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Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?



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  #21  
Old March 11th, 2009, 3:34 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

Is it feasible to suggest that Barty Crouch turned the Cup into a portkey upon Harry and Cedric's grasping it? We see later on that it need only take moments to turn an object into a Portkey. Dumbledore does it to take the Weasley's and Harry back to 12 Grimmauld Place after Arthur is attacked, if I'm remembering correctly. And we do know that Crouch was doing all he could outside of the maze to keep Harry's path clear.

Even still, I do agree that this is likely just a convenient plot hole.


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  #22  
Old March 11th, 2009, 4:08 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Just as a theory to start off with, I think that maybe Dumbledore had already made the cup a portkey to return the winning student out of the maze. Either Moody didn't know this, or Dumbledore had prevented the spell from being removed.
I think this is the most plausible theory. It's the only one that fits with the point that Harry did not end up back in the maze when he went back. So the two-way portkey theory is out on that one.

I'm sure that Barty Crouch Jr. did know that the cup was a portkey from the beginning. He knew quite a bit about all the tasks, so that seems like it would be a big thing not to know. Knowing what happens to the winner after he or she grabs the cup doesn't seem like it would be secret information.

I believe it was either lack of knowledge on how portkeys work, that making it a portkey on an object that is already a portkey does not cancel the first out. Or it was just overconfidence. It was very lucky that Harry escaped.

So there's that...
Or it's just one big plot hole, haha.


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  #23  
Old March 11th, 2009, 5:15 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

I would say yes. I would say that they probably either set two different times for the portkeys originally, or they had a team of wizards who took the portkeys from the "used portkey" pile and bewitched them for the return trip.

I just find it difficult to believe that you have to set two times for a portkey.

Incidentally, it turns out that Dumbledore gives us a third example of portkeys being used in OotP, when he makes a one-way portkey to Grimmauld Place.


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  #24  
Old March 11th, 2009, 8:44 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
The idea is that Dumbledore would have made the cup a portkey so that it would take the first person to touch it (after Moody) to the outside of the maze. Moody would have put a spell to make it take the first person to the graveyard. As the cup couldn't take someone to two places at once, so the more recent spell takes precedent. Moody's spell executes when the first person touches the cup, then Dumbledore's spell executes when the next person touches it.
How do you know that Moody's spell would take precedent because it was the most recent....? I don't think there's any proof for that, and if so, why didn't it take precedent the second time around when Harry left the graveyard?

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Also, Dumbledore didn't seem too worried about freaking people out with blast-ended skrewts and giant acromantula, not to mention finding their friends unconscious at the bottom of the great lake.
But those were all parts of the tournament designed to test the champions daring and bravery. When they touch the Cup, the competition is over. There's no need to scare them. If the Cup was meant to be a Portkey, Dumbledore would have told them. I just can't see any way around that.


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  #25  
Old March 11th, 2009, 9:33 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

Well, can you imagine the look on Harry's face if he touched the cup for that second time and it transported him - - right back to the graveyard again?! lol!
As moody said (in the movie), "End of story, goodbye, the end... any questions?"

But I assume the cup was originally supposed to do what it did in the end. Moody's spell was a temporary detour. If spells stack on top of each other, First In Last Out (a FILO stack as it's known by programmers), like Pringles* in a can, the last spell in would be the first to execute, and the first one in (DD's) would be last (second) to execute.


*For those on the other side of the pond, Pringles are crisps, specially molded to stack tightly and fit perfectly in a long can.


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  #26  
Old March 11th, 2009, 10:45 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
How do you know that Moody's spell would take precedent because it was the most recent....? I don't think there's any proof for that, and if so, why didn't it take precedent the second time around when Harry left the graveyard?
I think that you misunderstand me. First of all, you are right, there is no proof of this, it is simply part of my theory of why this happened. There is much that JK hasn't yet explicitly explained, and is the point of discussions like these to try to explain it with the knowledge that we have.

It is my opinion that each creation of a portkey is only good for one journey. You do not have to specify a return trip. Hence, Moody's spell will have taken precedent the first time, and would have run its course. It will not have been a factor, therefore, when Harry once again touched the cup.

The idea of Moody's spell taking precedent just makes sense to me. It is like if you have a tower of blocks, and you take a block (let's call it Block A) from near the bottom (so fast that the tower doesn't topple, but just falls down a level) and place it on the top. Then you take a Block B from near the bottom and place it on the top. Which is now on top? Block A, which you placed on top first, or Block B, which you placed on top after.

I feel that this is similar to what would happen if Dumbledore and subsequently Moody placed similar spells on the Cup to transfer the first person who touches it to the graveyard. Logically, one spell must go first, assuming that it can't take you to two places at once. I think that it would go with Moody's spell first, then Dumbledore's.

Quote:
But those were all parts of the tournament designed to test the champions daring and bravery. When they touch the Cup, the competition is over. There's no need to scare them. If the Cup was meant to be a Portkey, Dumbledore would have told them. I just can't see any way around that.
In fact, I would feel that there would be every need to. A portkey was the easiest way to determine a winner. With people like the surly and competitive Viktor Krum in the maze, it is easy to see why Dumbledore would want to rely on who came out of the maze with the cup to tell who got there first. Remember, getting out of the maze with the cup wasn't the objective of the task, and attempting to could have gotten hairy.

You may say that he could have put a spell on the cup similar to what is placed on a Golden Snitch, or other measures to tell who was first to touch it. A portkey, however, was the easiest and most efficient way, not to mention the best for the crowd, who would be able to instantly identify the winner.


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  #27  
Old March 11th, 2009, 11:49 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Which particular use was that? I don't believe that the portkeys at the Quidditch World Cup were two-way. I think that they were just set up again to go home.
You're right about the portkeys at the world cup. They took a different portkey home.
It's possible that there are variations on the portkey spell. Enchanting the cup to remove the champion from the maze sounds like a very efficient way of identifying the winner.
On the other hand, it's possible that portkey spells are normally two way: or so Harry seems to have understood it, otherwise he wouldn't have been so sure that he would be returned to Hogwarts when he grabbed the cup after his duel with Voldemort. But it did not return him to the center of the maze, from whence he'd come. That would seem to reenforce the prior enchantment theory.
Clearly nobody told the competitors that the cup was a portkey because Harry asked Cedric if he had been told that the cup was a portkey and he answered no. If it had worked the way it was supposed to, and merely removed them from the maze, the logic of it would have been clear to him and he wouldn't have said anything even if he was a bit surprised by it. It's quite possible that enchanting the cup was a traditional way of identifying the winner, and if Harry had bothered to read up on the tournament like Hermione, he would have expected it.
As to why Dumbledore didn't bother to tell the competitors that the cup was a portkey, why should he? He frequently withheld that kind of information from the students. Perhaps he thought it was obvious that it should be one. After all, it wasn't untill their 6th year that Harry,and his classmates were told that thestrals were pulling the (horseless) carriages.



Last edited by Quickquill; March 12th, 2009 at 12:13 am.
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  #28  
Old March 12th, 2009, 12:23 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by elvenprincess
so they re-did the spell, in the midst of all that chaos?
It seems so. The Weasleys and Diggorys took an old boot to the Quidditch World Cup, but, "they joined the queue, and were able to take an old rubber tire back to Stoatshead Hill." Maybe the old boot was a two-way Portkey, but with all the commotion it was not able to be used, since it would have been on a timer.

However, we have no evidence from other Portkeys we have seen to suggest all - or even most - Portkeys are two-way. In fact, we have more evidence to the contrary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH
How do you know that Moody's spell would take precedent because it was the most recent....? I don't think there's any proof for that, and if so, why didn't it take precedent the second time around when Harry left the graveyard?
I am not sure that Moody's spell would necessarily take precedent over Dumbledore's simply because of the order they were performed. However, let us say Dumbledore had enchanted the Portkey before "Moody" took it into the maze. Moody would have known of Dumbledore's enchantment, so he could make his Portus spell overpower Dumbledore's, who would have performed a simply spell, not expecting Moody to betray him. Therefore, Moody's spell would take precedent over Dumbledore's, not because of the order they were cast in, but because of the power Moody included in his.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz
In fact, I would feel that there would be every need to. A portkey was the easiest way to determine a winner. With people like the surly and competitive Viktor Krum in the maze, it is easy to see why Dumbledore would want to rely on who came out of the maze with the cup to tell who got there first. Remember, getting out of the maze with the cup wasn't the objective of the task, and attempting to could have gotten hairy.
I agree. Although this does not address why Dumbledore would not have told the champions. However, I think that if the champions knew the cup was a Portkey, the task could have been manipulated in certain ways, and it would have made the champions more eager to betray the others. Knowing that such an inconclusive method would be used to determine the winner could easily cause problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickquill
On the other hand, it's possible that portkey spells are normally two way: or so Harry seems to have understood it, otherwise he wouldn't have been so sure that he would be returned to Hogwarts when he grabbed the cup after his duel with Voldemort. But it did not return him to the center of the maze, from whence he'd come. That would seem to reenforce the prior enchantment theory.
Actually, Harry did not use his own knowledge of Portkeys to assume it would return him to Hogwarts. The "shadow" of Lily told him:
GoF, Priori Incantatem, Ch. 34, Page 667, American, HB"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments...but we will give you time...you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts...do you understand, Harry?"

So it was this shadow that Harry relied upon to tell him that the Portkey could be used.

This raises another possibility (though slimmer): could the shadows have had anything to do with enchanting the Portkey to return to Hogwarts?


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  #29  
Old March 12th, 2009, 3:18 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I
This raises another possibility (though slimmer): could the shadows have had anything to do with enchanting the Portkey to return to Hogwarts?
I don't think so. I think that the dead are all-seeing and all-knowing, and knew that Dumbledore had placed a charm on the cup.


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  #30  
Old March 13th, 2009, 2:29 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

It's a plot hole. I can't see any evidence otherwise. Can we all just accept it and move on, please?



Last edited by DeathlyH; March 13th, 2009 at 2:41 am.
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  #31  
Old March 13th, 2009, 2:52 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

I don't see the problem. It was a portkey between Hogwarts and the Graveyard. Depending where you are when you grab it, you end up in the other place. Originally, it would take the winner to the winner's circle and it still had that power as well. So it went from the Graveyard to Hogwarts and since someone was holding it, took them right to the winner's circle.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 3:00 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I don't see the problem. It was a portkey between Hogwarts and the Graveyard. Depending where you are when you grab it, you end up in the other place. Originally, it would take the winner to the winner's circle and it still had that power as well. So it went from the Graveyard to Hogwarts and since someone was holding it, took them right to the winner's circle.
But Crouch Jr. "Madeye" was the one to place the spell. He was obviously wanting to help Voldemort get rid of Harry so why would he put another spell to help Harry escape.

Its just one of those things that we may never be able to figure out.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 6:12 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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But Crouch Jr. "Madeye" was the one to place the spell. He was obviously wanting to help Voldemort get rid of Harry so why would he put another spell to help Harry escape.

Its just one of those things that we may never be able to figure out.
This has already been discussed. The intent wasn't to help Harry to escape; it was to return Harry's corpse.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 6:23 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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This has already been discussed. The intent wasn't to help Harry to escape; it was to return Harry's corpse.
How were they going to manage that? Cradle it in his hands with a levitation spell? I dunno if that would work... Seems like a living person would have to accompany him in order for that to work. I dunno if a dead wizard touching a portkey would actually travel.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 6:28 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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How were they going to manage that? Cradle it in his hands with a levitation spell? I dunno if that would work... Seems like a living person would have to accompany him in order for that to work. I dunno if a dead wizard touching a portkey would actually travel.
We know the dead can travel by portkey; it's not much of a stretch to believe that one can be alone.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 8:26 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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How were they going to manage that? Cradle it in his hands with a levitation spell? I dunno if that would work... Seems like a living person would have to accompany him in order for that to work. I dunno if a dead wizard touching a portkey would actually travel.
Great point, that definitely helps my theory.

I actually think that it is a stretch to consider dead bodies traveling alone by portkey. If you were to throw the cup at a bone, would the bone be transported? I strongly doubt it.

I think that the portkey was set up to react to the first living touch, and I think portkeys in general will transport any living creature touching it at its time of departure.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 9:08 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Great point, that definitely helps my theory.

I actually think that it is a stretch to consider dead bodies traveling alone by portkey. If you were to throw the cup at a bone, would the bone be transported? I strongly doubt it.

I think that the portkey was set up to react to the first living touch, and I think portkeys in general will transport any living creature touching it at its time of departure.
So imperius a nearby crow to grab the cup and Harry.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 9:16 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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So imperius a nearby crow to grab the cup and Harry.
Or perhaps a it only works with living humans. Or perhaps the spell that triggered the portkey was only for human touch. The thing is, if a cow had come back with Harry's body, they still would have figured out that he came back from somewhere else, not the maze, as there weren't cows in the maze (probably).


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Old March 13th, 2009, 9:39 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I actually think that it is a stretch to consider dead bodies traveling alone by portkey. If you were to throw the cup at a bone, would the bone be transported? I strongly doubt it.

I think that the portkey was set up to react to the first living touch, and I think portkeys in general will transport any living creature touching it at its time of departure.
I agree. How do we know that the dead can travel by portkey? If it is mentioned in the books can someone please point it out cause I don't remember that.
I really have a hard time believing that there were two destinations put on this portkey. Even if it was to transport Harry's dead body it seems unlikely that Voldemort would let anything happen that could potentially lead Harry to escape.


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Old March 13th, 2009, 10:57 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I agree. How do we know that the dead can travel by portkey? If it is mentioned in the books can someone please point it out cause I don't remember that.
Cedric Diggory, anyone?


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