What did/didn't JK Rowling plan out from the beginning

[LoonyForMoony]

Originally Posted by cardinalguy

Except he did comment on their rarity (and it's a bit of a stretch for 11-year-old Ron to correctly reference muggle fairy tales).

I think Wab was referring to Wizarding fairy tales here; namely the "Tale of the Three Brothers", in which the cloak itself features. It does seem a bit strange that Ron was as little awed by it as he was, considering it resembled a fabled object from a story he'd been hearing all his life. However, Jo probably wanted to keep the whole Hallows plot under wraps until the seventh books, and therefore kept from drawing too much attention to the cloak except as a former possession of James', and though rare and valuable enough, not legendary or awe-inspiring.

[cardinalguy]

Originally Posted by LoonyForMoony

I think Wab was referring to Wizarding fairy tales here; namely the "Tale of the Three Brothers", in which the cloak itself features. It does seem a bit strange that Ron was as little awed by it as he was, considering it resembled a fabled object from a story he'd been hearing all his life. However, Jo probably wanted to keep the whole Hallows plot under wraps until the seventh books, and therefore kept from drawing too much attention to the cloak except as a former possession of James', and though rare and valuable enough, not legendary or awe-inspiring.

Except Ron knew about other invisibility cloaks. He wouldn't have had any reason to believe that this particular cloak was any different. The rarity of them in general would have been enough to awe him. He had the same reaction to the Firebolt.

And my muggle fairy tale reference refers to the way "like a fairy tale" is commonly used to reference things that seem too good to be true.

[LoonyForMoony]

Originally Posted by cardinalguy

Except Ron knew about other invisibility cloaks. He wouldn't have had any reason to believe that this particular cloak was any different. The rarity of them in general would have been enough to awe him.

However, we learn from Xenophilius that Harry's cloak is, in the realm of invisibility cloaks, truly exceptional. Surely Ron, having grown up with the Tale of the Three Brothers just as we have with Snow White and Cinderella, would have made the connection, if only in a fanciful way. From what we learn is DH, it doesn't sound likely that there was another invisibility cloak in the world like the one Harry owned, and therefore it does seem a bit odd that Ron would take it so much for granted.

[snapes_witch]

Of course I have absolutely no canonical proof, merely a gut feeling, but I suspect the Deathly Hallows were something JKR thought up in the course of writing the books, perhaps even as late as the last book. She was pretty good about laying a foundation for something to come later; this wasn't the case with the DH thread. To me they were nothing but a distraction from the main plot of the last book -- the Horcruxes and their destruction.

[cardinalguy]

Originally Posted by LoonyForMoony

However, we learn from Xenophilius that Harry's cloak is, in the realm of invisibility cloaks, truly exceptional. Surely Ron, having grown up with the Tale of the Three Brothers just as we have with Snow White and Cinderella, would have made the connection, if only in a fanciful way. From what we learn is DH, it doesn't sound likely that there was another invisibility cloak in the world like the one Harry owned, and therefore it does seem a bit odd that Ron would take it so much for granted.

But Ron wouldn't have known at 11 that Harry's cloak was exceptional compared to others. His initial reaction indicated that he had never actually seen one before.

I couldn't tell you if the Hallows were pre-planned or not, but I don't believe that Ron's initial reaction to the cloak can be used either way.

[Lorena]

well, I think that there's no way that, even if she had written the 7 books in her head before actually writing them in paper, that she could have given us clues about everything, hallows, horcruxes, aurors, and so many other things, just in the first book. I do remember that the Lovegoods are mentioned in book one but Luna appears in book 5. So some things may seem as made up as the books were coming out but maybe she had them planned before.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Of course I have absolutely no canonical proof, merely a gut feeling, but I suspect the Deathly Hallows were something JKR thought up in the course of writing the books, perhaps even as late as the last book. She was pretty good about laying a foundation for something to come later; this wasn't the case with the DH thread. To me they were nothing but a distraction from the main plot of the last book -- the Horcruxes and their destruction.

It's pretty much standard for a writer to have their basic plot for a book, or even series of books, the main and supporting characters, the main locations, and such, either mentally laid out or on paper. Many do a whole "personality outline" of the main and secondary characters (date of birth, physical appearance, etc.).

I'm sure JKR had the better part of the Harry Potter series laid out, whether on paper or in her head, but, as for having every part of it completely thought out, I doubt that. IMO, some of it was planned out from the beginning and some just developed as she wrote.

I agree with SW's post above that the Hallows, IMO, detracted from the search for the horcurxes rather than adding to it. But, it may have been that JKR had them in mind from the beginning and just wanted to work them in. What the heck. It's her story. She could do what she wanted with it.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Lorena

well, I think that there's no way that, even if she had written the 7 books in her head before actually writing them in paper, that she could have given us clues about everything, hallows, horcruxes, aurors, and so many other things, just in the first book. I do remember that the Lovegoods are mentioned in book one but Luna appears in book 5. So some things may seem as made up as the books were coming out but maybe she had them planned before.

I don't think anyone's saying everything should have been foreshadowed in the very first book. That would have been some big book! I only meant there should have been some hint of the Deathly Hallows before the last book; I didn't see any, though others may have.

[Jack5555]

Someone needs to back me up on this, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Jo did not think of Luna until OotP. That makes me wonder how the events of DH would be different.

[ActingDude17]

Originally Posted by Lorena

well, I think that there's no way that, even if she had written the 7 books in her head before actually writing them in paper, that she could have given us clues about everything, hallows, horcruxes, aurors, and so many other things, just in the first book. I do remember that the Lovegoods are mentioned in book one but Luna appears in book 5. So some things may seem as made up as the books were coming out but maybe she had them planned before.

I don't know about the Lovegoods being mentioned in Sorcerer's Stone but I'm currently in the midst of a re-read of Goblet of Fire and noticed them being mentioned by Amos Diggory before he, Cedric, the Weasleys, Harry, and Hermione catch their Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup. I quote from page 73 of the American edition.

"Must be nearly time," said Mr. Weasley quickly, pulling out his watch again. "Do you know whether we're waiting for any more, Amos?"

"No, the Lovegoods have been there for a week already and the Fawcetts couldn't get tickets," said Mr. Diggory. "There aren't any more of us in this area, are there?"

This tells us that Jo at least had a wizarding family in her mind named the Lovegoods who lived in Ottery St. Catchpole while writing Goblet of Fire, which was published in 2000. Whether Luna's character specifically was fully formed is a currently unanswerable question. Maybe Jo knew Luna as early as 1998. Maybe she came up with her sometime between 2000 and 2003.

[snugglepot]

Originally Posted by Jack5555

Someone needs to back me up on this, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Jo did not think of Luna until OotP. That makes me wonder how the events of DH would be different.

I read that too, and I also read speculation that Luna came out of the character of Mafalda Weasley, who had been created for GoF, then discarded. I don't know how true that is as Mafalda was supposed to be a smartie pants in Slytherin.
I think it is because Jo stated that Luna was created to be the Anti-Hermione and present the opposite point of view to Hermione's books.
She also said somewhere that Mafalda got on Hermione's nerves, like Luna did at the start.
I saw an interview where Jo said she didn't know exactly how she came up with Luna. It's possible when she re-wrote GoF, taking out Mafalda, she wrote in the Lovegoods as a family going to the QWC, and turned Mafalda into Luna for OotP.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I agree with SW's post above that the Hallows, IMO, detracted from the search for the horcurxes rather than adding to it. But, it may have been that JKR had them in mind from the beginning and just wanted to work them in. What the heck.

I felt that the Hallows were something she had planned earlier. We have a few clues about them in the previous books. Maybe just the wand and the cloak, none about the stone.
The wand. She mentioned Dumbledore's defeat of Grindlewald as early as PS. And she had Draco disarm Dumbledore on the tower. So I think she probably had some plans to an unbeatable wand that passes from a wizard to another by disarming, stunning, etc.

And, Didn't Moody once say that Harry's cloak was rare? .

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

I felt that the Hallows were something she had planned earlier. We have a few clues about them in the previous books. Maybe just the wand and the cloak, none about the stone.
The wand. She mentioned Dumbledore's defeat of Grindlewald as early as PS. And she had Draco disarm Dumbledore on the tower. So I think she probably had some plans to an unbeatable wand that passes from a wizard to another by disarming, stunning, etc.

And, Didn't Moody once say that Harry's cloak was rare? .

I definitely think Draco disarming DD is foreshadowing, but the mention in PS of DD defeating Grindelwald isn't nearly as much so (IMO).

[LoonyForMoony]

I agree with SW's post above that the Hallows, IMO, detracted from the search for the horcurxes rather than adding to it. But, it may have been that JKR had them in mind from the beginning and just wanted to work them in. What the heck.

I feel like that was just the point, though. Harry's obsession with the Hallows formed one of the key points of the book, in a mostly negative way; he shouldn't have been obsessed with them, and the fact that he was made him grouchy, irritable, and indirectly responsible for Dobby's death. At first, he wanted to possess them all in order to become the Master of Death in the same selfish and evil way that Dumbledore had at the same age; however, the fact that he comes into possession of all three, allows them to help him overthrow evil, and then lets them go, shows that he was stronger than Dumbledore. I'm certain that Dumbledore saw Harry's life almost as a re-write of his own, so to speak. And so the whole Hallows story become a cautionary tale, almost a red herring in the rest of the plot. I didn't feel that their inclusion was random or pointless at all, although it may seem that way without looking at the closure they give to Harry and Dumbledore'e story arc.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by Wab

The thing that screams to me that the whole series wasn't thought through was the whole Horcrux/Hallows thing.

Had the series actually been thought through from the start there would have been intimations of the existence of the most vital elements in the ultimate story.

It was poor structuring to introduce a complex device like Horcruxes and build up their importance in the second lats book and then introduce another device in the Hallows which were even more important in the last.

That's also my opinion

[gertiekeddle]

I'm not even sure if it was generally poor structuring, but we most likely know better from Jo when it comes to hide small hints to some person, artifact or action which will be important later in the books. So I agree the Hallows could likely be a later idea. Even if we know how overly functional the cloak eg is from the start, the story rather fits around the undefeatable cloak than the other way round.
The horcruxes might be too, but maybe the author just hadn't work them out fully while writing earlier books and so didn't want to set the casual hints.

[Grymmditch]

Originally Posted by Wab

The thing that screams to me that the whole series wasn't thought through was the whole Horcrux/Hallows thing.

Had the series actually been thought through from the start there would have been intimations of the existence of the most vital elements in the ultimate story.

It was poor structuring to introduce a complex device like Horcruxes and build up their importance in the second lats book and then introduce another device in the Hallows which were even more important in the last.

That Harry was carrying around an invisibility cloak without Ron commenting that it was like something out of a fairy tale indicates that the importance came to JKR well into the writing.

I gotta agree with WAB here. The Hallows were introduced far too late for something that had such a substantial significance in the series. It almost seems as if Jo realized a bit too late that she was missing a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that was necessary to complete the picture. If this is not the case, then that's maybe even worse. Horcruxes themselves would have been enough, having been introduced in the penultimate book.

My personal theory is that, while JKR is extraordinary in terms of the amount of solid folklore research she put into her story, her gift for character creation/continuity, and the amount of subplot complexity she can weave into a story, she was nonetheless "bound" by the original story arc she created in the very beginning - when she was a freshman author.
I say "bound" because I believe that, as she progressed and became a better author, her writing matured and her ability to create greater subplot complexities grew, but in the end, she'd sort of painted herself into a corner from the beginning, and Deathly Hallows was the result. For me, it was a disillusioning wrap-up to an otherwise fantastic, promising series.

That said, I think she planned more from the beginning than most authors.
She said in interviews that she rewrote the first book (or parts of it) several times so as to not give away too much up front, which attests to the fact she had most of it worked out.
It is surprising (to me) for a beginning author to undertake such a large project (she had always planned for a 7 book series) right out of the gate, rather than work on a short stories or single volume novels first. Lucky for us -and her- that she didn't.

[merrymarge]

To me, the whole story of Harry Potter whether totally planned or partially planned is truly amazing. And, I remember reading, that she mainly wrote the books for her pleasure.If you think about it, she went for broke, as the saying goes. She gambled big time and "won the jackpot." Will we ever know how much she had pre-planned and how much she rewrote while writing the series? Not unless someone asks her. I don't suppose we will really know for sure.

[halfbreedlover]

Until DH cleared it up, IMO this was the most mysterious passage of the the whole series:

And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he had had when he was very small and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that. CoS American Hardcover Pgs 233-234

If that isn't foreshadowing that Harry is a horcrux, then I don't know what else that passage could possibly mean. Why would Rowling write something so cryptic for no reason? To me, that's proof that Rowling had the horcrux idea in her mind at least as early as 1998.

[Wab]

Originally Posted by halfbreedlover

If that isn't foreshadowing that Harry is a horcrux, then I don't know what else that passage could possibly mean.

How about the simple fact that when Voldemort tried to kill Harry he passed some of his attributes (like the ability to speak parseltongue) to Harry creating a lifelong bond between the two?