Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

[gertiekeddle]

Oh right, it's possible to read it this way too - and then it's no contradiction to what JK said later on at all. Thanks!

One could be mean and say Peter might not even have considered the personal risk in order to keep himself close to James and Sirius, but I too think this scene (along with the search for Voldemort) is one where he actually is brave. It feels wrong because we usually associate bravery - and for partcular what JK introduced as Griffindor-bravery - with fighthing for a good thing for the right reasons (he did neither imo), but based on a pure level I can't see deny him that it is brave. It's many other things too, though.

[flimseycauldron]

You know I imagine Peter and Harry had very similar sorting hat experiences. We must remember that the Sorting Hat seriously considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Some of it was the bond with Voldy but even Harry thought he had enough traits to be in Slytherin. And I wouldn't be surprised either if the Sorting Hat often places people in Houses that they need to be better people rather than the house that would best fit them. Hermione could have been in Ravenclaw. Neville in Hufflepuff. But they needed Gryffindor to build up those parts of their personality that perhaps was a little lacking at first.

I imagine it was something similar for Peter. He would have been better in Slytherin according to his personality. Or would he? There wasn't a witch or wizard gone bad that wasn't in Slytherin. While we know that quote from Ron not to be true, being in Slytherin could have made Peter an even worse person or he could have gone bad even sooner. Sometimes we don't want to play up our weaknesses. Which is what the Sorting Hat would have been doing with Peter had it not put Peter in Gryffindor.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

There wasn't a witch or wizard gone bad that wasn't in Slytherin. While we know that quote from Ron not to be true, being in Slytherin could have made Peter an even worse person or he could have gone bad even sooner. Sometimes we don't want to play up our weaknesses. Which is what the Sorting Hat would have been doing with Peter had it not put Peter in Gryffindor.

Correct me if I understand wrong, but does that mean that all those sorted in Slytherin are lost cause and destined to go bad/evil.

[LittleBug]

Originally Posted by mysterious

Correct me if I understand wrong, but does that mean that all those sorted in Slytherin are lost cause and destined to go bad/evil.

Absolutely not, both Snape and Slughorn were in Slytherin. And while Snape went bad for a while, he came back to the good side. And Slughorn was in hiding so the DE's couldn't recruit him. He sided with Dumbledore as well.

Just because you get put in Slytherin doesn't mean you are evil. It just means your dominating trait is ambition. The problem is unchecked ambition might lead you down paths that others won't go to get what you want.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by LittleBug

Absolutely not, both Snape and Slughorn were in Slytherin. And while Snape went bad for a while, he came back to the good side. And Slughorn was in hiding so the DE's couldn't recruit him. He sided with Dumbledore as well.

Just because you get put in Slytherin doesn't mean you are evil. It just means your dominating trait is ambition. The problem is unchecked ambition might lead you down paths that others won't go to get what you want.

I know that and that is why I posed the question for flimsey to confirm if that is what she meant when she said what has been quoted in my previous post.

[LittleBug]

Originally Posted by mysterious

I know that and that is why I posed the question for flimsey to confirm if that is what she meant when she said what has been quoted in my previous post.

Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood your intent.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by mysterious

Correct me if I understand wrong, but does that mean that all those sorted in Slytherin are lost cause and destined to go bad/evil.

Not at all. In fact there are some kids to whom ambition and cunning are totally foriegn ideals. But there are plenty of careers, for instance, that require a certain amount of cunning and ambition to get anywhere. I imagine ministry jobs would fall into that category. Arthur was the perfect Gryffindor but would it have hurt him to learn some Slytherin traits? I don't think so. Percy is a great example of another Gryffindor who had definate Slytherin traits. I think being put in Slytherin House would have amplified those ambitious qualities with nothing to temper it.

But we're really veering off into "Does the Sorting Hat sort too soon" thread. For the sake of Peter I would say that going into Slytherin would have been bad for him and that was why he wasn't sorted there.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

I think being put in Slytherin House would have amplified those ambitious qualities with nothing to temper it.

Exactly, so don't you think Peter who had the ambitious quality of self serving, would have done a lot better in Slytherin

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by mysterious

Exactly, so don't you think Peter who had the ambitious quality of self serving, would have done a lot better in Slytherin

The end of my quote says "with nothing to temper it." I think that if had been put into Slytherin that he would have turned for the worse earlier than he did. He needed to be in Gryffindor because Gryffindor was known for traits that Peter didn't posess in great quantity and so he needed a model for those qualities that he wouldn't easily find in Slytherin. My question really boils down to what good would it have done Peter to be in Slytherin? What would he have gained from that House? Friends? He had friends. Friends that would have died for him even.

[LittleBug]

I don't think the Sorting Hat takes into consideration your future. I think it just looks inside your head for the qualities the four founders would have looked at and sorts you according to which founder would have wanted you in their house. I doubt the Hat does anything because it wants to put a damper on your ambition. If Peter had ambition, and that was his most dominant trait, I think he would have been put in Slytherin. His most dominant trait at age 11 would have had to have been bravery, daring, or chivalry. Just because he didn't have any of these strongly didn't mean they weren't there. All they have to be is the most dominant out of all the ones he has.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by LittleBug

I don't think the Sorting Hat takes into consideration your future. I think it just looks inside your head for the qualities the four founders would have looked at and sorts you according to which founder would have wanted you in their house.

Maybe. But the goal of any school would be to turn out a well rounded student. The fact is that if the founders were so intent upon having little carbon copies of themselves they could each of them have opened a new school and accepted only those students that fit their profile.

[LittleBug]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

Maybe. But the goal of any school would be to turn out a well rounded student. The fact is that if the founders were so intent upon having little carbon copies of themselves they could each of them have opened a new school and accepted only those students that fit their profile.

They pretty much did have their own school within Hogwarts. That's why the houses were founded in the first place, so they could teach only the students they wanted to teach. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but that was the purpose of the houses.

As the Sorting Hat sang:

Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those
Whose ancestry's purest."
Said Ravenclaw, "We'll teach those whose
Intelligence is surest"
Said Gryffindor, "We'll teach all those
With brave deeds to their name."
Said Hufflepuff, "I'll teach the lot
And treat them just the same."
These differences caused little strife
When first they came to light.
For each of the four founders had
A house in which they might
Take only those they wanted, so,
For instance, Slytherin
Took only pure-blood wizards
Of great cunning just like him.
And only those of sharpest mind
Were taught by Ravenclaw
While the bravest and the boldest
Went to daring Gryffindor.
Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest
and taught them all she knew,
Thus, the Houses and their founders
Maintained friendships firm and true.

And:

They shared a wish, a hope, a dream,
they hatched a daring plan
to educate young sorcerers
thus Hogwarts School began.
Now each of these four founders
formed their own house, for each
did value different virtues
in the ones they had to teach.

...

While still alive they did divide
Their favorites from the throng,
Yet how to pick the worthy ones
When they were dead and gone?

'Twas Gryffindor who found the way,
He whipped me off his head
The founders put some brains in me
So I could choose instead!
Now slip me snug about your ears,
I've never yet been wrong,
I'll have a look inside your mind
And tell where you belong!

[Nyjets4004]

Maybe Jo wanted to show us that not only wizards in Slytherin can go bad, even wizards in other houses can go bad

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by LittleBug

Now each of these four founders
formed their own house, for each
did value different virtues
in the ones they had to teach.

But as we know all the house teachers teach the students from other houses not just Hufflepuff teachers. So this is innacurate. As is the following:

Now slip me snug about your ears,
I've never yet been wrong,
I'll have a look inside your mind
And tell where you belong!

If the accuracy of the Hat song is to be believed then we must believe that Peter belonged in Gryffindor. Why was Peter put into Gryffindor if we clearly see Slytherin traits? And have to twist Peter's actions into some semblance of bravery when we know he was cowardly not brave? Where someone belongs is not necessarily where they fit in. Peter certainly fit in with Slytherin crowd. I imagine that when children are sorted into Slytherin they would have to work very hard to not be tarnished with a negative brush right off the gun. You would have to be very confident and self aware in Slytherin to be able to make it in that House. And those were not traits that Peter exhibited at all.

You know after all this talk of Slytherin/Gryffindor where I don't think he really fits in at all I've come to look at the other Houses. Hufflepuff is obviously not the right fir for him in any capacity but I often wonder given his ability to turn become an animagi if Peter would have been better off in Ravenclaw?

[Yoana]

"Self-serving" and "ambitious" are far from synonymous. Seeing as the highest goal Peter seemed to have ever set for himself was to stay out of danger, I really can't agree that he was ambitious.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by Yoana

"Self-serving" and "ambitious" are far from synonymous. Seeing as the highest goal Peter seemed to have ever set for himself was to stay out of danger, I really can't agree that he was ambitious.

Very good point.

[Frogki]

What you guys have to remember is a qoute from COS. "It is our choices, Harry, far more than our abilities, that show us for who we truly are". Pettigrews choices led to his betrayal, he could have been fighting Voldemort, but he made the cowardly choice to fight for him. Remember another qoute from Dumbledore... I forget where it is, I think Snapes memories in Deathly Hallows. "You know, sometimes I think we sort too soon"...

But as we know all the house teachers teach the students from other houses not just Hufflepuff teachers. So this is innacurate. As is the following:

That's not what the sorting hat meant when it said that Hufflepuff would take the lot. It meant that it doesn't really matter to her, they don't really have to be anything special, and she'll treat them all fairly...

[RowenaR]

I always kinda saw Peter as like a Neville gone bad. So like Neville had hidden potential the Hat saw, so did Peter, he just used it for the wrong thing.

[i wish i knew]

Dumbledore tells Snape in DH that he often thinks they sort too soon at Hogwarts. Maybe when Peter was eleven he showed more signs of belonging in Gryffindor. People change.

[NargleNonsense]

I don't know. I often think about this when I'm reading HPB. I mean, he was a backstabbing coward, wasn't he? He had nowhere near the brains, nor the cunning, so Slytherin and Ravenclaw were out. So it was between Hufflepuff and Gryffindor. Perhaps he heard James and Sirius talking about Gryffindor and desprately wished himself in. I'll bet anything that he was trying to show off for the people that he met on the train. I don't think it was an accurate depiction of his character, but it's what happened, unfortunately. Think, what would've happened to the Potters had James never met Wormtail.... hm.