Severus Snape: Character Analysis Volume 2

[ccollinsmith]

Occlumency, as I understand it, does not create false memories. It shields compromising memories.

The only memories Snape needs to give to Harry imo are the memories with Dumbledore. The Dumbledore memories tell of Severus' love for Harry's mother and his pledge to protect her son. They tell the story of the ring curse and Dumbledore's extraction of Snape's promise to kill him. They tell the story of the Silver Doe and the Sword of Gryffindor and the 7 Potters and the piece of Voldemort's soul living in Harry. These memories alone are sufficient to show Harry Snape's true agenda.

But rather than give Harry only the memories he needs to see, Snape gives to Harry his most embarrassing and humiliating memories - memories he never wanted anybody, much less the boy, to see. In his dying moment, Severus Snape gives to Harry a very great gift - memories of Lily, even though they are memories at Severus' own expense. In his dying moments, he humbles himself and shares himself.

And curiously enough, the memories he shares with Harry are precisely the memories he has been shielding from Voldemort. So in a very real sense he is not only giving Harry the gift of memories of Lily, he is pledging his loyalty to Harry. Harry receives what Snape has hidden from the man that Harry has to face.

I don't think there is any question of false memories here. The moment Harry rises from the floor in the Headmaster's office, he knows he has seen the truth. In fact, his first thought is: "Finally, the truth." And there is no reason to believe that Harry is wrong in this.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

This is not an accurate reading of what I wrote:

The point I'm making is not that Snape gets credit for the first fall of Voldemort. (I agree that the credit goes to Lily).

Oh right, sorry.

That Bellatrix et. al. turned an objective moral good into an opportunity for evil has nothing to do with Snape. The only connection is a past association - a past association that was not even particularly close.

But, if Snape and Bellatrix were never close associates, how can she know that he never did anything of benefit to the DEs?
I don't think Snape is to blame for what happened to the Longbottoms, but I find it disgusting that he participated in what the DEs were doing -in whatever capacity he was involved, he was a member of a group that tortured and murdered others. Whether or not he and Bellatrix ever worked closely together, he was a supporter of their evil deeds. I think he should have been ashamed that he ever supported such people -Neville's situation was a living reminder of what he had once been a part of -as was Harry's. While he couldn't show that guilt in his dealings with them, he could have ignored them beyond what was absolutely essential for class. Belittling Neville in front of another teacher, for example, was not warranted, at all.
He knew what the DEs did, when he was joining up; he was not under the delusion that he was joining a law-abiding political activist group. The entire wizarding community had been living in fear of the DEs since his school-days, everybody knew what they were. To want to associate with people like that at all is something that I do hold Snape responsible for, though I do not blame him for what happened to the Longbottoms. Snape considering his suffering more important than the hurt caused to the victims of his crime, (i.e. the Potter family) is something I also think is reprehensible.

And as I pointed out, I do not think it logical to make him guilty by past association - something that Dumbledore never does. IMO, we are guilty of our own actions, not those of past associates whose later actions we did not encourage.

This is something Snape himself doesn't take into account in his dealings with Harry, ironically enough. He was given an enormous second chance and could not give Harry a first chance.


[quote]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I think we've all covered and conceded that Severus had a major character flaw where Harry was concerned because he kept seeing James and the old animosities kept returning. He should have grown past this, but, he didn't -- wasn't able to. Sometimes emotional scars leave extremely deep impressions on people that they cannot control, not matter how hard they try. Severus interactions with the Marauders/James seemed to leave this kind of lasting emotional scar and he just couldn't seem to work through it.

That suggests to me that Snape's remorse is selective. He regrets his part in Lily's death, he doesn't care that he caused James' death, or caused Harry to be orphaned. Snape's criminal actions got a man murdered in cold blood by his former master, and he still thinks he's the injured party where that man is concerned? That is incredibly egocentric, IMO.

Severus was put into that position as a cover for his role as a double agent. He didn't have much choice in the matter. He wasn't even allowed to teach the subject that he really wanted to.

And again, I don't feel any sympathy for Snape not getting to teach his chosen subject - the alternative was probably a cell in Azkaban.

Originally Posted by leah49

No excuse for bullying the boy. All he has to do is ignore the boy and the part is played, but why Neville? Because his parents defied Voldemort and were tortured by Bellatrix? Doesn't make the boy important.

I agree, I can see no excuse whatsoever for his behaviour towards Neville. In particular, in PoA - his threat to poison Neville's toad, and his snide remarks about Neville in front of another teacher. That was spiteful and unnecessary, IMO.

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

IMO, the main reason Snape gave Harry all this information, is because Harry wasn't likely to go and sacrifice himself, because a man whom he believes loyal to Voldemort, told him so. It would've been really silly of Harry to walk to death without a strong proof, that Snape was on their side. Snape needed to give him a strong proof, so Harry would be certain that Snape was Dumledore's man and not Voldemort's. He needed to reveal to Harry the reason Dumbledore trusted him so much.

I think so, too. Harry needed a reason to believe what he was seeing. The one memory of Dumbledore telling Snape what must be done would not have been enough, IMO, Harry needed to see why Dumbledore trusted Snape, he needed a reason to trust Snape's memories himself.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

If he hadn't grown to at least respect, if not admire, Harry, it wouldn't have mattered to him that Harry had to die.

That would mean that Snape chooses who deserves to live based on how he feels about them, that if he doesn't care about someone, it's all right if they're murdered. That would go back to the Snape who only cared that Lily was in danger because of his crime, and not the Snape who said that he tried to save those he could. If Snape had truly come to believe that everyone had the right to live, respecting Harry wouldn't come into it.

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

I don't think there is any question of false memories here. The moment Harry rises from the floor in the Headmaster's office, he knows he has seen the truth. In fact, his first thought is: "Finally, the truth." And there is no reason to believe that Harry is wrong in this.

I believe that seeing all the memories and not just the information of what he had to do convinced Harry to believe it. He needed more than the memory of Dumbledore arranging for Snape to kill him, and speaking of what Harry must do. He needed a reason to believe what he was seeing. He needed to see the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape, and why Dumbledore hadn't been fooled.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by CCS

I don't think there is any question of false memories here. The moment Harry rises from the floor in the Headmaster's office, he knows he has seen the truth. In fact, his first thought is: "Finally, the truth." And there is no reason to believe that Harry is wrong in this.

I didn't say any of the memories Snape gave Harry were false, if that's what you thought. I just think, that if Snape hadn't given Harry the whole bunch, Harry could've assumed it was a false memory. That's why Snape thought it was better to show him everything from the begining.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I think so, too. Harry needed a reason to believe what he was seeing. The one memory of Dumbledore telling Snape what must be done would not have been enough, IMO, Harry needed to see why Dumbledore trusted Snape, he needed a reason to trust Snape's memories himself.

I completely agree.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

Yes, I also thinks it depends strorngly on how we interpret the text. Hoestly I don't see much difference between I still hate Harry Potter and the fact Snape states, that he hadn't grown to care for the boy, after all. 'Not caring for Harry' doesn't nessecarily mean he hates him, but it doesn't imply that he's fond of him, either.

My interpretation actually goes one step further than this. Not only do I read "I still hate Harry" in the words "For him?!" but I see this: Hell, no, I hate that kid! He's just like James, just like him! Strutting about the castle like he owns it and hexing Slytherins just because he can! I hate him!

I think his astonishment that Dumbledore has been raising Harry like a "sheep for slaughter" says more about Snape's view of Dumbledore. He's astonished that Albus could so callusly sacrifice a boy that Albus has come to care about. JMO.

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

I think Harry was beyond the point of trusting Snape, after he'd seen him kill Dumbledore. Snape knew he has to show Harry everything that was hidden from him before (that includes planning to kill Dumbledore, his love for Lily, so Harry would know they had the same person in heart) Snape showed Harry the memories with Lily, because he needed to make sure Lily didn't die invain. But because he cared for him? I'm not sure what this has got to do with Lily, .

As for the memories being tampered with, Harry knew Snape was a great Occlumence, and was probably able to give him an altogether false memory.

To me the memories seem very selective; the one on the Hogwarts Express, particularly, is not necessary to the purpose of having Harry trust Snape and understand the Plan to get rid of the accidental Horcrux in Harry's soul. It would seem that Snape still wanted Harry to believe that James and Sirius were worse than he was, because they started it.

If anyone else can see a different motive for including that little snippet in the memories that convinced Harry that Snape was good and pure and trustworthy and always on Dumbledore's side (because he was always on Lily's side, even while an active DE between SWM & the Prophecy?), please let me know. Because even in the Prince's Tale, I still see a spiteful and vindictive Snape, one who wants vengeance more than anything else. Not one who has come to value innocent life and do whatever he can to preserve it.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Lyra Lovegood

To me the memories seem very selective; the one on the Hogwarts Express, particularly, is not necessary to the purpose of having Harry trust Snape and understand the Plan to get rid of the accidental Horcrux in Harry's soul. It would seem that Snape still wanted Harry to believe that James and Sirius were worse than he was, because they started it.

You mean he wanted Harry to see the truth? I totally agree.

Those final memories are all completely true, and Harry cannot even bear to watch one of them again because it is so painful. That doesn't make Snape a false witness, and it doesn't mean that Snape is trying to do something unkind as his last act on earth. He just wants Harry to understand where things went wrong and learn from his mistakes. JMO.

Taken as a whole, Snape's memories convince Harry of two things: Snape's love for Lily and his trust in Dumbledore. No, make that three things - that Snape had trust in Harry too, and knew he would do the right thing.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

To me the memories seem very selective; the one on the Hogwarts Express, particularly, is not necessary to the purpose of having Harry trust Snape and understand the Plan to get rid of the accidental Horcrux in Harry's soul. It would seem that Snape still wanted Harry to believe that James and Sirius were worse than he was, because they started it.

If anyone else can see a different motive for including that little snippet in the memories that convinced Harry that Snape was good and pure and trustworthy and always on Dumbledore's side (because he was always on Lily's side, even while an active DE between SWM & the Prophecy?), please let me know. Because even in the Prince's Tale, I still see a spiteful and vindictive Snape, one who wants vengeance more than anything else. Not one who has come to value innocent life and do whatever he can to preserve it.

While I agree with the fact that the memories seemed very selective (if Snape had no choice in which memories he could pass to Harry, we probably would have had a chapter of Snape's entire memories), in my opinion, he didn't give Harry the one in the Hogwarts Express out of spite or resentment towards James and Sirius. I think he simply wanted to show Harry Lily's relationship with Petunia (why she was crying) and the fact that all of them, James, Sirius and themselves were being immature children before they started Hogwarts. Snape wasn't shown in a particularly positive light in the Hogwarts Express memory either, and I think he wants to show Harry that both he and James were at fault with each other, much like Harry and Malfoy.

However, this is all just my own opinion.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

To me the memories seem very selective; the one on the Hogwarts Express, particularly, is not necessary to the purpose of having Harry trust Snape and understand the Plan to get rid of the accidental Horcrux in Harry's soul. It would seem that Snape still wanted Harry to believe that James and Sirius were worse than he was, because they started it.

If anyone else can see a different motive for including that little snippet in the memories that convinced Harry that Snape was good and pure and trustworthy and always on Dumbledore's side (because he was always on Lily's side, even while an active DE between SWM & the Prophecy?), please let me know. Because even in the Prince's Tale, I still see a spiteful and vindictive Snape, one who wants vengeance more than anything else. Not one who has come to value innocent life and do whatever he can to preserve it.

Yes, I see a completely different motive. It's not just a memory of James and Sirius. It's a memory of Lily. It shows Harry his mother. And it also shows Harry where things started to go all wrong for the principles of the previous generation. The scene on the train, I think, is very sad. It shows off everybody's flaws... except for Lily's. She comes out of it looking good. Snape cannot give Harry good memories of his father, because he has none to give. He can only give Harry good memories of his mother. So in that sense, I think it's quite a beautiful memory to give to Harry because it paints a lovely picture of Lily.

I don't understand the question about Snape as "good and pure and trustworthy and always on Dumbledore's side... even while an active DE." Snape was objectively not on Dumbledore's side when he was an active DE (chronology is not certain, but it's doubtful that SWM is the starting date of his active involvement in the DEs since he was only 16 at the time of SWM and had no desirable family status, as Regulus did).

As for always "good and pure," I don't see anybody making that claim. I do think he was gradually purified, particularly in his final year, and that his death was what in theological terms would be called a baptism of blood. Trustworthy with his charge? I think that's clearly canonical. Came to value innocent life and seek to protect it? Also, I think, clearly canonical.

As for vengeance as a motivating factor, I see no evidence of that anywhere in TPT. Snape never mentions it as a motive. Dumbledore does not "sell" the mission to Snape as "vengeance." In fact, there's no mention of vengeance anywhere. Instead, the motive discussed is "protection." Snape himself says that "everything" was to protect Lily Potter's son.

As for Harry coming to believe in the absolute goodness and purity of Severus Snape... I think it's clear that Harry did change his opinion about Snape. It's clear that Harry came to believe that Snape was trustworthy. It's clear that Harry came to believe that Snape was the bravest man he ever knew. Whether or not he also believed him to be absolute purity and goodness and always on Dumbledore's side even as an active DE... well, I'll leave that for Harry to answer.

My take is that Harry made a decision to honor Snape despite his flaws... just as he made a decision to honor his father despite his flaws. And does canon show that Harry did make a decision to honor Severus Snape? Well, I think the answer is obvious. He brought the name "Severus" into his family in honor of the Headmaster who bore it - something I don't think he would have done for a man he perceived to be nothing more than a vindictive, avenging angel.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Yes, I see a completely different motive. It's not just a memory of James and Sirius. It's a memory of Lily. It shows Harry his mother. And it also shows Harry where things started to go all wrong for the principles of the previous generation. The scene on the train, I think, is very sad. It shows off everybody's flaws... except for Lily's. She comes out of it looking good. Snape cannot give Harry good memories of his father, because he has none to give. He can only give Harry good memories of his mother. So in that sense, I think it's quite a beautiful memory to give to Harry because it paints a lovely picture of Lily.

Very well put.

In my opinion, Snape wants Harry to see his mother as the kind, thoughtful person Snape viewed her as; he wants the boy to know his mother for who she truly was and Snape was one of the only people who could give Harry that wonderful gift. I think this also shows how much his feelings for Harry changed- he cared enough about him in general to show him who his mother truly was.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

In my opinion, Snape wants Harry to see his mother as the kind, thoughtful person Snape viewed her as; he wants the boy to know his mother for who she truly was and Snape was one of the only people who could give Harry that wonderful gift.

I agree, and would like to add also that Snape gives Harry memories wherein he himself is condoning the use of what is apparently Dark Magic on a girl and another where he begs Lily to forgive him, only to have her tell him that she is no different from the people he calls "Mudblood." He is showing Harry memories that do not present himself in a good light, but which do show that Lily had the right idea. I don't believe those memories further Harry's trust in Snape, not when the teenage Snape is defending the forces that ruined Harry's life (Snape would have to know this intimately, the deaths of the Potters being a great regret in his life). What they do is show Lily in a positive light, which may in part be there to show Harry a moral contrast between the two in these specific memories, with his mother coming out on top and Snape, the man who must gain Harry's trust, on the bottom.

Originally Posted by ccollinssmith

Whether or not he also believed him to be absolute purity and goodness and always on Dumbledore's side even as an active DE, I'll leave that for Harry to answer.

Originally Posted by DH, emphasis mine

“Severus Snape wasn’t yours,” said Harry. “Snape was Dumbledore’s, Dumbledore’s from the moment you started hunting down my mother. And you never realized it, because of the thing you can’t understand.

Originally Posted by ccollinssmith

My take is that Harry made a decision to honor Snape despite his flaws... just as he made a decision to honor his father despite his flaws. And did Harry make a decision to honor Severus Snape? Well, I think the answer is obvious. He brought the name "Severus" into his family in honor of the Headmaster who bore it - something I don't think he would have done for a man he perceived to be nothing more than a vindictive, avenging angel.

I agree. Vengeance is a motive drawn from hatred toward someone who has wronged the avenging party. For someone who was motivated only by hate to be honored at the end of a series about love by the enlightened hero who has gone through his final moral test (self-sacrifice and rebirth) and has reached the end of his quest to return with new wisdom simply does not make sense, IMO. In this case, I think we are lucky that a motive that does work with the theme of love is presented for the reader to consider. It gives the end of DH a great deal of clarity and helps give us a deeper understanding of who Snape was and who Harry has become.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

That suggests to me that Snape's remorse is selective. He regrets his part in Lily's death, he doesn't care that he caused James' death, or caused Harry to be orphaned. Snape's criminal actions got a man murdered in cold blood by his former master, and he still thinks he's the injured party where that man is concerned? That is incredibly egocentric, IMO.

I don't think carrying information overheard while eavesdropping could be considered "criminal." Uncooth, distasteful, unethical, yes, but, not criminal. The information given to Voldemort was only that, informtion. It was Voldemort who "interpreted" the Prophecy and actually killed Lily and James. That it was based on the information given by Severus makes him involved, but not directly responsible.

Severus was the injured party when it came to the actions of James and the Marauders. The emotional scars left by their harassment and debasement of him in front of his classmates remained with him into adulthood and deeply affected his relationship with Harry. Yes, he should have gotten over it, but, as I said previously, some scars are too deep to heal. Dumbledore understood this.

At the time we see Severus meeting on the hilltop with Dumbledore his first and foremost thought was for Lily's safety. This is a pretty normal reaction when a loved one, among others, is in danger. He did not think of James or Harry until Dumbledore shamed him into it. But, when he did, Severus asked for protection for all of them.

And again, I don't feel any sympathy for Snape not getting to teach his chosen subject - the alternative was probably a cell in Azkaban.

This was not stated to garner sympathy but was part of a discussion as to why Severus seemed to be so nasty and short tempered with some of his students. We know why he was that way with Harry. We were discussing some reasons he was that way with some other students, including Hermoine and Neville.

That would mean that Snape chooses who deserves to live based on how he feels about them, that if he doesn't care about someone, it's all right if they're murdered. That would go back to the Snape who only cared that Lily was in danger because of his crime, and not the Snape who said that he tried to save those he could. If Snape had truly come to believe that everyone had the right to live, respecting Harry wouldn't come into it.

No. It would mean that the death of someone he cared for would be felt more deeply than someone he didn't know or someone he hated. Losing someone close nearly always affects people more than the death of someone they don't care about. I don't see this as "choosing who deserves to live based on how he feels about them." I only see it as being human.

[alexsaxon]

I don't think carrying information overheard while eavesdropping could be considered "criminal." Uncooth, distasteful, unethical, yes, but, not criminal. The information given to Voldemort was only that, informtion. It was Voldemort who "interpreted" the Prophecy and actually killed Lily and James. That it was based on the information given by Severus makes him involved, but not directly responsible.

Severus was the injured party when it came to the actions of James and the Marauders. The emotional scars left by their harassment and debasement of him in front of his classmates remained with him into adulthood and deeply affected his relationship with Harry. Yes, he should have gotten over it, but, as I said previously, some scars are too deep to heal. Dumbledore understood this.

At the time we see Severus meeting on the hilltop with Dumbledore his first and foremost thought was for Lily's safety. This is a pretty normal reaction when a loved one, among others, is in danger. He did not think of James or Harry until Dumbledore shamed him into it. But, when he did, Severus asked for protection for all of them.

I would tend to agree with this. Dumbledore said that Snape had no way of knowing where the information would lead to and once Snape heard what the information lead to he was quite obviously distraught. Of course the flip side is is that if it was someone else who was killed Snape would have continued on as a Death Eater not caring who it was. hmmm

In the end that last point is probably the best one. He might have still felt guilty about giving Voldemort the message whoever it was meant for, but our reactions sometimes do depend on who is involved, and in Snape's case this might have been true.

I think its interesting to look at why he became a death eater in the first place (although I am sure this has already been discussed at length). I dont think he had any real devotion to the cause at all, but was driven to that side out of pure desperation (although I may be stating the obvious here). Lily had shunned him for James Potter, and he must have wanted to get as far in the opposite direction as he could from them.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by Minervascat

I don't think carrying information overheard while eavesdropping could be considered "criminal." Uncooth, distasteful, unethical, yes, but, not criminal. The information given to Voldemort was only that, informtion. It was Voldemort who "interpreted" the Prophecy and actually killed Lily and James. That it was based on the information given by Severus makes him involved, but not directly responsible.

I'm not sure how it isn't criminal, when Voldemort was surely going to murder someone (at least one child) based on the information, .

Severus was the injured party when it came to the actions of James and the Marauders. The emotional scars left by their harassment and debasement of him in front of his classmates remained with him into adulthood and deeply affected his relationship with Harry. Yes, he should have gotten over it, but, as I said previously, some scars are too deep to heal. Dumbledore understood this.

Snape is definitely the injured party when you think of what the marauders did to him. But when I compare it to his actions involving James' death , and that of his wife, I don't think Snape should think himself the injured party anymore. After causing the death of someone, it's only fair to forget if they ever wronged you in their life. That's just my opinion.

ETA: Harry forgives every horrible deed Snape did to him, once he learns that Snape died trying to convey some information to him, (and that includes the fact that Snape was the reason his parents were murdured) Harry immediately forgives all of this.

[alexsaxon]

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

I'm not sure how it isn't criminal, when Voldemort was surely going to murder someone (at least one child) based on the information, .

fair point

Snape is definitely the injured party when you think of what the marauders did to him. But when I compare it to his actions involving James' death , and that of his wife, I don't think Snape should think himself the injured party anymore. After causing the death of someone, it's only fair to forget if they ever wronged you in their life. That's just my opinion.

ETA: Harry forgives every horrible deed Snape did to him, once he learns that Snape died trying to convey some information to him, (and that includes the fact that Snape was the reason his parents were murdured) Harry immediately forgives all of this.

Snape and Harry are two very different personalities though. I think Harry in general is a very forgiving person. Snape....not so much. Snape does spend the rest of his life trying to make up for what he did, maybe that itself is his own form of forgivness perhaps. He forgave the Marauders through trying to help James's son. He must have felt very conflicted when seeing James through Harry

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

My interpretation actually goes one step further than this. Not only do I read "I still hate Harry" in the words "For him?!" but I see this: Hell, no, I hate that kid! He's just like James, just like him! Strutting about the castle like he owns it and hexing Slytherins just because he can! I hate him!

True ... but it did occur to me, on my first reading, that Snape was possibly protesting too much. Just my own personal interpretation.

To me the memories seem very selective; the one on the Hogwarts Express, particularly, is not necessary to the purpose of having Harry trust Snape and understand the Plan to get rid of the accidental Horcrux in Harry's soul. It would seem that Snape still wanted Harry to believe that James and Sirius were worse than he was, because they started it.

I don't agree that the memories are deliberately selective or that Snape wanted to portray James and Sirius in the worst possible light ... not now he is dying, at any rate! The memories are what they are, and they offer to Harry no excuses or rationalisations for the way Snape has behaved. Snape just gives them, as they are.

After all, the man is dying. He is in agony from a horribly painful snake bite and bleeding to death before Harry's eyes. How much time does he have, to select these memories, let alone edit and censor them? I would suggest: hardly any time at all. So he makes sure he gives Harry the memories Harry needs in order to understand the truth, the big picture.

If anyone else can see a different motive for including that little snippet in the memories that convinced Harry that Snape was good and pure and trustworthy and always on Dumbledore's side (because he was always on Lily's side, even while an active DE between SWM & the Prophecy?), please let me know. Because even in the Prince's Tale, I still see a spiteful and vindictive Snape, one who wants vengeance more than anything else. Not one who has come to value innocent life and do whatever he can to preserve it.

Well, I did. When he is angry with Dumbledore for not letting Snape help him over his mortally wounded hand. When Dumbledore asks him how many people he has watched die and he says, curtly, "Only those I could not save" (and I personally interpret that to mean a reference to poor Charity Burbage). When he is horrified that Dumbledore has (apparently) raised a boy to the slaughter. When he rebukes Phineas Nigellus for calling Hermione 'Mudblood'. When he devises his own plan to get the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry.

I saw in The Prince's Tale a bitter and thwarted man who still had considerable issues ... but a man who had very clearly turned his life around, despite the terrible things he had done in the past.

And JKR, in my opinion, clearly intended Harry to see the same things as I did, otherwise he would never have named his son after this man, or called him 'probably the bravest man I ever knew'. JMO.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

Very well put.

In my opinion, Snape wants Harry to see his mother as the kind, thoughtful person Snape viewed her as; he wants the boy to know his mother for who she truly was and Snape was one of the only people who could give Harry that wonderful gift. I think this also shows how much his feelings for Harry changed- he cared enough about him in general to show him who his mother truly was.

Harry already has a positive opinion of his parents. If Snape wanted to show Harry a memory to show Lily in a positive light, he could have given one that didn't include James at all.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I don't think carrying information overheard while eavesdropping could be considered "criminal." Uncooth, distasteful, unethical, yes, but, not criminal. The information given to Voldemort was only that, informtion. It was Voldemort who "interpreted" the Prophecy and actually killed Lily and James. That it was based on the information given by Severus makes him involved, but not directly responsible.

I don't consider eavesdropping a crime either. However, Snape wasn't just eavesdropping. He was a member of a criminal gang, he was spying for that criminal gang, and he brought information obtained while spying for a genocidal madman to that genocidal madman. That is something I do consider criminal. Voldemort figured out who the possible candidates for the prophecy were, but Snape knew that the prophecy would mean the death of at least one child. That gives him a huge part of the responsibility, IMO. I see Snape and the prophecy as being like someone who builds a bomb, not caring where it will be set off, until he finds out it's to be set off in his loved ones' locality. Carrying the prophecy to a known criminal was a crime, IMO. I can't see it as anything other than a disgusting crime.

Severus was the injured party when it came to the actions of James and the Marauders. The emotional scars left by their harassment and debasement of him in front of his classmates remained with him into adulthood and deeply affected his relationship with Harry. Yes, he should have gotten over it, but, as I said previously, some scars are too deep to heal. Dumbledore understood this.

Yes, he was the injured party at school. But the Potter family were the injured party because of Snape's actions as part of a criminal gang. He bears a part of the responsibility for two cold-blooded murders, and he still thinks he's the only victim? He thinks that school bullying is worse than aiding and abetting a murder?? He thinks that his emotional scars are more important than the ones he helped to cause to Harry, that his experience of being bullied is more important than Harry's experience of growing up without his parents? (In part because of Snape himself). I consider it extremely self-centred. Dumbledore knew this, knew the reasons for it, but he did not condone it.

This was not stated to garner sympathy but was part of a discussion as to why Severus seemed to be so nasty and short tempered with some of his students. We know why he was that way with Harry. We were discussing some reasons he was that way with some other students, including Hermoine and Neville.

It was highly ungrateful of Snape to be cruel to students, just because he was unhappy in the job. He could have been in Azkaban, instead of a job that's well respected in the wizarding world.

No. It would mean that the death of someone he cared for would be felt more deeply than someone he didn't know or someone he hated. Losing someone close nearly always affects people more than the death of someone they don't care about. I don't see this as "choosing who deserves to live based on how he feels about them." I only see it as being human.

If caring whether Harry lived or died was a sign of respect, I interpret that to mean that if Snape didn't respect someone, their death wouldn't matter to him. Caring whether Harry lived or died was not a sign of respect, IMO. Anyone with a conscience would hate the idea of any teenage boy (any innocent human being, for that matter) being required to die, with no chance to fight. Whether they respected the person or not would be irrelevant.

Originally Posted by alexsaxon

I would tend to agree with this. Dumbledore said that Snape had no way of knowing where the information would lead to and once Snape heard what the information lead to he was quite obviously distraught. Of course the flip side is is that if it was someone else who was killed Snape would have continued on as a Death Eater not caring who it was. hmmm

Snape had no way of knowing who Voldemort would choose, as the child hadn't been born yet. He was intelligent enough to know that Voldemort would murder the child in question, though. I agree that Snape would have continued as a DE if Lily hadn't been in danger.

In the end that last point is probably the best one. He might have still felt guilty about giving Voldemort the message whoever it was meant for, but our reactions sometimes do depend on who is involved, and in Snape's case this might have been true.

I don't think he would have felt guilty, as he didn't care until Lily was threatened. Yes, people generally care more if a loved one is involved, but deliberately putting a stranger in mortal peril is just as wrong as putting a loved one in peril.

I think its interesting to look at why he became a death eater in the first place (although I am sure this has already been discussed at length). I dont think he had any real devotion to the cause at all, but was driven to that side out of pure desperation (although I may be stating the obvious here). Lily had shunned him for James Potter, and he must have wanted to get as far in the opposite direction as he could from them

Snape was hanging out with wannabe DEs while he was still friends with Lily. That was a betrayal of their friendship, IMO. He threw the racist slur associated with the DEs and their twisted values at her. He was going down that track while still friends with Lily, and it was why she ended the friendship. Lily also ended the friendship over a year before she got together with James Potter, so I don't see how shunning Snape for James comes into it.

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

I'm not sure how it isn't criminal, when Voldemort was surely going to murder someone (at least one child) based on the information, .

I agree, I think it was nothing short of a crime. Deliberately aiding and abetting Voldemort in any way whatsoever was a crime, IMO. Aiding and abetting Voldemort knowing murder would be the outcome was a very serious crime, IMO.

QUOTE] Snape is definitely the injured party when you think of what the marauders did to him. But when I compare it to his actions involving James' death , and that of his wife, I don't think Snape should think himself the injured party anymore. After causing the death of someone, it's only fair to forget if they ever wronged you in their life. That's just my opinion. [/quote]

Exactly. Bullying is a wrong against someone, getting someone murdered is an immense wrong against them.

ETA: Harry forgives every horrible deed Snape did to him, once he learns that Snape died trying to convey some information to him, (and that includes the fact that Snape was the reason his parents were murdured) Harry immediately forgives all of this.

IMO, this says a lot more about Harry than it does about Snape. It shows that Harry is by far the bigger man, more mature and understanding, and has far more empathy.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by alexsaxon

Lily had shunned him for James Potter, and he must have wanted to get as far in the opposite direction as he could from them

I don't think Lily's relationship with James had anything to do with Snape becoming a DE. As pointed out already, Snape was friends with some children whose greatest desire was to join Voldemort. She made her opnion on those friends clear more than once. He chose not to listen to her, and she was free to leave him. He contiued down his way, she continued in hers. Snape eventually became a DE, Lily eventually got with James (because he wasn't arrogant anymore) and married him. IMO, Lily's relationship with James has nothing to do with Snape..

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Yes, he was the injured party at school.

I'm going out on a limb here and disagreeing. I thought that TPT was partly to show how mutual the dislike and actions were, and it was not a case of Snape being the innocent party. In SWM, Lily had said "you're as bad as he is", and I thought that TPT was explaining just what she meant. I think Snape showed with his memories that he too was being a bully at school, targeting "Mudbloods", and also targeting James and his friends out of jealousy over Lily. I feel all this talk of James being the only culprit and Snape the injured party at school is putting the cart before the horse. I felt that Snape was finally confessing-- even to himself-- that he shared responsibility for what went on, too.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Yes, he was the injured party at school. But the Potter family were the injured party because of Snape's actions as part of a criminal gang. He bears a part of the responsibility for two cold-blooded murders, and he still thinks he's the only victim? He thinks that school bullying is worse than aiding and abetting a murder?? He thinks that his emotional scars are more important than the ones he helped to cause to Harry, that his experience of being bullied is more important than Harry's experience of growing up without his parents? (In part because of Snape himself). I consider it extremely self-centred. Dumbledore knew this, knew the reasons for it, but he did not condone it.

Snape fan though I be -- and I am firmly of the opinion that he was a victim of bullying -- I agree completely with this.

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I felt that Snape was finally confessing-- even to himself-- that he shared responsibility for what went on, too.

Actually, that's pretty much how I read it too ...

Of one thing I am 100% sure ( ) ... I do not think that the memories Snape gave Harry were, in any way, selected or edited in order to paint Harry's father -- or Lily -- in a bad light, or the worst possible light.

I actually think better of Snape than that.

The memories are what they are: the plain, unvarnished truth, especially as they don't always paint Snape himself in a very flattering light.

The man was dying. He was, IMO, finally making his peace with the boy he had so long hated.

[alexsaxon]

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

I don't think Lily's relationship with James had anything to do with Snape becoming a DE. As pointed out already, Snape was friends with some children whose greatest desire was to join Voldemort. She made her opnion on those friends clear more than once. He chose not to listen to her, and she was free to leave him. He contiued down his way, she continued in hers. Snape eventually became a DE, Lily eventually got with James (because he wasn't arrogant anymore) and married him. IMO, Lily's relationship with James has nothing to do with Snape..

yup good point. I realise I was wrong. Your right Snape had been hanging out with these people and I forgot to account for that. Maybe the fact that Lily being with the person Snape detested the most might have had a profound effect on his choices. But the evidence does point to the contrary you are quite correct.

[NumberEight]

I look at Snape's school-friends situation much like those who are in poverty and have broken families and turn to gangstas for love. Choosing such people as friends is still a terrible decision, but the situation is similar.