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Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?



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  #41  
Old March 13th, 2009, 4:38 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by cardinalguy View Post
Cedric Diggory, anyone?
You misunderstand. We are questioning whether the dead can travel alone by portkey- whether they are able to set off the spell that was placed on the triwizard cup and whether portkeys will transport dead things if there isn't a living person attaching them to the portkey.


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  #42  
Old March 13th, 2009, 6:21 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
I don't see the problem. It was a portkey between Hogwarts and the Graveyard. Depending where you are when you grab it, you end up in the other place. Originally, it would take the winner to the winner's circle and it still had that power as well. So it went from the Graveyard to Hogwarts and since someone was holding it, took them right to the winner's circle.
I think it is possible that the Portkey would deliver Harry (or whomever touched it) to anywhere in the graveyard, and would return him to any point at Hogwarts near where it was touched. Therefore, the Portkey's return outside the maze is not unfeasible - especially if "Moody" charmed the Triwizard Cup before he got to the center of the maze.
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Originally Posted by cardinalguy
This has already been discussed. The intent wasn't to help Harry to escape; it was to return Harry's corpse.
I agree. Harry's body would have to be transported back to Hogwarts/the maze to make it seem as if he died from something in the task - not by Voldemort. The entire purpose behind Voldemort's rebirth was so no one would know he had returned. How would this have been possible if Harry's body had left the Hogwarts grounds and never returned? It would be clear Dark magic was the cause, and that Voldemort was the probable contributor. Thus, Voldemort needed a way to deliver Harry's corpse back to Hogwarts, and the Portkey would logically do that.
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I agree. How do we know that the dead can travel by portkey? If it is mentioned in the books can someone please point it out cause I don't remember that.
How do we not know? We have just as much evidence that the dead can travel alone by Portkey than they cannot. In fact, there is no evidence that a living wizard has to use a Portkey. Since Voldemort seemingly based his rebirth on transporting Harry from Hogwarts to the graveyard; kill him; and then return him in an inconspicuous manner, I think it very plausible that a lifeless corpse could travel alone by Portkey.

Even if a dead body could not activate a Portkey, a Death Eater could touch the Triwizard Cup, thus activating it; attach Harry to it; and then let go before the Portkey actually "took off". The Portkey would logically continue without the Death Eater's company.

We also know that a Portkey can take off, based on a timer, without any accompaniment. In DH, Ron and Tonks "missed their Portkey, it came back without them." To me, this evidence points to the feasibility that a deceased Harry would be able to be transported back to Hogwarts by a Portkey alone.


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  #43  
Old March 13th, 2009, 7:57 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

So many points to refute, where do I start?!

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I agree. Harry's body would have to be transported back to Hogwarts/the maze to make it seem as if he died from something in the task - not by Voldemort. The entire purpose behind Voldemort's rebirth was so no one would know he had returned. How would this have been possible if Harry's body had left the Hogwarts grounds and never returned? It would be clear Dark magic was the cause, and that Voldemort was the probable contributor. Thus, Voldemort needed a way to deliver Harry's corpse back to Hogwarts, and the Portkey would logically do that.
If your theory is that Dumbledore did not place a charm on the cup to transport the winner to outside the maze, then don't you think that it would be a little odd if Harry magically appeared somewhere on the Hogwarts ground holding the cup and uncharacteristically devoid of life? Really, does it get any more suspicious than that? Surely if he was just gone with no trace left behind they would just assume that he had taken the cup, but than been eaten by the giant spider or the sphinx or somehow magically consumed by a blast-ended skrewt.

Also, I don't agree with your idea that a portkey just has a rough idea of where it is going. In my opinion, it would be far too much of a coincidence that the moldy old boot used by the Weasleys and the Diggory's to get to the QWC just happened to land them right in front of the people in charge of the portkeys, and a pile of used portkeys, despite the fact that Amos had picked up the boot and held it up, thereby moving it from its original position.
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How do we not know? We have just as much evidence that the dead can travel alone by Portkey than they cannot. In fact, there is no evidence that a living wizard has to use a Portkey. Since Voldemort seemingly based his rebirth on transporting Harry from Hogwarts to the graveyard; kill him; and then return him in an inconspicuous manner, I think it very plausible that a lifeless corpse could travel alone by Portkey.
We don't know because Cedric was no more alive than the desk upon which Dumbledore created a portkey in OotP, which didn't get transported anywhere. How do you expect a portkey to distinguish between a dead body and an inanimate object? Keep in mind that you don't have to hold onto a portkey, just touch it. A portkey effectively holds on to you.

Do you think that you could hitch a ride on a portkey by touching it with a 20-foot pole? I don't.
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Even if a dead body could not activate a Portkey, a Death Eater could touch the Triwizard Cup, thus activating it; attach Harry to it; and then let go before the Portkey actually "took off". The Portkey would logically continue without the Death Eater's company.
This may have been the case if the portkey wasn't triggered by the first touch. If a Death Eater had been touching Harry and made him touch the cup, they both would have been transported back. This would only be so if a dead body could be transported by a portkey, which I think is complete balderdash.


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  #44  
Old March 13th, 2009, 8:44 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by cardinalguy View Post
Cedric Diggory, anyone?
Thats only because Harry was there to grab Cedric and the portkey so that doesn't count. If everything had gone the way Voldemort intended then Harry would have been there alone. How would he have been able to travel to the winners circle then if had been dead?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
We don't know because Cedric was no more alive than the desk upon which Dumbledore created a portkey in OotP, which didn't get transported anywhere. How do you expect a portkey to distinguish between a dead body and an inanimate object? Keep in mind that you don't have to hold onto a portkey, just touch it. A portkey effectively holds on to you.

Do you think that you could hitch a ride on a portkey by touching it with a 20-foot pole? I don't.

This may have been the case if the portkey wasn't triggered by the first touch. If a Death Eater had been touching Harry and made him touch the cup, they both would have been transported back. This would only be so if a dead body could be transported by a portkey, which I think is complete balderdash.
Exactly! I just don't see how it is possible that dead body can travel on its own!


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  #45  
Old March 14th, 2009, 6:41 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
We don't know because Cedric was no more alive than the desk upon which Dumbledore created a portkey in OotP, which didn't get transported anywhere. How do you expect a portkey to distinguish between a dead body and an inanimate object?
You're straw-manning again. You ask us how we expect it to distinguish? Why are you so certain it doesn't?


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  #46  
Old March 14th, 2009, 6:57 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I just started wondering why the Triwizard Cup returned Harry and Cedric's body to Hogwarts when Harry summoned it in the graveyard. We know that most portkeys are only good for one use, from the Quidditch World Cup, so why was this one two-way. Also, as Moody was the one who turned it into a portkey, would it not be in his best interest to remove any escape route for Harry from the graveyard?

Just as a theory to start off with, I think that maybe Dumbledore had already made the cup a portkey to return the winning student out of the maze. Either Moody didn't know this, or Dumbledore had prevented the spell from being removed.
Excellent point, I was wondering about the Portkey returning Harry to Hogwarts myself, it was one of the inconsistencies in portkey capabilities that JKR kind of skated over (like she did a number of such details.)

Your theory is a very ingenious one. It makes sense, too.

It however raises the question, why was it the fake Moody's spell that worked first and not Dumbledore's, who's a much more powerful wizard?


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Old March 14th, 2009, 8:07 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by cardinalguy View Post
You're straw-manning again. You ask us how we expect it to distinguish? Why are you so certain it doesn't?
Because no where does it state that a dead body can travel! If it had no idea if what it was touching was alive or dead then the stand it was on would have gone to the graveyard before the champions had even gotten into the maze!


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  #48  
Old March 14th, 2009, 10:20 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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You're straw-manning again. You ask us how we expect it to distinguish? Why are you so certain it doesn't?
First off, I don't believe that I am straw-manning. I am basically pointing out how much easier it would be to understand the portkey distinguishing between living and inanimate things than it would be to distinguish between things that at one time possessed the capability of being alive and those that don't.

No, I understand what you are saying, but I sort of am comparing the options with a series of what-ifs, and it would seem to me very illogical for dead bodies to travel by portkey.

Mainly, at what point of deadness does a body stop being transported by portkey. Like I have said, I don't think that a bone touching the cup would have been transported. Further than that, there are traces of human remains all over the place and in the ground, so shouldn't everything be transported?

Instead of bizarrely having to draw some illogical line in the sand, I feel the better solution is just to say that a portkey can transport living magical creatures which are attached to them at their time of departure.


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  #49  
Old March 14th, 2009, 12:01 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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First off, I don't believe that I am straw-manning. I am basically pointing out how much easier it would be to understand the portkey distinguishing between living and inanimate things than it would be to distinguish between things that at one time possessed the capability of being alive and those that don't.

No, I understand what you are saying, but I sort of am comparing the options with a series of what-ifs, and it would seem to me very illogical for dead bodies to travel by portkey.

Mainly, at what point of deadness does a body stop being transported by portkey. Like I have said, I don't think that a bone touching the cup would have been transported. Further than that, there are traces of human remains all over the place and in the ground, so shouldn't everything be transported?

Instead of bizarrely having to draw some illogical line in the sand, I feel the better solution is just to say that a portkey can transport living magical creatures which are attached to them at their time of departure.
Point taken (though not adopted). Unfortunately it brings us back to our original question: why did the cup still a portkey (shall we call it a Crouch mistake or a DeM)? Furthermore, what was Voldemort planning to do with Harry's body after he killed him?


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Old March 14th, 2009, 1:57 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
I just started wondering why the Triwizard Cup returned Harry and Cedric's body to Hogwarts when Harry summoned it in the graveyard. We know that most portkeys are only good for one use, from the Quidditch World Cup, so why was this one two-way. Also, as Moody was the one who turned it into a portkey, would it not be in his best interest to remove any escape route for Harry from the graveyard?

Just as a theory to start off with, I think that maybe Dumbledore had already made the cup a portkey to return the winning student out of the maze. Either Moody didn't know this, or Dumbledore had prevented the spell from being removed.
This has been discussed before - many times actually.

There are two types of portkeys demonstrated in the text. The first is the type they use to travel to the Quidditch World Cup. That type was set to activate at a preset specific time and was only good for one trip. Once it had been used, it was discarded - or recycled for another one way trip. We also see this type used in DH in the Seven Potters plan - they had seven Portkeys at different locations set to activate at specific times to arrive at the Burrow. That type of portkey would activate at the set time whether anyone was touching it or not - which is demonstrated in DH when some of the portkeys arrive at the Burrow without the people who were supposed to use them.

GOFFor those who don’t want to Apparate, or can’t, we use Portkeys. They’re objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time.


DH“Hagrid!” said Ted Tonks warningly, as the hairbrush glowed bright blue, and Hagrid only just got his forefinger to it in time.


DH“Ron and Tonks should have been back first, but they missed their Portkey, it came back without them,” she said, pointing at a rusty oil can lying on the ground nearby. “And that one,” she pointed at an ancient sneaker, “should have been Dad and Fred’s, they were supposed to be second. You and Hagrid were third and,” she checked her watch, “if they made it, George and Lupin ought to be back in about a minute.”


That would appear to be the "official" type of portkey. And that makes sense because it would be a huge risk to leave objects laying around that would activate if someone touched it. That would put the wizarding community at a high risk of exposure. So this would be the more common type used - setting a prearranged time and destination for a one way trip.

Crouch Jr. set up a portkey that did not activate at a prearranged time - it activated when it was touched. That was necessary for what he needed the portkey to do. There was no way for him to determine the exact time that Harry would reach the center of the maze so he could not use a preset time. This type of portkey does not work the same way as the other - as is demonstrated in the text. It activated as soon as it was touched - regardless of who was touching it - and would work that way forever - continuously going between the starting point and destination - or at least until the enchantment was removed from the object.

GOF“On three, right?” said Harry. “One — two — three —”

He and Cedric both grasped a handle.

Instantly, Harry felt a jerk somewhere behind his navel. His feet had left the ground. He could not unclench the hand holding the Triwizard Cup; it was pulling him onward in a howl of wind and swirling color, Cedric at his side.


GOFUse my Death Eater to ensure that the boy won the tournament — that he touched the Triwizard Cup first — the cup which my Death Eater had turned into a Portkey, which would bring him here, beyond the reach of Dumbledore’s help and protection, and into my waiting arms.


Using this type of portkey did present a slight risk because it did give Harry a means to get back to Hogwarts. However, it was a necessary risk because - as I said above - there was no way to determine the exact time that Harry would reach the center of the maze. In order for Crouch Jr.'s plan to work, it had to be split second timing - the portkey had to activate as soon as Harry touched it.

The question that's not answered in the books is whether this type of portkey was something that already existed and simply wasn't used because it wouldn't be practical to leave objects laying around that would transport anyone who touched them to various locations - a serious risk of exposure of the magical community - or if it was something that Crouch Jr. invented himself because the time activated portkey wouldn't work for his plan. There really isn't enough information given to determine which would be the case - though the fact that Arthur only describes one type of portkey to Harry does indicate that Crouch Jr. invented this because that was what he needed. However, it is clear that neither Cedric nor Harry are aware that they could simply grab the cup and be taken back to Hogwarts - they think it's another part of the task and prepare to look around the graveyard before Pettigrew shows up to kill Cedric. And it's the echo of Lily from Voldemort's wand that tells Harry he can use the portkey to get back to Hogwarts - prior to that, he didn't know he had a means to escape the graveyard.

GOF“When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments . . . but we will give you time . . . you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts . . . do you understand, Harry?”


And to address the question of whether a portkey would transport a dead body - I would have to say that is unlikely from what we are shown in the text.

GOFHarry’s hand had closed on Cedric’s wrist; one tombstone stood between him and Voldemort, but Cedric was too heavy to carry, and the cup was out of reach —

Voldemort’s red eyes flamed in the darkness. Harry saw his mouth curl into a smile, saw him raise his wand.

Accio!” Harry yelled, pointing his wand at the Triwizard Cup. It flew into the air and soared toward him. Harry caught it by the handle —

He heard Voldemort’s scream of fury at the same moment that he felt the jerk behind his navel that meant the Portkey had worked — it was speeding him away in a whirl of wind and color, and Cedric along with him. . . . They were going back.


Harry is the only one touching the cup there - he carried Cedric's body back with him. The portkey takes the person and whatever they are holding on to - such as Harry's rucksack in DH. In this case, Harry was holding Cedric's body and it was transported with him.


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  #51  
Old March 14th, 2009, 4:50 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
If your theory is that Dumbledore did not place a charm on the cup to transport the winner to outside the maze, then don't you think that it would be a little odd if Harry magically appeared somewhere on the Hogwarts ground holding the cup and uncharacteristically devoid of life? Really, does it get any more suspicious than that?
Certainly. This is why I still think it plausible Dumbledore also enchanted the Triwizard Cup, since Dumbledore would not question how Harry got to the beginning of the maze after touching the cup. Crouch Jr. would have known of Dumbledore's spell, and would depend on it for the return of Harry's body.

However, it is also possible that this Portkey was two-way, in which case "Moody" would have had to place the Portus spell on a location near where Dumbledore had enchanted the cup to be transported.
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Originally Posted by willfitz
Surely if he was just gone with no trace left behind they would just assume that he had taken the cup, but than been eaten by the giant spider or the sphinx or somehow magically consumed by a blast-ended skrewt.
I doubt it. Autopsies could have been performed on all of the magical creatures to find the remains of Harry. Voldemort had to make it look as if Harry was killed in the maze, so Harry had to be found. I believe Voldemort was planning on mangling Harry's body, after Harry was killed, to resemble something in the maze, so Harry's death would not be detectable to Voldemort. He could make it appear that Harry had enough life to touch the Triwizard Cup (which, with Dumbledore's spell, would transport the champion to the outside of the maze), and the trauma the Portkey delivered on Harry's body would have killed him.
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Originally Posted by willfitz
Also, I don't agree with your idea that a portkey just has a rough idea of where it is going. In my opinion, it would be far too much of a coincidence that the moldy old boot used by the Weasleys and the Diggory's to get to the QWC just happened to land them right in front of the people in charge of the portkeys, and a pile of used portkeys, despite the fact that Amos had picked up the boot and held it up, thereby moving it from its original position.
I was merely thinking aloud, providing more possibilities. However, as meesha1971 says, the Triwizard Cup was a different type of Portkey than those set up by the Ministry in GoF and the Order in DH. Those were set on a timer and an exact destination. Meanwhile, I think, for instance, the Portkey Dumbledore created in OotP was simply meant to deliver Harry to "Dumbledore's Office" - nowhere more specific than that. The same would be true of the Triwizard Cup Portkey: it would deliver Harry to a rough location in the Little Hangleton graveyard, and would return to a point near/in the maze - unless specified (which can certainly be done).
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Originally Posted by willfitz
We don't know because Cedric was no more alive than the desk upon which Dumbledore created a portkey in OotP, which didn't get transported anywhere. How do you expect a portkey to distinguish between a dead body and an inanimate object?
I agree that a Portkey would not transport a long-dead object (e.g. a wooden desk, bones) nor a completely inanimate object (e.g. a rock). However, in Cedric's or Harry's (if Voldemort's plan had succeeded) case, neither of them would have been dead for long. Their lives and magic would have been recently terminated from their bodies, and I think a Portkey could transport such objects alone.

Also, in OotP, Dumbledore is holding the Portkey as Harry touches it to return to Hogwarts - but only Harry is transported. This tells me that a Portkey can be directed as to what it will transport and what it will not.
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Originally Posted by willfitz
Keep in mind that you don't have to hold onto a portkey, just touch it. A portkey effectively holds on to you.
Exactly, which is why a dead body could feasibly be transported by a Portkey - the Portkey does not require the commuter to have any muscle/mental input.
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Originally Posted by tayequalsyay
Because no where does it state that a dead body can travel!
Nowhere does it state that a dead body cannot travel. I certainly agree that a Portkey can recognize what is touching it, and I think it would recognize a dead body (especially a recently deceased victim) as an able commuter. This debate is entirely based on opinion, though, since we have no clear evidence to support or contradict.
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Originally Posted by cardinalguy
Furthermore, what was Voldemort planning to do with Harry's body after he killed him?
It is certainly possible that Voldemort planned to create another Portkey (set upon a timer, which we know would transport anything attached to it) and then have Harry return alone. This would risk being tracked by the Ministry, though. Therefore, this is why I think Voldemort knew the Triwizard Cup Portkey was two-way and would be capable of returning Harry's body. Otherwise (i.e. if he created a new Portkey in a Muggle village), he risked exposure.
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Originally Posted by meesha1971
This type of portkey does not work the same way as the other - as is demonstrated in the text. It activated as soon as it was touched - regardless of who was touching it - and would work that way forever - continuously going between the starting point and destination - or at least until the enchantment was removed from the object.
You are assuming that a Portkey of this manner is two-way. I agree, but there is no adamant evidence, and this point is what is causing much of the debate.
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Originally Posted by meesha1971
The question that's not answered in the books is whether this type of portkey was something that already existed and simply wasn't used because it wouldn't be practical to leave objects laying around that would transport anyone who touched them to various locations - a serious risk of exposure of the magical community - or if it was something that Crouch Jr. invented himself because the time activated portkey wouldn't work for his plan.
We know Dumbledore created a touch-activated Portkey in OotP, after the Department of Mysteries battle. Therefore, I do not think this was something of Crouch's own creation. To me, it is a much simpler form of Portkey, though effective in numerous situations.


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  #52  
Old March 14th, 2009, 6:24 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
Certainly. This is why I still think it plausible Dumbledore also enchanted the Triwizard Cup, since Dumbledore would not question how Harry got to the beginning of the maze after touching the cup. Crouch Jr. would have known of Dumbledore's spell, and would depend on it for the return of Harry's body.
Except that Dumbledore was just as shocked and confused as everyone else when Harry and Cedric appeared at the edge of the maze.

Crouch Jr. says that he was the one who made the cup into a portkey - not that he altered a spell already put on it, but that he put the spell on it himself. And Cedric turns to Harry in the graveyard and asks him if anyone told him the cup would be a portkey and Harry says no. The Triwizard Cup was not supposed to be a portkey - that was made clear in the text.

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I doubt it. Autopsies could have been performed on all of the magical creatures to find the remains of Harry. Voldemort had to make it look as if Harry was killed in the maze, so Harry had to be found. I believe Voldemort was planning on mangling Harry's body, after Harry was killed, to resemble something in the maze, so Harry's death would not be detectable to Voldemort. He could make it appear that Harry had enough life to touch the Triwizard Cup (which, with Dumbledore's spell, would transport the champion to the outside of the maze), and the trauma the Portkey delivered on Harry's body would have killed him.
I agree. I meant to mention that in my post above and forgot. Thanks for bringing that up.

Not only was the timing a factor since there was no way to determine the exact time Harry would reach the center of the maze, there is also the fact that Voldemort wanted his return to be a complete secret. And the last person he wanted to know about it was Dumbledore. The only way for him to accomplish that was to make sure Harry's body was found in the maze so it would appear that he was killed by something in the maze.

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I was merely thinking aloud, providing more possibilities. However, as meesha1971 says, the Triwizard Cup was a different type of Portkey than those set up by the Ministry in GoF and the Order in DH. Those were set on a timer and an exact destination. Meanwhile, I think, for instance, the Portkey Dumbledore created in OotP was simply meant to deliver Harry to "Dumbledore's Office" - nowhere more specific than that. The same would be true of the Triwizard Cup Portkey: it would deliver Harry to a rough location in the Little Hangleton graveyard, and would return to a point near/in the maze - unless specified (which can certainly be done).
I agree. I think that would be true of all portkeys in terms of the starting point/destination though. They're set to arrive at a general location and they could take the person to any area within that location. We see that in DH - the portkeys they set to arrive at the Burrow arrived at different areas around the yard. And we see in GOF that Voldemort did not know exactly where Harry would show up - Pettigrew had to come to where Harry and Cedric arrived - they weren't there waiting for them.

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I agree that a Portkey would not transport a long-dead object (e.g. a wooden desk, bones) nor a completely inanimate object (e.g. a rock). However, in Cedric's or Harry's (if Voldemort's plan had succeeded) case, neither of them would have been dead for long. Their lives and magic would have been recently terminated from their bodies, and I think a Portkey could transport such objects alone.
We aren't shown a portkey being used to transport an object alone. I think that would be unlikely because you have to physically touch it to be transported. Harry was able to carry Cedric back - Cedric was not touching the portkey. By the same token, Harry was able to carry his rucksack along with him in DH. A person can carry an object along with them, but it does not appear that a portkey could be used to transport an object without a living person holding it.

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Exactly, which is why a dead body could feasibly be transported by a Portkey - the Portkey does not require the commuter to have any muscle/mental input.
It does require the commuter to physically touch it though. A dead body could be carried by a living person - as we see with Harry carrying Cedric in GOF. But a dead body cannot touch a portkey on it's own.

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It is certainly possible that Voldemort planned to create another Portkey (set upon a timer, which we know would transport anything attached to it) and then have Harry return alone. This would risk being tracked by the Ministry, though. Therefore, this is why I think Voldemort knew the Triwizard Cup Portkey was two-way and would be capable of returning Harry's body. Otherwise (i.e. if he created a new Portkey in a Muggle village), he risked exposure.
I agree.

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You are assuming that a Portkey of this manner is two-way. I agree, but there is no adamant evidence, and this point is what is causing much of the debate.
It seems most likely to me that having a portkey activate by touch rather than a set time would leave the portkey active until the enchantment was removed. A timer would expire - once the time had passed, that would be it. What would make a touch-activated portkey expire? It seems most likely that it would be active forever - or at least until someone removed the enchantment.

However, I do agree that it was necessary for the cup to go back to Hogwarts so Harry's body could be found in the maze. I think it is most likely that Pettigrew would have been given that assignment because he could carry the bodies and then transform into a rat and hide - and Voldemort certainly wasn't worried about what happened to Pettigrew after he returned and had the other Death Eaters back in his service. So it is possible that this was done deliberately.

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We know Dumbledore created a touch-activated Portkey in OotP, after the Department of Mysteries battle. Therefore, I do not think this was something of Crouch's own creation. To me, it is a much simpler form of Portkey, though effective in numerous situations.
Well, the problem there is that Dumbledore did that in OOTP - a long time after Crouch Jr. did it in GOF. It's just as likely that Dumbledore was inspired by what Crouch Jr. invented and improved upon it.

We have to look at GOF alone for this because that is the first time we see it. Anything that happened after GOF was influenced by the events in GOF. Arthur describes a singular type of portkey to Harry when they are going to the World Cup - an object that will transport someone at a prearranged time. Nobody was prepared for the Triwizard Cup to be a portkey - that caught everyone by surprise - including Dumbledore. Cedric knew more about it than Harry - having grown up in the wizarding world - but he doesn't wonder what kind of portkey it might be. That implies that he only knows of one kind and figures they can't use that one again.

Crouch Jr. used this type of portkey out of necessity - and necessity is the mother of invention. The Triwizard Cup was not supposed to be a portkey - he made it into one because that was the best way to get Harry out of Hogwarts without anyone being aware of it. He couldn't set it on a timer because there was no way to know the exact time Harry would get to the center of the maze. And there needed to be a way to get Harry's body back to the maze so it would appear that he died because of the tournament so nobody would know that Voldemort had returned.

Really, the only questions I see would be whether Crouch Jr. invented that type of portkey and whether he intentionally set it as a two-way or if that was just a consequence of it being touch activated instead of on a timer. Everything else is answered by the fact that there were two different kinds of portkeys demonstrated in the text.


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Old March 14th, 2009, 6:27 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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You are assuming that a Portkey of this manner is two-way. I agree, but there is no adamant evidence, and this point is what is causing much of the debate
Well this is the only time we are shown such so I agree that there is not really any evidence to support this. For instance, it was never stated by Jo in the book that there was 2 types of portkeys and that the one type was a 1 way and the other roundtrip

And there are a few other "holes" that are cause for debate:

1. Why did it so conveniently transport Harry along with Cedric's dead body back in front of the crowd to the "winners cirlce" as I believe some have described it rather than to the middle of the maze. I'd think it would be more likely to transport back to the EXACT location from which it left.

2. Why does it HAVE to be a 2 way Portkey? Seems kinda stupid to give Harry a potential escape route. Perhaps this was ineviteable but you gotta think there was the capability of making a 1 way portkey just like the time activated ones that is rather activated by touch.

3. As some have suggested it would make sense for Dumbledore to have made the cup a portkey to transport the winner out of the maze safely and immediatly to prevent the others trying to harm the true winner and stealing the cup from them. And this was quite necessary I think because it's very welll possible that all 4 of the contestants reach the cup and end up fighting over it and causing serious harm (possibly even murder) in order to be the one exiting the maze with the cup and pronounced the winner...whatever it takes to win.


BTW, great theory Wlfitz...I think that is quite possible


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  #54  
Old March 14th, 2009, 9:00 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

Right, first off, I want to deal with Meesha and her long and very elaborate lecture on portkeys. It was very well put together, and I appreciate your theories, but I disagree. I prefer to view things as having one modus operandi. If the portkey functions in two different manners, it is because more spells have been compounded upon it, in my opinion. In all cases in the book, this is quite feasible.

For the bewitchment of the cup, all you have to do is put a spell on the cup that, upon first human contact, will set the time of departure for the portkey to be 0.01s after. This would obviously be pretty complex magic, but Crouch managed and I believe so did Dumbledore.

I believe that all portkeys are one-way. It just wouldn't make sense in my opinion, that you would need to specify a return time when creating a portkey. Besides, the whole essence of two-way travel is returning to where you started. Surely Harry would have ended up back in the center of the maze. Also, why wouldn't Crouch have specified the center of the maze if he had been setting it? Why would he want to give things away by making Harry just pop out of thin air right in front of the audience?

Just quickly now, I thought I'd dispel something that Mr Sleepy Head mentioned a few posts back. Dumbledore was not touching the kettle in his office when it transported Harry and the Weasleys back to GP. It says that they all gathered round his desk and he instructs them to make sure they are touching it. Harry glances up into his eyes, but it does not say that he is touching it as well. I don't believe that you can deccide who a portkey will or won't transport.

Back to Meesha, in your last post, you mentioned that Dumbledore was just as shocked and confused as everyone. As I can recall, Harry had appeared at the edge of the maze clutching a dead body and yelling "He's Back!!!" through sobs. I think he had every right to be shocked. Also, I don't recall anyone yelling "where did he come from" or anything. No one seemed surprised that people had appeared outside of the maze. My guess is that Dumbledore had already informed them that the winner would be transported to the outside of the maze as soon as they reached the cup.

The fact that Cedric and Harry have no clue that the cup will transport them back is a result of the fact that they only know of one type of portkey. I think that this is owing to the fact that only one exists, but there are different applications of it if you are creative. I think maybe the idea of a two-way portkey didn't occur to them because portkeys aren't inherently two-way.


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  #55  
Old March 14th, 2009, 9:09 pm
Raviolissimo  Undisclosed.gif Raviolissimo is offline
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

thinking about it more, i think that we're discounting the presence of wand-less magic.

listening to the part where Harry is listening to Snape's memories in the Penseive, and his mother Lily is doing all this wand-less magic, including almost flying - as a magical child younger than 11 - why would all that ability disappear the minute a witch or wizard is given a wand ?

granted, they make a promise to obey all sorts of rules once they are given a wand, but that doesn't make the ability go away.

i think some of the plot holes & inconsistencies in the book could be safely ascribed to wand-less magic. although it's more interesting to try & figure them out using magical theory


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  #56  
Old March 14th, 2009, 9:12 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by Raviolissimo View Post
thinking about it more, i think that we're discounting the presence of wand-less magic.

listening to the part where Harry is listening to Snape's memories in the Penseive, and his mother Lily is doing all this wand-less magic, including almost flying - as a magical child younger than 11 - why would all that ability disappear the minute a witch or wizard is given a wand ?

granted, they make a promise to obey all sorts of rules once they are given a wand, but that doesn't make the ability go away.

i think some of the plot holes & inconsistencies in the book could be safely ascribed to wand-less magic. although it's more interesting to try & figure them out using magical theory
I'm sorry but I don't see how that has to do with the issues we are debating. We all know that there is presence of wand-less magic. Dobby used it in CoS when he got Harry in trouble but I really don't think that wand-less magic played a part in the Triwizard Cup incident.


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  #57  
Old March 14th, 2009, 10:07 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Right, first off, I want to deal with Meesha and her long and very elaborate lecture on portkeys. It was very well put together, and I appreciate your theories, but I disagree. I prefer to view things as having one modus operandi. If the portkey functions in two different manners, it is because more spells have been compounded upon it, in my opinion. In all cases in the book, this is quite feasible.
We are shown in the text that there are two different types of portkeys. By the same token, there are different types of memory charms - Obliviate removes a memory entirely and is permanent while the Confundus charm merely alters a memory and could be reversed later. There are multiple "modus operandi" for quite a few things in the books - portkeys are only one example of two different things having a similar function.

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For the bewitchment of the cup, all you have to do is put a spell on the cup that, upon first human contact, will set the time of departure for the portkey to be 0.01s after. This would obviously be pretty complex magic, but Crouch managed and I believe so did Dumbledore.
That would still be a portkey activated by touch rather than a prearranged time. There is no delay when Harry and Cedric grab the Triwizard cup - they were immediately transported to the graveyard as soon as they touched the cup.

That would still be two completely different types of portkeys. The function of each is similar in that they transport a person to another location, but how they are activated is entirely different. One is set to automatically activate at a prearranged time where anyone is touching it or not - the other is set to activate only when someone touches it.

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I believe that all portkeys are one-way. It just wouldn't make sense in my opinion, that you would need to specify a return time when creating a portkey. Besides, the whole essence of two-way travel is returning to where you started. Surely Harry would have ended up back in the center of the maze. Also, why wouldn't Crouch have specified the center of the maze if he had been setting it? Why would he want to give things away by making Harry just pop out of thin air right in front of the audience?
The text quite clearly shows that not all portkeys are one way. The Triwizard cup was a two-way portkey. Whether that was by design or simply a result of it being activated by touch is debatable, but it was clearly set for a round trip.

And Harry did end up right back where he started - at the maze. As we see with the portkeys used in DH, they'll take you to a certain location, but you could end up anywhere within the boundaries of that location. We also see that when Harry and Cedric arrive at the graveyard. Pettigrew was not there waiting for them because he couldn't know exactly where in the graveyard they would arrive - he watched and rushed over to where they were when they did arrive.

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Just quickly now, I thought I'd dispel something that Mr Sleepy Head mentioned a few posts back. Dumbledore was not touching the kettle in his office when it transported Harry and the Weasleys back to GP. It says that they all gathered round his desk and he instructs them to make sure they are touching it. Harry glances up into his eyes, but it does not say that he is touching it as well. I don't believe that you can deccide who a portkey will or won't transport.
Dumbledore was not touching the kettle in his office, that is true. However, he was holding the portkey he created at the Ministry to send Harry back to his office at Hogwarts. He held it out and Harry touched it - they both had their hands on it, but only Harry was transported back to his office.

Quote:
Back to Meesha, in your last post, you mentioned that Dumbledore was just as shocked and confused as everyone. As I can recall, Harry had appeared at the edge of the maze clutching a dead body and yelling "He's Back!!!" through sobs. I think he had every right to be shocked. Also, I don't recall anyone yelling "where did he come from" or anything. No one seemed surprised that people had appeared outside of the maze. My guess is that Dumbledore had already informed them that the winner would be transported to the outside of the maze as soon as they reached the cup.
Actually, no - there was a lot of confusion and screams before Harry announced that Voldemort was back. Harry just laid there in shock listening to the sound of thundering footsteps and screams until Dumbledore got to him.

The text is quite clear on the fact that the Triwizard Cup was not supposed to be a portkey. If the cup was intended to transport the winner to the entrance to the maze, the champions would have been made aware of that. Yet none of the champions were told that - Cedric specifically asks Harry if anyone told him that the cup would be a portkey and Harry says no.

In addition, it is clearly stated on page that it was Voldemort's instruction to turn the Triwizard up into a portkey.

GOF“And what did Lord Voldemort ask you to do?” said Dumbledore.

“He asked me whether I was ready to risk everything for him. I was ready. It was my dream, my greatest ambition, to serve him, to prove myself to him. He told me he needed to place a faithful servant at Hogwarts. A servant who would guide Harry Potter through the Triwizard Tournament without appearing to do so. A servant who would watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master. But first —”

“You needed Alastor Moody,” said Dumbledore. His blue eyes were blazing, though his voice remained calm.


GOFThere was complete silence now, except for Winky’s continued sobs. Then Dumbledore said, “And tonight . . .”

“I offered to carry the Triwizard Cup into the maze before dinner,” whispered Barty Crouch. “Turned it into a Portkey. My master’s plan worked. He is returned to power and I will be honored by him beyond the dreams of wizards.”


Crouch Jr. confesses all under Veritaserum - it was he who turned the cup into a portkey on Voldemort's orders.

The text clearly shows that there are two distinct types of portkeys - just as there were two distinct types of memory charms. The first being the type set to activate at a prearranged time whether anyone is touching it or not is the most common used because it is the safest. There is less risk of exposure by someone picking up the object and being transported by it. That is going to be a one-way trip because it is set to activate at a prearranged time - after that, the portkey expires.

The second type is the touch activated portkey that Crouch uses for the Triwizard tournament. As I said before, this was necessary because there was no way to know the exact time Harry would reach the center of the maze. This was Voldemort's plan to get Harry out of Hogwarts without anyone being aware of it. Nobody but Crouch Jr. - using Moody's magical eye - could see inside the maze so they would have no idea that Harry was not in there. Once Harry had been killed, the cup would be used to transport his body back to the maze so that it would appear that he had been killed as a result of the tournament. Had everything gone according to Voldemort's plan, nobody would ever have known that Harry had even left Hogwarts grounds. That was necessary for Voldemort to keep his return a completely secret - particularly from Dumbledore. That was the whole point of his plan - to prevent anyone from becoming suspicious and figuring out that he had returned - particularly Dumbledore.

It is a valid question as to whether a portkey could be used to transport a dead body without a living person to carry it. Given the parameters set by Voldemort's plan - and after looking through all of that again - I'm inclined to believe that it could. Harry describes not being able to move his hand - or even his finger - from every portkey he used - like his hand was glued to it. So it would have been a simple matter for Voldemort to simply use levitation to put the cup in Harry's hand - all he had to do was get a single finger on the cup and it would have activated to transport the body back to the Maze.

There are problems that came up with the execution of the plan, but those were things that could not have been predicted. Cedric was not supposed to be there - there was no way to predict that Harry would suggest that he and Cedric take the cup together. That type of nobility is something that Voldemort - nor any of his Death Eaters - could understand. Harry was supposed to be alone. Cedric showing up as well was a hitch in the plan, but it wasn't so huge that Voldemort could not have worked around it if he had managed to kill Harry.


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  #58  
Old March 15th, 2009, 6:40 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
We are shown in the text that there are two different types of portkeys. By the same token, there are different types of memory charms - Obliviate removes a memory entirely and is permanent while the Confundus charm merely alters a memory and could be reversed later. There are multiple "modus operandi" for quite a few things in the books - portkeys are only one example of two different things having a similar function.
I think that you misunderstand me. I am saying that we do not indeed need to think of two different functions of the portkey. I can explain all of the portkey related events be defining the spell as thus: You create a portkey for one single journey by giving it a time of departure. I personally don't think that you can compare Obliviate and Confundus, as they perform completely different tasks, in my opinion.


Quote:
That would still be a portkey activated by touch rather than a prearranged time. There is no delay when Harry and Cedric grab the Triwizard cup - they were immediately transported to the graveyard as soon as they touched the cup.
Yes, but my point is, you could put a spell on an object which at the time of being touched makes it a portkey with an immediate time of departure. Hence, there would still be only one porkey spell being used- that which sets the time of departure to right now.

The best analogy I can currently think of is Dumbledore's Age Line in GoF. He obviously uses a hair-growth jinx triggered by the presence of underage wizards, but we wouldn't say that there are two different ways to do the hair-growth jinx, the normal way and by drawing an age-line. Or perhaps you would, in which case we have reached a point of incontrovertible disagreement.
Quote:
That would still be two completely different types of portkeys. The function of each is similar in that they transport a person to another location, but how they are activated is entirely different. One is set to automatically activate at a prearranged time where anyone is touching it or not - the other is set to activate only when someone touches it.
And the second one is simply another spell which utilizes the first. I don't think that you can create a portkey without using the one spell which sets a time.

Quote:
The text quite clearly shows that not all portkeys are one way. The Triwizard cup was a two-way portkey. Whether that was by design or simply a result of it being activated by touch is debatable, but it was clearly set for a round trip.
No, if the text was quite clear, I wouldn't have started this thread. Harry does go from Hogwarts to the graveyard and back, but this could just have easily been two different portkeys, either one by DD and one by Crouch, or if you aren't prepared to accept that, both by Crouch.

Quote:
And Harry did end up right back where he started - at the maze. As we see with the portkeys used in DH, they'll take you to a certain location, but you could end up anywhere within the boundaries of that location. We also see that when Harry and Cedric arrive at the graveyard. Pettigrew was not there waiting for them because he couldn't know exactly where in the graveyard they would arrive - he watched and rushed over to where they were when they did arrive.
If I am to adopt, for a minute, the opinion that Crouch was intentionally sending back Harry, to cover up Voldemort's return, then why would he not specify a more specific point of arrival. If he was trying not to make it suspicious, why would he not direct the portkey to the center of the maze, the boundaries of which are very small. We know this would be possible, as we saw the portkeys at the Quidditch World Cup arrive all at the same spot.

In my opinion, however, such precision to the winner's circle outside the maze was preset. Not by Crouch, but by Dumbledore.



Quote:
Dumbledore was not touching the kettle in his office, that is true. However, he was holding the portkey he created at the Ministry to send Harry back to his office at Hogwarts. He held it out and Harry touched it - they both had their hands on it, but only Harry was transported back to his office.
Right, could anyone post a quote of this so I can read it, not having my books here? I don't disagree with you Meesha, I just hope I can find some way to explain it.


Quote:
Actually, no - there was a lot of confusion and screams before Harry announced that Voldemort was back. Harry just laid there in shock listening to the sound of thundering footsteps and screams until Dumbledore got to him.
Yes, well, he did arrive back with a quite obviously dead Cedric staring face-up with a shocked expression on his face. That would, in my opinion, create its fair share of screams and thundering footsteps.

Quote:
The text is quite clear on the fact that the Triwizard Cup was not supposed to be a portkey. If the cup was intended to transport the winner to the entrance to the maze, the champions would have been made aware of that. Yet none of the champions were told that - Cedric specifically asks Harry if anyone told him that the cup would be a portkey and Harry says no.
Again, since when is the text "quite clear?" Let's not use that term to describe something which we are determining through sheer speculation. Just to add to that, I realize that I tend to sound like something of a jerk in this post, but I assure you, everything I say I do so with utmost respect.

I don't believe that the contestants will need to have been told that the cup was a portkey. I think that if it was only set up to go about half a kilometre or less, it wouldn't have had the same horrible feelings that the long-distance ones evoke. I don't think, therefore, that it was important that the contestants know. They were told their task, and they were given all of the information that they needed. Also, the one who did the explaining of the task was Ludo, who would be more than capable of forgetting to mention such a thing if, indeed, he was supposed to.
Quote:
In addition, it is clearly stated on page that it was Voldemort's instruction to turn the Triwizard up into a portkey.
It is quite clear in this case, yes, but we don't know if he set up one or two portkeys. It was, in my opinion, Dumbledore's spell which transported them to the outside of the maze.

Right, in summing:

Dare I say "it is quite clear" that there is only one type of spell to create a portkey.

All portkeys are one-way, in my opinion.

People were shocked at Diggory's death, not their sudden appearance.

Dumbledore was behind the second portkey journey. If it was Crouch, he would have specified it to the centre of the maze.


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  #59  
Old March 15th, 2009, 8:18 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
I think that you misunderstand me. I am saying that we do not indeed need to think of two different functions of the portkey. I can explain all of the portkey related events be defining the spell as thus: You create a portkey for one single journey by giving it a time of departure. I personally don't think that you can compare Obliviate and Confundus, as they perform completely different tasks, in my opinion.
Actually, both Obliviate and Confundus perform the same task - altering a person's memory. The difference is in whether the memory is removed entirely or just covered with a false memory that can be removed later. Jo discussed this in regards to Hermione altering her parents' memories. There are different types of memory charms - they all perform essentially the same task in different ways.

We see the same with the two types of portkeys. They have the same basic function - to take a person from one place to another. The difference is in how they are activated. One is activated by a prearranged time and will activate whether anyone is touching it or not. The other is activated by touch and will only activate when someone is touching it.

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Yes, but my point is, you could put a spell on an object which at the time of being touched makes it a portkey with an immediate time of departure. Hence, there would still be only one porkey spell being used- that which sets the time of departure to right now.
That would still be an entirely separate type of portkey that is activated by touch. Time is not an issue and, I'm sorry, but that is clearly demonstrated in the text. The Triwizard Cup was not activated by a set time - it was activated by being touched. Likewise, it was reactivated when Harry touched it again to return to Hogwarts.

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The best analogy I can currently think of is Dumbledore's Age Line in GoF. He obviously uses a hair-growth jinx triggered by the presence of underage wizards, but we wouldn't say that there are two different ways to do the hair-growth jinx, the normal way and by drawing an age-line. Or perhaps you would, in which case we have reached a point of incontrovertible disagreement.
I think the type of spell that Dumbledore applied there is debatable since it did not just make the twins' hair grow - it gave them long hair and long beards that were completely gray. Basically, the "age line" made them look old.

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And the second one is simply another spell which utilizes the first. I don't think that you can create a portkey without using the one spell which sets a time.
The text shows otherwise. Time was not a factor with the Triwzard Cup - it activated by being touched, not a prearranged time. We see the same with the two portkeys that Dumbledore created in OOTP - they were activated by touch. This is most clearly demonstrated when Dumbledore sent Harry and the Weasley kids back to Grimmauld Place after Arthur was attacked - he counts down from three to make sure they all touch it together because the portkey activated when they touched it.

That is different from the portkey they use to go to the Quidditch World cup - they all touched it at different times. In fact, Harry almost missed it because he was confused and Arthur had to get his attention so he would be touching it when it activated at the prearranged time. We also see that with the porkeys in DH that arrive at the Burrow without the people who were supposed to use them - they activated at the prearranged time in spite of the fact that nobody was touching them.

Those are entirely different scenarios in regards to how the portkey was activated. Any way you look at it, they are different types of portkeys.

A better analogy than the age line would be the floo network. In DH, we see that an entirely new method has been created to use the floo - Voldemort's regime is forcing Ministry employess to flush themselves down toilets to access the floo network. The typical way to use the floo is to throw powder in a fireplace, but this new method did not involve powder or a fireplace - yet it had a similar funcion in that they would arrive at the fireplaces within the atrium at the Ministry. As with the two different types of portkeys, we are shown two entirely different ways to access the floo network.

Also with the floo network, we are shown that there are two entirely different tasks that can be performed with it. You can use it to travel - sending your entire body through to another location - or you can use it to simply communicate - sending only your head through to that location to talk to someone.

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No, if the text was quite clear, I wouldn't have started this thread. Harry does go from Hogwarts to the graveyard and back, but this could just have easily been two different portkeys, either one by DD and one by Crouch, or if you aren't prepared to accept that, both by Crouch.
I'm sorry, but the text is clear on this issue. Only one object was used and only one spell was placed on that object. Crouch Jr. carried the object into the maze and turned it into a portkey by his own admission. It was a two-way portkey that would go back and forth between the Quidditch Pitch at Hogwarts and the graveyard in Little Hangleton. Whether that was by design or simply a side effect of the portkey being activated by touch is debatable because the text gives evidence that supports both lines of speculation. However, it is quite clear that there was only one portkey being used there and that Crouch Jr. was the one who made it. It was simply a different type of portkey because the type set to activate at a prearranged time would not work for what Crouch needed since there was no way for him to know exactly what time Harry would reach the center of the maze.

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If I am to adopt, for a minute, the opinion that Crouch was intentionally sending back Harry, to cover up Voldemort's return, then why would he not specify a more specific point of arrival. If he was trying not to make it suspicious, why would he not direct the portkey to the center of the maze, the boundaries of which are very small. We know this would be possible, as we saw the portkeys at the Quidditch World Cup arrive all at the same spot.
Because - if it were even possible to set a location that specific - that would have been a very stupid thing for him to do. The center of the maze was safe - no creatures, no further obstacles, no dangers. That was the end - the "winner's circle" so to speak. Returning Harry's body to the center of the maze would have caused suspicion and raised alarm - what could possibly have killed him there?

We don't see any portkeys used to arrive at such a specific location. The portkeys used in DH were simply set to arrive at the Burrow - and they arrived at various locations within the boundaries of the Burrow. The portkey that the Weasleys and Harry used to leave the Quidditch World cup was set to arrive at Stoatshead Hill - and could have dropped them at any location within the boundaries of that. The same applies to Grimmauld Place and Dumbledore's office - that is as specific as the location ever gets. The portkey could arrive at any point within the boundaries of that location.

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In my opinion, however, such precision to the winner's circle outside the maze was preset. Not by Crouch, but by Dumbledore.
There is nothing in the text to support such an assumption. In fact, the text contradicts that completely.


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Right, could anyone post a quote of this so I can read it, not having my books here? I don't disagree with you Meesha, I just hope I can find some way to explain it.
OOTP“Take this Portkey, Harry.”

He held out the golden head of the statue, and Harry placed his hand upon it, past caring what he did next or where he went.


Harry did not take the head of the statue from Dumbledore - he simply placed his hand upon it while Dumbledore was holding it.

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Yes, well, he did arrive back with a quite obviously dead Cedric staring face-up with a shocked expression on his face. That would, in my opinion, create its fair share of screams and thundering footsteps.
That was in the movie. In the book, they didn't realize that Cedric was dead until they reached Harry and examined Cedric's body.

GOFThe face of Cornelius Fudge appeared upside down over Harry; it looked white, appalled.

“My God — Diggory!” it whispered. “Dumbledore — he’s dead!”

The words were repeated, the shadowy figures pressing in on them gasped it to those around them . . . and then others shouted it — screeched it — into the night — “He’s dead!” “He’s dead!” “Cedric Diggory! Dead!”


The shock and screams came well before that and were due to Harry and Cedric showing up outside of the maze. That wasn't supposed to happen.

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Again, since when is the text "quite clear?" Let's not use that term to describe something which we are determining through sheer speculation. Just to add to that, I realize that I tend to sound like something of a jerk in this post, but I assure you, everything I say I do so with utmost respect.
No offense taken. However, the text is quite clear on a lot of things. The only issues to be speculated here are whether Crouch Jr. invented this particular type of portkey or if it was something that already existed and was just rarely used because it presented too much of a risk of exposure and whether the fact that it was a two-way portkey was by design or a side effect of the portkey being activated by touch instead of a prearranged time. Everything else is explained in the text.

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I don't believe that the contestants will need to have been told that the cup was a portkey. I think that if it was only set up to go about half a kilometre or less, it wouldn't have had the same horrible feelings that the long-distance ones evoke. I don't think, therefore, that it was important that the contestants know. They were told their task, and they were given all of the information that they needed. Also, the one who did the explaining of the task was Ludo, who would be more than capable of forgetting to mention such a thing if, indeed, he was supposed to.
The contestant would need to be told if the cup was a portkey so they would know what to do if/when they got to the center of the maze. They had already been given instruction to send sparks in the air if they needed assistance - which would also apply to reaching the cup.

And to address the other issue that was brought up regarding how they would know who won - the answer to that is given in DH. Flesh memories. The same spell used to identify who caught a snitch could be used to identify who first touched the Triwizard Cup. That is much more likely based on what is shown in the text.

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It is quite clear in this case, yes, but we don't know if he set up one or two portkeys. It was, in my opinion, Dumbledore's spell which transported them to the outside of the maze.
It is quite clear that there was only one portkey. One object with one spell placed upon it = one portkey that took Harry on a round trip from Hogwarts to the graveyard and back again.

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Right, in summing:

Dare I say "it is quite clear" that there is only one type of spell to create a portkey.
That is not supported by the text. The only time we ever see a portkey being created is with the two that Dumbledore creates in OOTP - and both of those were touch activated. We do not know what spell was used to create a portkey set to activate at a prearranged time.

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All portkeys are one-way, in my opinion.
That is contradicted by the text. The Triwizard cup was clearly a two-way portkey. One object with one spell placed upon it that took Harry on a round trip.

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People were shocked at Diggory's death, not their sudden appearance.
Again, that is contradicted by the text. They did not know Cedric was dead until they got close enough to examine his body. The shock and screams were due to their sudden appearance because that was not supposed to happen.

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Dumbledore was behind the second portkey journey. If it was Crouch, he would have specified it to the centre of the maze.
Again, the text contradicts that. Dumbledore did not turn the Triwizard Cup into a portkey - Crouch Jr. did. That was clearly explained in the text in Crouch Jr.'s confession.

What we need to remember here is that - in order for your assumption about Dumbledore to be true - it would have to be shown or indicated on page. For example, Dumbledore making a comment about Crouch Jr. altering his spell or Crouch Jr. saying that he added a spell or altered Dumbledore's spell instead of saying that he was the one who turned the cup into a portkey. Or Cedric asking Harry why they weren't transported the entrance of the maze like it was supposed to. Or Bagman explaining that to them when he gave them their instructions. Or even Harry simply speculating about it and someone agreeing or confirming.

The text shows us just the opposite and contradicts all of your assumptions in relation to this theory. It was Crouch Jr. who turned the cup into a portkey - not Dumbledore. We are shown two completely different types of portkeys being used in various situations in GOF, OOTP, and DH - one type activated at a prearranged time and the other type activated by touch. That is further supported by there being different types of spells with similar functions - like memory charms - as well as the different functions and methods of using the floo network. We are given a reason why Voldemort would want Harry's body returned to the Quidditch Pitch in OOTP - he wanted his return to be a complete secret - which is also why the portkey could not return to the center of the maze because there was no danger there.

The only things that are not fully explained are whether Crouch Jr. invented that particular type of portkey out of necessity or whether it always existed and whether it was a two-way portkey by design or simply a side-effect of being activated by touch. Everything else is explained in the text.


ETA -

Another factor in all of this that just occurred to me. Harry had no idea that the cup was a two-way portkey that could return him to Hogwarts. It was the echo of James from Voldemort's wand that told Harry he could use the portkey again. That echo was acting on knowledge gleaned from Voldemort - shared knowledge between the master and the wand. The echo of James would have no means of knowing what Dumbledore had done. This is further proof that it was Voldemort's plan for Crouch Jr. to turn the cup into a two-way portkey so that it could be used to return Harry's dead body back to some general area of the maze so it would appear that he was killed during the task and never left Hogwarts grounds.


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All posts are my opinions and interpretations based on reading the Harry Potter books and interviews with J.K. Rowling.


Last edited by meesha1971; March 15th, 2009 at 8:27 pm.
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Old March 15th, 2009, 10:23 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

OK. Twice, now, I have been misunderstood. I am not sure whether to keep trying or to give up, but I am going to give it one more shot, here goes.

[quote=meesha1971;5257294]Actually, both Obliviate and Confundus perform the same task - altering a person's memory. The difference is in whether the memory is removed entirely or just covered with a false memory that can be removed later. Jo discussed this in regards to Hermione altering her parents' memories. There are different types of memory charms - they all perform essentially the same task in different ways.[quote]

Right, fine. They are the same in as much as Wingardium Leviosa and Accio are the same, as they both move objects. I am afraid that I see them as completely different.

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We see the same with the two types of portkeys. They have the same basic function - to take a person from one place to another. The difference is in how they are activated. One is activated by a prearranged time and will activate whether anyone is touching it or not. The other is activated by touch and will only activate when someone is touching it.
I am telling you, this is assumption. There is no explicit statement that this was a different type of portkey. I am about to try to show you how my theory is plausible, so please read on.

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That would still be an entirely separate type of portkey that is activated by touch. Time is not an issue and, I'm sorry, but that is clearly demonstrated in the text. The Triwizard Cup was not activated by a set time - it was activated by being touched. Likewise, it was reactivated when Harry touched it again to return to Hogwarts.
Right, you say that there is explicit proof. I say there isn't. Here's why:

My theory on the matter is that portkeys are created by one enchantment only. I think that the portkey spells on the Triwizard Cup involved placing a spell that, upon being touched, performed the enchantment and set the time of departure to be right that instant. Would this have created the effect that we saw? Most definitely. Is there explicit evidence that it can't be true? No. So can you actually say that it is clear that this theory is not true? NO! That is speculation, and based on assumptions. Both of our explanations would fit the story to some extent, and would not constitute a plot hole. I believe that my theory addresses more of the facts than yours, which is why I believe that it is true. Am I certain? NO, I can't possibly be certain, and no one can, as the book is not clear on the matter. If Dumbledore was to say, at the conclusion to OotP, something like "yes Harry, they were completely different ways of creating a portkey, which didn't use each other in any way and were in no way related. Willfitz is barking mad and Meesha is most emphatically right." then I would consider the issue "clear."


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The text shows otherwise. Time was not a factor with the Triwzard Cup - it activated by being touched, not a prearranged time. We see the same with the two portkeys that Dumbledore created in OOTP - they were activated by touch. This is most clearly demonstrated when Dumbledore sent Harry and the Weasley kids back to Grimmauld Place after Arthur was attacked - he counts down from three to make sure they all touch it together because the portkey activated when they touched it.
I think you probably have the gist of my explanation by now. If not, I am saying that you do have to specify a time for each portkey, but I believe that there are ways to circumvent this through the method explained above.

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That is different from the portkey they use to go to the Quidditch World cup - they all touched it at different times. In fact, Harry almost missed it because he was confused and Arthur had to get his attention so he would be touching it when it activated at the prearranged time. We also see that with the porkeys in DH that arrive at the Burrow without the people who were supposed to use them - they activated at the prearranged time in spite of the fact that nobody was touching them.
Yes, this is the simplest form of portkey, and represents our initial understanding of them. This is what I believe to be the only type of portkey. You set a time, and at that time, anyone touching it will be transported with it.

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Those are entirely different scenarios in regards to how the portkey was activated. Any way you look at it, they are different types of portkeys.
As I have said, my way of looking at it is that they both use the same spell. I really do hope you understand this time.

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Also with the floo network, we are shown that there are two entirely different tasks that can be performed with it. You can use it to travel - sending your entire body through to another location - or you can use it to simply communicate - sending only your head through to that location to talk to someone.
In essence, your head travels by the floo network, and only your head, because it was the only part of your body in the flames. I don't see this as being different. You obviously can' take the head out of the fire, because it is still attached to the person's body.



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I'm sorry, but the text is clear on this issue. Only one object was used and only one spell was placed on that object. Crouch Jr. carried the object into the maze and turned it into a portkey by his own admission. It was a two-way portkey that would go back and forth between the Quidditch Pitch at Hogwarts and the graveyard in Little Hangleton. Whether that was by design or simply a side effect of the portkey being activated by touch is debatable because the text gives evidence that supports both lines of speculation. However, it is quite clear that there was only one portkey being used there and that Crouch Jr. was the one who made it. It was simply a different type of portkey because the type set to activate at a prearranged time would not work for what Crouch needed since there was no way for him to know exactly what time Harry would reach the center of the maze.
All right, here we go. You once again say that you are clearly right. You are clearly capable of being right. Your theory is clearly supported by the book. But mine is too, and I believe better so.

My opinion on the matter is this. Dumbledore enchanted the cup so that the first person to touch it after Moody would trigger the spell to set up the portkey to the outside of the maze, with the time of departure being right that very instant. Crouch came along and did a similar spell which made the first person go to the graveyard. The cup couldn't take someone to two places at once, so Dumbledore's spell was bumped down the line. Therefore, upon being touched, the cup transported Harry and Ced to the graveyard. Upon being touched again, Dumbledore's spell would activate, and would travel to the outside of the maze.

Your "proof" against such claims: Crouch admitted to creating the portkey to take Harry to the centre of the maze. He still would have admitted it, because it would still be true. You also said that there was clearly only one spell used, which is not explicitly stated, and therefore is not "clear," that the portkey was two-way, which is also not explicitly stated and therefore is not "clear" and that it was a different type of portkey, which is, once again not explicitly stated and therefore not "clear." These things are plausible, but not clear.

Is my theory possible? Yes. Would it have produced the same effects? Yes. Would Crouch still have given the same interview? Yes. Is the theory explicitly proven to be wrong in the text? No. So can we say that it is clearly not the case? NO!

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Because - if it were even possible to set a location that specific - that would have been a very stupid thing for him to do. The center of the maze was safe - no creatures, no further obstacles, no dangers. That was the end - the "winner's circle" so to speak. Returning Harry's body to the center of the maze would have caused suspicion and raised alarm - what could possibly have killed him there?
No, the centre of the maze was not safe, as Harry finished off the spider a few metres from Cedric and the cup. When he slumps to the ground with his leg broken, he thinks of how stupid it is that here he is, so close from the cup, but Cedric was going to win. Cedric tells him to take the cup as he is standing right beside the cup, and Harry is within conversational distance of him. I believe you are clutching at straws here.

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We don't see any portkeys used to arrive at such a specific location.
I beg to differ! The portkey from Stoatshead Hill to the Quidditch World Cup arrives precisely in front of the men in charge of the portkey arrivals, who ticks them off on his clipboard and tells them to move out of the way to make room for another portkey coming to exactly the same location. He then tosses the boot onto a pile of used portkeys.



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There is nothing in the text to support such an assumption.
Note, therefore, that I did not use the term "clearly" but the term "in my opinion."

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That was in the movie. In the book, they didn't realize that Cedric was dead until they reached Harry and examined Cedric's body.

GOFThe face of Cornelius Fudge appeared upside down over Harry; it looked white, appalled.

“My God — Diggory!” it whispered. “Dumbledore — he’s dead!”

The words were repeated, the shadowy figures pressing in on them gasped it to those around them . . . and then others shouted it — screeched it — into the night — “He’s dead!” “He’s dead!” “Cedric Diggory! Dead!”


The shock and screams came well before that and were due to Harry and Cedric showing up outside of the maze. That wasn't supposed to happen.
We don't actually know what the initial shock and screaming is for. In my opinion, it is due to the look of Cedric Diggory, who is probably purple white and is apparently staring straight up with a look of shock on his face. He probably crumpled at a weird angle too. Also, Harry has a mangled leg and is covered in blood. I would say that many of the crowd were already fearing the worst for Cedric, hence the initial screams, and Fudge merely confirmed it. I don't think this is unreasonable.

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The contestant would need to be told if the cup was a portkey so they would know what to do if/when they got to the center of the maze. They had already been given instruction to send sparks in the air if they needed assistance - which would also apply to reaching the cup.
I think the fact that they weren't told specifically what to do when they got to the cup points to this being planned by Dumbledore. They were told that the first one to the cup would be the winner. At this point, I don't think any of them would have shot up sparks, for fear of being disqualified. It seems to me that Cedric and Harry were expecting something to happen when they touched the cup, as they made sure that they touched the cup at exactly the same moment.

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And to address the other issue that was brought up regarding how they would know who won - the answer to that is given in DH. Flesh memories. The same spell used to identify who caught a snitch could be used to identify who first touched the Triwizard Cup. That is much more likely based on what is shown in the text.
Thank you for using the term "likely," I appreciate it. I think that it would be fitting to transport the winner out of the maze upon their victory. I mean imagine if you won the cup, you took in your hands, felt jubilant, then thought "oh great, now I have to figure out my way out of here." You would have to battle your way back through all of the magical creatures and not to mention find your way. Even if they did shoot sparks up and a supervisor came to get them, the long walk would have been very difficult for Harry and, in my opinion, not befitting a Triwizard Champion.


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It is quite clear that there was only one portkey. One object with one spell placed upon it = one portkey that took Harry on a round trip from Hogwarts to the graveyard and back again.
Just to make sure I am clear, no it isn't.



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That is not supported by the text. The only time we ever see a portkey being created is with the two that Dumbledore creates in OOTP - and both of those were touch activated. We do not know what spell was used to create a portkey set to activate at a prearranged time.
Neither is it dispelled by the text.

And I just thought of how the portkey may have taken Harry but not Dumbledore as mentioned above. Perhaps, because Dumbledore was holding the portkey while he created it, it registered him as part of the surroundings, not a person to transport.



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That is contradicted by the text. The Triwizard cup was clearly a two-way portkey. One object with one spell placed upon it that took Harry on a round trip.
That is not a contradiction from the text, that is a contradiction by your assumption.



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Again, that is contradicted by the text. They did not know Cedric was dead until they got close enough to examine his body. The shock and screams were due to their sudden appearance because that was not supposed to happen.
Again, that is only contradicted by your assumption.


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Again, the text contradicts that. Dumbledore did not turn the Triwizard Cup into a portkey - Crouch Jr. did. That was clearly explained in the text in Crouch Jr.'s confession.
Again, no it doesn't. Crouch's confession would still have been accurate if Dumbledore was responsible for one trip and Crouch for the other.

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What we need to remember here is that - in order for your assumption about Dumbledore to be true - it would have to be shown or indicated on page. For example, Dumbledore making a comment about Crouch Jr. altering his spell or Crouch Jr. saying that he added a spell or altered Dumbledore's spell instead of saying that he was the one who turned the cup into a portkey. Or Cedric asking Harry why they weren't transported the entrance of the maze like it was supposed to. Or Bagman explaining that to them when he gave them their instructions. Or even Harry simply speculating about it and someone agreeing or confirming.
No, this is not true. To coin a phrase, "science can not be proven, only disproven." The same goes for these theories on magic. I don't see how you could even raise this point when it applies in equal measure to your own theory. Was that a serious point?

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ETA -

Another factor in all of this that just occurred to me. Harry had no idea that the cup was a two-way portkey that could return him to Hogwarts. It was the echo of James from Voldemort's wand that told Harry he could use the portkey again. That echo was acting on knowledge gleaned from Voldemort - shared knowledge between the master and the wand. The echo of James would have no means of knowing what Dumbledore had done. This is further proof that it was Voldemort's plan for Crouch Jr. to turn the cup into a two-way portkey so that it could be used to return Harry's dead body back to some general area of the maze so it would appear that he was killed during the task and never left Hogwarts grounds.
It depends on what you think that the echoes of the people coming out of the wand. I believe that they were, being dead, all seeing and all knowing. That is my explanation.


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