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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14



View Poll Results: Did Snape pass Voldemort the information that led to Vance's capture and murder?
Yes, he told the Black sisters the truth and acted for the greater good. 14 13.33%
Yes, I believe he did. Dumbledore's orders. 19 18.10%
Yes. He cared about Lily and no-one else. 13 12.38%
Maybe. This does not become clear in the text. 47 44.76%
It is of course possible but he had changed so much by then that I don't believe it. 11 10.48%
No, he would not have caused another woman's death, no way. 8 7.62%
No, he was lying to the Black sisters to gain their trust. That's what spies do. 28 26.67%
Something else Moriath forgot to mention. 12 11.43%
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  #441  
Old March 13th, 2010, 6:59 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I'm sorry CC, there is no evidence that Snape was that shy, or even that nerdy (does the WW have nerds). Also he was best freinds with Lily. I would imagine that would have at least brought him into contact with other children at the school. I have to come to the conclusion that if Snape was not popular, (if indeed that was the case) it was because of his own actions.
No, actually, you do not have to come to that conclusion. It's not like we see any instances in the text of him provoking the bullies. In fact, we don't know of a single instance in which he ever so much as served a detention! We do, however, know that he was bullied for the simple fact of existing. And we know also that he was taunted incessantly over his nose. ("Snivellus" is a nose taunt, as are the taunts from the Marauders Map).

I just have to add... I find it hilarious when Sirius indicates that Severus had wished to be some brawny Quidditch jock. That was approximately the last thing Severus ever wanted to be!

Severus is the quintessential INTJ personality type (the theorist, inventor, "Systems Builder"), who functions equally well in an ISTJ (Potions brewer, rule enforcer) context. His most dominant traits are I (over E) and T (over F), which means that he is strikingly introverted, and despite having strong feelings, he has a strong preference for logic over feeling.

What all that means is that he is indeed a nerd - i.e. bookish, theoretical, and withdrawn. And as a strong introvert, he would wish to keep to a very small circle of friends. Becoming the social butterfly that you apparently think would have made him a worthwhile human being is not something that would have been comfortable for an introvert - Lily making introductions or not.

As for the bullying... kids get bullied over things no more serious than having red hair (which is the reason I had to fight my way home from school everyday against 4-5 bullies). As a kid from the wrong side of the tracks (and there is no question at all that Severus was from a poverty-stricken neighborhood), who grew up wearing adult hand-me-downs, and had a hooked nose, Severus would have been an extremely easy mark for the "cool kids" to target.

Quote:
Harry was the target of a very sustained effort to discredit him by the Ministery.
Yes, I know about the circumstances of the Ministry's attack in OotP. The fact remains that JKR consistently draws parallels between Harry and Severus. And it didn't require the Ministry to get the kids to all travel in a pack against Harry. The Ministry wasn't after Harry in CoS, when he became a pariah. And the Ministry wasn't after Harry in GoF (though Rita Skeeter was), when he became a pariah. But he did become a pariah. And he was, as we know, innocent of any serious wrongdoing. (though, of course, he was a determined rule breaker).

Incidentally, you complained earlier that nobody was addressing your laziness claim. I did address it.


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  #442  
Old March 13th, 2010, 8:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I really find it interesting that I have been given about a dozen reasons why Snape was not lazy as a student, but not one reason as to why he was not lazy in becoming a DE as IMO that was the most important part of my post. Being lazy as a student did not have a negative effect on anyone but him. Taking the short route to power by becoming a DE, had a negative effect on everyone. When he did this he added his abilities to LV's arsenel and this would have had a knock on effect on all who were murdered and tortured at this time. It cannot be denied that he was a DE during the time that people were being killed by them, he worked for and supported them. Therefore he tried to take a shortcut to power, IMO.
Quote:
Merriam Webster defines lazy as this ::

suggests a disinclination to work or to take trouble/ disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous b : encouraging inactivity or indolence
I don't think a DE meant taking power easily or taking glory easily because the said DE were lazy. It meant joining an organisation that was against muggleborns; so when Snape joined it, I don't know if he thought he could get the power that easily; I don't think he did; he had no money, status or family to really call the shots. He must have known he would have to work hard to prove his worth.

And once he joined and became a DE, I think he would have known that power in that group was meant to be only with one person, Voldemort, irrespective of status, family or money or even political power. Assuming Snape realised he was not expecting this, as he may very well have, what was the alternative? There was nothing unless one did not care whether one lived or died.

It was with that type of mind, knowing that he would die, Regulus turned; Snape turned; they were able to walk away from Voldemort when they stopped fearing for their lives; they walked away not caring they would be killed.

Until then they had as a DE no other option except to do what Voldemort said. We see that with Draco and the other DEs quite clearly.

I feel at many times many things that could have turned Snape to become a DE. At times, many times I feel the answer does not lie in belief in Voldemort's agenda or because he thought muggleborns should be killed but close to Snape himself.

I think Snape joined that organisation because he was in some way against muggles and muggleborns and I think this was not because he hated muggleborns or muggles or thought them unworthy of living; I think it was because of his own experience with them.

Just like Harry. Only Harry had tons of people to help him, love him and save him; Snape had no one to love him or lead him. He fell on his own and also stood up on his own because he had to IMO.

He was a half blood and his experience with muggles was not good at all. From what I understand of his home life, I think it's quite possible that Snape may have felt that muggleborns (and their parents who would be muggles and half bloods like him who have one muggle parent) should be kept out of the WW so that people like him would not come into being, with one parent not understanding of magic and plain abusive.

I think he was too young to know that abuse happens everywhere; in his mind I think Snape equalled his home life to the muggle who made his and his mother's life miserable and I truly think this was the major factor that pushed him into an organisation which wanted to keep muggleborns away from the WW.

THis also explains why he never thought Lily was inferior and why he never took part in any prank that was played by Avery and Mulciber. He may have wanted muggleborns away from the WW; I don't think he was plotting for their death or their torture. For Snape it was personal and I think he probably thought Lily would understand because she knew about his home life; he was rather shattered when that did not happen IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I think he knew very well what the DE's were. He was not like IMO Regelus, whom I have always thought of as rather naive.
I disagree. I don't think Regulus was naive; he, Snape and Draco all had something in common. They got into an organisation without really knowing what would be called of them. Once they went in though, there was no way they could leave; Draco couldn't even when he knew that was no DE; he could not kill Dumbledore, even when his parents could die because of this.

Snape opted out when Lily was targeted; he came to Dumbledore to die, not to spy; while Regulus stole the locket and handed it over to Kreacher of all people and told him to somehow destroy it.

I think it showed how far removed from the basics the Order and the Light side was that no one could approach it; not as a brother of an Order member or as DE who wanted to share something like this. Regulus could not trust Dumbledore or his Order or his brother to do the right thing and Snape came to Dumbledore only because he knew Dumbledore would act on this information to save his people; the Potters and not Snape. He expected to die and was IMO shocked when that did not happen.


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  #443  
Old March 13th, 2010, 11:30 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
As a kid from the wrong side of the tracks (and there is no question at all that Severus was from a poverty-stricken neighborhood), who grew up wearing adult hand-me-downs, and had a hooked nose, Severus would have been an extremely easy mark for the "cool kids" to target.
I would go a little further personally, yes he is a kid from the wrong side of the tracks as you say Ė I think Petunia make this very clear on their first meeting. Added to which he is on the wrong side of the tracks in Hogwarts / the Wizarding world too because he is not only poor but lives in the muggle world. I have wondered how much this counted against him when he did finally get to school Ė and I canít help thinking that at best it didnít help him at all and I suspect it was far more contributory than that.


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  #444  
Old March 13th, 2010, 1:28 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Very interesting posts, I mean that sincerely. But where is Snape's personal responsibility for his actions. It would seem that everybody is to blame for what Snape did as a young man and not him. He made a huge mistake and yes, it is a stumbling block for me. Whatever James, Sirius and Remus did as children, they did not grow up and join a bunch of murderers. nothing serves as an excuse for that to me. I don't think Snape being sorry for Lily's death is quite enough. I think his redemption took an awful lot more than that. His efforts up till his death in fact.


  #445  
Old March 13th, 2010, 1:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

I think young Sev had rather good personal reasons for disliking muggles - mostly his father and whomever bullied him pre-Hogwarts, I do not think he automatically disliked muggleborns.

I think he might have held similar beliefs about muggleborns that we see the first time we see Draco. Draco at Madame Malkins doesn't say anything about muggleborns being inferior. He speaks about them not knowing things that those raised as wizards know - that they would be 'behind'. We do not see Draco calling Hermione a mudblood until after she implies he couldn't make the Quidditch team without his father buying them brooms (which would have been untrue, since Draco really IS a good flyer)

My belief is based on the way he tried to inform Lily of every little wizarding thing he could think of before she had to leave for Hogwarts. When she asks if being a muggleborn will make a difference, he must think for a minute, but then replies 'no'. Since we also know he believed Lily could sort into Slytherin, I think Sev truly believed that with Lily's control over her magic and the info he had given her that she would not have the same troubles other muggleborns might have. He had taken care of her lack of knowledge where he could and her own control over her magic would keep others from finding her magic 'inferior'.

So, Sev had little reason to like muggles - the ones he knows (with the possible exception of Mr & Mrs Evans - whose opinions of Sev we have no idea about) mostly bully him. And the beginning of school he believes that a talented muggleborn who has been fully informed on wizarding ways and habits shouldn't have any trouble fitting in and could even sort into Slytherin.

By 5th year, Sev apparently has enough of a bad opinion of muggleborns that he will call them mudbloods (except for Lily - until he gets exceptionally mad). We however do not know the circumstances under which he uses the word - except for the one time against Lily.

Would he really be calling muggleborns Mudbloods in front of Lily without her mentioning how much she dislikes it? Which leaves the question of just when he would use the word. Is it only in the Slytherin common room - doubtful - otherwise why would Lily even know? Or does it usually come out when he is being bullied? We have no indications that Sev ever bullied anyone himself. Not only were there no detention cards for Harry to copy, but neither Lily, nor the Marauders ever accuse him of such.

I think for Sev that Mudblood was an angry response to others supposedly further down the food chain than himself. It isn't nice, but using the word probably helped him keep acquaintances in Slytherin happy. And having other Slytherins around was protection against the Marauders (by Snape's account they would not attack if the odds were even - only when he was alone) - so keeping those 'friends' somewhat 'happy' would be an important part of his defense.

And I see no reason why a pureblood Regulus with newsclippings about DEs all over his room and parents who supported Voldy can be so naive as to believe muggleborns wouldn't be killed, but instead 'put in their place' and Sev - who apparently didn't have the family connections in the DEs could not be similarly naive.

We even have Hagrid later telling Harry that as late as Halloween'81 - it's believable (at least to Hagrid) that Voldy would try to recruit muggleborn Lily because she was one of the 'best'. And it was even STILL believable to Hagrid in Summer'91. So I find it quite plausible that Sev could believe (at the time of his joining) that 'non-inferior' muggleborns (like Lily) would still be accepted in Voldy's society. Note (for those who use interview quotes as a part of canon) that JKR has even said that a muggleborn COULD be a DE - in special circumstances.

I could almost bet that the hook used to get Snape was that talent and intelligence were what mattered and would be what was rewarded when Voldy came to power. Otherwise - if Voldy was pressing the Pureblood agenda at the time - why would Snape believe being a DE would bring him any particular power at all - not being 'pure' himself?

But a world where the smart have power? Instead of those with money and popularity? Snape would go for that - it would seem to him as his only hope. Not that anyone could hope to be 'lazy' in that kind of world. One would need to work hard to prove oneself and keep proving oneself - but at least there would be hope of rewards.

Of course, it would never happen, but I can truly see Snape buying it - and it's the only thing that makes sense of JKRs interview quote about Sev believing being a DE would impress Lily. It makes no sense at all if he thought the DEs were about killing muggleborns (or even enslaving them all) - but it makes good sense if he believes hardwork and intelligence will pay off in that world. If that was his belief then he would even see Lily as benefitting from it.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; March 13th, 2010 at 3:06 pm.
  #446  
Old March 13th, 2010, 2:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

What a brilliant post hwyla!

Quote:
I could almost bet that the hook used to get Snape was that talent and intelligence were what mattered and would be what was rewarded when Voldy came to power. Otherwise - if Voldy was pressing the Pureblood agenda at the time - why would Snape believe being a DE would bring him any particular power at all - not being 'pure' himself?

But a world where the smart have power? Instead of those with money and popularity? Snape would go for that - it would seem to him as his only hope. Not that anyone could hope to be 'lazy' in that kind of world. One would need to work hard to prove oneself and keep proving oneself - but at least there would be hope of rewards.


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  #447  
Old March 13th, 2010, 3:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

[
Quote:
QUOTE=hwyla;5508213]I think young Sev had rather good personal reasons for disliking muggles - mostly his father and whomever bullied him pre-Hogwarts, I do not think he automatically disliked muggleborns.
Of course, grown up mature people always blame most of the population for the actions of a very few.

Quote:
I think he might have held similar beliefs about muggleborns that we see the first time we see Draco. Draco at Madame Malkins doesn't say anything about muggleborns being inferior. He speaks about them not knowing things that those raised as wizards know - that they would be 'behind'. We do not see Draco calling Hermione a mudblood until after she implies he couldn't make the Quidditch team without his father buying them brooms (which would have been untrue, since Draco really IS a good flyer)
Having your father buy you onto team is always the best way. Why wasn't Draco on the team by merit before his father bought everyone a new broom and why did Snape let Lucius do it?

Quote:
My belief is based on the way he tried to inform Lily of every little wizarding thing he could think of before she had to leave for Hogwarts. When she asks if being a muggleborn will make a difference, he must think for a minute, but then replies 'no'. Since we also know he believed Lily could sort into Slytherin, I think Sev truly believed that with Lily's control over her magic and the info he had given her that she would not have the same troubles other muggleborns might have. He had taken care of her lack of knowledge where he could and her own control over her magic would keep others from finding her magic 'inferior'.
Young Severus wanted to impress the young Lily. He could not impress her with his clothes so he used his knowledge of the WW. Understandable but hardly altruistic.

Quote:
So, Sev had little reason to like muggles - the ones he knows (with the possible exception of Mr & Mrs Evans - whose opinions of Sev we have no idea about) mostly bully him. And the beginning of school he believes that a talented muggleborn who has been fully informed on wizarding ways and habits shouldn't have any trouble fitting in and could even sort into Slytherin
.

We have absolutely no idea how Sev was treated by the other Muggles in his neighborhood.

Quote:
By 5th year, Sev apparently has enough of a bad opinion of muggleborns that he will call them mudbloods (except for Lily - until he gets exceptionally mad). We however do not know the circumstances under which he uses the word - except for the one time against Lily.
IMO there is absolutely no good time to use a racial epithet.


Quote:
Would he really be calling muggleborns Mudbloods in front of Lily without her mentioning how much she dislikes it? Which leaves the question of just when he would use the word. Is it only in the Slytherin common room - doubtful - otherwise why would Lily even know? Or does it usually come out when he is being bullied? We have no indications that Sev ever bullied anyone himself. Not only were there no detention cards for Harry to copy, but neither Lily, nor the Marauders ever accuse him of such.
No, the only people we see Snape bullying is the children in his class.

Quote:
I think for Sev that Mudblood was an angry response to others supposedly further down the food chain than himself. It isn't nice, but using the word probably helped him keep acquaintances in Slytherin happy. And having other Slytherins around was protection against the Marauders (by Snape's account they would not attack if the odds were even - only when he was alone) - so keeping those 'friends' somewhat 'happy' would be an important part of his defense.
This is a wonderful way to describe Snape's behavior. I could not have put it better myself, he thought it OK to use the word to make himself feel better.

Quote:
And I see no reason why a pureblood Regulus with newsclippings about DEs all over his room and parents who supported Voldy can be so naive as to believe muggleborns wouldn't be killed, but instead 'put in their place' and Sev - who apparently didn't have the family connections in the DEs could not be similarly naive.
Regulus seemed naive to me because he thought that he would not be affected by what DE's did. I can't ascribe this motivation to Snape.

Quote:
We even have Hagrid later telling Harry that as late as Halloween'81 - it's believable (at least to Hagrid) that Voldy would try to recruit muggleborn Lily because she was one of the 'best'. So I find it quite plausible that Sev could believe (at the time of his joining) that 'non-inferior' muggleborns (like Lily) would still be accepted in Voldy's society.
Yes, calling her a Mudblood was the best way of showing that she was a 'non-inferior' Muggleborn.

Quote:
I could almost bet that the hook used to get Snape was that talent and intelligence were what mattered and would be what was rewarded when Voldy came to power. Otherwise - if Voldy was pressing the Pureblood agenda at the time - why would Snape believe being a DE would bring him any particular power at all - not being 'pure' himself?

But a world where the smart have power? Instead of those with money and popularity? Snape would go for that - it would seem to him as his only hope. Not that anyone could hope to be 'lazy' in that kind of world. One would need to work hard to prove oneself and keep proving oneself - but at least there would be hope of rewards.
That would be why Snape's best friend in that world was the very wealthy Lucius Malfoy?

Quote:
Of course, it would never happen, but I can truly see Snape buying it - and it's the only thing that makes sense of JKRs interview quote about Sev believing being a DE would impress Lily. It makes no sense at all if he thought the DEs were about killing muggleborns (or even enslaving them all) - but it makes good sense if he believes hardwork and intelligence will pay off in that world. If that was his belief then he would even see Lily as benefitting from it
And Lily telling him that she wanted nothing to do with that world had no effect on this belief? It is my belief that Snape thought he would become a DE and then he would have the power to make Lily come to him.


  #448  
Old March 13th, 2010, 4:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Okay, everyone, enough with the sarcasm. Tone it down a bit.


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  #449  
Old March 13th, 2010, 4:38 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

Quote:
But a world where the smart have power? Instead of those with money and popularity? Snape would go for that - it would seem to him as his only hope. Not that anyone could hope to be 'lazy' in that kind of world. One would need to work hard to prove oneself and keep proving oneself - but at least there would be hope of rewards.

Of course, it would never happen, but I can truly see Snape buying it - and it's the only thing that makes sense of JKRs interview quote about Sev believing being a DE would impress Lily. It makes no sense at all if he thought the DEs were about killing muggleborns (or even enslaving them all) - but it makes good sense if he believes hardwork and intelligence will pay off in that world. If that was his belief then he would even see Lily as benefitting from it.
Hwyla: I think this is a great explanation of how someone as intelligent as Snape could be persuaded to join Voldemort. To me, he just isn't the killing and torturing type, and even Voldemort accepted that about Snape and let him become a teacher and a spy instead.


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  #450  
Old March 13th, 2010, 5:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Hwyla: I think this is a great explanation of how someone as intelligent as Snape could be persuaded to join Voldemort. To me, he just isn't the killing and torturing type, and even Voldemort accepted that about Snape and let him become a teacher and a spy instead.
LV understanding and accepting? This is not the view of LV that I have, but it's an interesting one.


  #451  
Old March 13th, 2010, 5:29 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Hwyla: I think this is a great explanation of how someone as intelligent as Snape could be persuaded to join Voldemort. To me, he just isn't the killing and torturing type, and even Voldemort accepted that about Snape and let him become a teacher and a spy instead.
I can see Voldemort was capable of creating a believeable appearance of empathy, we see this with his interactions with Ginny Weasley. I could see him using Snape's insecurities and desire to no longer be in a position of vulnerablity, need to find acceptance and a way to find an outlet for his skills/knowledge, to play it to his own advantage. I think he could understand certain motivations, yes. Imo.


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  #452  
Old March 13th, 2010, 5:36 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
I can see Voldemort was capable of creating a believeable appearance of empathy, we see this with his interactions with Ginny Weasley. I could see him using Snape's insecurities and desire to no longer be in a position of vulnerablity, acceptance and a way to find an outlet his skills/knowledge, to play it to his own advantage. I think he could understand certain motivations, yes. Imo.
Ginny had no idea that it was the schoolboy LV she was dealing with. And he could not keep up the pretense very long. Even 11 year old Ginny could sense that what was happening to her was evil. Snape was a smart man, he couldn't see through LV's rhetoric to the underlying evil? That I can't believe, I also have a hard time seeing Snape as that insecure. Snape believed in himself from when he was a young child.


  #453  
Old March 13th, 2010, 5:52 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Ginny had no idea that it was the schoolboy LV she was dealing with.
Nevertheless, it shows the reader Tom Riddle was capable of charismatic behaviour and faking empathy and using people's insecurities/motivations/anxieties/troubles to his own advantage. And, I think, Snape had his inner demons to contend with. Imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
That I can't believe, I also have a hard time seeing Snape as that insecure. Snape believed in himself from when he was a young child.
He is riddled with insecurites (this is confirmed JKR), I think, she successfully shows how this ingrains and roots itself in his personality and manner as he grew up. He had knowledge and skill, but that doesn't mean young Snape wasn't insecure in other aspects of his life like socially, looks and poverty. Imo.

Snape felt, simply as he was, he wasn't 'good enough' for Lily and needed to seek a better social postion or power in order to impress her. If he was so sure and confidant in himself, imo, he would not have felt it required to go to such extremes. Imo.


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Last edited by Annielogic; March 13th, 2010 at 6:15 pm. Reason: typo
  #454  
Old March 13th, 2010, 6:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
We however do not know the circumstances under which he uses the word - except for the one time against Lily.
Under which circumstances would it be justified?


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  #455  
Old March 13th, 2010, 6:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
It makes no sense at all if he thought the DEs were about killing muggleborns (or even enslaving them all) - but it makes good sense if he believes hardwork and intelligence will pay off in that world. If that was his belief then he would even see Lily as benefitting from it.
Lily said something that is quite interesting.

DHSeverus Snape: "I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just —"
Lily: "Slipped out? It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends ... You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine."


This might hint that Snape had introduced Lily to the Death Eaters but she had chosen not to. So I like your logic that Snape might have been fascinated not only by power but by the desire of sharing something in common with Lily.


  #456  
Old March 13th, 2010, 6:52 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

[
Quote:
QUOTE=Annielogic;5508287]Nevertheless, it shows the reader Tom Riddle was capable of charismatic behaviour and faking empathy and using people's insecurities/motivations/anxieties/troubles to his own advantage. And, I think, Snape had his inner demons to contend with. Imo.
The Tom Riddle who existed in the diary could not even fool an 11 year child for long. Snape had his demons, that I will agree on. At that time in his life, IMO his demons were his love for the Dark Arts.

Quote:
He is riddled with insecurites (this is confirmed JKR), I think, she successfully shows how this ingrains and roots itself in his personality and manner as he grew up. He had knowledge and skill, but that doesn't mean young Snape wasn't insecure in other aspects of his life like socially, looks and poverty. Imo.
As a lot of people have stated on this forum, JKR is not the last word on Snape, her opinions are just that-her opinions. I just don't see that many insecurities in Snape. I feel he always had that core of steel. Not a bad thing in itself, but at that time I do think it kept him on the track he firmly believed in.

Quote:
Snape felt, simply as he was, he wasn't 'good enough' for Lily and needed to seek a better social postion or power in order to impress her. If he was so sure and confidant in himself, imo, he would not have felt it required to go to such extremes. Imo.[
IMO, Snape knew that he had offended and driven Lily away from him in such a manner that he could never get her back. Though this did not stop him from attacking James at every oppotunity. I think that on some level he may have thought that if he couldn't have Lily, then he would have power as a DE. But always, underneath was the thought that circumstances would come around when he would have a chance to get her. I think he thought those circumstances did come around when he had the chance to ask LV to spare her. Then the thought came that maybe Lily would not be glad of the chance to save her life at the expence of her husband's and child and he went to DD as a back up plan. This IMO, is not Snape's finest hour. I think he sank about as low a person can go, the same depth he sank too in POA. I think his finest hour lay far in his future.



Last edited by eliza101; March 13th, 2010 at 7:08 pm.
  #457  
Old March 13th, 2010, 7:07 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I think that on some level he may have thought that if he couldn't have Lily, then he would have power as a DE.
From the quote that I have provided in my previous post it is quite clear that his desires for becoming a Death Eater were there even before he had lost Lily as a friend. So it would be wrong to to say that he chose the dark side to gain power only after he realized he couldn't have Lily.


  #458  
Old March 13th, 2010, 7:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post

As a lot of people have stated on this forum, JKR is not the last word on Snape, her opinions are just that-her opinions.
I stated my opinion based on the text, which I felt illustrated Snape's insecurities. I merely meant I can see from the JKR interview this is what she intended to convey. And do so, successfully, in my opinion, because this is what I felt upon reading. I did not indicate JKR's interviews are the final word, on the contrary I feel the work itself does, hence why I drew my conclusions from the text (before stumbling across this particular interview).

I believe he didn't have a core of steel. He was affected emotionally, also we see him display emotion, and there were insecurities that preyed and led to the damaged, tragic, bitter figure he later becomes. You do, so we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

I think after Lily walked away, all Snape probably felt he had left was the DE path/ambition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Though this did not stop him from attacking James at every oppotunity.
Out of respect for the Mods sanity, I'm just going to say we don't have an objective source for this. The details have been raised enough times in these threads anyway, So I'll leave it there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
the same depth he sank too in POA.
What instance are you referring to in PoA?


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Last edited by Annielogic; March 17th, 2010 at 1:46 pm. Reason: typo
  #459  
Old March 13th, 2010, 7:49 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

[
Quote:
QUOTE=Annielogic;5508334]I stated my opinion based on the text, which I felt illustrated Snape's insecurities. I merely meant I can see from the JKR interview this is what she intended to convey. And do so, successfully, in my opinion, because this is what I felt upon reading. I did not indicate JKR's interviews are the final word, on the contrary I feel the work itself does, hence why I drew my conclusions from the text (before stumbling across this particular interview).
Well in the immortal words of Wicked Wicked Boy I think we must agree to disagree. Snape may have had insecurities but I read no real indications of them. He seemed to me to be someone who knew what he wanted (to be a powerful DE) and he went after it.

Quote:
I believe he didn't have a core of steel or stone, whichever, and there were insecurities that preyed and led to the damaged, tragic, bitter figure he later becomes. You do, so we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
I think it best, with all due respect to your opinion. We must leave it at that.

Quote:
I think after Lily walked away, all Snape felt he had left was the DE path. mysterious has already addressed the other issue you mentioned, and I agree.
I simply cannot believe that in the entire WW Snape had no other choices. I'm sorry, for me it simply does not make sense. Look at it from your own point of view. If you were facing the choice of joining a gang of brutal murderers or going out into the world on your own, what choice would you make? Snape was a very smart man, he made the choice he thought would benifit him the most.

Quote:
Out of respect for the Mods sanity, I'm just going to say we don't have an objective source for this. The details have been raised enough times in these threads anyway, So I'll leave it there.
Of course.


Quote:
What instance are you referring to in PoA?[
In a post way back last year I wrote how I thought that Snape in the POA was verging on the edge of insanity. I thought his actions in the Shrieking Shack appalling. I am still of that opinion. I think that occasion and the delivery of the prophecy to LV and the followup to it were his lowest points. He had a high point, actually I think it was when he killed DD. You could read that he hated doing it, but he did it for the cause and he suffered the consequences without a whimper. But in the POA I think he behaved in a vicious and brutal manner. I really could not find any extenuating circumstances for what he did in that book.


  #460  
Old March 13th, 2010, 7:55 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.14

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
We have absolutely no idea how Sev was treated by the other Muggles in his neighborhood.
Actually I think we are given a very big clue from Petunia as to how Severus was treated by the other Muggles.

'I know who you are. You're that Snape boy!' (DH, The Prince's Tale)

So, how did Petunia know who Severus was? I think it is very probable that she had heard about him or had him pointed out to her by other Muggle children. Also going from her tone, 'I know who you are.' (emphasis as in text), that whatever she had heard about 'that Snape boy' was not kind. I think we only need to look at the way Severus was dressed to know that other children would have picked on him just for looking different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
The Tom Riddle who existed in the diary could not even fool an 11 year child for long. Snape had his demons, that I will agree on. At that time in his life, IMO his demons were his love for the Dark Arts.
Riddle charmed Ginny for different purposes than recuiting. He needed to possess her to get her to open the Chamber and let out the Basilisk. In fact, the only reason Ginny became suspicious was because she had been possessed by Riddle and couldn't remember what she had been doing. I am sure that when he came to recruit his DE's he used his charisma in very different ways.


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