Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

If there was a second, touch-activated Portkey on the cup, it would have instantly transported Harry and Cedric back to Hogwarts. They simply would not have had an opportunity to let go of the cup before the next charm executed. Since they remained in the graveyard, there couldn't have been a second charm on the cup.

In my opinion, the other option is every bit as valid (I mean, all any of us is doing is guessing the way the magic works). To me, however, only one option fits the canon best, and that is that one portkey charm ends only after the portkey is let go. Simply put, I don't believe that a reader's assumption of how the magic would work is really proof of anything, especially when I see the book indicating something else.

[potter_gleek]

Originally Posted by RavenclawDebate

I dont know if this has already made it on here yet, but my theory has always been that Voldemort wanted to go back to Hogwarts with the Dead Harry Potter to show everyone that he's back. So he ordered Barty to make it possible for him to touch the Port Key, take Mr. Potter's body back, and show the world that we was back. Of course this would be incredibly dangerous, because the ministry was there, Dumbledore was there and plenty of other people are there, but Voldemort had the Death Eaters with him, he could have quelled the second war right in one second, surprising all of the greatest witches and wizards and killing them (and their children) before they even knew what hit them.

I agree but I don't think Voldemort wanted Harry's body when he returned to Hogwarts. Simply the appearance of Voldemort and the Death Eaters would have been enough to stun most of the crowd and with Harry dead I don't think Voldemort would have any fear. He already knows that his Horcruxes are intact and from the portion of the Prophecy Snape had relayed to him, I feel, he would see Harry as his only threat (other than Dumbledore). In his arrogance, he felt he would be able to enter Hogwarts and begin his take over of the Wizarding World. Hence he made sure the cup would be able to return to Hogwarts.

Originally Posted by willfitz

The problem I see with this theory is based on the use of a portkey without any permission or knowledge from Dumbledore. This implies that portkeys are allowed into Hogwarts (and out) at will. Thus if Voldemort really wanted to bring Harry to the graveyard, then bring him back in person and terrorize Hogwarts, he could have picked a much easier time to do it.

I also don't like the concept of the ability to portkey into Hogwarts at will in principle, as it would render the much-discussed inability to apparate into Hogwarts obsolete.

I always assumed that the defence against Portkeys had been taken down for the tournament. Either to allow the winner to return to the entrance of the maze or to allow easy transport for visitors such as ministry representatives. Another theory is that Hogwarts defences are easily bypassed via Portkey and they simply rely on the Ministry regulating the use of them. In OOTP, Dumbledore creates one without appear to take down any defences to get The Weasleys and Harry back to Grimmauld Place; so maybe Hogwarts just never had a defence against them.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by RavenclawDebate

Of course this would be incredibly dangerous, because the ministry was there, Dumbledore was there and plenty of other people are there, but Voldemort had the Death Eaters with him, he could have quelled the second war right in one second, surprising all of the greatest witches and wizards and killing them (and their children) before they even knew what hit them.

I actually think this would be a bad idea.

Many of the attendees were pure bloods and pro-DEs, and i think he wanted to bring as many pure bloods over to his side as he could. He might also accidentally murder a student who supports him, thereby offending people and losing support. Plus, I suspect many potential supporters saw his regime as subjugating those they saw as inferior, but they may not have realized it would involve murder, esp. on that large a scale.

I don't think Voldemort had any plans for the Tri-wizard cup after it brought Harry to him. People would know he returned - at the very least, Snape was at the tournament and would tell Dumbledore when the Dark Mark on his arm summoned him. It's possible Dumbledore meant for the cup to take the victor to the winner's circle, and he charmed it before Moody/Crouch added an additional charm to take Harry to the graveyard, or Dumbledore used the Elder Wand to charm it after it arrived in the graveyard, to return Harry to Hogwarts.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I don't see how it makes sense on a practical level either; hypothetically, if what you say could be true, why on earth would Dumbledore just make a portkey and hope Harry, only in his 4th year of training, would escape Voldemort and a bunch of DEs instead of being tortured and killed? If, as you say, Fawkes could relay information about the graveyard and move Harry & Voldemort via the cage, how does that make sense in the big picture -- Dumbledore would have apparated to the graveyard with Order members if he had that kind of information, because his main concern was keeping Harry alive until he figured out how to stop Voldemort.

The same question could be applied to SS and CoS. Why does Dumbledore let Harry face Quirrellmort and Diarymort by himself? Fawkes could have simply teleported Dumbledore straight into the chamber to help Harry. Dumbledore has his reasons for not stepping in.

Voldemort thought that he had removed Harry from Dumbledore’s protection–he mentions that twice. If Dumbledore shows up from such a distance, it would tip Voldemort off that Dumbledore must have a pretty powerful wand.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I don't think Dumbledore is responsible for any of it, because if he knew what was going on, he would have gone there with Order members, as he did in OOTP.

In OotP Dumbledore was already at the Ministry when Voldemort shows up. It was a spur-of-the-moment situation and didn’t have the scheming from Dumbledore that the other three encounters did. Dumbledore came to back up the Order and Voldemort decided to step in at the last moment.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I still see a problem in that there is nothing in the books to remotely suggest that Dumbledore cast a spell through Fawkes to make a portkey out of the Triwizard Cup.

Like I said–that could be one option. The other is that Fawkes is able to let Dumbledore know what is happening, and Dumbledore uses the Elder Wand to cast the spells from Hogwarts.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Dumbledore does not seem to have known that. His reaction in that passage suggests it was unexpected, though he momentarily realizes what that means for Harry.

This is the type of Dark magic that isn’t going to just come to someone off the top of their head. Dumbledore had been studying the particular situation with Harry for years. His gleam of triumph comes when Harry tells him Voldemort used his blood–confirming what Dumbledore had hoped for, as I read it.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Okay, I'd be willing to consider that, at least, but making Harry dodge killing curses on his way to the portkey did nothing to try his strength compared to being 'phoenixed' would have.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by being “phoenixed” or how that would try Harry’s strength. Dumbledore knowingly let Harry face Quirrell, a full grown wizard (teaching DADA), with Voldemort stuck in the back of his head–Harry ended up in the hospital for several days. In CoS Dumbledore lets him face Riddle and a full grown basilisk–by which he gets bitten and nearly dies. I’m not seeing much difference in GoF.

Originally Posted by willfitz

And that aside, I think we can all agree that Dumbledore would much preferred to have been able to convince Fudge, then and there, that Voldemort was back, which he could have done simply from his safe vantage point.

I don’t think Dumbledore was expecting such a reaction from Fudge. His first and foremost goal was to get Harry back. With Harry and Snape’s testimony--I don’t think he was counting on catching Voldemort’s insider--he thought that would be enough to convince Fudge. Turned out it was not.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Further to that, though, this still, I believe, goes against JKR's vision. Dumbledore's motives aside, he still would have had complete and utter power at that moment far beyond what I believe are the restrictions imposed by the author on his characters. The concept of a wizard being able to cast magic which is indefensible against another wizard without running any risk of being counter-attacked is what I take issue with much more than Dumbledore not using that power.

But any wizard could sneak up behind another and cast magic that is indefensible and without running the risk of counter-attack--there is nothing about magic that precludes guerilla warfare. I think magic has limits (which I agree is needed and intended by the author) especially when based on distance for two reasons: 1) I think the power decreases over distance (inverse square law, perhaps?) and 2) I think the magic requires visual contact for most wizards because the spell has to be aimed.

The charms Dumbledore casts are rather simple ones–some type of Hover charm and the Portkey charm. The Elder Wand could possibly boost the power, allowing Dumbledore to reach the graveyard. With Fawkes help, Dumbledore could visualize and aim the spells.

Originally Posted by willfitz

While many things can be pseudo-justified as being indirectly hinted at in the books, this ability on Fawkes' part would be utterly without precedent, in my opinion.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, in that case. I’ve offered several examples where this ability of Fawkes’ could be operating–and one solid one (Dumbledore knowing Umbridge was coming) which you do not recognize. I don’t think there’s much more we can do to reconcile our differences of opinion.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Yes, based on Dumbledore's assumption that it's probably Umbridge, he would use feminine pronouns. I still think, based on the way it's written, that it's an assumption on Dumbledore's part.

Originally Posted by willfitz

How could we possibly endeavour to draw this conclusion absolutely. Perhaps I'm missing something from the text. Would his actions have differed had it been Fudge himself, or anyone else who would have prompted a warning from Fawkes? The way I read it, the warning implied that someone unwanted was coming. Umbridge was the most logical candidate, but I don't think that any actions taken were predicated on Dumbledore knowing exactly who it was.

I agree that Dumbledore’s actions would have been identical whether it was Fudge, Umbridge, Filch, etc. But if he didn’t know who it actually was, he would have said “Someone’s coming.” Why be so specific if it wasn’t Umbridge? I see no reason for Dumbledore (or JKR) to lie about who was approaching his office. And since all he had to do in this situation would be to change the gargoyle’s password, I think JKR sets it up this way so that we can see the connection between their two minds. imo.

Originally Posted by willfitz

But this is exactly what seems to be the sticking point, here. I don't believe, and at this point I have not seen anything to persuade me, that there is any relaying of information to Dumbledore telepathically.

Then where is Dumbledore getting information about so much of what’s going on at Hogwarts? Does he have a different, duplicate method than Fawkes for “having eyes and ears all over Hogwarts castle?”

Originally Posted by willfitz

And we see precisely why it is of use for Fawkes to have his abilities in CoS, when he saves Harry from certain death!

But why wouldn’t Fawkes just bring Dumbledore there, instead of the Sorting Hat? I believe Fawkes is very intelligent, but I don’t think he could quite figure out just what Harry would need in that situation without Dumbledore’s direction. Dumbledore and Fawkes are just too coordinated in purpose, as I see it, for some sort of unspoken communication not to be occurring. Fawkes behaves too much according to how Dumbledore’s brilliant mind works for me to believe they don’t have such a connection.


---------------

And then there are the two theoretical touch-activated Portkey charms on the Cup. From the evidence now, it seems an impossibility to me that there could have been a second touch-activated charm on the cup since it would have executed the exact instant that the other charm terminated because they were holding on to the cup handles. Since they were not transported back to Hogwarts, there could not have been a second touch-activated Portkey charm. Therefore, the second charm had to be cast while the Cup was in the graveyard.

I think the famous quote from Sherlock Holmes now applies to this situation: when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. The Cup was turned into a Portkey while in the graveyard. How? Although I have my own take on the situation, I’m quite open to new suggestions.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I’m not quite sure what you mean by being “phoenixed” or how that would try Harry’s strength. Dumbledore knowingly let Harry face Quirrell, a full grown wizard (teaching DADA), with Voldemort stuck in the back of his head–Harry ended up in the hospital for several days. In CoS Dumbledore lets him face Riddle and a full grown basilisk–by which he gets bitten and nearly dies. I’m not seeing much difference in GoF.

Sorry, allow me to clarify. First of all, of course, the matter of whether Dumbledore did indeed intend for Harry to enter the trapdoor is by no means confirmed, I don't think. Dumbledore intending for him to accomplish those feats in the first two books is conjecture from Harry, though the notion is never overturned.

However, back to what I was trying to say- the chase to the cup, dodging death by inches, isn't the character-building exercise to which you are referring, I am guessing. Voldemort could have eliminated this huge risk factor by simply having Fawkes teleport him to safety (what I dubbed "Phoenixing"). This would not cause Harry to miss an opportunity to duel with Voldemort.

I still don't feel comfortable with the notion that Dumbledore intended for Harry to be tortured, however.

I don’t think Dumbledore was expecting such a reaction from Fudge. His first and foremost goal was to get Harry back.

Fair enough, but you are essentially suggesting that Dumbledore felt there was nothing to be gained by capturing Voldemort and his followers, which wouldn't have taken that much time or effort if your theory was correct.

But any wizard could sneak up behind another and cast magic that is indefensible and without running the risk of counter-attack--there is nothing about magic that precludes guerilla warfare. I think magic has limits (which I agree is needed and intended by the author) especially when based on distance for two reasons: 1) I think the power decreases over distance (inverse square law, perhaps?) and 2) I think the magic requires visual contact for most wizards because the spell has to be aimed.

But not Dumbledore, apparently. Just because it's only one character with omnipotence, it doesn't make it consistent with JKR's ideals, in my opinion. To your first point, there are numerous methods available for protecting yourself from being snuck up on which are presented in the books, the Sneakoscope perhaps the best example in terms of a device, but there is literally no chance of protecting yourself against a wizard who can perform magic from a different part of the country.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, in that case. I’ve offered several examples where this ability of Fawkes’ could be operating–and one solid one (Dumbledore knowing Umbridge was coming) which you do not recognize. I don’t think there’s much more we can do to reconcile our differences of opinion.

My issue is that though you provide instances where Dumbledore could have been using the ability to read Fawkes' mind, there is nothing in the books which makes me believe that this needs to be the case. Essentially, I'm not really prepared to accept new magic which is not directly introduced in the books unless it is implied through deduction, and in this case, I don't believe it is.

I agree that Dumbledore’s actions would have been identical whether it was Fudge, Umbridge, Filch, etc. But if he didn’t know who it actually was, he would have said “Someone’s coming.”

I'm not sold on that. If it were me, I probably would have said the same thing, given I would have had Umbridge in mind as the person for whom the warning would be sent (though it could well have been for someone else).

Then where is Dumbledore getting information about so much of what’s going on at Hogwarts? Does he have a different, duplicate method than Fawkes for “having eyes and ears all over Hogwarts castle?”

Yes, many. Portraits and ghosts, for starters.

But why wouldn’t Fawkes just bring Dumbledore there, instead of the Sorting Hat?

That is a question which has numerous possible answers. Perhaps Fawkes can only sense things in Hogwarts (due to some connection with Hogwarts), or perhaps he simply didn't think that Dumbledore could be prepared for the encounter, or perhaps Dumbledore indeed did leave instructions in preparation for Harry going into the chamber. The most likely option, for me, is that Fawkes wasn't able to communicate with Dumbledore and thus didn't know where he was.

And then there are the two theoretical touch-activated Portkey charms on the Cup. From the evidence now, it seems an impossibility to me that there could have been a second touch-activated charm on the cup since it would have executed the exact instant that the other charm terminated because they were holding on to the cup handles.

I have yet to discern exactly why you feel it is impossible that a portkey charm does not finish executing until after the object has been let go. As far as I can remember, no part of the books renders this an impossibility, though I welcome counterexamples.

I think the famous quote from Sherlock Holmes now applies to this situation: when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

I agree, and I think it is abundantly clear that we all are employing this same strategy. Divergences are caused by differences in what we deem impossible.

I view the abilities ascribed to Fawkes to be impossible because they violate the vision of the author. Why you view the above as impossible is, as I say, beyond me.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

The same question could be applied to SS and CoS. Why does Dumbledore let Harry face Quirrellmort and Diarymort by himself? Fawkes could have simply teleported Dumbledore straight into the chamber to help Harry. Dumbledore has his reasons for not stepping in.

As others have noted, this is conjecture on Harry's part. I think Dumbledore did allow the trio a lot of room to investigate on their own, but he also seems to keep a pretty close watch on them all. When things get serious (as in life threatening), if Dumbledore is aware or suspicious of the danger, he shows up, including book 1. In book 2, he was not physically at Hogwarts when the final confrontation took place.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Voldemort thought that he had removed Harry from Dumbledore’s protection–he mentions that twice. If Dumbledore shows up from such a distance, it would tip Voldemort off that Dumbledore must have a pretty powerful wand.

Sorry, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me. How would Dumbledore's apparating to the graveyard give Voldemort any indication of the power of Dumbledore's wand? Apparition can take place over great distances, and possession of a wand of any type is all that's needed.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

In OotP Dumbledore was already at the Ministry when Voldemort shows up. It was a spur-of-the-moment situation and didn’t have the scheming from Dumbledore that the other three encounters did. Dumbledore came to back up the Order and Voldemort decided to step in at the last moment.

In OOTP, Dumbledore already knew from Snape that Harry had seen a "vision" of Voldemort torturing Sirius, and Snape had contacted Sirius at Grimmauld. So Dumbledore knew Voldemort was involved in drawing Harry to the Department of Mysteries. Dumbledore came to protect Harry regardless of when Voldy showed up, and I'm sure Dumbledore had guessed he would.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Like I said–that could be one option. The other is that Fawkes is able to let Dumbledore know what is happening, and Dumbledore uses the Elder Wand to cast the spells from Hogwarts.

Sorry, but there's just nothing in the books to support Dumbledore casting a spell through Fawkes from a telepathic link to a feather. It just seems to go against all logic, even when factoring in the magical context.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

This is the type of Dark magic that isn’t going to just come to someone off the top of their head. Dumbledore had been studying the particular situation with Harry for years. His gleam of triumph comes when Harry tells him Voldemort used his blood–confirming what Dumbledore had hoped for, as I read it.

I don't think Dumbledore "hoped for" the blood use. From the description in the book, Dumbledore stands up so quickly that Harry is startled; Dumbledore rushes around the desk and makes Harry show him his arm. To me, this says that Dumbledore did not anticipate this move, and secondly, wanted to confirm that Harry's blood really was used because he realized if true that this could be something to save Harry in the end.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I agree that Dumbledore’s actions would have been identical whether it was Fudge, Umbridge, Filch, etc. But if he didn’t know who it actually was, he would have said “Someone’s coming.” Why be so specific if it wasn’t Umbridge? I see no reason for Dumbledore (or JKR) to lie about who was approaching his office. And since all he had to do in this situation would be to change the gargoyle’s password, I think JKR sets it up this way so that we can see the connection between their two minds. imo.

I think it's important we not ignore the wording used in Dumbledore's dialog:

OOTP, Chapter 22, page 474
"it is Fawkes's warning," said Dumbldore, catching the feather as it fell. "She must know you're out of your beds....Minerva, go and head her off - tell her any story - "

The phrasing "she must know" is indicative of speculation -- admittedly a very good guess, as Dumbledore knows well how Umbrige conducts herself. But "must know" is by its nature a speculative phrase.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Sorry, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me. How would Dumbledore's apparating to the graveyard give Voldemort any indication of the power of Dumbledore's wand? Apparition can take place over great distances, and possession of a wand of any type is all that's needed.

Well, he wouldn't be able to apparate out of Hogwarts unless he first undid the enchantments, but that would have nothing to do with the wand, either, as it seems fairly trivial for him. But you're right. In addition, he could have used the phoenix to get there, which also would have nothing to do with his wand.

Sorry, but there's just nothing in the books to support Dumbledore casting a spell through Fawkes from a telepathic link to a feather. It just seems to go against all logic, even when factoring in the magical context.

In addition, the feather is present in Voldemort's wand during the entire 5th and 6th books. What would make the connection between Harry's wand and Voldemort's so special as to suddenly give Fawkes the ability to telepathically link Dumbledore to its location? Why couldn't Dumbledore and Fawkes join powers to perform magic on Voldemort from a distance all through OotP and HBP?

[horcrux4]

If it was possible to perform magic over considerable distances I think we would have seen some evidence of it in the books, and I can't think of any. We don't know exactly where Little Hangleton was, but it was in England and Hogwarts is in Scotland, so we are talking of a very considerable distance. To me, it is very improbable that Dumbledore, even with the assistance of the Elder Wand, could have cast a Portkey spell with such accuracy to a place which Fawkes at best was only aware of through his ex-feather. He couldn't have guaranteed that Harry would be able to escape Voldemort and get to the Cup, which he was only aware would return him to Hogwarts when James told him so.

It still seems more reasonable to me that there was a second Portkey spell already on the Cup to return the winner outside the maze and that this spell became activated once Harry and Cedric let go of the Cup. I can buy the idea that a Portkey spell ends when you let go of the Portkey more easily than that Dumbledore was able to cast an accurate spell over 200-300 miles.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

However, back to what I was trying to say- the chase to the cup, dodging death by inches, isn't the character-building exercise to which you are referring, I am guessing. Voldemort could have eliminated this huge risk factor by simply having Fawkes teleport him to safety (what I dubbed "Phoenixing"). This would not cause Harry to miss an opportunity to duel with Voldemort.

Why would Voldemort have anything to do with Fawkes?

Originally Posted by willfitz

I still don't feel comfortable with the notion that Dumbledore intended for Harry to be tortured, however.

If you were DD and you had two choices: 1) Harry has to endure a few possible rounds of the Cruciatus curse or 2) Eventually die a certain death. Which would you choose?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Fair enough, but you are essentially suggesting that Dumbledore felt there was nothing to be gained by capturing Voldemort and his followers, which wouldn't have taken that much time or effort if your theory was correct.

He let him go in OotP as well. With the power of the Elder Wand he could have captured LV.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yes, many. Portraits and ghosts, for starters.

Just realized something--I don’t recall there being portraits or ghosts in the dormitories. That could be a lapse in memory–does anyone remember a reference?

And if they could give DD all the information he needed, how could he not know about the Chamber of Secrets?

But why wouldn’t Fawkes just bring Dumbledore there, instead of the Sorting Hat?

Originally Posted by willfitz

That is a question which has numerous possible answers. Perhaps Fawkes can only sense things in Hogwarts (due to some connection with Hogwarts), ...

The only connection Fawkes has with Hogwarts is DD–we see that when he leaves after DD’s death.

Originally Posted by willfitz

...or perhaps he simply didn't think that Dumbledore could be prepared for the encounter,

As I’ve said before, although Fawkes is very intelligent for an animal, judging DD’s readiness for anything would have been beyond his ability to assess. One of the reasons that I feel there is some kind of connection between DD and Fawkes is because Fawkes behaves very much as DD would in many situations and I can’t see an animal being capable of that level of thought independently.

Originally Posted by willfitz

...or perhaps Dumbledore indeed did leave instructions in preparation for Harry going into the chamber. The most likely option, for me, is that Fawkes wasn't able to communicate with Dumbledore and thus didn't know where he was.

Fawkes leads Harry, et al, straight to DD (in McGonagall’s office) after they get out of the Chamber. He knew exactly where DD was.

Originally Posted by willfitz

I have yet to discern exactly why you feel it is impossible that a portkey charm does not finish executing until after the object has been let go.

Apparently the Portkey glows blue when active:

DH: Fallen Warrior “Hagrid!” said Ted Tonks warningly, as the hairbrush glowed bright blue, and Hagrid only just got his forefinger to it in time.

Which indicates it is finished when it stops glowing, not when the traveler lets go of the object.

DH: Fallen Warrior Throwing aside the no longer glowing hairbrush, Harry stood up, swaying slightly, and saw Mrs. Weasley and Ginny running down the steps by the back door as Hagrid, who had also collapsed on landing, clambered laboriously to his feet.

It doesn’t make sense that someone could walk around with the object for sometime after the transport and the Portkey has not finished executing the charm.

Once the blue glow stops, if there were another touch-activated charm on the cup it would activate instantly because the user would not have time to let go--especially, as in Harry and Cedric's case, they were gripping the handles to start with.

Originally Posted by willfitz

As far as I can remember, no part of the books renders this an impossibility, though I welcome counterexamples.

No part of the book shows an object with double Portkey spells on it either. And there is no evidence that the Cup would transport the winners outside the maze.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

As others have noted, this is conjecture on Harry's part. I think Dumbledore did allow the trio a lot of room to investigate on their own, but he also seems to keep a pretty close watch on them all. When things get serious (as in life threatening), if Dumbledore is aware or suspicious of the danger, he shows up, including book 1. In book 2, he was not physically at Hogwarts when the final confrontation took place.

From what I recall, you’re the one that brought up the idea that DD facilitates Harry’s adventure. End of this post.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Sorry, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me. How would Dumbledore's apparating to the graveyard give Voldemort any indication of the power of Dumbledore's wand? Apparition can take place over great distances, and possession of a wand of any type is all that's needed.

Seems there’s a limit on the distance one can Apparate, emphasis mine:

DH: Malfoy Manor Harry knew it; his scar was bursting with the pain of it, and he could feel Voldemort flying through the sky from far away, over a dark and stormy sea, and soon he would be close enough to Apparate to them, and Harry could see no way out.

Originally Posted by willfitz

In addition, the feather is present in Voldemort's wand during the entire 5th and 6th books. What would make the connection between Harry's wand and Voldemort's so special as to suddenly give Fawkes the ability to telepathically link Dumbledore to its location?

It's special enough to cause phoenix song to occur when the cores connect. I can see that circumstance having other effects.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Why couldn't Dumbledore and Fawkes join powers to perform magic on Voldemort from a distance all through OotP and HBP?

For Harry to stand a chance of surviving the death of his horcrux, Voldemort had to be the one to kill him. To take Voldemort out of the equation would have been a death sentence for Harry.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

He let him go in OotP as well. With the power of the Elder Wand he could have captured LV.

Actually, at best, with the power of the Elder Wand, he could have avoided being defeated (something of which he took full advantage, of course).

Just realized something--I don’t recall there being portraits or ghosts in the dormitories. That could be a lapse in memory–does anyone remember a reference?

I don't think there were any in the dormitories, actually, and it would certainly keep a sense of privacy.

And if they could give DD all the information he needed, how could he not know about the Chamber of Secrets?

Why would the portraits know about the entrance to the Chamber?

Fawkes leads Harry, et al, straight to DD (in McGonagall’s office) after they get out of the Chamber. He knew exactly where DD was.

Yes. In Hogwarts. I have already stated that I am more than willing to assume that Fawkes can sense things throughout Hogwarts as if he has eyes an ears everywhere.

Apparently the Portkey glows blue when active:Which indicates it is finished when it stops glowing, not when the traveler lets go of the object.

At best, we could say that it stops glowing after it has finished transporting someone. When it stops being a portkey is anyone's guess, still. You choose to assume that blue glowing indicates that it is still a portkey, but that is by no means stated in the book.

No part of the book shows an object with double Portkey spells on it either. And there is no evidence that the Cup would transport the winners outside the maze.

No indeed, but it seems to be implied, to me, and fits. I think that I've gone into this in quite a bit of detail earlier.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

As I’ve said before, although Fawkes is very intelligent for an animal, judging DD’s readiness for anything would have been beyond his ability to assess. One of the reasons that I feel there is some kind of connection between DD and Fawkes is because Fawkes behaves very much as DD would in many situations and I can’t see an animal being capable of that level of thought independently.

Fawkes isn't an ordinary creature, he's a magical one, and as we've seen with all the magical creatures in HP, many are quite smart. Crookshanks, for example, is trying to tell Sirius that Scabbers isn't really a rat and tries to capture him & bring him back to Sirius (who thinks Crookshanks was the most intelligent of its kind that he'd ever seen). Owls can find recipients of their messages without any help from the sender. So are we really surprised -- given the extraordinary powers a Phoenix possesses -- that there would be a higher intelligence level as well?

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

And as I see it DD is taking over and guiding the story at the same place I believe he enters the scene in the graveyard--which is too much of a coincidence for me. So, yes, we will have to agree to disagree, but I like the thoughts you bring to the table and have enjoyed discussing them with you.

Me too.

I don't think Fawkes was physically there. I think Fawkes was still at Hogwarts but because of the power exuded by the twin cores Fawkes was able to connect to what was going on and relay that to DD.

The problem I have is that there is just too much to account for in this theory for it to work for me.

Firstly we have to except that Fawkes has the ability to sense the feathers within Harry and Voldemort's wands, and extract information from them to know exactly where they are and all that is happening in the graveyard. Secondly that Fawkes can relay all of this to Dumbledore via some form of telepathy. And lastly that Dumbledore can perfom magic at such a great distance not knowing the exact location of the object is that he is placing the charm upon.

A far more simple explanation to me, is that the Triwizard Cup was already a Portkey meant to transport the winner out of the maze.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Why would Voldemort have anything to do with Fawkes?

I just realized I never responded to this earlier...

My understanding was that in your mind, Fawkes is able to sense what is going on in the graveyard, not by being there, but simply because his feathers are there. But his feather goes everywhere with Voldemort for years after the graveyard scene, meaning that the situation in the graveyard would not be unique- Dumbledore should, by this theory, have been able to cast magic on Voldemort any time he had his wand on him, through this bridged connection from Dumbledore's mind to Fawkes' mind to Fawkes' feather.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Actually, at best, with the power of the Elder Wand, he could have avoided being defeated (something of which he took full advantage, of course).

But this is one of the problems with never seeing DD test the limits of the Elder Wand. We really don't know how powerful it is. Knowing that DD had a compelling reason not to defeat LV--not even to capture him--could severely curb the power that he would use during the duel. The only time we see it do anything extraordinary is at the very end of the book when it mends Harry's wand--something no other wand in the world could do. What else is it capable of that no other wand can do?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Actually, at best, with the power of the Elder Wand, he could have avoided being defeated (something of which he took full advantage, of course).

Agreed. I wonder how they keep Peeves out.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yes. In Hogwarts. I have already stated that I am more than willing to assume that Fawkes can sense things throughout Hogwarts as if he has eyes an ears everywhere.

Fawkes shows up at the Ministry just in time to save DD from an AK. There is no evidence that the bird was hanging around waiting for that to happen--he must have eyes and ears tuned to more than just Hogwarts.

Originally Posted by willfitz

At best, we could say that it stops glowing after it has finished transporting someone. When it stops being a portkey is anyone's guess, still. You choose to assume that blue glowing indicates that it is still a portkey, but that is by no means stated in the book.

It is stated in the book and I've given the reference above. The blue glow occurs when it activates--we see that when Harry and Hagrid leave the Tonk's. The blue glow is gone when they arrive at their destination-how is that not an indication that it is deactivated?

What if someone made their ring into a timed Portkey? Under your theory, after they were transported, they could keep that ring on for years--you're saying it's still a Portkey until they take it off? This doesn't make much sense to me.

Originally Posted by willfitz

No indeed, but it seems to be implied, to me, and fits. I think that I've gone into this in quite a bit of detail earlier.

I think there are some good reasons for it to take the winner to the judges stand, but nowhere does any character imply that that is the case. And why does JKR obscure it so much? I just cannot accept that she would leave such a huge gap in her explanations by mistake.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Fawkes isn't an ordinary creature, he's a magical one, and as we've seen with all the magical creatures in HP, many are quite smart. Crookshanks, for example, is trying to tell Sirius that Scabbers isn't really a rat and tries to capture him & bring him back to Sirius (who thinks Crookshanks was the most intelligent of its kind that he'd ever seen). Owls can find recipients of their messages without any help from the sender. So are we really surprised -- given the extraordinary powers a Phoenix possesses -- that there would be a higher intelligence level as well?

I believe what Fawkes does so mirrors DD thinking, that there is something else going on. Since he is so extraordinarily magical, I don't see it being out of the realm of possibility that he can communicate with DD magically and without sensory input as we perceive it.

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

The problem I have is that there is just too much to account for in this theory for it to work for me.

Firstly we have to except that Fawkes has the ability to sense the feathers within Harry and Voldemort's wands, and extract information from them to know exactly where they are and all that is happening in the graveyard. Secondly that Fawkes can relay all of this to Dumbledore via some form of telepathy. And lastly that Dumbledore can perfom magic at such a great distance not knowing the exact location of the object is that he is placing the charm upon.

A far more simple explanation to me, is that the Triwizard Cup was already a Portkey meant to transport the winner out of the maze.

I'm not sure how to convey my next explanation. I'm also trying to look at this and suss out author's motive to some degree by examining what she has written and why. She is so obscure about what is actually going on with the Cup that it raises my suspicions that she is hiding something. Why does she wait until the last book to tell us that Portkeys glow blue when activated? That would seem a very obvious feature to describe when we see all the other Portkeys used. Yet it slams the door on a return, touch-activated Portkey charm on the Cup in the graveyard.

Why write it that way when it could be so easy just to show us stacked Portkey charms working as they did in the graveyard? If we are forced to consider how the Cup once again becomes a Portkey, then we start to really examine every detail of what happens between Portkey transports. And doing that could lead us to what she is hiding--which I think is the extraordinary power of the Elder Wand.

Originally Posted by willfitz

My understanding was that in your mind, Fawkes is able to sense what is going on in the graveyard, not by being there, but simply because his feathers are there. But his feather goes everywhere with Voldemort for years after the graveyard scene, meaning that the situation in the graveyard would not be unique- Dumbledore should, by this theory, have been able to cast magic on Voldemort any time he had his wand on him, through this bridged connection from Dumbledore's mind to Fawkes' mind to Fawkes' feather.

I must humbly apologize--I was tweaking you:

Originally Posted by willfitz *
Voldemort could have eliminated this huge risk factor by simply having Fawkes teleport him to safety (what I dubbed "Phoenixing").

I think you meant Dumbledore in the sentence above.

Originally Posted by horcrux4

If it was possible to perform magic over considerable distances I think we would have seen some evidence of it in the books, and I can't think of any.

I haven't yet either, but there are examples of one-off magic. The EW repairing Harry's wand, for instance.

Originally Posted by horcrux4

We don't know exactly where Little Hangleton was, but it was in England and Hogwarts is in Scotland, so we are talking of a very considerable distance.

And two hundreds miles from Privet Drive, but that isn't much more help.

Originally Posted by horcrux4

To me, it is very improbable that Dumbledore, even with the assistance of the Elder Wand, could have cast a Portkey spell with such accuracy to a place which Fawkes at best was only aware of through his ex-feather.

Improbable, yes. Impossible, no.

Originally Posted by horcrux4

He couldn't have guaranteed that Harry would be able to escape Voldemort and get to the Cup, which he was only aware would return him to Hogwarts when James told him so.

DD couldn't guarantee Harry would survive any of his other escapades either, but he didn't put a stop to them.

Originally Posted by horcrux4

It still seems more reasonable to me that there was a second Portkey spell already on the Cup to return the winner outside the maze and that this spell became activated once Harry and Cedric let go of the Cup. I can buy the idea that a Portkey spell ends when you let go of the Portkey more easily than that Dumbledore was able to cast an accurate spell over 200-300 miles.

And I freely give up such restraints on Fawkes and DD's abilities for something that explains how Harry and Voldemort were levitated to precisely the position that would give Harry the best chance to escape; that explains how Harry perceives the injunction (Don't break the connection) at the exact moment when he needs to force the brother wands to do battle; that explains how the echo-folk know that the Cup is a Portkey that will take Harry back to Hogwarts and that explains how the Cup became the Portkey that saves Harry's life.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But this is one of the problems with never seeing DD test the limits of the Elder Wand. We really don't know how powerful it is. Knowing that DD had a compelling reason not to defeat LV--not even to capture him--could severely curb the power that he would use during the duel. The only time we see it do anything extraordinary is at the very end of the book when it mends Harry's wand--something no other wand in the world could do. What else is it capable of that no other wand can do?

Well, it isn't really shown in the books, is it. What we know, though, is that a)it doesn't allow him to apparate through anti-apparition enchantments (see the cave in HBP), and b) it doesn't automatically defeat another wizard, nor apparently stop them from being bested in a duel (see Grindelwald/Dumbledore). It does seem to enhance the effects of spells, such as reparo, as you point out.

The way I read it, the Elder Wand doesn't get to circumvent any rules which normal wands come up against. No sort of superpowers, such as being able to perform magic which would be impossible normally, or being able to perform magic regardless of distance, is ever indicated.

Agreed. I wonder how they keep Peeves out.

I'm going to go ahead and assume you were referring to a different part of my post.

Fawkes shows up at the Ministry just in time to save DD from an AK. There is no evidence that the bird was hanging around waiting for that to happen--he must have eyes and ears tuned to more than just Hogwarts.

Interesting. It makes me wonder why he never came to help Dumbledore and Harry in the cave in HBP. Is it necessary for him to know where he is looking in order to find Dumbledore?

I have a new theory for this. Perhaps it isn't a matter of having eyes and ears everywhere, but rather a matter of having a superpowered x-ray telescope and one, similarly effected set of ears. In other words, perhaps Fawkes was able to see and hear anything anywhere, but only in one place at a time. If he knew that things were going on in the Ministry, for example, he could have watched the ministry, and thus been able to jump in when he saw need.

In Harry's second year, it could be that his duty was to monitor the school, and so he wasn't able to keep track of Dumbledore's whereabouts. That would explain his actions in bringing the hat instead of Dumbledore.

It is stated in the book and I've given the reference above.

I believe we are talking about the stating of two different things. I agree with every objective claim you have made: the portkey glows blue when it begins to move, and stops glowing while it is transporting. I do not agree that this directly implies that the object stops being a portkey before being released, because the book is missing any statement that the portkey is only a portkey while it is glowing blue.

In fact, I think that this is directly contradicted if we want to read into the text a little deeper. In his confession, Crouch Jr. says

Veritaserum I ...turned [the cup] into a Portkey

...when he placed it in the maze. Meanwhile, the cup is never described as glowing blue. In addition, in the Seven Potters, Ted Tonks says first

the Seven Potters "the Portkey's through here."

Then...

the Seven Potters "That's the Portkey."

A little while later, we read

the Seven Potters "Hagrid!" said Ted Tonks warningly, as the hairbrush glowed bright blue, and Hagrid only just got his forefinger to it in time.

All of this, among other examples of course, goes to show that the Portkey is a Portkey before it glows blue. Why can it not continue to be, after? To me, the blue glow is simply part of the enchantment, designed to warn of its imminent departure. There is no reason why we might expect it to continue glowing after reaching its destination, as that would be completely useless. All I can say is that blue glow is definitely not shown to be connected to when it is, or isn't, a portkey.

Speaking of Portkeys, by the way, I am finding more and more issues with Dumbledore's actions within your theory. Why did Dumbledore not simply turn Harry's clothes into a portkey, for example?

I think there are some good reasons for it to take the winner to the judges stand, but nowhere does any character imply that that is the case. And why does JKR obscure it so much? I just cannot accept that she would leave such a huge gap in her explanations by mistake.

The problem is that there is a large hole here regardless of what you believe. There is no indication of Dumbledore's involvement in the graveyard, nor is there any indication of Fawkes' ability to teleport magic through the presence of his feathers in the graveyard.

All we have are events which could be explained by these, and that is the same in either case. Surely you see that we both see more support for our own ideas than each other's. I think that some sort of diagram might be in order for clarifying. As I see it, the issue you have with my theory (not really just my theory, of course) is the ability to stack Portkey spells and have their effects play off sequentially, rather than all at once, and the issue I have with your theory is all of the new proposed magical abilities of Fawkes and Dumbledore, and Dumbledore's actions if those abilities actually did exist.

I must humbly apologize--I was tweaking you:

I think you meant Dumbledore in the sentence above.

Well then. I've been had. I completely missed that, and yes, you surmised correctly.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I believe we are talking about the stating of two different things. I agree with every objective claim you have made: the portkey glows blue when it begins to move, and stops glowing while it is transporting. I do not agree that this directly implies that the object stops being a portkey before being released, because the book is missing any statement that the portkey is only a portkey while it is glowing blue.

Indeed. In fact in OOTP when Dumbledore creates a portkey for Harry, it glows blue when he casts the spell; then it stops glowing. He hands the portkey to Harry who places his hand on it; Dumbledore then activates it at the count of 3, and Harry feels the effect of it but we are not told it glows again, either when Harry touches it or when he arrives at Dumbledore's office. Also, there is no mention of a glow in GOF with the Triwizard Cup anywhere along the way. Further, it appears impossible to release oneself from the portkey until it has delivered you to its destination, at which point you can finally let go.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Further, it appears impossible to release oneself from the portkey until it has delivered you to its destination, at which point you can finally let go.

Yes you are stuck to it until it has delivered you and then you can release it.

GoF,The Portkey ...his forefinger was stuck to the boot as though it was pulling him magically onwards and then -

GoF,The Third Task He could not unclench the hand holding the Triwizard Cup, it was pulling him onwards, in a howl of wind and swirling colour, Cedric at his side.

So it seems to me that this is a part of the charm and it signifies its ending when one can release the Portkey. In the graveyard we see that Harry lets go of the Portkey immediately on landing, when he falls forward. He was trying to let go of it during the journey; "He could not unclench the hand holding the Triwizard Cup..."

[Marauder_Sirius]

Wouldn't Dumbledore of had to of made the cup a portkey first as other wise the defenses around the school would have prevent Harry from being taken to the graveyard? Dumbledore would not have lowered the schools defenses permanently that year either with Harry being put in the tournament plus what happened at the world cup.

Why would Dumbledore fear Harry confronting Voldemort? His already aware of the twin cores as Olivander alerts him after selling Harry the wand. He would therefore be aware that Riddles wand can not defeat Harry's and I believe it says in the final book that they can wound but not fatally harm one another. Unless Riddle used another's wand and there is no evidence to suggest he would have done so then he can not defeat Harry in a duel. For Riddle this was all about revenge to destroy the boy that brought about his downfall and therefore he wanted to best him in a duel and show his true power. The flaw in this theory is what if Harry did not fight back but Harry had fought Voldemort twice now and confronted Sirius over the supposed betrayal of his parents, he is hot headed and prefers action so the Harry Dumbledore knew would not have surrendered meekly to the man of murdered his parents.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Marauder_Sirius

Why would Dumbledore fear Harry confronting Voldemort? His already aware of the twin cores as Olivander alerts him after selling Harry the wand. He would therefore be aware that Riddles wand can not defeat Harry's and I believe it says in the final book that they can wound but not fatally harm one another. Unless Riddle used another's wand and there is no evidence to suggest he would have done so then he can not defeat Harry in a duel.

I don't think that's correct (that Voldemort couldn't defeat Harry in a duel). The only way the wands don't work is if you force the wands to fight each other directly, at the same time -- which is what happened in GOF. However, as we also see in GOF, if Voldemort throws a spell before Harry (or vice versa) they work fine and Harry is vulnerable.

[Marauder_Sirius]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I don't think that's correct (that Voldemort couldn't defeat Harry in a duel). The only way the wands don't work is if you force the wands to fight each other directly, at the same time -- which is what happened in GOF. However, as we also see in GOF, if Voldemort throws a spell before Harry (or vice versa) they work fine and Harry is vulnerable.

I agree with you and I worded that poorly but I intended to say he can not defeated Harry if there wands locked together. Voldemort never hits Harry with AK in GOF so we never see whether the twin cores would save him there and I believe that it would have and the books support this view as Voldemort says to his followers at Malfoy Manner "I face an unfortunate complication--that my wand and Potter's share the same core. They are, in some ways, twins. We can wound, but not fatally harm one another."