desired?

That's basically what I was saying, yes. No assumption necessary.

I feel like any other explanation is slightly at odds with either Snape's use of the Pensieve, or Slughorn's ability to retain the original memory while removing a tampered version of that same memory. I say slightly at odds because the fact that the given memory was tampered leaves a little room for argument over whether or not it counts as the same memory.

[EXPELIAMUS]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I like your creative view; however if it were that easy to make memories faint and therefore unreadable by Legilimency, then why wouldn't Snape simply make them all faint instead of resorting to Occlumency which takes great effort and skill but still leaves you open to slip-ups, or having your memories read while you're unconscious?

Thank you. That is an interesting question. My answer to it would depend on who attempted Legilimency on Snape. I know at least Voldemort and Harry Potter have. If it was just those two then I might have something, but if there is no official list and it was just random wizards/death eaters, then I'll have to think about it further.

Edit: I'll just give 2 possible answers for the time being:

1. The reduced original memory in your brain can still be observed through Legilimency.
2. Only the most powerful wizards such as Voldemort and Harry Potter can observe a reduced memory with Legilimency.

[Dan_the_Man]

Originally Posted by EXPELIAMUS

1. The reduced original memory in your brain can still be observed through Legilimency.
2. Only the most powerful wizards such as Voldemort and Harry Potter can observe a reduced memory with Legilimency.

The only way it can be observed through Legilimency is if the 'owner' of the memory has some acknowledgement of it (conscious or subconscious).

In which case, I'd say the 'owner' of the memory has some control as to how much they remember. Dumbledore shows Harry a memory of his own, but how would he be able to show Harry if he could not remember the memory himself? Perhaps he could note it down, but then could we not assume that the memories could be mere dreams?

As to your second point, that seems legit. However, I wouldn't say they'd have to be so powerful as the Chosen One and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. With loads of practice, one could probably access a reduced memory.

Dan

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I like your creative view; however if it were that easy to make memories faint and therefore unreadable by Legilimency, then why wouldn't Snape simply make them all faint instead of resorting to Occlumency which takes great effort and skill but still leaves you open to slip-ups, or having your memories read while you're unconscious?

My interpretation of EXPELIAMUS' view is that it is the Pensieve that allows one to duplicate memories in that specific way. If Snape did not have constant access to the Pensieve (and this raises an interesting, but off topic, point of how much did Snape use Dumbledore's Pensieve to hide memories/information from Voldemort), then he would not be able to make memories faint - that process, instead, would require the magic of the Pensieve.

While I, too, enjoy the intrigue of this process, I do not know how fully I support it. I do lean towards the idea that memories can be duplicated, but that this would be a conscious process. Instead, I rather think that placing memories into the Pensieve removes the memory from one's mind but maintains an imprint of recognition of the memory. Then, when one is observing the memory within the Pensieve, it is as if you remember that scene, but with much better breadth (i.e. the Pensieve, when you are exploring it, acts as an extension of your mind).

To put this in context, when Dumbledore or Snape deposited memories into the Pensieve, I think they lost the details of the memory while retaining a recognition of it, or a knowledge that that memory exists. But not until they explored the memory in the Pensieve or replaced it back into their brains would they fully 'remember' those scenes.

In Slughorn's case, I think we see an instance of two memories being created by Slughorn retaining the true memory while also trying to hide it. Thus, the true memory never left his mind, and the tampered one did not replace it because it was a mere perversion of the truth. Hence why Dumbledore insists that the true memory still exists - because Slughorn only covered up the truth with a lie to himself. Therefore, Slughorn, in essence, created a false memory based upon the truth. I do not see any inconsistency with how Slughorn's memories worked and the other memories we see.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I was under the impression that Dumbledore used the pensieve to look for patterns/connections between memories, which is easier than trying to do it in your head, with so many other memories present as well. I thought the "cluttered mind" remark was humor on Dumbledore's part.

That's how Dumbledore explained it. Here's the quote from GOF.

GOF, pg 597 “This? It is called a Pensieve,” said Dumbledore. “I sometimes find, and I am sure you know the feeling, that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind.” “Er,” said Harry, who couldn’t truthfully say that he had ever felt anything of the sort. “At these times,” said Dumbledore, indicating the stone basin, “I use the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one’s mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one’s leisure. It becomes easier to spot patterns and links, you understand, when they are in this form.” “You mean . . . that stuff ’s your thoughts?” Harry said, staring at the swirling white substance in the basin. “Certainly,” said Dumbledore. “Let me show you.”

That is also consistent with what Snape told Harry when he said Legilimency sounded like mind reading. Dumbledore told Harry in HBP that he used Legilimency to acquire the memories they viewed in the Pensieve.

OOTP, pgs 530-531 “Only Muggles talk of ‘mind reading.’ The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter . . . or at least, most minds are. . . .” He smirked. “It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly."

With the explanations given on page regarding the Pensieve and Legilimency, my take is that Legilimency does not remove the actual memory, but rather the thought in your mind about that memory. Such thoughts can be viewed "mentally" - as we see when Harry accidentally reverses Snape's Legilimency in OOTP and sees into his mind - or they can be placed into a Pensieve where they can be viewed more objectively to look for patterns and links.

Likewise, when Dumbledore shows Harry his own memory of meeting young Tom Riddle for the first time, it does not appear that he does not remember what happened in that memory. On the contrary, Dumbledore seems very aware of what will happen - even knowing where he would be and pointing himself out to Harry. Afterward - with that thought still in the Pensieve - Dumbledore was able to fully discuss the memory they just viewed - revealing to Harry what he was thinking at the time and his impressions of young Tom Riddle that were not revealed by simply viewing the event in the Pensieve. So I would say the actual memory was still in Dumbledore's mind and the thought about that memory is what he put into the Pensieve.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

With the explanations given on page regarding the Pensieve and Legilimency, my take is that Legilimency does not remove the actual memory, but rather the thought in your mind about that memory. Such thoughts can be viewed "mentally" - as we see when Harry accidentally reverses Snape's Legilimency in OOTP and sees into his mind - or they can be placed into a Pensieve where they can be viewed more objectively to look for patterns and links.

Likewise, when Dumbledore shows Harry his own memory of meeting young Tom Riddle for the first time, it does not appear that he does not remember what happened in that memory. On the contrary, Dumbledore seems very aware of what will happen - even knowing where he would be and pointing himself out to Harry. Afterward - with that thought still in the Pensieve - Dumbledore was able to fully discuss the memory they just viewed - revealing to Harry what he was thinking at the time and his impressions of young Tom Riddle that were not revealed by simply viewing the event in the Pensieve. So I would say the actual memory was still in Dumbledore's mind and the thought about that memory is what he put into the Pensieve.

I don't get it. If the memory remains in one's mind after placing it in a pensieve, what was the point of Snape using a pensieve in preparation for Harry's Occlumency lesson? Should Harry once again accidentally break into Snape's mind, there are those memories he didn't want Harry (or Voldemort because of the connection with Harry) to see!!

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

I don't get it. If the memory remains in one's mind after placing it in a pensieve, what was the point of Snape using a pensieve in preparation for Harry's Occlumency lesson? Should Harry once again accidentally break into Snape's mind, there are those memories he didn't want Harry (or Voldemort because of the connection with Harry) to see!!

I think the point would be that Legilimency doesn't take the actual memory - it only takes the thoughts about that memory. I think that would be the difference between memory charms, which would effect the actual memory by completely removing it or altering it - depending on which charm you used - and Legilimency. Snape removed certain thoughts from his head and stored them in the Pensieve just in case Harry did manage to reverse the Legilimency, but from how it is explained, there was never any danger of Harry getting to Snape's actual memories. Harry would only see whatever thoughts Snape left behind. That's my understanding of it.

[MasterOfDeath]

I don't remember if I remember if you remember memories in a pensieve.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I think the point would be that Legilimency doesn't take the actual memory - it only takes the thoughts about that memory. I think that would be the difference between memory charms, which would effect the actual memory by completely removing it or altering it - depending on which charm you used - and Legilimency. Snape removed certain thoughts from his head and stored them in the Pensieve just in case Harry did manage to reverse the Legilimency, but from how it is explained, there was never any danger of Harry getting to Snape's actual memories. Harry would only see whatever thoughts Snape left behind. That's my understanding of it.

Of course Legilimency doesn't remove memories from the subject's mind. I don't understand why that ever came up in this discussion.

Obviously I misunderstood your comments about Dumbledore's memories. I thought you meant he'd retained the memories even though he'd put them in his pensieve. . . .

The lesson we read about in OotP isn't the first occasion when Snape used the pensieve; he'd been doing that before including the time of Harry's accidental intrusion. Since Harry didn't see SWM at that time, that seems clear to me that the memory is actually gone.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Of course Legilimency doesn't remove memories from the subject's mind. I don't understand why that ever came up in this discussion.

Obviously I misunderstood your comments about Dumbledore's memories. I thought you meant he'd retained the memories even though he'd put them in his pensieve. . . .

The lesson we read about in OotP isn't the first occasion when Snape used the pensieve; he'd been doing that before including the time of Harry's accidental intrusion. Since Harry didn't see SWM at that time, that seems clear to me that the memory is actually gone.

Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP that he used Legilimency to acquire the thoughts he put into the Pensieve so Harry could view those memories about Voldemort's past. That's why I mentioned Legilimency - from what Dumbledore told Harry, that's how you get a thought out of someone's head to put it into the Pensieve.

I did mean that the actual memories are retained - we see that with Dumbledore in HBP when he shows Harry his own memory. I think it's clear that Dumbledore retains the actual memory even though the thought about the memory was put into the Pensieve. He knows what's going on while they're viewing the scene and is able to discuss things that weren't revealed in the Pensieve after - while the thought is still in the Pensieve. We also see that with SWM when Snape catches Harry - I think it's clear that he retains the actual memory because he is furious with Harry and mentions things from the memory afterward.

From what we're shown, Harry would never have seen Snape's actual memories during the Occlumency lessons. He only saw Snape's thoughts. Snape removed certain thoughts - one of which was SWM - and stored them in the Pensieve. When Harry accidentally reversed the Legilimency, he didn't see those thoughts in Snape's mind because they had been removed. The actual memories were still there, but from what Dumbledore said, Legilimency does not reveal actual memories - it only reveals thoughts about such memories.

That's my understanding of it. I guess it could be said that the thought is like a copy in a way.

[owlycherries]

Yes, I've always believed you can remember memories in a pensieve. This is how I think it works.

In your head, you have a memory. I imagine this as a cloudy swirly thing. For example, Snape's mudblood memory. This memory contains everything about that incident. When you put a memory in the pensieve, you are literally taking this cloudy thing out of your head. However, you still REMEMBER this memory and what happened in it, even though you don't have the actual cloudy thing (the memory) in your head anymore. Basically you are removing this memory and safeguarding it by putting it in the pensieve, where it cannot be forgotten and you visit it at your leisure.
Now, once that memory is removed from your head, it becomes impossible for someone using legilimency to try to view that thought. The cloudy thing is gone. The cloudy things are what people are looking at when they use legilimency. If the cloudy things are gone, the memory cannot be viewed by people outside the person. However, the person who the memory was from and who removed the memory CAN still remember it. It is simply the object of the memory (the cloudy thing) that has been removed.


Hm. I hope that makes sense. It does to me anyway.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP that he used Legilimency to acquire the thoughts he put into the Pensieve so Harry could view those memories about Voldemort's past. That's why I mentioned Legilimency - from what Dumbledore told Harry, that's how you get a thought out of someone's head to put it into the Pensieve.

Regarding using legilimency to acquire the memory, my own memory of what Dumbledore said was that he used legilimency to break through the memory charms and actually get the memory back into the person's mind such that they could remove it, not that he actually used legilimency to directly suck out the person's memory.

I did mean that the actual memories are retained - we see that with Dumbledore in HBP when he shows Harry his own memory. I think it's clear that Dumbledore retains the actual memory even though the thought about the memory was put into the Pensieve. He knows what's going on while they're viewing the scene and is able to discuss things that weren't revealed in the Pensieve after - while the thought is still in the Pensieve. We also see that with SWM when Snape catches Harry - I think it's clear that he retains the actual memory because he is furious with Harry and mentions things from the memory afterward.

From what we're shown, Harry would never have seen Snape's actual memories during the Occlumency lessons. He only saw Snape's thoughts. Snape removed certain thoughts - one of which was SWM - and stored them in the Pensieve. When Harry accidentally reversed the Legilimency, he didn't see those thoughts in Snape's mind because they had been removed. The actual memories were still there, but from what Dumbledore said, Legilimency does not reveal actual memories - it only reveals thoughts about such memories.

On the whole, I think that JKR was being less than careful about conflating the terms memory and thought with regards to the pensieve. As far as I can tell, no one who suggests that the actual memory is removed is suggesting that the person forgets the contents of the memory, but rather that they simply can't recreate the situation in their own head audiovisually, as we are wont to do with our memories. For example, I know that I was born 21+ years ago in Yellowknife, but I can't see that scene in my mind. There is definitely a memory of it in someone's mind, but despite the fact that I know what happened, I can't see it.

The audiovisual aspect seems to me to be what is accessed through Legilimency, and it is certainly what is accessed in the Pensieve (though truly more than just sight and sound of the rememberer goes into constructing the memories), and this makes sense on all cases, in my opinion. Dumbledore uses the Pensieve to 'unclutter' his mind such that he can see things easier, and certainly preventing audiovisual snippets from flying through your head would accomplish such a task, and Snape removes the memories so that Harry can't access them through Legilimency.

I would also advocate that it could be true that a person can choose whether they retain the memory upon removal. This would make sense with Slughorn, but I think the books only make sense if characters are able to remove the audiovisual memory completely from their mind if they choose.

[Th3Phoenix89]

I think memory is completely removed,as we know that Dumbledore said :-
One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one's own leisure.