Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

A vanished body would raise questions of what happened - what spell or creature in the maze got rid of Harry and his body? There would have been checks and tests. A dead body could be passed off as a casualty of the tournament. A missing body would raise questions as to where it had gone.

Originally Posted by willfitz

I, too, agree with other posters that in the context of the Triwizard Cup competition, a disappearance would raise significantly more alarm than a dead body. There were plenty of things in the maze challenge which were placed there by the Triwizard Committee which were known to have the capability to kill a competitor, but I doubt that there was anything there which would have been able to make a competitor disappear. Given "Moody's" position as the only witness, it would have been comparatively simple to concoct a story as to how Harry wound up savaged to death just as he reached the cup, but quite difficult, I feel, to explain how both he and the cup just disappeared.

A missing body could also be passed off as a casualty of the tournament–and leave a lot more questions unanswered. I’m a fan of forensic shows (not dramas–the Investigation Discovery channel type stuff) and it is always harder to solve murders where they have no body. That is simply a fact.

All Moody would have to say is he saw Harry touch the cup and disappear, which would be true. Moody wouldn’t have to concoct a story at all. Though why he didn’t report it sooner might raise questions.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

The example in the graveyard is the only one we see of two brother wands sending spells at each other, therefore, I think it's safe to say that Priori Incantatem does that under those circumstances.

It’s the Reverse Spell effect, not the Levitate and Reverse Spell effect. Spells are very specific, as are their results. It is not safe to say that levitation is part of Priori Incantatem precisely because of the specificity of magic in JKR’s world.

Why even include that part anyway? If JKR needed them to move away from the cup so that Harry could run back to it, there are easier, less questionable ways to do so. To make it so obvious is to invite the reader to ask–what is going on here?

Originally Posted by FurryDice

How can Dumbledore turn an object into a portkey at that distance? There's nothing in the series which suggests such a thing is possible.

The world’s most powerful wizard using the world’s most powerful wand? I certainly think it would be possible. And I love that Voldemort claims (twice) that he has removed Harry from DD’s help and protection! More irony, that.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I don't think so. Fawkes gave the feathers, but that does not mean that Dumbledore can control the wands. If he could do that, he would have done something about Voldemort's wand before.

Never said that DD was controlling the wands. DD is simply communicating with Harry through Fawkes. And casting a Portus spell.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

What happened in the graveyard was a consequence of the timing of Harry's and Voldemort's spells. Dumbledore couldn't control that. It seems to be something people have heard of in the wizarding world - Priori Incantatem, the reverse spell effect. IMO, that happened because of Harry and Voldemort's spells and not because of Dumbledore.

Didn’t say that DD caused Priori Incantatem or controlled it. But he knew about it’s possibility–which is a big clue that he’s involved, btw. Harry hears in his head–“Don’t break the connection”–when the phoenix song starts. Who’s telling him that? Fawkes? God? The Cosmos? Who’s the only one that knows about Priori Incantatem? Not Harry. Not Voldemort. Dumbledore is the only one involved that knows about Priori Incantatem.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Voldemort wouldn't have known that, though. He wouldn't have known that Snape had told Dumbledore anything.

He would have strongly suspected it, though, since he believed Snape had gone over to the other side.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Nor could he control the timing of Harry and Voldemort sending spells at each other. If the timing had been just a little different, Voldemort's AK would have killed Harry before he'd finished casting his Expelliarmus.

He didn’t control the timing of the spells. But when the wands did connect, DD was informed by Fawkes and Fawkes allowed communication between Harry and DD. DD understood that if the wands continued to battle, Priori Incantatem would occur, thus possibly providing a diversion for Harry to get to the Portkey.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Where does it say for definite that there are only timed Portkeys? The two uses of the triwizard cup says otherwise. The cup acted as a portkey operated by touch. Crouch Jr. admits that he turned the cup into a portkey to take the first to touch it to the graveyard. He could have no idea when Harry would reach it. It operated by touch, not timing to take Harry to the graveyard.

All other Portkeys we are shown in the books are timed. The second use of the Triwizard cup as a Portkey, I believe, was also timed, since there is a definite “NOW” coordinating efforts. Though I can understand how it might be read differently.

As for the first use of the Triwizard cup being touch activated, that can also be read two ways. The cup was already touch activated–at least to reward full marks, if not to transport the winner to the judges panel. Crouch could simply have added his Portus spell to the original function of the cup to make it transport Harry to the graveyard. That doesn’t necessarily mean there is a different Portus Charm that is touch activated.

Originally Posted by willfitz

It is true that it is never specifically mentioned that portkeys are not able to be used under normal circumstances, but I think that it can be assumed based on a bit of logical reasoning: firstly, if portkeys were able to take anyone anywhere on the Hogwarts grounds at any time, then the anti-Apparition magic of which a great deal is made would be completely useless, and secondly, if a portkey could have been used to remove Harry from Hogwarts at any time during the year, then I don't think that Voldemort's plan would have needed to be as complicated as it was.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by willfitz

So I do believe that Dumbledore needed to make an exception in order to make the cup work as a portkey in the first place; however, I don't see why we would need to consider that Voldemort would be unable to send Harry's body back if that was his plan. If Dumbledore had lifted the anti-portkey enchantment temporarily, than I think it would make the most sense if he was planning on not reinstating it until after the cup moved the winner back to the audience (otherwise, what's the point). Hence, until Voldemort returned Harry's body, if that was his plan, he would not have to worry about anti-portkey enchantments.

It’s somewhat of a moot point for me because I don’t think LV ever intended to send Harry’s body back. It seems he planned to have Nagini eat it.

I can’t see DD leaving the whole school open to any magical transport at any time during the entire third task–especially knowing that the tournament was rigged to include Harry. I think he would have narrowed the authorization considerably. It would have been safer to lift the restriction for one use of the Triwizard cup. Coming back would have needed another authorization from DD. But that’s extrapolating from how the behavior of the Goblet of Fire worked (it performed its function–it chose the champions–and then deactivated until the next tournament) which may or may not be a valid assumption.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Finally, while it is a distinct possibility that Snape would inform Dumbledore as soon as he received his summons, I don't feel that, at that time anyway, there would be any real reason (excluding a hunch or a 'bad feeling about this') for them to draw a connection between Voldemort's return and Harry, who to the best of their knowledge was in the midst of a competition.

He was in the midst of a highly suspicious competition! One he was deviously and magically entered into against his will and from which, up until that time, he had not suffered any ill affects–which they were expecting due to the circumstance of his inclusion. That Voldemort reincarnates at precisely the moment when Harry has not been seen for over an hour would have DD’s alarm bells going off like crazy.

[FurryDice]

[quote]

Originally Posted by willfitz

But that is tricky, too. When is Harry ever alone in Hogsmeade. Even if Crouch could get Harry to 'come with him,' how could he do this without H/R being aware? I think this might be quite a bit easier to accomplish at Hogwarts, and it would be far more likely for a student to disappear in Hogwarts than in the maze, simply because no one knows everything about Hogwarts, whereas everything in the maze would have been accounted for.

Crouch could easily have asked Harry to move aside or outside of the Three Broomsticks so he could speak to him in private. Given Moody's infamous paranoia, it would be believable. However, in this scenario, Voldemort wouldn't have cared about raising suspicion, and the elaborate set-up as well as the information from the Order suggests that he didn't want to raise suspicions - or at least, not confirm suspicions.

Well, I assume that there were a finite and known number of creatures and obstacles to search through to find remains. Besides that, I can't see them accepting that the cup was in any way digested. It wouldn't disappear even if it was eaten.

I was joking. I think there would have been no plausible explanation for Harry and the Cup just vanishing into thin air.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

A missing body could also be passed off as a casualty of the tournament–and leave a lot more questions unanswered. I’m a fan of forensic shows (not dramas–the Investigation Discovery channel type stuff) and it is always harder to solve murders where they have no body. That is simply a fact.

No body at all would raise a lot more questions than a dead body. Yes, it would be harder to find out what happened. But there would be many more questions about a disappearance than about a body. A dead body could be considered a casualty of a dangerous tournament. A disappearance, when there was no way for this to happen, would have raised questions.

All Moody would have to say is he saw Harry touch the cup and disappear, which would be true. Moody wouldn’t have to concoct a story at all. Though why he didn’t report it sooner might raise questions.

Even more suspicious, as Crouch had offered to put the Cup in the centre of the maze - that was his opportunity to turn it into a Portkey. And, with the knowledge of Voldemort's return, that would raise questions, not at all what Voldemort wanted.

It’s the Reverse Spell effect, not the Levitate and Reverse Spell effect. Spells are very specific, as are their results. It is not safe to say that levitation is part of Priori Incantatem precisely because of the specificity of magic in JKR’s world.

As that is exactly what the spell did in canon, I'm inclined to believe that is what happens when two brother wands aim spells at each other.
In GoF, we see two Prior Incantatem spells involving Harry's wand - and their effects are different, because the circumstances are vastly different. Amos Diggory directly casts the spell "Prior Incanto" at Harry's wand. Harry's wand is inactive in this case, not challenging Diggory's and is not a brother wand to Harry's. The situation in the graveyard is rather different. Nobody casts Prior Incanto - the spell occurs because two brother wands have challenged each other and the spells met in the air. I find it entirely plausible that this would have different effects to Diggory's Prior Incanto spell against an inactive wand.

The world’s most powerful wizard using the world’s most powerful wand? I certainly think it would be possible. And I love that Voldemort claims (twice) that he has removed Harry from DD’s help and protection! More irony, that.

I doubt it. The Elder Wand has its limitations. I doubt that it's possible to turn an object into a portkey when one doesn't even know where that object was. If that were possible, Dumbledore could round up the DEs easily, by turning their masks into Portkeys.
Voldemort did remove Harry from Dumbledore's help in this situation. Harry got himself out of it, through lucky timing and sheer determination in forcing the bead of light towards Voldemort.

Never said that DD was controlling the wands. DD is simply communicating with Harry through Fawkes. And casting a Portus spell.

If that had been the case, I think it would have been clarified at some point.

Didn’t say that DD caused Priori Incantatem or controlled it. But he knew about it’s possibility–which is a big clue that he’s involved, btw. Harry hears in his head–“Don’t break the connection”–when the phoenix song starts. Who’s telling him that? Fawkes? God? The Cosmos? Who’s the only one that knows about Priori Incantatem? Not Harry. Not Voldemort. Dumbledore is the only one involved that knows about Priori Incantatem.

I don't think there's anything to suggest that it was Dumbledore speaking to Harry. It may have been due to his wand, or due to the phoenix song produced by the spell.

He would have strongly suspected it, though, since he believed Snape had gone over to the other side.

But he would have believed that Snape said nothing to Dumbledore once Snape had convinced him that he never changed sides.

He didn’t control the timing of the spells. But when the wands did connect, DD was informed by Fawkes and Fawkes allowed communication between Harry and DD. DD understood that if the wands continued to battle, Priori Incantatem would occur, thus possibly providing a diversion for Harry to get to the Portkey.

I think this requires a degree of telepathy beyond anything we are shown is possible in the series. And, at that, I don't think telepathy is a part of the magic in the HP series. Legilimency is a one-way street, not a willing sharing of thoughts in two directions. Furthermore, if Dumbledore could do all this by telepathy, I imagine he could do other things by telepathy, and would have done - like locating Harry by telepathy and in the first war, using telepathy to look for Voldemort.

All other Portkeys we are shown in the books are timed. The second use of the Triwizard cup as a Portkey, I believe, was also timed, since there is a definite “NOW” coordinating efforts. Though I can understand how it might be read differently.

The portkey in the maze is not timed. It transported the first person, or as happened, people, to touch it. There was no way at all to predict what time it would be reached.

As for the first use of the Triwizard cup being touch activated, that can also be read two ways. The cup was already touch activated–at least to reward full marks, if not to transport the winner to the judges panel. Crouch could simply have added his Portus spell to the original function of the cup to make it transport Harry to the graveyard. That doesn’t necessarily mean there is a different Portus Charm that is touch activated.

The Cup in the maze was a touch-activated portkey. The sensation was described in exactly the same way as the portkey at the World Cup.
Why does it not mean it is touch activated? It transported the first to touch it. There was no way that could have been timed. Crouch says that he turned the Cup into a portkey when he took it into the maze - then, by necessity, it must have been touch activated - he would have had no idea when exactly Harry would reach the centre. Even with his interferences, he couldn't control which paths Harry would choose.

He was in the midst of a highly suspicious competition! One he was deviously and magically entered into against his will and from which, up until that time, he had not suffered any ill affects–which they were expecting due to the circumstance of his inclusion. That Voldemort reincarnates at precisely the moment when Harry has not been seen for over an hour would have DD’s alarm bells going off like crazy.

Which means that dead body or not, Dumbledore would know what had happened, even if he was unable to prove it to Fudge and co.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Even more suspicious, as Crouch had offered to put the Cup in the centre of the maze - that was his opportunity to turn it into a Portkey. And, with the knowledge of Voldemort's return, that would raise questions, not at all what Voldemort wanted.

But this is my point: when Voldemort summons his Death Eaters, DD knows he has reincarnated because Snape tells him. And Karkaroff, headmaster of Durmstrang, flees, abandoning his students. A dead body provides more proof than a missing one. Questions aren’t the problem–answers are.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

As that is exactly what the spell did in canon, I'm inclined to believe that is what happens when two brother wands aim spells at each other.

When DD later explains Priori Incantatem, he doesn’t include levitation as part of the Reverse Spell effect. If that is part of Priori Incantatem, why not?

Originally Posted by FurryDice

In GoF, we see two Prior Incantatem spells involving Harry's wand - and their effects are different, because the circumstances are vastly different. Amos Diggory directly casts the spell "Prior Incanto" at Harry's wand. Harry's wand is inactive in this case, not challenging Diggory's and is not a brother wand to Harry's. The situation in the graveyard is rather different. Nobody casts Prior Incanto - the spell occurs because two brother wands have challenged each other and the spells met in the air. I find it entirely plausible that this would have different effects to Diggory's Prior Incanto spell against an inactive wand.

Why should they be different? There is no reason whatsoever that levitation–so completely different an action from regurgitating previous spells–should suddenly be part of the effect when the original spell doesn’t include such a thing.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I don't think there's anything to suggest that it was Dumbledore speaking to Harry. It may have been due to his wand, or due to the phoenix song produced by the spell.

So it’s easier for you to believe that the words Harry hears comes from Fawkes or inanimate objects rather than from a connection to DD which Harry himself admits he is feeling?

Originally Posted by FurryDice

But he would have believed that Snape said nothing to Dumbledore once Snape had convinced him that he never changed sides.

Voldemort later finds out that Snape did inform DD about being summoned by the Dark Mark because Snape says so. Snape tells LV that he returned to the Dark Lord on Dumbledore’s orders, thereby retaining his value as a double agent.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I think this requires a degree of telepathy beyond anything we are shown is possible in the series. And, at that, I don't think telepathy is a part of the magic in the HP series. Legilimency is a one-way street, not a willing sharing of thoughts in two directions. Furthermore, if Dumbledore could do all this by telepathy, I imagine he could do other things by telepathy, and would have done - like locating Harry by telepathy and in the first war, using telepathy to look for Voldemort.

The telepathy is between Fawkes and DD and occasionally Harry as we are amply shown in Chamber of Secrets when Fawkes shows up with the Sorting Hat and Sword of Gryffindor. It is not telepathy that DD can use to find out everything about everyone as is shown in the books. Since the feathers used in both Harry and Voldemort’s wands are from Fawkes (and he is a magical creature) he senses what is going on and can again link with Harry, and therefore establish a link with DD. It is definitely not out of the realm of the books for this to happen since it happens on several other occasions.

[MerryLore]

[quote=FurryDice;5976412]

I don't think there's anything to suggest that it was Dumbledore speaking to Harry. It may have been due to his wand, or due to the phoenix song produced by the spell.

Harry heard a voice, during the phoenix song, before figures came out of the wand, which told him not to lose the connection. I know of nowhere in canon where birds speak with a human voice, or wands. Dumbledore's phoenix was bonded to him, and the bird had a feather in each wand. The feather has a direct effect on wand behavior, which means priori incantatem may occur if two wands sharing the same core are held by wizards trying to force the wands to battle each other. The other odd thing is that the people who come from the wand know about the portkey being rigged to take Harry back to Hogwarts. I'm thinking the phoenix was aware of the battle, and informed Dumbledore, who was able to communicate somehow through the phoenix.

But he would have believed that Snape said nothing to Dumbledore once Snape had convinced him that he never changed sides.

Crouch was spying on Snape and Karakaroff. At the time of the incident, Voldemort was convinced Snape had changed sides, and said he planned to have him killed. Not only that, he also knew Karkaroff would flee the moment he summoned the DEs. He know both would be at the tournament, and Dumbledore would put two and two together - Voldemort has returned, and Harry is gone.

I think this requires a degree of telepathy beyond anything we are shown is possible in the series.
<snip>
The portkey in the maze is not timed. It transported the first person, or as happened, people, to touch it. There was no way at all to predict what time it would be reached.

I'm thinking it was touch activated as well. Portkeys can only travel to one destination. The portkey that Harry returned to Hogwarts with took him to a different location than the same spot he and Cedric left from. To me, this suggests that someone - perhaps Dumbledore - was able to summon the portkey to his location, re-activating it.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But this is my point: when Voldemort summons his Death Eaters, DD knows he has reincarnated because Snape tells him. And Karkaroff, headmaster of Durmstrang, flees, abandoning his students. A dead body provides more proof than a missing one. Questions aren’t the problem–answers are.

The Ministry would pay far more attention to a missing Harry Potter than to a Harry Potter killed in a competition for which he was underage. Questions are a big problem if Dumbledore is trying to persuade the Ministry that Voldemort is back, and they need to act. If Harry is missing, it lends credibility to the argument. If Harry is dead, Fudge could much more easily convince himself that something in the maze killed him. They would wonder what creature or spell from the maze caused him to disappear - and when it was clear that there was nothing, Dumbledore's warning about Voldemort would have credibility.

When DD later explains Priori Incantatem, he doesn’t include levitation as part of the Reverse Spell effect. If that is part of Priori Incantatem, why not?

But then, why did Sirius not question him on it? Sirius knew of the reverse spell effect, and yet, he did not ask any questions about what had caused them to levitate. And, as they did levitate, there was no need for Dumbledore to prolong the explanation and divert from the flow of Harry's explanation. It would have made it more difficult if he had to work up the strength to start talking about the ordeal again.

Why should they be different? There is no reason whatsoever that levitation–so completely different an action from regurgitating previous spells–should suddenly be part of the effect when the original spell doesn’t include such a thing.

Why shouldn't they be different? Diggory cast the incantation "Prior Incanto" against an inactive wand that was not a brother to his own. Harry and Voldemort did not cast Priori Incantatem. They were casting other spells, in combat against each other, using brother wands. The circumstances are different. It was combat, not a test on a wand.

So it’s easier for you to believe that the words Harry hears comes from Fawkes or inanimate objects rather than from a connection to DD which Harry himself admits he is feeling?

Perhaps from Fawkes. I don't believe that Dumbledore was able to control other people's wands, many miles away through a form of telepathy, especially as there is no such example of telepathy in the series and no suggestion or confirmation that Dumbledore did this.

Voldemort later finds out that Snape did inform DD about being summoned by the Dark Mark because Snape says so. Snape tells LV that he returned to the Dark Lord on Dumbledore’s orders, thereby retaining his value as a double agent.

If Harry had died, he need not have acknowledged that Dumbledore knew anything. With Harry's survival, it would have been plain that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was back.

The telepathy is between Fawkes and DD and occasionally Harry as we are amply shown in Chamber of Secrets when Fawkes shows up with the Sorting Hat and Sword of Gryffindor. It is not telepathy that DD can use to find out everything about everyone as is shown in the books. Since the feathers used in both Harry and Voldemort’s wands are from Fawkes (and he is a magical creature) he senses what is going on and can again link with Harry, and therefore establish a link with DD. It is definitely not out of the realm of the books for this to happen since it happens on several other occasions.

I think it is beyond the magic of the HP series to suggest that Dumbledore can control what happens when Harry's and Voldemort's wands challenge each other. We do not know that Dumbledore sent Fawkes - Fawkes seems to have chosen to go by himself. It does not mean that Dumbledore can sense what is being done with the wand(s) made from Fawkes' feathers - if that were the case, he would have been able to intervene with Voldemort when he was still Tom Riddle and responsible for attacks within the school. I don't think it makes sense for Dumbledore to be able to control anything to do with those wands. The wands have their master, and it is not ther owner of the phoeniix who gave the wand core.


[quote]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Harry heard a voice, during the phoenix song, before figures came out of the wand, which told him not to lose the connection. I know of nowhere in canon where birds speak with a human voice, or wands.

And I know of nowhere in canon where someone can control a wand because their pet gave the wand core. I don't find it plausible in the context of canon.

Dumbledore's phoenix was bonded to him, and the bird had a feather in each wand. The feather has a direct effect on wand behavior, which means priori incantatem may occur if two wands sharing the same core are held by wizards trying to force the wands to battle each other. The other odd thing is that the people who come from the wand know about the portkey being rigged to take Harry back to Hogwarts. I'm thinking the phoenix was aware of the battle, and informed Dumbledore, who was able to communicate somehow through the phoenix.

The people who came from the wand were dead - they would have access to more information than the living. Also, how would Dumbledore be able to instruct those shadows on what to say?

I'm thinking it was touch activated as well. Portkeys can only travel to one destination. The portkey that Harry returned to Hogwarts with took him to a different location than the same spot he and Cedric left from. To me, this suggests that someone - perhaps Dumbledore - was able to summon the portkey to his location, re-activating it.

From that far away, he could turn an object into a portkey? Not knowing where the object was? I don't find it plausible. Dumbledore is powerful, but he does have limits. I find it more likely that Crouch simply never removed the original destination, which was to transport the winner out of the maze and to the crowd.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

And I know of nowhere in canon where someone can control a wand because their pet gave the wand core. I don't find it plausible in the context of canon.

Fawkes is the only example we have in canon where we know the specific creature which gave up it's hair/feather. Heck, Fawkes is the only phoenix in canon. And we know it can communicate with Dumbledore, better than most pets can with with their "owners" (I hate to use that word) - remember when Fudge, Umbridge, etc. are going to arrest DD, and he manages to communicate with Fawkes, who gets him out of Hogwarts?

The people who came from the wand were dead - they would have access to more information than the living. Also, how would Dumbledore be able to instruct those shadows on what to say?

But - they weren't ghosts, trapped inside the wand or summoned by the wand. DD called them "echos" of the people the wand had murdered. It's different from the Resurrection Stone, which actually can bring back the dead, or the ghosts who hang around Hogwarts.

I think it's somehow connected with the phoenix feather inside the wands. The matching feather in each wand recognized each other, and Fawkes somehow made aware, and able to communicate with DD. The "echos" from the wand could not have known about the portkey, since they only knew about previous spells the wand had done, and neither Voldemort nor Harry's wand created the portkey. They had to have been told, and I think it was via the feather, via Fawkes, who received his information from DD. I can think of no other way those echos could have known.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Fawkes is the only example we have in canon where we know the specific creature which gave up it's hair/feather. Heck, Fawkes is the only phoenix in canon. And we know it can communicate with Dumbledore, better than most pets can with with their "owners" (I hate to use that word) - remember when Fudge, Umbridge, etc. are going to arrest DD, and he manages to communicate with Fawkes, who gets him out of Hogwarts?

As there are other wands with phoenix feather cores, Fawkes is not the only phoenix in HP, though he is the only one shown. And even in the even that Dumbledore can communicate with Fawkes, that does not mean that either of them can control the wands made with Fawkes' feathers. It would open up a huge can of worms. And if Dumbledore could control the wands, I think he would have done something about Riddle a long time before the graveyard.

But - they weren't ghosts, trapped inside the wand or summoned by the wand. DD called them "echos" of the people the wand had murdered. It's different from the Resurrection Stone, which actually can bring back the dead, or the ghosts who hang around Hogwarts.

They were echoes of Voldemort's victims, because their murders were the last spells he cast. They were not mouthpieces for Dumbledore.

I think it's somehow connected with the phoenix feather inside the wands. The matching feather in each wand recognized each other, and Fawkes somehow made aware, and able to communicate with DD. The "echos" from the wand could not have known about the portkey, since they only knew about previous spells the wand had done, and neither Voldemort nor Harry's wand created the portkey. They had to have been told, and I think it was via the feather, via Fawkes, who received his information from DD. I can think of no other way those echos could have known.

Why would Fawkes or Dumbledore be able to control anything either of those wands do? How would Dumbledore be able to turn an object into a portkey when he did not even see that object? When he was miles away and did not have a clue where that object was?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

A missing body could also be passed off as a casualty of the tournament–and leave a lot more questions unanswered.

But how? This is not comparable to a human murder mystery because Harry was in a closed course, essentially, with a finite number of obstacles and creatures. Like I said, everything within that maze would have been accounted for, and nothing in the maze, I believe, had the capability to make a student disappear. Hence, I have to feel that any disappearance of a competitor would have to be viewed as foul play.

On the contrary, there are numerous things which are intentionally placed in the maze which have the capability of causing lacerations, bruising and death, so a prepared body would be much less suspicious than a disappearance, I feel, and much easier to pass off as a 'casualty of the tournament.'

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Crouch could easily have asked Harry to move aside or outside of the Three Broomsticks so he could speak to him in private. Given Moody's infamous paranoia, it would be believable. However, in this scenario, Voldemort wouldn't have cared about raising suspicion, and the elaborate set-up as well as the information from the Order suggests that he didn't want to raise suspicions - or at least, not confirm suspicions.

I'm not sure which scenario you mean. I personally believe that Voldemort was attempting to be as discreet as possible.

As for asking Harry to move outside the Three Broomsticks, my point is that he wouldn't be able to do this in Hogsmeade without Hermione or Ron being aware that Harry was going with him, or going to meet with Moody.

Regardless, though, I feel that the main point is that allowing portkeys into Hogwarts would make the anti-Apparition enchantments completely obsolete, even though such a big deal is made of them in the series.

I was joking. I think there would have been no plausible explanation for Harry and the Cup just vanishing into thin air.

Oh, I realize, but whether or not Harry and the cup being eaten would form a convincing alibi is quite a relevant point.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by willfitz

But how? This is not comparable to a human murder mystery because Harry was in a closed course, essentially, with a finite number of obstacles and creatures. Like I said, everything within that maze would have been accounted for, and nothing in the maze, I believe, had the capability to make a student disappear. Hence, I have to feel that any disappearance of a competitor would have to be viewed as foul play.

Perhaps, but we also hear Voldemort telling Nagini he'll be having Harry for food, and while I can see him torturing Harry, i can't see him torturing his favorite pet with an empty promise. He likes to brag how he rewards those who serve him, and I think Nagini fits.

Two other scenes I noticed.

1) When DD chooses which professors he wants to walk around the maze to rescue any student who sends up red sparks, he sends McGonagall, Flitwick, Moody, and Hagrid. I think he normally would have sent Snape instead of Hagrid, but he wanted to keep Snape close to him, because the dark mark was getting darker, and DD knew that harry should not have been entered into the tournament and it was most likely a sign of ill boding. Since the perpetrator had not struck yet, they most likely would at this 3rd event. I think he put Voldemort and perp together, but he didn't know who the betrayer was at Hogwarts.

2) When Harry and Sirius are sitting in DD's office and Harry is telling them what happened, Fawkes is sitting on Harry's lap and comforting him. To me, this is a clue that Fawkes knew what happened, and most likely DD did as well.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by willfitz

But how? This is not comparable to a human murder mystery because Harry was in a closed course, essentially, with a finite number of obstacles and creatures. Like I said, everything within that maze would have been accounted for, and nothing in the maze, I believe, had the capability to make a student disappear. Hence, I have to feel that any disappearance of a competitor would have to be viewed as foul play.

On the contrary, there are numerous things which are intentionally placed in the maze which have the capability of causing lacerations, bruising and death, so a prepared body would be much less suspicious than a disappearance, I feel, and much easier to pass off as a 'casualty of the tournament.'

I agree. A body could be explained away as a casualty of the tournament - especially by Fudge, determined to ignore the dangers. Even Fudge would have to consider the implications of an unexplained disappearance. The Ministry and the wizarding world would be on their guard. Whereas a death would be acknowledged as tragic, but passed off as a consequence of the tournament - much as the Ministry did with Cedric's death. He was killed by an Avada Kedavra, but it was passed off as something that happened in the tournament.

I'm not sure which scenario you mean. I personally believe that Voldemort was attempting to be as discreet as possible.

I agree, Voldemort wanted to be as discreet as possible. That's why he didn't just get Crouch Jr. to Apparate or Portkey Harry away from Hogsmeade. If he didn't care about maintaining secrecy, he could easily have ordered Crouch to kidnap Harry long before the Third Task.

As for asking Harry to move outside the Three Broomsticks, my point is that he wouldn't be able to do this in Hogsmeade without Hermione or Ron being aware that Harry was going with him, or going to meet with Moody.

Harry would be there with his friends, yes. But given Moody's reputation for paranoia, Crouch could easily have asked to speak to Harry alone. But then, in this scenario, Voldemort wouldn't have been bothered about keeping his return quiet, as he was in canon.

Regardless, though, I feel that the main point is that allowing portkeys into Hogwarts would make the anti-Apparition enchantments completely obsolete, even though such a big deal is made of them in the series.

Perhaps. I think that the Cup was charmed into a Portkey to take the winner to the crowd outside the maze. And as Crouch was able to turn the cup into a Portkey to take Harry to the graveyard instead, it raises the question of how he was able to do so.

Oh, I realize, but whether or not Harry and the cup being eaten would form a convincing alibi is quite a relevant point.

I think there would have been some signs if one of the creatures in the maze had eaten a person. And especially if they had bizarrely decided to chomp down on a metallic object for dessert. Especially an object turned into a portkey.

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Perhaps, but we also hear Voldemort telling Nagini he'll be having Harry for food, and while I can see him torturing Harry, i can't see him torturing his favorite pet with an empty promise. He likes to brag how he rewards those who serve him, and I think Nagini fits.

Or, perhaps it was a taunt directed at Wormtail. Voldemort says that he will not be feeding Wormtail to Nagini after all - right there is an empty promise, he didn't give Nagini the meal he had told her she would get. To Nagini, I imagine one human she is permitted to eat is as good as any other.

1) When DD chooses which professors he wants to walk around the maze to rescue any student who sends up red sparks, he sends McGonagall, Flitwick, Moody, and Hagrid. I think he normally would have sent Snape instead of Hagrid, but he wanted to keep Snape close to him, because the dark mark was getting darker, and DD knew that harry should not have been entered into the tournament and it was most likely a sign of ill boding. Since the perpetrator had not struck yet, they most likely would at this 3rd event. I think he put Voldemort and perp together, but he didn't know who the betrayer was at Hogwarts.

Perhaps. Or, perhaps he sent Hagrid because Hagrid was familiar with magical creatures, and had supplied some of them for the maze. He would know how to deal with them. Nor would Hagrid be dismissive of a distressed champion or ignore a problem.
And, Dumbledore keeping Snape close does not mean that Dumbledore somehow controlled the events in the graveyard through a type of magic not shown or mentioned in the series.

2) When Harry and Sirius are sitting in DD's office and Harry is telling them what happened, Fawkes is sitting on Harry's lap and comforting him. To me, this is a clue that Fawkes knew what happened, and most likely DD did as well.

I don't think Dumbledore already knew the details - his gleam of triumph at the news of Voldemort taking Harry's blood was an uncontrolled reaction, which was quickly gone. I think Fawkes is perceptive and can tell that Harry is distressed. I find it more plausible than Fawkes and Dumbledore already knowing everything. Fawkes does not have control over what is done with his feather. If Fawkes could control what was done with his feather, Voldemort would never have been able to do what he did. I don't find it plausible that Fawkes can control anything that happens with those wands, and even less plausible that Dumbledore can.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Or, perhaps it was a taunt directed at Wormtail. Voldemort says that he will not be feeding Wormtail to Nagini after all - right there is an empty promise, he didn't give Nagini the meal he had told her she would get. To Nagini, I imagine one human she is permitted to eat is as good as any other.

Voldemort made the comment about not feeding Wormtail to Nagini to his DE's and to Wormtail, and therefore not an empty promise to her. Nagini most likely does not speak human. However, Voldemort told Nagini directly that she would be dining on Harry, because she kept circling. Harry understands Parseltongue.

Perhaps. Or, perhaps he sent Hagrid because Hagrid was familiar with magical creatures, and had supplied some of them for the maze. He would know how to deal with them. Nor would Hagrid be dismissive of a distressed champion or ignore a problem.

Possibly.

And, Dumbledore keeping Snape close does not mean that Dumbledore somehow controlled the events in the graveyard through a type of magic not shown or mentioned in the series.

To me, he wants Snape close because of the dark mark on Snape's arm. Snape would tell him immediately when Voldemort summoned him.

I don't think Dumbledore already knew the details - his gleam of triumph at the news of Voldemort taking Harry's blood was an uncontrolled reaction, which was quickly gone.

Fawkes and DD would have only known when the wands clashed, and nothing that happened before, I think.

Maybe DD simply said, "Accio Triwizard Cup" once Harry touched it?

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Voldemort made the comment about not feeding Wormtail to Nagini to his DE's and to Wormtail, and therefore not an empty promise to her. Nagini most likely does not speak human. However, Voldemort told Nagini directly that she would be dining on Harry, because she kept circling. Harry understands Parseltongue.

Perhaps he has already told Nagini that Wormtail would be a snack for her. His wording seems to suggest this.

To me, he wants Snape close because of the dark mark on Snape's arm. Snape would tell him immediately when Voldemort summoned him.

Probably. It still doesn't mean Dumbledore was able to control what went on in the graveyard in an unexplained type of magic that is neither shown nor discussed in the series.

Fawkes and DD would have only known when the wands clashed, and nothing that happened before, I think.

I still don't think they would know any such thing. Neither Fawkes nor Dumbledore knew what Voldemort was doing with his wand during his campaign of terror in the first war, and prior to that, at school. Dumbledore refers to the opening of the Chamber as the culmination of a series of attacks and unpleasant events that young Riddle could nver be linked to in school. I don't think this would be the case if Fawkes knew what his feather was being used for.

Maybe DD simply said, "Accio Triwizard Cup" once Harry touched it?

The Summoning Spell does not teleport objects. They move through the air. Harry was not magically dragged cross-country, airborne from Little Hangleton to Hogwarts. The return to Hogwarts was consistent with a Portkey, as described at the World Cup and the portkey leaving the maze. Also, I don't find it plausible for Dumbledore to know what was going on. If he did, he would have gone there himself.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

The Ministry would pay far more attention to a missing Harry Potter than to a Harry Potter killed in a competition for which he was underage. Questions are a big problem if Dumbledore is trying to persuade the Ministry that Voldemort is back, and they need to act. If Harry is missing, it lends credibility to the argument. If Harry is dead, Fudge could much more easily convince himself that something in the maze killed him. They would wonder what creature or spell from the maze caused him to disappear - and when it was clear that there was nothing, Dumbledore's warning about Voldemort would have credibility.

There is no indication in the text that Voldemort planned to return Harry’s body to the maze. There is, in fact, evidence that he was going to let Nagini eat him. A body dead of an AK, when no wand in the immediate vicinity would show use of an AK, would also lead to questions.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

But then, why did Sirius not question him on it? Sirius knew of the reverse spell effect, and yet, he did not ask any questions about what had caused them to levitate. And, as they did levitate, there was no need for Dumbledore to prolong the explanation and divert from the flow of Harry's explanation. It would have made it more difficult if he had to work up the strength to start talking about the ordeal again.

Sirius didn’t question it because neither Harry or DD mentioned to him that the levitation had occurred.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Why shouldn't they be different? Diggory cast the incantation "Prior Incanto" against an inactive wand that was not a brother to his own. Harry and Voldemort did not cast Priori Incantatem. They were casting other spells, in combat against each other, using brother wands. The circumstances are different. It was combat, not a test on a wand.

The spells cast in battle were Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra–neither of which have elements of levitation. The Reverse Spell effect does just that–displays spells a wand has made in reverse order. Spells are very specific. If you can find a spell that has more than one effect when it is cast, I will definitely consider your argument.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Perhaps from Fawkes. I don't believe that Dumbledore was able to control other people's wands, many miles away through a form of telepathy, especially as there is no such example of telepathy in the series and no suggestion or confirmation that Dumbledore did this.

Again–I’ve not said that DD was controlling either Harry’s or Voldemort’s wands.

There are at least three examples of Fawkes’ telepathy. One with Harry–Fawkes shows up to rescue him in the Chamber of Secrets. Two with DD: 1) without any physical or verbal indication to Fawkes that DD is leaving his office when Fudge tries to arrest him, the bird starts flying about the room and at the perfect instant flies low enough for DD to grab hold of a tail feather and 2) Fawkes instantly appears in front of DD to take Voldemort’s AK.

I will entertain any argument you can come up with to explain how Fawkes knows what is going on that doesn’t include telepathy. Just saying it ain’t so does not constitute evidence.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

If Harry had died, he need not have acknowledged that Dumbledore knew anything. With Harry's survival, it would have been plain that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was back.

DD knew Voldemort was back before Harry returned because Snape told him.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I think it is beyond the magic of the HP series to suggest that Dumbledore can control what happens when Harry's and Voldemort's wands challenge each other.

Again. DD was not controlling the wands. He was simply aware, through Fawkes, what was going on and performed a couple of spells from a distance using the power of the Elder Wand.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

We do not know that Dumbledore sent Fawkes - Fawkes seems to have chosen to go by himself.

Didn’t say DD sent Fawkes. Fawkes sensed what was going on with the wands made from his tail feathers and alerted DD. Then the phoenix facilitated communication between Harry and DD.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

It does not mean that Dumbledore can sense what is being done with the wand(s) made from Fawkes' feathers - if that were the case, he would have been able to intervene with Voldemort when he was still Tom Riddle and responsible for attacks within the school. I don't think it makes sense for Dumbledore to be able to control anything to do with those wands. The wands have their master, and it is not ther owner of the phoeniix who gave the wand core.

Once again, DD is not controlling the phoenix core wands. According to my theory, he casts a spell to move the combatants away from the cup, he tells Harry not to break the connection between the wands, he casts a Portus Charm to turn the cup into a Portkey (which is how the James echo knows what to tell Harry), and then times it so that Harry can run back to Cedric’s body and Portkey back to Hogwarts.

Originally Posted by MerryLore

I think it's somehow connected with the phoenix feather inside the wands. The matching feather in each wand recognized each other, and Fawkes somehow made aware, and able to communicate with DD. The "echos" from the wand could not have known about the portkey, since they only knew about previous spells the wand had done, and neither Voldemort nor Harry's wand created the portkey. They had to have been told, and I think it was via the feather, via Fawkes, who received his information from DD. I can think of no other way those echos could have known.

I agree. Like ghosts and portraits–which are not omniscient either–these echos are not actually the dead called back. It seems only the dead that have “moved on” and then come back have the ability to know everything that is going on. (I don’t think ghosts are omniscient for the simple fact that the Hogwarts ghosts would have known everything that DD and Snape were planning, not something DD would want, nor did any ghost display such knowledge.)

DD says that these echos only retain the appearance and character of their owners. I cannot see any other way for these echos to know about the Portkey.

Originally Posted by willfitz

But how? This is not comparable to a human murder mystery because Harry was in a closed course, essentially, with a finite number of obstacles and creatures. Like I said, everything within that maze would have been accounted for, and nothing in the maze, I believe, had the capability to make a student disappear. Hence, I have to feel that any disappearance of a competitor would have to be viewed as foul play.

How has everything in the maze been accounted for? We only see what obstacles Harry encountered. The maze was nearly the entire area of a Quidditch pitch which would make the list a bit more extensive. I think magic badly performed has been cause for accidents in the past, including disappearances, so it need not strictly be an obstacle that is to blame.

From the info in Flesh, Blood and Bone, The Death Eaters, and Priori Incantatem, LV was going to AK Harry and feed him to Nagini. But lets say LV did want to return the body. How is a body dead of an Unforgivable Curse, arm oddly sliced up with a knife (a very distinctive wound, btw) and possibly mangled by a poisonous snake (which I don't think was on the obstacle list) not going to raise questions?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Regardless, though, I feel that the main point is that allowing portkeys into Hogwarts would make the anti-Apparition enchantments completely obsolete, even though such a big deal is made of them in the series.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Perhaps he has already told Nagini that Wormtail would be a snack for her. His wording seems to suggest this.

I’m afraid I can’t find any place where LV suggests feeding Wormtail to Nagini–I’d appreciate a reference. When he talks of killing Harry, however, it’s quite clear he intends to make him a meal for Nagini:

GoF: The Death Eaters “...And I am now going to prove my power by killing him (Harry), here and now, in front of you all, when there is no Dumbledore to help him, and no mother to die for him. I will give him his chance. He will be allowed to fight, and you will be left in no doubt which of us is the stronger. Just a little longer, Nagini," he whispered, and the snake glided away through the grass to where the Death Eaters stood watching.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Good point! How does DD get there? With his skills and and the power of the EW, I think he could Apparate great distances-farther than most wizards-but there are still limits. Also I think you need to know where you are Apparating to. I suspect DD wasn't able to ascertain where Harry was.

If Dumbledore was able to make magical changes at a distance, he should have been able to know where Harry was. In any case, if Fawkes knew, he could have transported Dumbledore there. Failing that Fawkes could have gone there himself and helped Harry escape. Forget the cup, just "break the connection and grab Fawkes who's waiting right next to you".

In OotP we see DD create 2 portkeys, both of which are timed. He is extraordinarily adept at getting the timing right. He knew how far he had moved them away from their original position and took a best guess.

Dumbledore is guessing here right to the exact second; I find that highly unlikely. If Harry reached early, he'd be waiting for the portkey to activate which gives time for Voldemort to kill him. If he reached late, the cup's gone without him.

Actually, there is only one type-timed. The so-called "touch activated" Portkeys, the ones DD makes in OotP are also timed. Reread carefully. The travelers are all touching the Portkey as DD counts down.

The Cup was based on touch. There was no way Crouch could predict the exact second, Harry was going to touch it.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Dumbledore is guessing here right to the exact second; I find that highly unlikely. If Harry reached early, he'd be waiting for the portkey to activate which gives time for Voldemort to kill him. If he reached late, the cup's gone without him.

But we have two examples of him guessing to the exact last three seconds (the Portkey to Grimmauld Place and the Portkey to his office) so why not the exact second?

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

If Dumbledore was able to make magical changes at a distance, he should have been able to know where Harry was.

Why? If his senses are limited to what he can hear through Fawkes, how does he know where Harry's location is?

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

In any case, if Fawkes knew, he could have transported Dumbledore there.

Could he? We know Apparation is limited by distance, though I'm not sure what Fawkes does could be considered Apparation.

Does Fawkes know Harry's actual location, or can he just hear what's going on and connect DD? Distance seems to be a factor in how magic operates.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Failing that Fawkes could have gone there himself and helped Harry escape. Forget the cup, just "break the connection and grab Fawkes who's waiting right next to you".

But then why wasn't that a solution in Chamber of Secrets? Why isn't that a solution at the end of every book?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

1) When DD chooses which professors he wants to walk around the maze to rescue any student who sends up red sparks, he sends McGonagall, Flitwick, Moody, and Hagrid. I think he normally would have sent Snape instead of Hagrid, but he wanted to keep Snape close to him, because the dark mark was getting darker, and DD knew that harry should not have been entered into the tournament and it was most likely a sign of ill boding.

I think that your point is good, but I would also point out that, from a public and official standpoint, the set of professors sent by Dumbledore was, objectively, the most logical. He sent the Transfigurations, Charms, DADA and Care of Creatures professors, and not the Potions master.

2) When Harry and Sirius are sitting in DD's office and Harry is telling them what happened, Fawkes is sitting on Harry's lap and comforting him. To me, this is a clue that Fawkes knew what happened, and most likely DD did as well.

Frankly, I think that Fawkes was included in the scene just to tie together the twin wands nicely.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

If Dumbledore was able to make magical changes at a distance, he should have been able to know where Harry was. In any case, if Fawkes knew, he could have transported Dumbledore there. Failing that Fawkes could have gone there himself and helped Harry escape. Forget the cup, just "break the connection and grab Fawkes who's waiting right next to you".

This is a very good point, and really, I feel, puts a hole in the notion of Dumbledore being involved.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

How has everything in the maze been accounted for?

I meant from the point of view of the characters in the book. Everything has been accounted for because there is nothing in the maze which has not been put there by the Triwizard panel.

We only see what obstacles Harry encountered. The maze was nearly the entire area of a Quidditch pitch which would make the list a bit more extensive. I think magic badly performed has been cause for accidents in the past, including disappearances, so it need not strictly be an obstacle that is to blame.

How so? A broken cabinet which initially was used for teleportation is the only example we have of anything magical which can cause accidental disapperarance.

From the info in Flesh, Blood and Bone, The Death Eaters, and Priori Incantatem, LV was going to AK Harry and feed him to Nagini. But lets say LV did want to return the body. How is a body dead of an Unforgivable Curse, arm oddly sliced up with a knife (a very distinctive wound, btw) and possibly mangled by a poisonous snake (which I don't think was on the obstacle list) not going to raise questions?

Because the maze was rife with sharp objects and claws and vicious, venomous animals! Now, they might not be able to fully explain how the injuries came about, but I would be willing to bet that a corpse, mangled as such, would be much less likely than a disappearance to arouse suspicion that Harry had, at any time, been removed from the maze. On the one hand, you have evidence which suggests that Harry came under attack by creatures and sharp objects- fairly plausible given what was in the maze- and on the other hand, you have evidence that something has removed Harry from the maze completely- this time, I feel that there is nothing in the maze which could explain it, and so naturally suspicion would be at a much higher level of some sort of evil plot.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbrother
If Dumbledore was able to make magical changes at a distance, he should have been able to know where Harry was. In any case, if Fawkes knew, he could have transported Dumbledore there. Failing that Fawkes could have gone there himself and helped Harry escape. Forget the cup, just "break the connection and grab Fawkes who's waiting right next to you".

This is a very good point, and really, I feel, puts a hole in the notion of Dumbledore being involved.

I don’t see any legitimate holes. How is it that being able to cast spells at a distance means that DD should know specifically where Harry is? Or Fawkes for that matter? Distance does affect magic, after all.

I can understand that my theory might have a few shaky suppositions–though there is no textual reference specifically refuting them–but I’ve seen nothing else that explains the odd goings-on:

Why are Harry and Voldemort levitated away from the cup when the wands connect? It is not an effect of Priori Incantatem.

When the phoenix song starts Harry feels connected to DD and hears “Don’t break the connection.” Who is communicating with Harry and how?

How do the echos know the cup is a Portkey?

Pick apart every point of my scenario to your heart’s content, but at the same time I would like to see someone’s explanation of what’s happening here. If there is a logical explanation for all of these events and how they are related to one another, I’d gladly entertain an alternative theory.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I don’t see any legitimate holes. How is it that being able to cast spells at a distance means that DD should know specifically where Harry is? Or Fawkes for that matter? Distance does affect magic, after all.

Well, I think that it is an assumption on the basis that all magic requires intense concentration on the goal, and that not being able to visualize the target might make that rather difficult. This is a natural assumption for me.

Why are Harry and Voldemort levitated away from the cup when the wands connect? It is not an effect of Priori Incantatem.

Well, speaking of un-refuted, shaky suppositions, there is no real reason for this not to be simply an unmentioned effect of priori incantatem.

When the phoenix song starts Harry feels connected to DD and hears “Don’t break the connection.” Who is communicating with Harry and how?

He does not hear "don't break the connection." This is a misread. Rather, it is 'almost like' someone is saying it to him. To me, it just indicates that Harry was drawing strength and determination from the comforting noise.

How do the echos know the cup is a Portkey?

Throughout the lifetime of this thread, I think I've considered many possibilities, not the least of which is that the echoes are omniscient. It could also be that they have a connection to the knowledge of Voldemort, and thus if Voldemort knew that the cup was Harry's escape, then the echoes would too.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, I think that it is an assumption on the basis that all magic requires intense concentration on the goal, and that not being able to visualize the target might make that rather difficult. This is a natural assumption for me.

I think DD knew the cup was in the vicinity and what it looked like. I’m not sure he would have to see the actual cup lying there to cast the spell on it. But that could be a legitimate problem with the theory. Unless I can find an example to support it.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, speaking of un-refuted, shaky suppositions, there is no real reason for this not to be simply an unmentioned effect of priori incantatem.

And there is no real reason for this to be an effect of Priori Incantatem either. In fact the odds that it isn’t holds closer to how magic works in JKR’s world.

And I recall reading in your previous posts that spells were very, very specific–that the Portus charm could not be touch activated because all the other instances were timed (hence the use of your “timer” spell, which I thought quite elegant, btw.) Have you changed your mind on spell specificity?

Originally Posted by willfitz

He does not hear "don't break the connection." This is a misread. Rather, it is 'almost like' someone is saying it to him. To me, it just indicates that Harry was drawing strength and determination from the comforting noise.

And I read it as telepathy–the song and the words felt like they were inside him. The word are italicized, as thoughts usually are:

Gof: Priori Incatatem He felt as though the song were inside him instead of just around him....It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear.... Don't break the connection.

But where is this information coming from and why? I hear folks disregarding my interpretation, but I’m not hearing anything to explain it.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Throughout the lifetime of this thread, I think I've considered many possibilities, not the least of which is that the echoes are omniscient. It could also be that they have a connection to the knowledge of Voldemort, and thus if Voldemort knew that the cup was Harry's escape, then the echoes would too.

But if Voldemort knows Harry can escape using the cup, why doesn’t he prevent it? He has ample time to do so.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

There is no indication in the text that Voldemort planned to return Harry’s body to the maze. There is, in fact, evidence that he was going to let Nagini eat him. A body dead of an AK, when no wand in the immediate vicinity would show use of an AK, would also lead to questions.

Cedric's didn't.

Sirius didn’t question it because neither Harry or DD mentioned to him that the levitation had occurred.

Sirius was present when Harry recounted everything that had happened from the moment he touched the portkey. I think that would have included the Priori Incantatem levitating them both.

The spells cast in battle were Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra–neither of which have elements of levitation. The Reverse Spell effect does just that–displays spells a wand has made in reverse order. Spells are very specific. If you can find a spell that has more than one effect when it is cast, I will definitely consider your argument.

If there is any other example of brother wands causing Priori Incantatem, I will consider the argument that they do not isolate the users in this way.

Again–I’ve not said that DD was controlling either Harry’s or Voldemort’s wands.

Just that he knew what they were doing. If he could tell what Riddle's wand was doing while he was still in Hogwarts, he would have acted against him.

Again. DD was not controlling the wands. He was simply aware, through Fawkes, what was going on and performed a couple of spells from a distance using the power of the Elder Wand.

The Elder Wand is not invincible. I doubt it can perform spells on unseen objects in an unknown location. If it could, Dumbledore would have used it long before to apprehend Voldemort.

Didn’t say DD sent Fawkes. Fawkes sensed what was going on with the wands made from his tail feathers and alerted DD. Then the phoenix facilitated communication between Harry and DD.

How? Fawkes never gives any indication of knowing what use his feather is being put to. He never raised any objection to his feather being used for years of torture and murder.

Once again, DD is not controlling the phoenix core wands. According to my theory, he casts a spell to move the combatants away from the cup, he tells Harry not to break the connection between the wands, he casts a Portus Charm to turn the cup into a Portkey (which is how the James echo knows what to tell Harry), and then times it so that Harry can run back to Cedric’s body and Portkey back to Hogwarts.

And I do not see how he is able to do that. Such magic is never mentioned in the series, never even suggested.

DD says that these echos only retain the appearance and character of their owners. I cannot see any other way for these echos to know about the Portkey.

Cedric was able to ask Harry to return his body to Hogwarts. Frank knows that Voldemort killed him - even though he no longer looks like he did when he killed Frank. I think it possible that these shadows do know more than they knew at the time of their deaths.

From the info in Flesh, Blood and Bone, The Death Eaters, and Priori Incantatem, LV was going to AK Harry and feed him to Nagini. But lets say LV did want to return the body. How is a body dead of an Unforgivable Curse, arm oddly sliced up with a knife (a very distinctive wound, btw) and possibly mangled by a poisonous snake (which I don't think was on the obstacle list) not going to raise questions?

Cedric died of an Avada Kedavra, and it did not raise questions, the Ministry quickly dismissed it as an accident occurring during the tournament. I can easily see them doing the same if Harry had died of the Killing Curse.

I’m afraid I can’t find any place where LV suggests feeding Wormtail to Nagini–I’d appreciate a reference. When he talks of killing Harry, however, it’s quite clear he intends to make him a meal for Nagini:

Certainly:

GoF, Chapter 29 "Nagini," said the cold voice "you are out of luck. I will not be feeding Wormtail to you, after all...but never mind, never mind... there is still Harry Potter... " The snake hissed. Harry could see its tongue fluttering.

"After all" indicates that Voldemort did promise Wormtail to Nagini before this. For Nagini, eating one human is probably much the same as eating any other. It seem she doesn't care as long as she has someone to eat.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

If Dumbledore was able to make magical changes at a distance, he should have been able to know where Harry was. In any case, if Fawkes knew, he could have transported Dumbledore there. Failing that Fawkes could have gone there himself and helped Harry escape. Forget the cup, just "break the connection and grab Fawkes who's waiting right next to you".

I agree. If Fawkes knew such a thing, he could have transported Dumbledore to the graveyard rather than playing games.

The Cup was based on touch. There was no way Crouch could predict the exact second, Harry was going to touch it.

Definitely not. And under Veritaserum, he admits to turning it into a Portkey when he took it to the maze before the task began.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But we have two examples of him guessing to the exact last three seconds (the Portkey to Grimmauld Place and the Portkey to his office) so why not the exact second?

In those instances, Dumbledore was present with both the portkey object and the person/people to use it. None of whom were running for their lives. There was no guesswork involved. It's vastly different from turning an unseen object in an unknown location into a portkey.

Why? If his senses are limited to what he can hear through Fawkes, how does he know where Harry's location is?

Then how does he know where the Portkey is?

Could he? We know Apparation is limited by distance, though I'm not sure what Fawkes does could be considered Apparation.

No, as he is able to teleport Dumbledore out of Hogwarts despite the anti-Apparation spells.

Does Fawkes know Harry's actual location, or can he just hear what's going on and connect DD? Distance seems to be a factor in how magic operates.

Why would Fawkes be able to hear what's going on and tell Dumbledore? Fawkes does not know what is being done with his feathers.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Frankly, I think that Fawkes was included in the scene just to tie together the twin wands nicely.

Makes sense.

Because the maze was rife with sharp objects and claws and vicious, venomous animals! Now, they might not be able to fully explain how the injuries came about, but I would be willing to bet that a corpse, mangled as such, would be much less likely than a disappearance to arouse suspicion that Harry had, at any time, been removed from the maze. On the one hand, you have evidence which suggests that Harry came under attack by creatures and sharp objects- fairly plausible given what was in the maze- and on the other hand, you have evidence that something has removed Harry from the maze completely- this time, I feel that there is nothing in the maze which could explain it, and so naturally suspicion would be at a much higher level of some sort of evil plot.

Agree. A violent death would be believed to be a consequence of the tournament, as Cedric's was. A disappearance, especially of the most famous child in the country, would raise numerous questions, and make the Ministry far more inclined to listen to Dumbledore's warning about Voldemort's return.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I don’t see any legitimate holes. How is it that being able to cast spells at a distance means that DD should know specifically where Harry is? Or Fawkes for that matter? Distance does affect magic, after all.

Yes, distance does affect magic. Which is part of why I find it implausible for Dumbledore to turn an object he cannot see and cannot locate into a portkey.

Why are Harry and Voldemort levitated away from the cup when the wands connect? It is not an effect of Priori Incantatem.

How can anyone say for certain that it is not an effect of Priori Incantatem?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, speaking of un-refuted, shaky suppositions, there is no real reason for this not to be simply an unmentioned effect of priori incantatem.

I agree. As this is the only time in the series brother wands cause Priori Incantatem, I see no reason to believe that it is not just a part of the effect. We never before or again see brother wands challenging each other.

He does not hear "don't break the connection." This is a misread. Rather, it is 'almost like' someone is saying it to him. To me, it just indicates that Harry was drawing strength and determination from the comforting noise.

I agree. Phoenix song is shown to have an effect on the emotions. In CoS, it's "spine-tingling and unearthly". In HBP, it's a heartfelt lament. I think the music meant hope to Harry, and I think it's possible that it occurred because of the feathers at the core of their wands. However, I don't find it plausible that Fawkes knows what is being done with his feathers. Dumbledore would have stepped in and done something about Riddle while he was still in school, if that were possible.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I think DD knew the cup was in the vicinity and what it looked like. I’m not sure he would have to see the actual cup lying there to cast the spell on it. But that could be a legitimate problem with the theory. Unless I can find an example to support it.

I think that is a problem - Dumbledore did not know where the cup was. I don't see how he could know the vicinity of the cup when he did not know where Harry was.

And there is no real reason for this to be an effect of Priori Incantatem either. In fact the odds that it isn’t holds closer to how magic works in JKR’s world.

Why not? The graveyard is the only example of two brother wands causing the Priori Incantatem effect. Therefore, I think the most straightforward explanation is that combative brother wands produce this effect. There is never any suggestion that Dumbledore did so.

But if Voldemort knows Harry can escape using the cup, why doesn’t he prevent it? He has ample time to do so.

Because Voldemort, in his arrogance, doesn't expect Harry to get to the Cup. Because his solutions to problems are "Kill it" not think outside the box. Perhaps because he doesnt see the cup - his attention is completely focused on Harry.
Or, he may not be aware that Crouch did not remove the original portkey destination of the stands outside the maze.