The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by eliza101

I think that Peter cannot be discounted in the suspicion of Remus. It is telling that Remus never suspects James of misjudgement and then again Remus and Sirius confirm for us that Sirius did indeed suspect Remus and they say this in front of Peter.

Didn't I just agree with that?

There are two ways you come to a conclusion when you are given to pick one out of many (in this case two), you do it either by selection (knowing the exactly right choice) or you do by elimination (not knowing but ruling out the least probable). Selection was out of question in this case as they didn't know who the rat was (funny they didn't suspect the rat for being the rat ), so they had to eliminate. When you look at Remus you see potential...it was his qualifications that made it easier for him to operate undercover which worked against him. At the same time it was the lack of these qualifications on Peter's part that worked for him. No one expect him to be able to carry out such a task without causing suspicion.

So yeah I do support the idea that Peter did play a role in the blunder of 1981. But I don't think he had any a bigger role to play than as indicated above.

[firebird]

There are several reasons that i think the suspicion of werewolves may have been a factor.

Firstly i think that if forced to choose between a best friend, a tag along friend who had always appeared to be so harmless and another friend who suffered from a condition that instilled fear and suspicion in almost the entire wizard world then Remus would, unfortunately, be the least unacceptable solution.

Secondly i suspect that other members of the order, who were less loyal to Remus having not known him as closely or for as long as the Marauders, may have influenced the suspicion laid against Remus.

I'm still not sure about Peters active roll in discrediting Remus because i'm not convinced that he would be secure enough in his own possition within the friendship to openly risk setting the friends against each other.
But then he showed more spine that anyone expected when he slunk off to The Dark Lord so maybe i am misjudging his role.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by firebird

Secondly i suspect that other members of the order, who were less loyal to Remus having not known him as closely or for as long as the Marauders, may have influenced the suspicion laid against Remus.

I don't think that Sirius and James would have trusted anyone else over such a decision except for Dumbledore, and we all know Dumbledore hated prejudice and well was the guy who gave Remus the option to join school in the first place.

Originally Posted by firebird

I'm still not sure about Peters active roll in discrediting Remus because i'm not convinced that he would be secure enough in his own possition within the friendship to openly risk setting the friends against each other.

Oh I totally agree with you on that one, I don't see Peter sniveling around James and Sirius mouthing off against Remus. If he would have done that then he only would have been the suspect. No, I rather like to believe that he just proved his incompetence to carry on an enterprise of such delicacy that ruled in his favor.

[firebird]

Originally Posted by mysterious

Oh I totally agree with you on that one, I don't see Peter sniveling around James and Sirius mouthing off against Remus. If he would have done that then he only would have been the suspect. No, I rather like to believe that he just proved his incompetence to carry on an enterprise of such delicacy that ruled in his favor.

Given what we know of peters character and intelligence it is remarkable how cleverly and completely he was able to manipulate his close friends.
It makes me wonder whether or not he had advice on how to stage manage the situation from Lord V.

[ladyjade]

I think the fact the Sirius expected Peter to die for his friends from the came from being Marauder , I would supect that they had some kind of pact or unspoken loyalty to each other.

I think Remus may have understoond the close firendship between James and Sirius better than Peter may have . Peter was way out of the groups leauge talent wise and in looks that he could have felt left out anyway . I suspect that Peter thought it could have easily been him instead of Snape that would have been their favroite traget .

Remus was suspect due to his status as a werewolf and the suspicion that went along with it , Peter was able to use it to his advantage.

I think the other found James obsession with lily funny , think about it she was the one girl who rejected him over and over . James couldn't understand the reason why , being the most popular guy he was used to getting his way .

James , Remus and Sirius as well as Peter joined up of their own will , however with Peter he isn't given enough credit . I think he really wanted to fight and finaly prove to himself and to the others that he was capable and just as good and brave as the others . However once again couldn't and their side was losing so he joined the winning side at the time .

Once Peter up to the point of betraying his friends he truly wanted to do it , cause again I believe he felt beneath the others talent and was tired of seeing them getting the spotlight . So to prove to them he undermined them right under their noses and got them to distrust each other , so in a way he outshined them all breaking the supposed marauders trust in each other. However once it was done the only guilt he may have felt for was for lily. I dont think they would have fogiven peter , especally james and sirius cause trust is a huge deal for them .

I think Fred and George used their talents for laughter , however they did take peoples feelings into consideration . They were kind to others unless you gave them a reason not to be , hence umbridge . lol the maraunders were all for each other they did they wanted and didn't care about others . They were very full of themselves I really dont see how they were popular , I not a fan of them . Regulus is my favroite maraunder era character .

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by eliza101

I do agree with you that she probably meant the Marauders, or at least James and Sirius. She does not refer to them as the Marauders, and to tell the truth I think the name is kept between them. I can't be sure that Lily even included Remus in this conversation. The fact that Remus suffered such a terrible affliction was not his fault. I get the impression that Lily does not care one way or another about Remus' illness, and it is an illness. She cared that Snape was using the illness as a judgement against Remus and using it as an excuse to be cruel.
I really love how the Marauders are shown to be supportive and non-judgemental about Remus; affliction. They never judge him as being unworthy to attend Hogwarts because of his 'furry little problem'. Instead they work together to lessen the terrible effects of the lycanthropy. To keep him company and to distract him. Being young they took chances, thats true. They were young and daring. But in they 2 years that they were anamagi at the school no one was injured. This tells me two things, that they were not that careless, and that they kept their activities secret enough that no one ever suspected what they were doing. Also, they bring such a sense of fun and adventure to the books. These are books of adventure and the Marauders add to that sense of fun.

Exactly.

There are a few significant points that often get overlooked regarding the Marauders' decision to become animagi to help Lupin. First - and most important - nobody ever knows what kind of animal they will become until they succeed in making the transformation. James and Sirius discovered that their animagus forms were large animals - large enough to keep a werewolf in check. But when they started, they could not know that would be the case. They could have become insects or a small animal like Peter did. In that event, they would not have been able to keep a werewolf in check so they wouldn't have been able to prevent Lupin from hurting anyone.

Second - Lupin says on page that it was after they realized that James and Sirius became animals large enough to keep a werewolf in check that they realized the wondrous opportunity that presented. They could leave the shack. Lupin was less dangerous when they were with him because his mind was less "wolfish" and James and Sirius would be able to prevent him from hurting anyone. When they started out, they were only thinking about helping Lupin by becoming animals so they could safely keep him company and he would not have to go through that alone. After they had accomplished that and realized that Lupin was less dangerous when they were with them and that they could prevent him from hurting anyone, they ventured out of the shack to explore and have adventures.

Third - Lupin does say that there were some close calls. However, what is significant is the fact that those were close calls and not incidents of someone being killed, grievously injured, or afflicted with being a werewolf themselves because James and Sirius were always there to prevent Lupin from hurting anyone. They kept their word and did exactly what they said they would - they kept him in check and nobody got hurt because of him while they were around. They gave him the opportunity to be able to get out and move around without fear of hurting anyone instead of being cooped up in the shack, scratching and biting himself.

That is a wonderful thing, IMO. To have such loyal friends that you know without doubt that you can depend on - even to protect others from you - not many people can say they had friends like that in their lifetime.

Personally, I think Dumbledore would have been supportive of the Marauders helping Lupin if they had told him what they were doing. I think his reaction to finding out about it in POA demonstrates that. Lupin was less dangerous when they were with him and James and Sirius could prevent him from hurting anyone. I think he would have lectured them about leaving the grounds and instructed them to limit their activities to the forest, but as long as their adventures were not interfering with their studies, there really wasn't any reason for him not to let them stay with Lupin during his transformations in their animagus forms, IMO. As we see in POA, Dumbledore was proud of their achievement - not the least of which how they managed to keep it from him - but I think he was also proud of how that showed the depth and strength of their friendship in how they rallied to support Lupin through his transformations.

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

IMO, the whole secret keeper thing, has nothing to do with loyalty to their friend. It had everything to do with trust and the dark times they lived in. If I remember correctly it was explained in canon that they suspected Remus, because Sirius was in on the secret with James. As well as Peter, whom they underestimated and thought too weak for Voldemort to track for info about the Potters. That left out Remus. And in PoA, we were shown that both Remus and Sirius suspected each other and they both forgave each other. So I don't really think it was a matter of loyalty. Once they knew who the traitor was, they went back to their friendship as if nothing had happened. It had nothing to do with Lupin's infection either, imo.

"Not at all Padfoot, old friend" said Lupin

They even went back to using their old names instantly.

Also we see later that when Sirius saw his friend transform he didn't hesitate to join him, in order to save the Trio, and in respect to Remus' feelings -who imo wouldn't have been too happy if he'd hurt any of them-. IMO.

Exactly.

Again, I think there are significant factors being overlooked. It is Sirius who explains what things were like during the first war to the trio in GOF. They didn't know who they could trust because the Death Eaters' identities were not know. The Imperius Curse meant that anyone - even a close friend - could be forced to betray you. The Polyjuice potion meant that anyone around you could be an imposter. The Confundus Charm meant that anyone - even a close friend - could be tricked into doing something they would not normally do. At any time you could come home and find the Dark Mark hanging over your house - or the house of someone you cared about. Those were dark times.

From what we are shown, Sirius was not as trusting as James. And that is fitting because his childhood was completely different. He had been raised by people who practiced the Dark Arts and believed the pure-blood propaganda. His own brother became a Death Eater. He knew first hand what these people were capable of. I think Sirius was more pragmatic than James about things like that. I think we see that aspect of his nature when he explained how things were in the first war to the trio in GOF - not knowing who Voldemort's supporters were, not knowing who was working for him and who wasn't, and knowing that he could control people to make them do terrible things without being able to stop themselves.

I think we are given plenty of textual evidence to support that Sirius had plausible reasons to suspect Lupin without leaping to the conclusion that he was just prejudiced against him because he was a werewolf. Everything we know about Sirius shows us that he never had any issue with Lupin being a werewolf, IMO. It is more plausible that Pettigrew planted the seeds of doubt about Lupin to prevent Sirius from suspecting him. In such dark times, that would have been very simple. A comment about how people could be impersonated with Polyjuice potion, controlled with the Imperious curse, or even manipulated with the Confundus Charm - a seemingly innocent question about where Lupin was on a certain night or an idle observation that Lupin knew about something that Voldemort had discovered. Sirius came to suspect that Lupin was the spy, but I don't think Sirius ever thought Lupin would intentionally betray his friends. It is more likely that he was concerned about Lupin being tricked with Polyjuice Potion or the Confundus Charm or controlled by the Imperious Curse. I think it is more likely that Sirius simply wanted to be sure that nothing like that had happened with Lupin before he told him about the secret-keeper switch. He simply did not have enough time to do so before Pettigrew told Voldemort how to get to the Potters.

More importantly - Lupin knew that it did not have anything to do with him being a werewolf and understood that Sirius had a good reason for being suspicious. That is shown through his immediate understanding and forgiveness when he realized that Sirius had suspected him, IMO.

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

James was the glue that held the Marauders together. I think that is just the way of things. I think that Lupin and Sirius suspecting one another completely falls onto the fact that they had always been underestimating Peter. It seems apparent to me that information was leaking to Voldemort about the Marauders in some fashion and that it was Peter all along. Yet because Lupin and Sirius were always underestimating him they had no choice but to suspect one another. Their trust in Peter was absolute partially because they didn't believe him capable of undercover spying and secrecy. In my view Peter had been with Voldemort long enough to sow dissention between Sirius and Lupin and to set himself up as trustworthy.

And in defense of their underestimating Peter sometimes we like people because they are not competition for us. They do not try to steal the spotlight. They aren't aggressive. And they support us even when we're simply stupid. We feel safe with those people. That is what Peter provided to the group. That no matter how wild things got or how crazy they were or what mistakes they made they believed that Peter would always forgive them and be there for them. They didn't have to make excuses for themselves. And because he wasn't a risk taker it relieved them of having to worry about him when they were constantly worrying after one another due to their risky positions. He was worth being part of the group not because he fed their egos but because they felt like he wouldn't judge them. All the Marauders would have died for Peter without a second thought.

Those are all good points. Using the process of elimination, they would rule Pettigrew out first because none of them believed he was capable of something like that. I still think it was Pettigrew who played them against each other to ensure that nobody suspected him, but that would make it even easier for him to do so.

I see Pettigrew as a chameleon of sorts. He presented himself in the manner that he thought would make him most acceptable. He wanted to be friends with James, Sirius, and Lupin because they were the BMOC - intelligent, athletic, popular, etc... In school, he saw the Marauders as guaranteed protection for him - nobody was going to mess with him as long as they were there to stand up for him. He fooled everyone because he basically blended into the background. Nobody saw him as competition and nobody saw him as a threat. They saw him as somebody who needed their help and protection because that was what he wanted them to see. All three of them would have willingly died to protect him and they fully believed that he would do the same for them.

The rage that Sirius felt at Pettigrew for betraying them demonstrates that, IMO. His plan had not only been about protecting James, Lily, and Harry - it was also about protecting Pettigrew. He had been prepared to put his life on the line and set himself up as bait while the Potters and Pettigrew were safely hidden away with nobody ever knowing that Pettigrew was the real secret-keeper. He would have died before ever betraying any of them. And Pettigrew sold them all out - telling Voldemort how to get to the Potters so James and Lily were killed and then setting Sirius up to take the fall and spend 12 years in Azkaban for something he didn't do. To know that he would have willingly died to protect someone who had been going behind their backs for a year and giving information to Voldemort - that had to hurt.

In regards to transforming the Maruaders turn Lupin's lycanthropy into a cool thing. In a way Lupin was always ashamed of his lycathropy. But not only did the Marauders not hate him for it but they thought he was cool for it. How awesome to be able to skip classes and hangout in a shack and be wild and free and not have to report to anyone. How awesome to be able to scare your enemies. And certainly nobody would dare try to harm a full grown werewolf. The Marauders turned everything that Lupin hated about his lycanthropy into benefits. Sirius and James and Peter thought that Lupin was cool. They never pitied him, imho.

Also very good points. I agree.

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

Thanks. And I think that was why Peter was a Gryffindor and yet exhibited Slytherin like traits. Peter is like Neville gone awry.

That is implied in the text. Even Harry imagines Pettigrew as looking a bit like Neville when he first hears about him being the one to confront Sirius and believes that Sirius killed him. There are similarities there, but there is also one major difference between the two. Neville was always trying to prove himself and learn how to do things on his own. Pettigrew was always trying to figure out how to get others to do things for him and/or take care of him.

Pettigrew was a coward, but he didn't completely lack courage either. It took courage for him to face his friends every day for a year and lie to them while he was passing information to Voldemort behind their backs. It took courage for him to confront Sirius when he knew that Sirius was better at dueling. What Pettigrew lacked was nobility - not courage. He never figured out how to use his courage properly. I don't think Pettigrew really understood that courage is not the absence of fear, but rather finding the strength to deal with whatever the problem is in spite of your fear.

You also make a good point about Pettigrew demonstrating genuine malice in SWM. I don't think the Marauders ever realized Pettigrew had that kind of malice in him. They weren't watching him at that time and he hid it from them very well.

Originally Posted by mysterious

Didn't I just agree with that?

There are two ways you come to a conclusion when you are given to pick one out of many (in this case two), you do it either by selection (knowing the exactly right choice) or you do by elimination (not knowing but ruling out the least probable). Selection was out of question in this case as they didn't know who the rat was (funny they didn't suspect the rat for being the rat ), so they had to eliminate. When you look at Remus you see potential...it was his qualifications that made it easier for him to operate undercover which worked against him. At the same time it was the lack of these qualifications on Peter's part that worked for him. No one expect him to be able to carry out such a task without causing suspicion.

So yeah I do support the idea that Peter did play a role in the blunder of 1981. But I don't think he had any a bigger role to play than as indicated above.

That's all very true. Of the four of them, Pettigrew was the one that nobody would have suspected of being able to pull that off. Likewise, nobody thought that Voldemort would ever consider him capable of pulling something like that off. Their mistake was in not realizing that Voldemort would be most likely to go after the weakest link in the chain instead of the strongest. James, Sirius, and Lupin would have willingly died before betraying any of their friends - including Pettigrew. Pettigrew was the weak link - the one that nobody perceived as capable of such deception or such malice.

But that is also what would have made it easy for Pettigrew to manipulate them and turn their suspicions towards each other. They would never consider that he was the spy and it wouldn't occur to them that he was intentionally planting the seeds of doubt.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by ladyjade

I think the fact the Sirius expected Peter to die for his friends from the came from being Marauder , I would supect that they had some kind of pact or unspoken loyalty to each other.

I think they're just that close that Sirius would do it for them and so he feels they would feel the same way. I'm sure Remus and James do/did.

[sekhmetlion]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Exactly.

There are a few significant points that often get overlooked regarding the Marauders' decision to become animagi to help Lupin. First - and most important - nobody ever knows what kind of animal they will become until they succeed in making the transformation. James and Sirius discovered that their animagus forms were large animals - large enough to keep a werewolf in check. But when they started, they could not know that would be the case. They could have become insects or a small animal like Peter did. In that event, they would not have been able to keep a werewolf in check so they wouldn't have been able to prevent Lupin from hurting anyone.

Second - Lupin says on page that it was after they realized that James and Sirius became animals large enough to keep a werewolf in check that they realized the wondrous opportunity that presented. They could leave the shack. Lupin was less dangerous when they were with him because his mind was less "wolfish" and James and Sirius would be able to prevent him from hurting anyone. When they started out, they were only thinking about helping Lupin by becoming animals so they could safely keep him company and he would not have to go through that alone. After they had accomplished that and realized that Lupin was less dangerous when they were with them and that they could prevent him from hurting anyone, they ventured out of the shack to explore and have adventures.

Third - Lupin does say that there were some close calls. However, what is significant is the fact that those were close calls and not incidents of someone being killed, grievously injured, or afflicted with being a werewolf themselves because James and Sirius were always there to prevent Lupin from hurting anyone. They kept their word and did exactly what they said they would - they kept him in check and nobody got hurt because of him while they were around. They gave him the opportunity to be able to get out and move around without fear of hurting anyone instead of being cooped up in the shack, scratching and biting himself.

That is a wonderful thing, IMO. To have such loyal friends that you know without doubt that you can depend on - even to protect others from you - not many people can say they had friends like that in their lifetime.

Personally, I think Dumbledore would have been supportive of the Marauders helping Lupin if they had told him what they were doing. I think his reaction to finding out about it in POA demonstrates that. Lupin was less dangerous when they were with him and James and Sirius could prevent him from hurting anyone. I think he would have lectured them about leaving the grounds and instructed them to limit their activities to the forest, but as long as their adventures were not interfering with their studies, there really wasn't any reason for him not to let them stay with Lupin during his transformations in their animagus forms, IMO. As we see in POA, Dumbledore was proud of their achievement - not the least of which how they managed to keep it from him - but I think he was also proud of how that showed the depth and strength of their friendship in how they rallied to support Lupin through his transformations.



Exactly.

Again, I think there are significant factors being overlooked. It is Sirius who explains what things were like during the first war to the trio in GOF. They didn't know who they could trust because the Death Eaters' identities were not know. The Imperius Curse meant that anyone - even a close friend - could be forced to betray you. The Polyjuice potion meant that anyone around you could be an imposter. The Confundus Charm meant that anyone - even a close friend - could be tricked into doing something they would not normally do. At any time you could come home and find the Dark Mark hanging over your house - or the house of someone you cared about. Those were dark times.

From what we are shown, Sirius was not as trusting as James. And that is fitting because his childhood was completely different. He had been raised by people who practiced the Dark Arts and believed the pure-blood propaganda. His own brother became a Death Eater. He knew first hand what these people were capable of. I think Sirius was more pragmatic than James about things like that. I think we see that aspect of his nature when he explained how things were in the first war to the trio in GOF - not knowing who Voldemort's supporters were, not knowing who was working for him and who wasn't, and knowing that he could control people to make them do terrible things without being able to stop themselves.

I think we are given plenty of textual evidence to support that Sirius had plausible reasons to suspect Lupin without leaping to the conclusion that he was just prejudiced against him because he was a werewolf. Everything we know about Sirius shows us that he never had any issue with Lupin being a werewolf, IMO. It is more plausible that Pettigrew planted the seeds of doubt about Lupin to prevent Sirius from suspecting him. In such dark times, that would have been very simple. A comment about how people could be impersonated with Polyjuice potion, controlled with the Imperious curse, or even manipulated with the Confundus Charm - a seemingly innocent question about where Lupin was on a certain night or an idle observation that Lupin knew about something that Voldemort had discovered. Sirius came to suspect that Lupin was the spy, but I don't think Sirius ever thought Lupin would intentionally betray his friends. It is more likely that he was concerned about Lupin being tricked with Polyjuice Potion or the Confundus Charm or controlled by the Imperious Curse. I think it is more likely that Sirius simply wanted to be sure that nothing like that had happened with Lupin before he told him about the secret-keeper switch. He simply did not have enough time to do so before Pettigrew told Voldemort how to get to the Potters.

More importantly - Lupin knew that it did not have anything to do with him being a werewolf and understood that Sirius had a good reason for being suspicious. That is shown through his immediate understanding and forgiveness when he realized that Sirius had suspected him, IMO.



Those are all good points. Using the process of elimination, they would rule Pettigrew out first because none of them believed he was capable of something like that. I still think it was Pettigrew who played them against each other to ensure that nobody suspected him, but that would make it even easier for him to do so.

I see Pettigrew as a chameleon of sorts. He presented himself in the manner that he thought would make him most acceptable. He wanted to be friends with James, Sirius, and Lupin because they were the BMOC - intelligent, athletic, popular, etc... In school, he saw the Marauders as guaranteed protection for him - nobody was going to mess with him as long as they were there to stand up for him. He fooled everyone because he basically blended into the background. Nobody saw him as competition and nobody saw him as a threat. They saw him as somebody who needed their help and protection because that was what he wanted them to see. All three of them would have willingly died to protect him and they fully believed that he would do the same for them.

The rage that Sirius felt at Pettigrew for betraying them demonstrates that, IMO. His plan had not only been about protecting James, Lily, and Harry - it was also about protecting Pettigrew. He had been prepared to put his life on the line and set himself up as bait while the Potters and Pettigrew were safely hidden away with nobody ever knowing that Pettigrew was the real secret-keeper. He would have died before ever betraying any of them. And Pettigrew sold them all out - telling Voldemort how to get to the Potters so James and Lily were killed and then setting Sirius up to take the fall and spend 12 years in Azkaban for something he didn't do. To know that he would have willingly died to protect someone who had been going behind their backs for a year and giving information to Voldemort - that had to hurt.



Also very good points. I agree.



That is implied in the text. Even Harry imagines Pettigrew as looking a bit like Neville when he first hears about him being the one to confront Sirius and believes that Sirius killed him. There are similarities there, but there is also one major difference between the two. Neville was always trying to prove himself and learn how to do things on his own. Pettigrew was always trying to figure out how to get others to do things for him and/or take care of him.

Pettigrew was a coward, but he didn't completely lack courage either. It took courage for him to face his friends every day for a year and lie to them while he was passing information to Voldemort behind their backs. It took courage for him to confront Sirius when he knew that Sirius was better at dueling. What Pettigrew lacked was nobility - not courage. He never figured out how to use his courage properly. I don't think Pettigrew really understood that courage is not the absence of fear, but rather finding the strength to deal with whatever the problem is in spite of your fear.

You also make a good point about Pettigrew demonstrating genuine malice in SWM. I don't think the Marauders ever realized Pettigrew had that kind of malice in him. They weren't watching him at that time and he hid it from them very well.



That's all very true. Of the four of them, Pettigrew was the one that nobody would have suspected of being able to pull that off. Likewise, nobody thought that Voldemort would ever consider him capable of pulling something like that off. Their mistake was in not realizing that Voldemort would be most likely to go after the weakest link in the chain instead of the strongest. James, Sirius, and Lupin would have willingly died before betraying any of their friends - including Pettigrew. Pettigrew was the weak link - the one that nobody perceived as capable of such deception or such malice.

But that is also what would have made it easy for Pettigrew to manipulate them and turn their suspicions towards each other. They would never consider that he was the spy and it wouldn't occur to them that he was intentionally planting the seeds of doubt.

I absolutely agree with everything said before, I couldn't have explained better myself!
Specially when you mention Pettigrew's genuine malice and the fact that he represented no threat to any of his friends, so that's why he was allowed to the group, he acted as a balsam for the strong ego's of James and Sirius and for the poor ego of Lupin (although I believe Lupin agreed with him in the group just for being accepted as well, I mean he agreed with Sirius and James because he also wanted to be accepted by them).

And I really believe that the reason for Sirius suspecting Lupin is because Pettigrew was disregarded due to his weakness. Plus the fact that it fits Pettigrew to have seed distrust between Lupin and Sirius. If the lycantrophy was the reason, then, James and Sirius wouldn't have been friends with Remus in first place.

[Bella_Crucio_U]

If the lycantrophy was the reason, then, James and Sirius wouldn't have been friends with Remus in first place.

Thank you for saying this. There are actually many people who think Lupin being a werewolf was a reason that Sirius suspected him as the spy. I really do just think that it was process of elimination. Wormtail was too weak so that left Moony.

meesha1971-Lovely post. I also agree with everything you stated.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Personally, I think Dumbledore would have been supportive of the Marauders helping Lupin if they had told him what they were doing. I think his reaction to finding out about it in POA demonstrates that. Lupin was less dangerous when they were with him and James and Sirius could prevent him from hurting anyone. I think he would have lectured them about leaving the grounds and instructed them to limit their activities to the forest, but as long as their adventures were not interfering with their studies, there really wasn't any reason for him not to let them stay with Lupin during his transformations in their animagus forms, IMO.

Honestly, I doubt about Dumbledore's support for that. Dumbledore's responsibility was his students' safety also, not only the bystanders'. He did everything to separate Lupin from the others during the full moon, and I'm sure he would also do anything to prevent any accident, if there was a slightest possibility to it. The Marauders put themselves in danger, they put in danger other people. I can't see any serious teacher accepting this. I don't think he would limite to a "lecture" if he had knew about what they were doing.

Of course, he admires their skills in becoming the Animagi (it is an achievement), but remember, that it happens years after. James is dead, Sirius spent 12 years in prison, there is no need to be picky about the old sins. They aren't his students anymore. It's simply too late to scold them.

[meesha1971]

sekhmetlion and Bella_Crucio_U - Thank you.

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

Honestly, I doubt about Dumbledore's support for that. Dumbledore's responsibility was his students' safety also, not only the bystanders'. He did everything to separate Lupin from the others during the full moon, and I'm sure he would also do anything to prevent any accident, if there was a slightest possibility to it. The Marauders put themselves in danger, they put in danger other people. I can't see any serious teacher accepting this. I don't think he would limite to a "lecture" if he had knew about what they were doing.

Of course, he admires their skills in becoming the Animagi (it is an achievement), but remember, that it happens years after. James is dead, Sirius spent 12 years in prison, there is no need to be picky about the old sins. They aren't his students anymore. It's simply too late to scold them.

Well, that is the point. The mauraders did not put themselves in danger to keep Lupin company. They came up with a way to keep Lupin company that ensured their own safety - werewolves are not a danger to other animals. After they had succeeded in the transformation, they discovered that Lupin was less dangerous when they were around because his mind was less wolfish with the bonus of James and Sirius becoming such large animals that they could protect others from Lupin as well - which they did.

Keeping Lupin locked up in the shack wasn't the best solution because it resulted in him hurting himself - it was the only solution at the time Dumbledore came up with it. What the Marauders did was a much better solution because Lupin could get out and move around, he was not hurting himself, and James and Sirius were always there to make sure that he did not hurt anyone else. I think Dumbledore would have instructed them to stay in the forest - and made sure they did so - but I see no reason for him not to have let them continue since it was a much better solution than locking Lupin up once a month and allowing him to continue hurting himself.

The students were not supposed to out of the dormitories at a certain time each day and they were not allowed to go into the Forbidden Forest without a teacher present at any time. Any student who broke those rules would be at fault for anything that happened to them. And, yes, I would include the Marauders in that - as well as the trio during their time. The Marauders showed intelligence and caution in coming up with a plan that would ensure their safety and carrying it out. The trio also showed caution, but Ron and Harry didn't have the best plan when they went into the Forbidden Forest on their own. If they had been injured, that would have been their fault - not Dumbledores. The Forbidden Forest would have been the best option with all four of the Marauders being animals at those times.

Everyone knew that there were all sorts of dangerous creatures living in the Forbidden Forest - like the acromantula. Adding a werewolf to the mix once a month wasn't going to change things all that much, IMO. If the students broke the rules and went into the forest on their own - particularly at night when they were supposed to be in their dormitory - whatever happened to them in the forest would be their fault because they had been warned about the danger. It's like that man whose hat flew off while he was riding a roller coaster. When the ride was over, he asked about getting his hat back and was told that it was too dangerous to try and get it then so he would have to wait until the amusement park closed. He didn't want to wait so he ignored all the warnings of danger and climbed over the fence - and was beheaded by the roller coaster. The amusement park couldn't be blamed for that - they told him it was dangerous and he ignored them. It was his own fault for ignoring the warning. Allowing Lupin to stay in the forest during his transformations - with the Marauders there to prevent him from going anywhere else - would have been acceptable, IMO.

For me it is no different than allowing Lupin to use the Wolfsbane potion when he was an adult and teaching at Hogwarts. Dumbledore could have insisted that Lupin still lock himself up each month instead of insisting that Snape brew the potion for Lupin each month, but he didn't because the Wolfsbane potion made Lupin less dangerous without cooping him up in a situation where he could hurt himself. None of the options presented were perfect - nothing ever is - but I think Dumbledore would prefer the options that included Lupin's well being as well as protecting the students.

And, really, we are talking about a man who decided it was a good idea to put a vicious, giant, three-headed dog inside the castle behind a door easily opened with Alohomora as the first obstacle in protecting the Sorcerer's Stone - the students were warned that corridor was out of bounds for anyone who did not "wish to die a very painful death". Not to mention a giant plant that would strangle them, giant chess pieces made of stone that would attack them, a troll, and Snape's poisons - all inside the castle behind an easily opened locked door the kids could get to at any time - intentionally or accidentally as we saw with Harry and Ron getting lost. Honestly, I think having Lupin roam around the Forbidden Forest during his transformations with two animagi who became animals large enough to protect others from him would not be considered a big deal compared to that.

[Bella_Crucio_U]

meesha1971-I agree. I'm also under the impression that Dumbledore wouldn't have minded. You pretty much said everything I was thinking about the whole "the forest is out of bounds anyway so nobody would go there. If they did it's there fault for getting hurt" thing. You also made a good point about the Sorcerer's Stone being in the castle with dangerous things blocking it. It's all at your own risk. I honestly don't think Dumbledore would have minded James, Sirius, and Wormtail becoming animagi and keeping Remus in check.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Bella_Crucio_U

meesha1971-I agree. I'm also under the impression that Dumbledore wouldn't have minded. You pretty much said everything I was thinking about the whole "the forest is out of bounds anyway so nobody would go there. If they did it's there fault for getting hurt" thing. You also made a good point about the Sorcerer's Stone being in the castle with dangerous things blocking it. It's all at your own risk. I honestly don't think Dumbledore would have minded James, Sirius, and Wormtail becoming animagi and keeping Remus in check.

Exactly. There's only so much Dumbledore can do - or the teachers for that matter. The students also have to be held responsible for what they do - particularly when they have been warned.

The Marauders broke the rules to help Lupin. Had they not been so careful in making sure they could be around Lupin safely, it would have been their fault if they got hurt. Likewise, if they had just wandered into the Forbidden Forest without transforming and were injured - or eaten - by one of the dangerous creatures in the forest, that would also have been their fault because they knew the danger. The Marauders demonstrated that they knew what the risks were because their actions went towards removing those risks - they were cautious and took the time to make sure they could each successfully do the transformation before they even attempted to go to the Shack with Lupin. They didn't tell Dumbledore because they didn't think he would understand or allow them to do that. We see that with Harry early on as well - he often chooses not to go to Dumbledore or tell him something because he assumes the Headmaster will automatically say "no" or punish him for breaking rules. As Harry got older and got to know Dumbledore better, he came to understand there were things he would allow and that he would take the circumstances into consideration before punishing someone - but even then, Harry had a tendency to expect Dumbledore to refuse or get upset and was surprised when he didn't. The Marauders didn't have that kind of relationship with Dumbledore so it makes sense that they would continue to assume he would say "no" or get upset. However, from what we see of Dumbledore, the Marauders were wrong about that. Restricting them to the forest would have been Dumbledore's primary concern about all that, IMO.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

The students were not supposed to out of the dormitories at a certain time each day and they were not allowed to go into the Forbidden Forest without a teacher present at any time. Any student who broke those rules would be at fault for anything that happened to them. And, yes, I would include the Marauders in that - as well as the trio during their time. The Marauders showed intelligence and caution in coming up with a plan that would ensure their safety and carrying it out. The trio also showed caution, but Ron and Harry didn't have the best plan when they went into the Forbidden Forest on their own. If they had been injured, that would have been their fault - not Dumbledores.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. Of course, I don't know how it's working in the fictional wizarding world, but in the real one, and at least in my country, a teacher, and a Headmaster of a school, are fully responsible for every one of their students when they are under their care. We are speaking of underage students. We are speaking of children. You don't allow your students do whatever they want with an excuse that they have been warned, because children very often have stupid ideas and put themselves in danger without thinking. That's why I don't believe Dumbledore would approve the Marauders' actions.

But of course, maybe in the wizarding world everything is different and Headmasters find that students running with a werewolf are a normal thing.

Everyone knew that there were all sorts of dangerous creatures living in the Forbidden Forest - like the acromantula. Adding a werewolf to the mix once a month wasn't going to change things all that much, IMO.

It doesn't excuse the Maraduders, IMHO. There any many thieves around, but it doesn't mean it's okay if I steal, too.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

Sorry, but I completely disagree. Of course, I don't know how it's working in the fictional wizarding world, but in the real one, and at least in my country, a teacher, and a Headmaster of a school, are fully responsible for every one of their students when they are under their care. We are speaking of underage students. We are speaking of children. You don't allow your students do whatever they want with an excuse that they have been warned, because children very often have stupid ideas and put themselves in danger without thinking. That's why I don't believe Dumbledore would approve the Marauders' actions.

But of course, maybe in the wizarding world everything is different and Headmasters find that students running with a werewolf are a normal thing.

Well, that was the point - it wasn't normal because most people would have shunned Lupin and avoided him because of something he could not control. The prejudice against werewolves was rampant and made Lupin's life extremely difficult. One of the most heartbreaking moments was when he admitted that he had expected his friends to abandon him when they found out that he was a werewolf. But they were good people and did not hold such prejudice against him - they stood by his side when others would have shunned him. That is a good thing, IMO. And I think Dumbledore saw it that way as well.

But, in terms of discipline, students who are caught breaking the rules and putting themselves in danger would be punished for doing so. The teachers and other staff do not deserve to be punished because a student broke the rules. There is only so much they can do in that regard. They are not responsible for the students' actions. They are responsible for disciplining the students if/when they are caught in such situations.

This situation is an extenuating circumstance. What the Marauders did for Lupin was a good thing and it made him less dangerous. They did not go about it in exactly the right way, but their motives were good because they wanted to help their friend. And they did help him more than they even realized was possible when they started out. I think Dumbledore would have given them credit for that.

For example - look at what Harry and Ron did in COS. They broke a lot of rules and put themselves in danger doing so. But Dumbledore acknowledged that the reason they broke those rules was because they were trying to help. And, in the end, they did help and Harry killed the basilisk. Dumbledore did not punish them - he rewarded them for the good they did. I think he would have done the same for the Marauders.

It doesn't excuse the Maraduders, IMHO. There any many thieves around, but it doesn't mean it's okay if I steal, too.

I did not say it excused the Marauders. They broke the rules and that wasn't the best way to go about it. My point was that they could have gone to Dumbledore and gotten permission because - overall - what they did for Lupin was good. He was less dangerous because he kept his mind and his friends were with him and able to prevent him from hurting anyone. Dumbledore allowing them to continue doing that as long as they stayed in the forest at those times and were not near the castle or going into the village would have been acceptable because the forest - just like the Whomping Willow - was restricted. They wouldn't be putting any other student - or anyone else - in danger that way. And they wouldn't have been breaking any rules if they had gone to Dumbledore and gotten his permission.

In that scenario, if a student broke the rules by going into the forest when they were not supposed to, it would be the student who was punished because they were somewhere that they were not supposed to be. I think Dumbledore would have included Lupin's well being into his decision - being locked up in that shack where he was hurting himself wasn't the best option. It was the only option Dumbledore had at the time. The Marauders came up with a better option because it would protect others as well as Lupin and I think Dumbledore would have acknowledged that.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

My point was that they could have gone to Dumbledore and gotten permission because - overall - what they did for Lupin was good. He was less dangerous because he kept his mind and his friends were with him and able to prevent him from hurting anyone. Dumbledore allowing them to continue doing that as long as they stayed in the forest at those times and were not near the castle or going into the village would have been acceptable because the forest - just like the Whomping Willow - was restricted. They wouldn't be putting any other student - or anyone else - in danger that way.

Then, why didn't they go and ask Dumbledore? Because, IMHO, they knew he would never approve it. Because what they were doing was simply dangerous, potentially dangerous for other people and for themselves. Dumbledore was already risking a lot letting a werewolf being a student. Actually allowing this werewolf to run in the Forest, and above all in the company of three other teenagers would be a proof of his complete insanity.

The option Dumbledore chose maybe wasn't "the best" for Lupin, but it wasn't meant for Lupin's pleasure. It was for the other people's safety. I can't imagine DD letting this safety in the hands (or paws) of three teenage boys who could get hurt also.

And I don't think we can compare it to what Ron and Harry did in CoS. They were saving Ginny's life, and Harry was the only person who could do this, because of the Parseltongue. The Marauders were actually risking their and other people's lives.

[MinervasCat]

Yes, I agree. It is even mentioned by Lupin that they had some close calls with humans while running around the countryside. I think it was a seriously inconsiderate and careless thing to do, and, I had Dumbledore known about it, I think he would have put a stop to it...possibly going as far as expelling Lupin for not sticking to their agreement about the Shrieking Shack.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

Then, why didn't they go and ask Dumbledore? Because, IMHO, they knew he would never approve it. Because what they were doing was simply dangerous, potentially dangerous for other people and for themselves. Dumbledore was already risking a lot letting a werewolf being a student. Actually allowing this werewolf to run in the Forest, and above all in the company of three other teenagers would be a proof of his complete insanity.

The option Dumbledore chose maybe wasn't "the best" for Lupin, but it wasn't meant for Lupin's pleasure. It was for the other people's safety. I can't imagine DD letting this safety in the hands (or paws) of three teenage boys who could get hurt also.

And I don't think we can compare it to what Ron and Harry did in CoS. They were saving Ginny's life, and Harry was the only person who could do this, because of the Parseltongue. The Marauders were actually risking their and other people's lives.

What Harry and Ron did in COS is only one example. Dumbledore showed on numerous occasions that he was not so narrow minded. What the Marauders did not was not dangerous for themselves because they took precautions for their own safety by becoming animagi before trying to keep him company during his transformations. Likewise, they considered the safety of others because they did not decide to leave the shack until after they realized that Lupin was much less dangerous when they were around because he kept his mind around them as well as James and Sirius becoming animals large enough to prevent him from hurting anyone. There were close calls, but that is significant because it shows how effective their preparations were - those close calls were not incidents of someone being injured, killed, or afflicted with being a werewolf themselves because James and Sirius were there to prevent Lupin from hurting anyone.

For me, the bottom line is that Lupin's well being was just as important as anyone else's. It was not his fault that he was a werewolf and he was never reckless in how he handled his condition - nor were his friends. They showed caution as well as compassion for their friend and they made sure that he never hurt anyone. I can't imagine Dumbledore being so narrow minded as to not take that into consideration. The only thing the Marauders did wrong was being out on the grounds after curfew without permission, IMO.

The Marauders didn't go to Dumbledore for the same reason that Harry so often chose not to go to Dumbledore and to lie to Dumbledore when asked about what was going on. They were kids and they expected adults not to listen or not to understand. That's normal. Harry came to realize that Dumbledore did understand because of the time he spent with him - Dumbledore came to be more than just an authority figure to Harry. The Marauders never had that opportunity. Dumbledore was always just an authority figure to them.

Like I said before, this is the same man who decided it would be a good idea to put a giant, vicious three-headed dog in place to guard the entrance to the dungeon where the stone was being protected. The only protection against the dog was a door that was easily unlocked with Alohomora. Any student could have found themselves face to face with that dog at any time of the day - as we see with Harry and Ron getting lost and trying to open the door as well as the trio and Neville ducking behind that door to hide from Filch. Allowing the Marauders to safely keep Lupin company in the Forbidden Forest where students were restricted to go would not have been a big deal at all, IMO. Given what we know of Dumbledore, I can't imagine any reason why he would not have allowed them to do that as long as they stayed in the forest.

[The_Green_Woods]

I don't think Lupin's wellbeing is important at the cost of other lives. I think Lupin was entitled to a life just like anyone else, but that did not mean he could put others at risk, when he was a werewolf. By roaming with the other Marauders (for which I think all if them except Peter perhaps, are responsible) in the grounds and in Hogsmeade, they could have easily hurt someone badly and had they done so, it would have been Lupin who would have suffered the worst imo.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't think Lupin's wellbeing is important at the cost of other lives. I think Lupin was entitled to a life just like anyone else, but that did not mean he could put others at risk, when he was a werewolf. By roaming with the other Marauders (for which I think all if them except Peter perhaps, are responsible) in the grounds and in Hogsmeade, they could have easily hurt someone badly and had they done so, it would have been Lupin who would have suffered the worst imo.

That's the point though - they took steps to make sure that they didn't. Lupin couldn't have easily hurt anyone at those times because his mind was less wolfish in the presence of his friends and they were there to stop him. And they did stop him.

Lupin was suffering in having to be locked up - he was hurting himself. That was the only option Dumbledore had at the time, but it was not a good one because it caused Lupin to suffer. The Marauders came up with a plan in which nobody had to suffer. They didn't go about it the right way because they didn't trust Dumbledore to understand - and that was a mistake. If Dumbledore had known, he would have helped them - not stopped them, IMO.