Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

[CathyWeasley]

The more I read that line the more convinced I am that Snape is trying to distance himself from the idea of Harry (notice Snape calls him 'the boy') dying. It is another one of his emotional avoidance tricks if you ask me. I think Dumbledore is spot on when he asks if Snape has becomne fond of Harry. Snape's excessively defensive response IMO confirms it. Snape has watched people die. He is no stranger to death. Now he only watches those die whom he cannot save. So how can we for one minute think that Severus was anything but horrified at the prospect of Harry dying? Snape is now a man who is not indifferent to the deaths of strangers, so to suggest he is indifferent (or anything similar) to Harry dying is IMO totally contradictory to the canon. We see him try to save Remus Lupin during Harry's deaprture from Privet Drive. This makes it quite clear that the old grudges do not prevent him from trying to save a life - that he is not happy if harm or death befall his childhood enemies. So I cannot for one moment accept that Snape was happy about, or even indifferent to, the fact that Harry had to die.

I also think that Dumbledore was hiding his emotions as well during this conversation. He seems to me to be putting on a rather jaunty front for discussing this subject which I believe is something he felt very strongly about. It is also worth noting that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would not die. Funnily enough I think that Snape is shocked that Dumbledore's apparent lack of feeling, which is rather ironic for someone who spends so much time and energy hiding his own feelings.

[Bella_Crucio_U]

The more I read that line the more convinced I am that Snape is trying to distance himself from the idea of Harry (notice Snape calls him 'the boy') dying. It is another one of his emotional avoidance tricks if you ask me. I think Dumbledore is spot on when he asks if Snape has becomne fond of Harry. Snape's excessively defensive response IMO confirms it. Snape has watched people die. He is no stranger to death. Now he only watches those die whom he cannot save. So how can we for one minute think that Severus was anything but horrified at the prospect of Harry dying? Snape is now a man who is not indifferent to the deaths of strangers, so to suggest he is indifferent (or anything similar) to Harry dying is IMO totally contradictory to the canon. We see him try to save Remus Lupin during Harry's deaprture from Privet Drive. This makes it quite clear that the old grudges do not prevent him from trying to save a life - that he is not happy if harm or death befall his childhood enemies. So I cannot for one moment accept that Snape was happy about, or even indifferent to, the fact that Harry had to die.

I also think that Dumbledore was hiding his emotions as well during this conversation. He seems to me to be putting on a rather jaunty front for discussing this subject which I believe is something he felt very strongly about. It is also worth noting that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would not die. Funnily enough I think that Snape is shocked that Dumbledore's apparent lack of feeling, which is rather ironic for someone who spends so much time and energy hiding his own feelings.

I totally love how you said that. Nice job
I was rereading Prince's Tale last night and when I came to that conversation I as well thought that Snape was rather defensive toward Harry. He cared about him in the end too, not just Lily. And the "Always" line pretty much confirmed it for me.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by Bella_Crucio_U

He cared about him in the end too, not just Lily. And the "Always" line pretty much confirmed it for me.

Hmmm, actually we might have to disagree on this point. I don't ever see Snape caring for Harry. I don't think he ever cared about Harry himself. I wouldn't contradict the fact that he cared about Lily and so agreed to protect her son. But I wouldn't say that he cared about Harry in the end. The 'Always' mentioned in the text, only confirmed that Snape cares for Lily and no one else. That was pretty clear to me. I'll try to quote the whole passage so we'd be able to judge better.

The Prince Tale "But this is touching Severus," said Dumbledore seriously, "Have you grown to care for the boy after all?" "For him?" Shouted Snape, "Expecto Patronum!"

And after that the doe comes out of his wand. 'Always' there, I believe meant his care for Lily and not for Harry. I don't think Snape would shout at Dumbledore if the matter wasn't highly touching to him, imo. He must've felt strongly toward Lily and had no positive feelings toward Harry. If not the opposite. But that's JMO.

[Pearl_Took]

Cathy, that was a great post.

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

Hmmm, actually we might have to disagree on this point. I don't ever see Snape caring for Harry. I don't think he ever cared about Harry himself. I wouldn't contradict the fact that he cared about Lily and so agreed to protect her son. But I wouldn't say that he cared about Harry in the end. The 'Always' mentioned in the text, only confirmed that Snape cares for Lily and no one else. That was pretty clear to me. I'll try to quote the whole passage so we'd be able to judge better.

And after that the doe comes out of his wand. 'Always' there, I believe meant his care for Lily and not for Harry. I don't think Snape would shout at Dumbledore if the matter wasn't highly touching to him, imo. He must've felt strongly toward Lily and had no positive feelings toward Harry. If not the opposite. But that's JMO.

That does seem to be what Rowling intended to convey.

There is a school of thought, however, that takes the view that Snape is 'protesting too much'. That even if he did come to care for Harry, he could never bring himself to admit it. Hence the vehement 'him? you must be kidding!' reaction.

I find that an entirely plausible interpretation of Snape's reaction in this passage: it's in keeping with the character that Rowling wrote, and while there is no direct canon to prove that underneath his passionate protestation that it's all about Lily and not Harry in the slightest, it's a theory I like.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

The more I read that line the more convinced I am that Snape is trying to distance himself from the idea of Harry (notice Snape calls him 'the boy') dying. It is another one of his emotional avoidance tricks if you ask me. I think Dumbledore is spot on when he asks if Snape has becomne fond of Harry. Snape's excessively defensive response IMO confirms it. Snape has watched people die. He is no stranger to death. Now he only watches those die whom he cannot save. So how can we for one minute think that Severus was anything but horrified at the prospect of Harry dying? Snape is now a man who is not indifferent to the deaths of strangers, so to suggest he is indifferent (or anything similar) to Harry dying is IMO totally contradictory to the canon.

Well-Said, Cathy! Just because Snape invokes Lily at the end of that doesn't mean he is indifferent to Harry - far from it. What is Snape left with if Harry has to die? Nothing! That's his whole motivation for living.

Originally Posted by Cathy

I also think that Dumbledore was hiding his emotions as well during this conversation. He seems to me to be putting on a rather jaunty front for discussing this subject which I believe is something he felt very strongly about. It is also worth noting that Dumbledore also knew that Harry would not die. Funnily enough I think that Snape is shocked that Dumbledore's apparent lack of feeling, which is rather ironic for someone who spends so much time and energy hiding his own feelings.

It is ironic, but Snape is never as detached as Dumbledore. He's incapable of being cerebral about everything the way Dumbledore is, which I think speaks well for Snape as a human being.

Originally Posted by willfitz

US President Truman once said that the Marshall Plan and NATO were "two halves of the same walnut," but he was not suggesting that either were edible.

But a walnut is inanimate. He didn't compare the soldiers of WWII to dogs being put down for the greater good because that would have been insensitive to people who cared about their loved ones who were fighting.

For me, this dog-analogy is getting into Aunt Marge territory. She was shown to be totally insensitive to Harry. Plus she liked dogs more than people, which is the whole backstory about Ripper chasing Harry up the tree. Snape was even sympathetic about that: "To whom did the dog belong?"

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by willfitz

US President Truman once said that the Marshall Plan and NATO were "two halves of the same walnut," but he was not suggesting that either were edible.

That is a metaphor. What you said is a parallel. They work differently: a metaphor transports meaning, and a parallel gives an analogous situation.

[2green_eyes]

The way Snape was able to fool Voldie with his allegiance makes me wish there was a Hogwarts poker game to watch.

[MTBB]

Thank you for the welcome Pearl_Took, I appreciate it.

Snape has always tried to protect Harry, with no advantage to himself. From the very first book, Snape was saying a counter-curse to prevent Harry from falling off his broom. At the time they thought Snape was the one saying the Jinx but it was Quirell.

He could have stood back and let Quirell's plan unfold, but he was the only one to suspect Quirell and he went out of his way to stop the plan

You see him doing this again and again in the books, even when it gives him personal pain, the Occlumency lessons for example.

[Noldus]

I find it ironic that Snape once complained about Harry being sentimental when in fact he was even more. I can't recall whether it was from the books but at least he said so in the OOTP film.

I felt sorry for Snape. He was a complex character. He was very good to hide his feelings. His past influenced his cold behavour. Even though he wouldn't admit it, he loved Harry and he wanted to take care of Lily's only son for her sake.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

Here is another instance of Snape processing information. I do not find it inconsistent.

First of all, I find that reading "sitting quite still" as the same as "calm" is just as bad as reading "calm" as the same as "indifferent," but moving on from that, I did distinguish in this scene because the setting had just switched, and as far as we know, Dumbledore had not told him anything groundbreaking (otherwise we would have been present). From what we can see, Dumbledore had just been briefing him about his task at the Battle of Hogwarts, but had not told him the specifics, so I don't see why Snape would show any sort of emotion on his face here.

I read it as a moment of confirmation - the moment in which Severus realizes that Harry wasn't protected in order to live (and/or fight, even if chances of survival were slim), but in order to 'meet his death'...

This is sort of what I have been saying all along. I read Dumbledore's previous line ("and Voldemort must do it") as the confirmation that Harry must die, and this line as the confirmation that this was really Dumbledore's plan all along. So what does Snape react to? Harry dying, or it being part of Dumbledore's plan. From what I can tell, he takes more issue with the latter.

Exactly the part I found offensive: implying the same feelings are involved in one's relationship with pet animals as with fellow humans. But to each his or her own, I presume...

Originally Posted by Yoana

That is a metaphor. What you said is a parallel. They work differently: a metaphor transports meaning, and a parallel gives an analogous situation.

Originally Posted by silver_ink_pot

But a walnut is inanimate. He didn't compare the soldiers of WWII to dogs being put down for the greater good because that would have been insensitive to people who cared about their loved ones who were fighting.

For me, this dog-analogy is getting into Aunt Marge territory. She was shown to be totally insensitive to Harry. Plus she liked dogs more than people, which is the whole backstory about Ripper chasing Harry up the tree. Snape was even sympathetic about that: "To whom did the dog belong?"

I will drop this, it seems like people either get what I was trying to say with the analogy, or they don't.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by 2green_eyes

The way Snape was able to fool Voldie with his allegiance makes me wish there was a Hogwarts poker game to watch.

Originally Posted by Noldus

I find it ironic that Snape once complained about Harry being sentimental when in fact he was even more. I can't recall if it was from the books but he said so in the OOTP film.

Here it is - the "heart on the sleeve" speech. I think Snape knew what he was talking about because Voldemort figured him out pretty fast as a boy, too. I love the "wallow in sad memories" comment, too, when we consider all the crying going on in Prince's Tale. It's meant to be ironic in hindsight.

From OotP, "Occlumency"

"I told you to empty yourself of emotion!"

"Yeah? Well, I’m finding that hard at the moment," Harry snarled.

"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in said memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily – weak people, in other words – they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"

"I am not weak," said Harry in a low voice, fury now pumping through him so that he thought he might attack Snape in a moment.

"Then prove it! Master yourself!" spat Snape. "Control your anger, discipline your mind! We shall try again! Get ready, now! Legilimens!"

Quote found on Severus Snape in Canon

[MTBB]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Here it is - the "heart on the sleeve" speech. I think Snape knew what he was talking about because Voldemort figured him out pretty fast as a boy, too. I love the "wallow in sad memories" comment, too, when we consider all the crying going on in Prince's Tale. It's meant to be ironic in hindsight.

Yeah, I never realised when I read it before DH, that he had been talking about himself.

[kittling]

There have been some great posts lately

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

Hmmm, actually we might have to disagree on this point. I don't ever see Snape caring for Harry. I don't think he ever cared about Harry himself. I wouldn't contradict the fact that he cared about Lily and so agreed to protect her son. But I wouldn't say that he cared about Harry in the end.

I think that some of the conflict that arises from the ‘Did Severus care for Harry?’ question is that the word care can mean very different things. It gives no real indication of dept of feeling one can care that they have broken a nail and one can care about their soul mate – its just not the same thing but the word care is equally as apt imo.

Personally I think it is unarguable that Severus had some care for ensuring Harry’s survival – that is established by the end of PS/SS.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

There is a school of thought, however, that takes the view that Snape is 'protesting too much'. That even if he did come to care for Harry, he could never bring himself to admit it. Hence the vehement 'him? you must be kidding!' reaction.

I find that an entirely plausible interpretation of Snape's reaction in this passage: it's in keeping with the character that Rowling wrote, and while there is no direct canon to prove that underneath his passionate protestation that it's all about Lily and not Harry in the slightest, it's a theory I like.

Yes Pearl I agree! – Me thinks he protests too much

Personally I think he has developed quite a deep level of care about Harry but not one to which he could admit – perhaps it would be too much like saying James was ok because he had linked the two in his mind so much

Also I don’t think that saying he has come to care about Harry contradicts his still disliking him quite a lot! The old adage about love & hate being similar emotions comes into play and I think it is possible that maybe they both come into play when we look at Snape’s feeling for Harry – just a thought

Originally Posted by Noldus

I find it ironic that Snape once complained about Harry being sentimental when in fact he was even more.

Yes he was a very sentimental person he just keeps it all buttoned up

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

[Sly_Lady]

Originally Posted by kittling

Yes he was a very sentimental person he just keeps it all buttoned up

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

[silver ink pot]

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

Luckily there are other places here to do just that.

Originally Posted by kittling

I think that some of the conflict that arises from the ‘Did Severus care for Harry?’ question is that the word care can mean very different things. It gives no real indication of dept of feeling one can care that they have broken a nail and one can care about their soul mate – its just not the same thing but the word care is equally as apt imo.

And Harry believes that Snape is just like Petunia and didn't give damn about him, but as Dumbledore points out, Petunia cared enough to give him a place to live until he turned 17, even though she cared about her own son more. So there are degrees of caring. Petunia remembered Lily, too, but she didn't care about her to the same degree that Snape obviously did.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

There is a school of thought, however, that takes the view that Snape is 'protesting too much'. That even if he did come to care for Harry, he could never bring himself to admit it. Hence the vehement 'him? you must be kidding!' reaction.

I find that an entirely plausible interpretation of Snape's reaction in this passage: it's in keeping with the character that Rowling wrote, and while there is no direct canon to prove that underneath his passionate protestation that it's all about Lily and not Harry in the slightest, it's a theory I like.

I like this theory too!

Originally Posted by kittling

Also I don’t think that saying he has come to care about Harry contradicts his still disliking him quite a lot! The old adage about love & hate being similar emotions comes into play and I think it is possible that maybe they both come into play when we look at Snape’s feeling for Harry – just a thought

Exactly! You can dislike someone but still show a level of care for them. I personally think that Snape had very conflicting emotions were Harry was concerned. Harry is a reminder of both his hate for James and his love for Lily.

Yes he was a very sentimental person he just keeps it all buttoned up

Yeah, and in the films he is quite literally buttoned up. I think the person who designed that costume got it spot on.

*resists urge to glomp literary character*

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by SIP

It is ironic, but Snape is never as detached as Dumbledore. He's incapable of being cerebral about everything the way Dumbledore is, which I think speaks well for Snape as a human being.

Yes Dumbledore is quite a cool detatched person, whereas Snape is very emotional. I cannot help but be reminded of Marianne from Sense and Sensibility - or at least the idea that some people are more emotional than others. Severus is IMO someone who is very emotional but he sees it as a weakness to be overcome, (as indeed many men who are very emotional do) so I think he would have a desire to employ occlumency to a degree, even if his 'mission' did not demand it. And given his naturally emotional nature it shows how very accomplished an occlumens he is.

OT: You can tell I am reading Pride and Prejudice again by the language I am using!

As for Snape caring about Harry - I think he did but could not admit it to himself let alone anybody else. However I am currently contemplating that scene where Severus produces the patronus. Undoubtedly one of the purposes of that scene from Jo's point of view as the writer was to reveal Sev's patronus. So he had to reference Lily and say that it was all for her. But even given this his protestations did not have to be so vehement. It could just have easily been a start or a shrug as if the idea of caring for Harry was one he had never even considered and then him simply saying "No you are mistaken if you think I care for the boy. Expecto Patronum' As it is it implies to me that when it comes to Harrry Potter Snape's emotions are extremely conflicted. To paraphrase another wise wizard - 'He hates and Loves Harry as he hates and loves himself'

[Bscorp]

Dumbledore relied on Snape ability to deny his own emotions. So I have to wonder, why would he ask Snape to admit the possibility of caring for Harry? Was it just a rhetorical question or did Dumbledore want to goad Snape into keeping up his guard? I would like to argue that Dumbledore wanted Snape to come to some kind of epiphany- but this is the same man who told Snape the condition of his soul was his own business- so I can't read that into this scene.

To me, that scene reads to me as if Dumbledore was almost antagonizing Snape into defending his attitude against caring for Harry (too much.) Because he needed Snape to stay logical here. He needed Snape to carry this message to Harry that would ask Harry to go to his death willingly. It had to be Snape to do this, because Snape was the most loyal and the most capable of keeping such a dark secret.

Even if we read somewhere in the books that Snape had come to care for Harry- Dumbledore & the readers would know that canon Snape would never have broken down and admitted such a thing for these reasons ; 1) Snape has spent his life denying his emotions and 2) Snape works directly under a Dark Lord who gains power by seeing into their minds then manipulating and using the people and things victims care about.

Snape was good at his job because of number 1. His unfortunate childhood molded him into someone who would be naturally very guarded about his emotions and anything. But this is also what makes his friendship with Lily so special and so poignant is that she is the ONE person for whom Severus would let down his guard and allow some loss of personal control. He was most human around her.

In the end we see Snape literally lose all of his emotions, and control over his life's memories- all those things he kept bottled up come pouring out of him as he looks into "Lily's eyes."

But long before then, it is reasonable to assume IMO, that every time he looked at Harry, - if he allowed himself to see Lily in the boys eyes- he would feel some threat of losing control or exposing too much.

[SurfcatMalfoy]

I would like to argue that Dumbledore wanted Snape to come to some kind of epiphany-

Are you saying that he was looking for Severus to admit that he cared about Harry, not just the mission (whether it was DD's plan or just protecting Lilly's son). If so, I agree. I'll admit that the passage was a lead-in to Snape revealing his patronus and his still held feelings for Lilly (as some have said) but I would also argue that it was carefully written and full of meaning.

Oh, and (small point, but):

- but this is the same man who told Snape the condition of his soul was his own business- so I can't read that into this scene.

I thought DD meant that only Severus would know, for certain, whether he was murdering DD or simply helping a dying man leave at the time of his choosing,with dignity and without pain. It wasn't stated that killing tears your soul, murder does. I know, sorry... I said, "small point".

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Surfcat_Malfoy

I thought DD meant that only Severus would know, for certain, whether he was murdering DD or simply helping a dying man leave at the time of his choosing,with dignity and without pain. It wasn't stated that killing tears your soul, murder does. I know, sorry... I said, "small point".

I think that's a good distinction to bring up in this case. Also it speaks well for Snape because Dumbledore knew he would feel remorse for the killing anyway, so his soul would not stay torn. Snape was not a natural born killer, in my opinion.