Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Just as Harry literally tells the music “I know,” he literally perceives the words in his head “Don’t break the connection.” If the intent is only for him to feel comfort, there is no need for JRK to include words at all–she can just describe the sensations. The fact that the words “Don’t break the connection” are not words of comfort but those of instruction also indicate their literal reality and, I believe, the evidence of another mind behind them.

Well, no, 'don't break the connection' is not the first thing that comes to mind in terms of words of comfort, if you were to push it out of context completely; but of course, in the context, it makes perfect sense. Harry holding on to the connection caused a phoenix song generated by the cores of the wand which made him feel extremely comforted, and so it makes sense that that would lead to an assertion within Harry's mind that he ought not to let go. It might as well have been his own voice he was answering.

[DenverWagner]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

My hypothesis is that DD, using the power of the Elder Wand and the connection provided by Fawkes, is the one that moves Harry and LV. Why? So that he can cast the Portus charm on the Triwizard cup and no one will see the blue flash or hear it rattle as the spell is effected.

I believe you're reaching, IMO. I just don't see how Dumbledore could have done it. I, for one, always take Harry's interactions with dead people with a grain of salt. They can be true echoes of dead loved ones, but I believe what they say actually comes entirely from Harry's mind - his unconscious, if you will. I'm including the whole dialogue in limbo. I think there is nothing in that conversation that Harry couldn't have concluded or inferred by himself. And, like a dream, that vision only serves to bring home his unconscious reasoning.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Since the Triwizard cup is the only one that doesn’t act like all the other Portkeys that we are shown, it is likely an exception. JKR could have shown Portkeys operating with slight differences in the books following GoF, but she does not. I think that is intentional and the seeming “touch-activated” Portkey that the TWC becomes has to be explained another way.

But isn't the Portkey Dumbledore makes in the Ministry also touch-activated? The one he produces out of the severed head of the male statue?

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Apparently they reuse the same Triwizard cup for each competition. If it were simply a winner’s trophy, why don’t the winners get to keep it?

Because they're all dead? Hasn't the Triwizard Tournament being on break for centuries?

Originally Posted by mirrormere

It has been posited on this thread, and I agree, that for the cup to transport the winner of the tournament to the judges, the restrictions in place around Hogwarts on magical travel had to be lifted and that is the reason LV had to wait for the final task and the use of the Triwizard cup. No, I haven’t found concrete references to absolutely confirm this other than the restriction on Apparation. That Draco had to use the Vanishing cabinets to get his DE comrades into Hogwarts suggests all other forms of transport were restricted without DD’s permission, or why bother with the cabinets?

Maybe Portkey rules apply different to the grounds, as opposed to the castle? Or maybe to a Portkey that already is in the grounds? Or maybe the stricter rules regarding Portkeys were only put into place after OotP? Because Dumbledore Portkeys Harry into his office after the battle in the Ministry...

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, no, 'don't break the connection' is not the first thing that comes to mind in terms of words of comfort, if you were to push it out of context completely; but of course, in the context, it makes perfect sense. Harry holding on to the connection caused a phoenix song generated by the cores of the wand which made him feel extremely comforted, and so it makes sense that that would lead to an assertion within Harry's mind that he ought not to let go. It might as well have been his own voice he was answering.

That sounds feasible. It's also possible that Harry was tuning into information from his own wand, guiding Harry's efforts to overtake Voldemort's wand. In DH, Ollivander says this about the relationship between wizard & wand:

"Oh, yes, if you are any wizard at all you will be able to channel your magic through almost any instrument. The best results, however, must always come where there is the strongest affinity between wizard and wand. These connections are complex. An initial attracton, then a mutual quest for experience, the wand learning from the wizard, the wizard from the wand."

Originally Posted by mirrormere

If Sirius understands Priori Incantatem, why doesn’t he know that the wands would have to share the same core in order to connect?

Because they're two different things. Sirius is only familiar with a normal Priori spell.

Priori Incantatem is a spell that makes a wand show what spells had been cast with it. In GOF when Crouch Sr. finds Winky, he places his wand tip to tip to Harry's and says "priori incantato". In DH, Harry tells Hermione that Voldemort will know the Phoenix wand is broken because they'll use Priori Incantatem on Hermione's wand (left behind at the Malfoys').

The connection was caused by forcing two wands with cores from the same source to duel against each other at the same time. The spells each of them cast met in midair, which is when they connected. This effect is completely separate from the Priori Incantatem, which in the graveyard only happens after Harry forces the flow of energy back into Voldemort's wand.

[DenverWagner]

Hedgwig, but the previous poster stressed that Sirius calls Priori Incantatem an effect, and not a charm. He does not sound to be talking about the Priori Incantato spell, but the effect that happens when two sister wands meet.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by DenverWagner

Hedgwig, but the previous poster stressed that Sirius calls Priori Incantatem an effect, and not a charm. He does not sound to be talking about the Priori Incantato spell, but the effect that happens when two sister wands meet.

He didn't know why they connected. Page 696, GOF US Edition:
"The wands connected?" he said, looking from Harry to Dumbledore. "Why?"


Also, more importantly, I just found an interesting quote on Page 694 of GOF US Edition (Dumbledore talking to Harry):

"I need to know what happened after you touched the Portkey in the maze, Harry."

So it appears that Dumbledore expected the Cup to be a Portkey.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Also, more importantly, I just found an interesting quote on Page 694 of GOF US Edition (Dumbledore talking to Harry):

"I need to know what happened after you touched the Portkey in the maze, Harry."

So it appears that Dumbledore expected the Cup to be a Portkey.

Dumbledore had just heard Barty Jnr say "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner. Turned it into a Portkey." So when he asked Harry, he already knew it was a Portkey. However the way Barty says it, it sounds as though the Cup wasn't a Portkey before he put the spell on it. Of course that doesn't mean the Cup didn't have some inbuilt charm to return the winner to the outside of the maze and thus wasn't a regular Portkey.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

Dumbledore had just heard Barty Jnr say "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner. Turned it into a Portkey." So when he asked Harry, he already knew it was a Portkey. However the way Barty says it, it sounds as though the Cup wasn't a Portkey before he put the spell on it. Of course that doesn't mean the Cup didn't have some inbuilt charm to return the winner to the outside of the maze and thus wasn't a regular Portkey.

That's one possibility. Even if the cup wasn't a built-in portkey, though, it is possible that Moody would have been charged with the task of putting the portkey charm on it after placing it in the middle of the maze, if that was the Triwizard panel's plan. I don't really feel like too much can be read from that statement.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by willfitz

That's one possibility. Even if the cup wasn't a built-in portkey, though, it is possible that Moody would have been charged with the task of putting the portkey charm on it after placing it in the middle of the maze, if that was the Triwizard panel's plan. I don't really feel like too much can be read from that statement.

I'm of the mind that the cup was always going to be a portkey, but the particular segment "turned it into" is suggestive. I'm struggling to remember the context of the statement, but it seems like an odd choice of words for discussing the matter with other wizards who would presumably have known the cup was to have been a portkey. It's just, the implication I get is that he's saying he changed the cup from what the listeners would have expected it to be into a portkey, not simply confirming that he made it a portkey.

After all, with flesh memory magic available, and who knows what else, it's really not a given that the cup needed to be a portkey to fulfill its purpose.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, no, 'don't break the connection' is not the first thing that comes to mind in terms of words of comfort, if you were to push it out of context completely; but of course, in the context, it makes perfect sense. Harry holding on to the connection caused a phoenix song generated by the cores of the wand which made him feel extremely comforted, and so it makes sense that that would lead to an assertion within Harry's mind that he ought not to let go. It might as well have been his own voice he was answering.

Out of context? I think not. The very next sentence is “I know, Harry told the music, I know I mustn't...but no sooner had he thought it, than the thing became much harder to do. “ This is exactly what the instruction “Don’t break the connection” was warning him about. Since there is a purpose for the warning immediately following the warning, it does not appear to me this was just to comfort Harry. How is that out of context?

Harry knew nothing about Priori Incantatem, so how could he have subconsciously warned himself about it?

Originally Posted by DenverWagner

I believe you're reaching, IMO. I just don't see how Dumbledore could have done it.

The power of the Elder Wand? There are complaints that the Elder Wand could not have been as powerful as it was supposed to be because we never really see that power. But JKR could have hidden an example here.

Originally Posted by DenverWagner

I, for one, always take Harry's interactions with dead people with a grain of salt. They can be true echoes of dead loved ones, but I believe what they say actually comes entirely from Harry's mind - his unconscious, if you will. I'm including the whole dialogue in limbo. I think there is nothing in that conversation that Harry couldn't have concluded or inferred by himself. And, like a dream, that vision only serves to bring home his unconscious reasoning.

But, in this case, the echoes say things to Voldemort that Harry doesn’t hear. That doesn’t seem like something the subconscious would do. DD also confirms that what Harry sees are echoes of previous living beings that retain their appearance and character.

Originally Posted by DenverWagner

But isn't the Portkey Dumbledore makes in the Ministry also touch-activated? The one he produces out of the severed head of the male statue?

Nope.

OotP: The Only One He Ever Feared He walked away from the pool to the place where the golden wizard's head lay on the floor. He pointed his wand at it and muttered, 'Portus.' The head glowed blue and trembled noisily against the wooden floor for a few seconds, then became still once more. . . . “'Take this Portkey, Harry.” He held out the golden head of the statue and Harry placed his hand on it, past caring what he did next or where he went. “I shall see you in half an hour,” said Dumbledore quietly. “One ... two ... three ...”

Originally Posted by DenverWagner

Because they're all dead? Hasn't the Triwizard Tournament being on break for centuries?

From what I recall, the school of the winning champion keeps the cup.

Originally Posted by DenverWagner

Maybe Portkey rules apply different to the grounds, as opposed to the castle? Or maybe to a Portkey that already is in the grounds? Or maybe the stricter rules regarding Portkeys were only put into place after OotP? Because Dumbledore Portkeys Harry into his office after the battle in the Ministry...

And he Portkeys Harry and the Weasley children to Grimmauld Place when Mr. Weasley is attacked by Nagini. Both instances are in and out of his office. But the headmaster controls the security of the school. We never see any other Portkey travel in or out of the school with the exception of the Triwizard cup--but as posited previously on this thread, the security may have been lifted for the cup to work and that is why LV had to wait until the last task to get to Harry.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Priori Incantatem is a spell that makes a wand show what spells had been cast with it. In GOF when Crouch Sr. finds Winky, he places his wand tip to tip to Harry's and says "priori incantato". In DH, Harry tells Hermione that Voldemort will know the Phoenix wand is broken because they'll use Priori Incantatem on Hermione's wand (left behind at the Malfoys').

For some reason I am under the impression that Amos Diggory used Prior Incantato on Harry’s wand–did I mix that up?

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

The connection was caused by forcing two wands with cores from the same source to duel against each other at the same time. The spells each of them cast met in midair, which is when they connected. This effect is completely separate from the Priori Incantatem, which in the graveyard only happens after Harry forces the flow of energy back into Voldemort's wand.

I agree completely. And if you wouldn’t mind contemplating and answering this question for me, from your point of view: How and why are Harry and Voldemort moved to a clear spot in the graveyard away from Riddle Sr.’s grave when the wands very first connect?

(Really enjoyed your explanation of how Harry becomes master of the Elder Wand, btw.)

Originally Posted by willfitz

That's one possibility. Even if the cup wasn't a built-in portkey, though, it is possible that Moody would have been charged with the task of putting the portkey charm on it after placing it in the middle of the maze, if that was the Triwizard panel's plan. I don't really feel like too much can be read from that statement.

LV never intended to return Harry’s body to Hogwarts–in fact, there are two instances where he indicates he was going to feed Harry to Nagini. So there was no reason for Moody to have put 2 Portus charms on the cup (even if he was supposed to place one.) And he only cops to one under Veritaserum as well. So how does Harry get back?

Originally Posted by canismajoris

I'm of the mind that the cup was always going to be a portkey, but the particular segment "turned it into" is suggestive. I'm struggling to remember the context of the statement, but it seems like an odd choice of words for discussing the matter with other wizards who would presumably have known the cup was to have been a portkey. It's just, the implication I get is that he's saying he changed the cup from what the listeners would have expected it to be into a portkey, not simply confirming that he made it a portkey.

After all, with flesh memory magic available, and who knows what else, it's really not a given that the cup needed to be a portkey to fulfill its purpose.

I think it rather odd as well. There are two places where Crouch mentions it. First is when he explains what LV needed:

GoF: Veritaserum "And what did Lord Voldemort ask you to do?" said Dumbledore. "He asked me whether I was ready to risk everything for him. I was ready. It was my dream, my greatest ambition, to serve him, to prove myself to him. He told me he needed to place a faithful servant at Hogwarts. A servant who would guide Harry Potter through the Triwizard Tournament without appearing to do so. A servant who would watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master. But first -"

The second time is the last thing Crouch tells DD while under Veritaserum:

GoF: Veritaserum There was complete silence now, except for Winky's continued sobs. Then Dumbledore said, "And tonight..." "I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner," whispered Barty Crouch. "Turned it into a Portkey. My master's plan worked. He is returned to power and I will be honored by him beyond the dreams of wizards." The insane smile lit his features once more, and his head drooped onto his shoulder as Winky wailed and sobbed at his side.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Technically–that might be a possibility. However, some of the story confuses me a bit here, which I’ll dissect momentarily and for which I’d appreciate any further comments, if you would be so kind.

However, what you point out actually strengthens my case because only DD, Ollivander and Harry knew that the wands shared the same core and that reduces the number of wizards who could have passed on the information. Since Harry didn’t know about Priori Incantatem, and Ollivander has no association with the incident, DD is the only one who could have sent the instruction to “not break the connection” that Harry receives when the wands connect.

I must say that my comment was purely for clarification. I was not involved in the debate at all, but I wanted to point out the technicality that Sirius does know, at the least, about the spell effect Priori Incantatem (as opposed to the charm, Priori Incantato). Whether that hurts or helps your argument was not my intention - but I have deeply enjoyed your analysis, and I will elaborate below.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Dissecting:If Sirius understands Priori Incantatem, why doesn’t he know that the wands would have to share the same core in order to connect? Why doesn’t he say something like “The wands connected? You mean your wand and Voldemort’s share the same core?”

I think the best explanation is that Sirius simply knew a very general theory about Priori Incantatem. He knew it as the Reverse Spell Effect, but Dumbledore introduces it as if it was a "very rare effect" only produced by brother wands doing battle. Thus, it does seem contradictory that Sirius would know the name but not the actual effect (e.g. He could not explain how Harry could have seen an echo of Cedric). However, Sirius knowing the translation of Priori Incantatem (and, indeed, this may just be what he did: he inferred Priori Incantatem as a "Reverse Spell Effect" because it is a fairly accurate translation of the Latin) does not mean that he would know everything else about it. He could have just read about it in a book that didn't elaborate further. But, I agree, it does seem clear that Sirius did not know that Prior Incantatem was a "very rare effect" in which "one of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse." Perhaps Sirius did know that Priori Incantatem was an effect only between brother wands (the text does not disprove this possibility), and perhaps even that he knew of Harry and Voldemort's shared connection, but he did not know of the actual effect that Priori Incantatem produced.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Invisible beam of understanding shot between them? Understanding of what? I read this as an understanding of the connection Fawkes made between them, which DD doesn’t want to divulge to Sirius.

I have always read it that an invisible beam of understanding shot between Dumbledore's eyes - not between Dumbledore and Harry - because Harry is still nonplussed after he witnesses that "invisible beam." Thus, I think Dumbledore was hit with the realization of what happened: echoes of Cedric and others would have appeared. And Dumbledore follows up this realization after answering Sirius' question. I doubt that Dumbledore had ever witnessed the actual effect; perhaps he researched it and knew it was possible, but when he connected Priori Incantatem with what Harry experienced Dumbledore was hit with a realization of what exactly that would entail. I have never seen this as Dumbledore understanding some sort of connection he experienced with Harry/Fawkes.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Everything before that cannot be attributed to Priori Incantatem because DD says the wizards have to force the wands to do battle before this effect can take place.

I always thought that casting Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra was the wands doing battle, and everything after that (the golden beam, the splintering of it, the phoenix song, echoes, etc.) was the result of the wands doing battle and part of the Priori Incantatem process. We know that the bead touching one of the wands appears to have caused the regurgitation that Dumbledore describes. But Dumbledore neither suggests or dismisses the possibility that earlier events would also take place (e.g. the golden dome and phoenix song).

Originally Posted by mirrormere

So the important question is: How do the combatants get levitated into a space clear of headstones and, more significantly, away from the Triwizard cup? Both Harry and Voldemort are surprised by this occurrence and it panics the Death Eaters. Therefore it does not appear that anyone present is responsible.

Is it part of the wands “not working properly against each other”? The wands are engaged in Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra–how are they going to perform another spell?

I believe it is all part of the Priori Incantatem process. Simply because Dumbledore describes the event of regurgitation occurring does not, in my opinion, dismiss the possibility of the scenario producing other effects. Dumbledore says that "one of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells". Thus, that battle of will to move the bead of light onto Voldemort's wand was part of the Priori Incantatem process. Extrapolating, it seems likely that everything else - the levitation, the splintering of the golden beam into a dome, and the phoenix song - were likewise part of the process. At this point, Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra were no longer being performed - the effect of Priori Incantatem took over (perhaps hijacking the power behind both spells, as well as the twin core connection, to create such a powerful effect). Why did phoenix song come? Not because of Fawkes and Dumbledore, in my opinion, but because the wands' cores were phoenix feather.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

DD calls these manifestations echoes–which would be a reflection or repetition of the original, not a ghost with original thoughts. This is why I doubt they could know about the Portkey on their own.

I see these echoes as very similar to portraits, particularly the headmasters' ones. JKR has described these portraits much like Dumbledore describes the echoes - retaining appearance and character. Yet those portraits also have a high degree of omniscience, logic/understanding, and responsiveness to their surroundings. Thus, I do not see it at all far-fetched that the echoes would "know" that the cup would be a returning Portkey, especially since James and Lily were said to be amongst the smartest of their year.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

It has been posited on this thread, and I agree, that for the cup to transport the winner of the tournament to the judges, the restrictions in place around Hogwarts on magical travel had to be lifted and that is the reason LV had to wait for the final task and the use of the Triwizard cup. No, I haven’t found concrete references to absolutely confirm this other than the restriction on Apparation. That Draco had to use the Vanishing cabinets to get his DE comrades into Hogwarts suggests all other forms of transport were restricted without DD’s permission, or why bother with the cabinets?

You refer to the situation in HBP when security was much higher. In GoF Sirius could still Floo into the Gryffindor common room. Not until OotP was that network regulated (and continued to be so in HBP). Thus, if the Ministry-regulated Floo Network was not highly scrutinized at Hogwarts in GoF, can we really assume that the Ministry-regulated Portkeys were?

However, one (potentially implausible) view is that Voldemort/Crouch Jr. did not want to risk the Ministry noticing an unauthorized Portkey being created at Hogwarts on September 2. Instead, they could have waited until a (theoretical, and debatable) Ministry-approved Portkey was used at Hogwarts. And that is one line of extrapolation why one could believe the Triwizard Cup was originally a Portkey that would transport the champion out of the maze.

But then complications arise as to Barty Crouch's statement of turning the Cup into a Portkey, which seems to indicate that he did not know the Cup was (potentially) already a Portkey. However, one could also say that he simply turned it into another Portkey on top of the original, or parasitizing the existing Portus charm so that there would be an in-between stop at the graveyard.

My personal view is that a Portus charm already existed on the Triwizard Cup (to return the champion outside the maze) when Moody volunteered to take it into the maze and turn it into a Portkey to the graveyard. Thus, that the Cup would function as a return Portkey to Hogwarts if touched was either an overlooked detail by Voldemort (who assumed he would kill Harry and no one would use the Portkey) or a manipulatable tool (either returning Harry's body or barge into Hogwarts - the latter seems a little unlikely).

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

I'm of the mind that the cup was always going to be a portkey, but the particular segment "turned it into" is suggestive. I'm struggling to remember the context of the statement, but it seems like an odd choice of words for discussing the matter with other wizards who would presumably have known the cup was to have been a portkey. It's just, the implication I get is that he's saying he changed the cup from what the listeners would have expected it to be into a portkey, not simply confirming that he made it a portkey.

Well, at the same time, he is under the influence of Veritaserum, so I don't think he was choosing his words with his audience in mind, so much as just answering the question as completely and truthfully as he could.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Out of context? I think not. The very next sentence is “I know, Harry told the music, I know I mustn't...but no sooner had he thought it, than the thing became much harder to do. “ This is exactly what the instruction “Don’t break the connection” was warning him about. Since there is a purpose for the warning immediately following the warning, it does not appear to me this was just to comfort Harry. How is that out of context?

Harry knew nothing about Priori Incantatem, so how could he have subconsciously warned himself about it?

But I'm not viewing it as a warning at all; that was my point, really. Rather, I see it as a metaphor for the feelings with which Harry was filled upon hearing the music- a manifestation of those feelings, really.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

My personal view is that a Portus charm already existed on the Triwizard Cup (to return the champion outside the maze) when Moody volunteered to take it into the maze and turn it into a Portkey to the graveyard. Thus, that the Cup would function as a return Portkey to Hogwarts if touched was either an overlooked detail by Voldemort (who assumed he would kill Harry and no one would use the Portkey) or a manipulatable tool (either returning Harry's body or barge into Hogwarts - the latter seems a little unlikely).

If there was already a permanent Portus Charm on the Cup to take the winner out of the maze, wouldn't that mean that the final task would always have to take place in a maze? If the dragons or Lake had been the final task there would have been no need to transfer the champion anywhere. I can see that there might be a Portus Charm on the Cup which could be activated if the final task was going to leave the champion out of sight, and which Dumbledore had expected Moody to do when he took the Cup into the maze. But fake Moody didn't mention anything other than turning it into a Portkey which to me implies that he hadn't done anything else to it.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

Sirius knowing the translation of Priori Incantatem (and, indeed, this may just be what he did: he inferred Priori Incantatem as a "Reverse Spell Effect" because it is a fairly accurate translation of the Latin)

Sort of; I think the translation is pretty much "previous incantation".

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

My personal view is that a Portus charm already existed on the Triwizard Cup (to return the champion outside the maze) when Moody volunteered to take it into the maze and turn it into a Portkey to the graveyard. Thus, that the Cup would function as a return Portkey to Hogwarts if touched was either an overlooked detail by Voldemort (who assumed he would kill Harry and no one would use the Portkey) or a manipulatable tool (either returning Harry's body or barge into Hogwarts - the latter seems a little unlikely).

That's the way I see it, too.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I agree completely. And if you wouldn’t mind contemplating and answering this question for me, from your point of view: How and why are Harry and Voldemort moved to a clear spot in the graveyard away from Riddle Sr.’s grave when the wands very first connect?

That's always been interesting to me, why they were moved to an area that contained no graves. Perhaps because the Phoenix rises alive from its ashes, so dissimilar to the fate of those in the graves. In any case, since it is after it has reached clear ground that the light splinters to form the golden cage, and Phoenix song is heard...perhaps the Phoenix energy simply didn't want to be in the graveyard. Don't really know why. If anyone else would like to speculate, I'd be interested to hear it. Fantastic Beasts says that Phoenix song is magical, but gives only one purported example of its effect. Maybe JKR will eventually tell us more about why the connection moved them.

[DenverWagner]

I completely agree with someone's point about the phoenix song coming from the phoenix feather cores. I have just remembered that this was what I thought when I was reading.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

If there was already a permanent Portus Charm on the Cup to take the winner out of the maze, wouldn't that mean that the final task would always have to take place in a maze? If the dragons or Lake had been the final task there would have been no need to transfer the champion anywhere.

I highly doubt that the three tasks were always the same three tasks for each tournament. For one, it would be extremely lazy of wizards, who have so much room for ingenuity in such a setting, and for another, it would make all of the efforts to maintain the secrecy of the tasks rather redundant- one could simply look up what they were doing in the library.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

But, I agree, it does seem clear that Sirius did not know that Prior Incantatem was a "very rare effect" in which "one of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse."

Hence, my final conclusion that Sirius didn't know about Priori Incantatem. However, I think it would be more accurate for me to say he didn't understand Priori Incantatem.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I have always read it that an invisible beam of understanding shot between Dumbledore's eyes - not between Dumbledore and Harry - because Harry is still nonplussed after he witnesses that "invisible beam."

Here's the phrase again:

GoF: The Parting of the Ways His eyes gazed into Harry's and it was almost as though an invisible beam of understanding shot between them.

So you think an invisible beam of understanding shot between DD's two eyes rather than between DD's eyes and Harry's eyes? I have difficulty accepting that interpretation simply because the other explanation (the understanding occurred between DD and Harry) is so much less awkward. But that's my opinion.

I think Harry is still in a state of shock and that is why he seems nonplussed. However, he now lets DD take over the conversation, effectively only answering when prompted by DD.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I doubt that Dumbledore had ever witnessed the actual effect; perhaps he researched it and knew it was possible, but when he connected Priori Incantatem with what Harry experienced Dumbledore was hit with a realization of what exactly that would entail.

I agree that DD had probably never seen the actual effect. I think that as soon as he learned Harry had purchased the brother to LV's wand, he thoroughly researched what would happen when they had to duel each other, since DD would recognize there would be a strong possibility that LV and Harry would have to battle each other at some point. I believe DD knew precisely what would happen when the wands met (they wouldn't work against each other) and then were forced to battle (Priori Incantatem.) He shows no surprise at Harry's story.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I have never seen this as Dumbledore understanding some sort of connection he experienced with Harry/Fawkes.

I didn't either until I started closely examining the text and tried to put together a theory that would explain everything that was happening.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I always thought that casting Expelliarmus and Avada Kedavra was the wands doing battle, and everything after that (the golden beam, the splintering of it, the phoenix song, echoes, etc.) was the result of the wands doing battle and part of the Priori Incantatem process.

But DD says that first, the wands will not work properly against each other. Then he says "If, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle . . ." and he goes on to describe Priori Incantatem. To me this indicates that the reverse spell effect does not commence until Harry follows the instruction given through the phoenix song "Don't break the connection". The connection then becomes harder to maintain and, in fact, has to be forced by Harry to do so.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

We know that the bead touching one of the wands appears to have caused the regurgitation that Dumbledore describes. But Dumbledore neither suggests or dismisses the possibility that earlier events would also take place (e.g. the golden dome and phoenix song).

DD doesn't even let the topic come up. He very skillfully begins directing the conversation (from my pov)

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I see these echoes as very similar to portraits, particularly the headmasters' ones. JKR has described these portraits much like Dumbledore describes the echoes - retaining appearance and character. Yet those portraits also have a high degree of omniscience, logic/understanding, and responsiveness to their surroundings. Thus, I do not see it at all far-fetched that the echoes would "know" that the cup would be a returning Portkey, especially since James and Lily were said to be amongst the smartest of their year.

I agree the echoes are similar to portraits. However, portraits do not have a high degree of omniscience-there is no evidence they have omniscience at all. Ghosts are not omniscient-or Harry could have gone to any ghost to find out about the Ravenclaw diadem. Or for anything else he was curious about. (Where is the Chamber of Secrets? Is Sirius at the Ministry of Magic? Can Snape be trusted? Etc.)

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

You refer to the situation in HBP when security was much higher. In GoF Sirius could still Floo into the Gryffindor common room. Not until OotP was that network regulated (and continued to be so in HBP). Thus, if the Ministry-regulated Floo Network was not highly scrutinized at Hogwarts in GoF, can we really assume that the Ministry-regulated Portkeys were?

We have very few specifics about magical access to Hogwarts (other than the restriction on Apparation.) But there has to be tight security at Hogwarts because of something that LV says:

GoF: The Riddle House "I have my reasons for using the boy, as I have already explained to you, and I will use no other. I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference. As for the protection surrounding the boy, I believe my plan will be effective."

We know this plan took place at Hogwarts so the protection of which he speaks surrounding Harry would also be at Hogwarts. Harry is given free rein to wander through the castle and about the grounds; he has no body guards and we're never told of any charms or spells cast to keep track of him (indeed he would not have been able to solve any of the mysteries in the books if that were the case.)

Ministry regulation is separate from the security in place at Hogwarts and the headmaster is in charge of that security. Just because the Ministry lags behind current events and threats doesn't mean Dumbledore does.

From what I recall, the only way Sirius could gain access to Hogwarts was because he was an Animagus. Why didn't he just use the Floo network? Why didn't he Portkey in?

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

However, one (potentially implausible) view is that Voldemort/Crouch Jr. did not want to risk the Ministry noticing an unauthorized Portkey being created at Hogwarts on September 2.

On September 2? You mean the day after school starts? See below.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

Instead, they could have waited until a (theoretical, and debatable) Ministry-approved Portkey was used at Hogwarts. And that is one line of extrapolation why one could believe the Triwizard Cup was originally a Portkey that would transport the champion out of the maze.

Although the Ministry regulates Portkeys, there is no evidence that they track illegally made Portkeys such as the one DD makes for the Weasley children.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

But then complications arise as to Barty Crouch's statement of turning the Cup into a Portkey, which seems to indicate that he did not know the Cup was (potentially) already a Portkey.

Crouch/Moody is so involved with the tournament, on both sides, I think it would be unlikely he would not know the Cup was already a Portkey when he took it.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

However, one could also say that he simply turned it into another Portkey on top of the original, or parasitizing the existing Portus charm so that there would be an in-between stop at the graveyard.

If either scenario is possible. All Portus charms shown are one-time, one-way and timed.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

My personal view is that a Portus charm already existed on the Triwizard Cup (to return the champion outside the maze) when Moody volunteered to take it into the maze and turn it into a Portkey to the graveyard. Thus, that the Cup would function as a return Portkey to Hogwarts if touched was either an overlooked detail by Voldemort (who assumed he would kill Harry and no one would use the Portkey) or a manipulatable tool (either returning Harry's body or barge into Hogwarts - the latter seems a little unlikely).

LV spent months putting his plan together and going over every detail. He was extraordinarily intelligent wizard. I just can't see him overlooking such a big hole in his plan. His behavior at the graveyard shows no indication that he knew the Cup could take Harry back to Hogwarts. Likewise, Crouch was a very talented and intelligent wizard. Think of how much he had to know to Confund the GoF. He would not have been slacking off when it came to the Cup. He would have gone over every detail of the plan as well. If he thought there was any way the Cup could return Harry to Hogwarts, he would have informed LV or deactivated that function. Therefore, it just doesn't make sense to me that either of them knew of the possibility.

Further, if there were a touch activated Portus charm on the cup to begin with (for the sake of illustration, I don't believe there was), Moody would have to be told lest he touch it, get transported and the charm wouldn't work for the tournament. Since there was no evidence that LV was planning to return Harry's body to Hogwarts, Moody would have taken the charm off simply by touching it, taking it back into the maze and putting his own Portus charm on it.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, at the same time, he is under the influence of Veritaserum, so I don't think he was choosing his words with his audience in mind, so much as just answering the question as completely and truthfully as he could.

However, Crouch offers substantial detail beyond just answering the questions. Indeed, a question isn't even needed. DD simply says "You needed Alastor Moody" and Crouch spiels on for a bit more than half a page all by himself. And his story is complete. Do you find anything that is missing from his testimony? Does he skip any other part of the story relevant to his mission?

Originally Posted by willfitz

But I'm not viewing it as a warning at all; that was my point, really. Rather, I see it as a metaphor for the feelings with which Harry was filled upon hearing the music- a manifestation of those feelings, really.

I do understand that you consider "Don't break the connection" as a metaphor and not a literal instruction. But set in the context that it is (with a physical response from both the environment as well as Harry shortly after it is given) I'm just not able to see it as anything but literal. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. Respectfully, of course (I so enjoy this thread!)

Originally Posted by horcrux4

If there was already a permanent Portus Charm on the Cup to take the winner out of the maze, wouldn't that mean that the final task would always have to take place in a maze?

I think a maze as a traditional last task could be possible simply because the obstacles inside could be changed quite easily. Alternatively, they could set up a task that still featured the cup in such a way that it was the goal and would perform the same function (such as having it as the prize in the lake challenge instead of a person close to the champion.) Perhaps placing it on the top of a mountain and obstacles on the way up? (By the way-why didn't Harry just Accio his broom again for the maze?)

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

That's always been interesting to me, why they were moved to an area that contained no graves. Perhaps because the Phoenix rises alive from its ashes, so dissimilar to the fate of those in the graves.

That's an interesting thought. Maybe phoenixes have somewhat of a natural aversion to death, despite the fact that it doesn't affect them, per se.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

In any case, since it is after it has reached clear ground that the light splinters to form the golden cage, and Phoenix song is heard...perhaps the Phoenix energy simply didn't want to be in the graveyard.

Perhaps a natural repulsive force?

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Don't really know why. If anyone else would like to speculate, I'd be interested to hear it.

As would I!

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Fantastic Beasts says that Phoenix song is magical, but gives only one purported example of its effect. Maybe JKR will eventually tell us more about why the connection moved them.

That would be terrific! But that would put an end to our enjoyable pastime of speculation!

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

However, Crouch offers substantial detail beyond just answering the questions.

I agree. I'm just saying that Crouch Jr. wasn't choosing his words as carefully as he might in his normal 'sober' state (an indeed if it wasn't the 'final reveal' part of a story, where the audience needs to be filled in 100%).

I do understand that you consider "Don't break the connection" as a metaphor and not a literal instruction. But set in the context that it is (with a physical response from both the environment as well as Harry shortly after it is given) I'm just not able to see it as anything but literal. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. Respectfully, of course (I so enjoy this thread!)

You can respond to a feeling just as much as you can to an actual, literal verbalization. All I am suggesting is that the responses you mention were to the feeling ascribed to the phoenix song, rather than to any actual voice, which I don't believe is being suggested.

I don't believe it is as large of a difference as you are indicating.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

DD doesn't even let the topic come up. He very skillfully begins directing the conversation (from my pov)

I don't think Dumbledore ever "directs" the conversation. He simply needs to hear everything Harry remembers. Knowing that Voldemort used Harry's blood to rebuild his body was important information, for example. It is only when Harry reaches the point of priori incantatem, and seems momentarily unable to speak, that Dumbledore helps him along. This is also after Harry had been talking continuously for quite a while.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I didn't either until I started closely examining the text and tried to put together a theory that would explain everything that was happening.

I have to agree with MrSleepyHead on this one. Fawkes was not at the graveyard.

The Phoenix feathers in Harry's & Voldemort's wands are magical elements as they come from a magical creature -- but they are NOT Fawkes. Even if the Phoenix feathers in the wands had been from some other Phoenix (i.e., not Fawkes), the effect would likely have been exactly the same, with the golden connection, Phoenix song, etc.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I agree the echoes are similar to portraits. However, portraits do not have a high degree of omniscience-there is no evidence they have omniscience at all. Ghosts are not omniscient-or Harry could have gone to any ghost to find out about the Ravenclaw diadem. Or for anything else he was curious about. (Where is the Chamber of Secrets? Is Sirius at the Ministry of Magic? Can Snape be trusted? Etc.)

The ghosts and the portraits have never "passed on" though.

His behavior at the graveyard shows no indication that he knew the Cup could take Harry back to Hogwarts.

He screams in fury when Harry touches it. It wasn't shock or surprise. IMO he knew that the Cup would take Harry back but he didn't care about fixing that hole. This was going to be the first time that he would face Harry with him at his old strength. He was so confident that he would win that he was ready to "play" with Harry before killing him. He wanted to make it a show of power.


The only way I can see for Dumbledore taking so many chances (assuming the EW could actually do these things) and playing it the way he did is if he completely freaked out on hearing that Harry had vanished from the grounds.
He makes way too many assumptions, misses the easier options which is quite unlike Dumbledore.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

The ghosts and the portraits have never "passed on" though.

Ghosts haven't. But portraits are completely different; the actual people in them have passed on, unless they also have chosen to become ghosts. But I'm guessing the portraits only retain an echo of the living person as they were when the portrait was made.