Severus Snape: Character Analysis Volume 2

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

I have no problem calling Snape out on his initial selfishness, general rudeness, and/or pettiness in dealing with Harry&co. I do, however, have a problem calling him "a loathsome example of a human being".

I don't find confronting one's sins and striving towards redemption loathsome. Quite the contrary, in fact.

This.

I think this thread could do with a topic change, since I think we've discussed the current topic several times, and usually with bad results. Let's talk about Snape and Dumbledore in GoF.

• How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?
• Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?
• Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?

[ccollinsmith]

I have no problem calling Snape out on his initial selfishness, general rudeness, and/or pettiness in dealing with Harry&co. I do, however, have a problem calling him "a loathsome example of a human being".

I don't find confronting one's sins and striving towards redemption loathsome. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Exactly. I have absolutely no problem with assigning Snape blame for his decision to join the Death Eaters. None. Zip. Nada. But I also don't see why the DE connection needs to be belabored when it's clear from the text that he turned his back on the Death Eaters and actively worked against them for the rest of his life.

Snape joined the Death Eaters probably around 1977. It was an immoral decision. Snape stopped being a Death Eater in 1980 or early 1981. It's not who he was during the 1991-1998 time period that we see in the text.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

I do believe Dumbledore received ample royalties for "his good decisions"... or did I miss a post disputing/belittling the part he played in steering Snape?

'Understanding' and 'excusing' are two different concepts in English language. Let's not oversimplify it.



I don't see anyone disproving that fact. The point is, he accepted another later in his life - which accounts for my unwillingness to allow the 'evil' label attached to this character.

What would I use for Bellatrix, Voldemort and Umbridge, otherwise?

I have no problem calling Snape out on his initial selfishness, general rudeness, and/or pettiness in dealing with Harry&co. I do, however, have a problem calling him "a loathsome example of a human being".

I don't find confronting one's sins and striving towards redemption loathsome. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Yes, I completely agree with this.

Originally Posted by ignisia

This.

I think this thread could do with a topic change, since I think we've discussed the current topic several times, and usually with bad results. Let's talk about Snape and Dumbledore in GoF.

• How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?
• Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?
• Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?

And, this, too. So, let's move on:

• How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?

• With the same total surprise as Dumbledore and the rest. With all of the spells and enchantments that Dumbledore had put on the Goblet, they both had to know that something was up for Harry's name to have been put in it.
  
  

  Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?

  I would say they definitely discussed it between them. Severus may have even shown Dumbledore how his Dark Mark was becoming burning and becoming more pronounced. That had to be alarming to both of them, as it meant Voldemort's strength was growing.
  
  

  Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?

[/quote]
They may have suspected it, but, there wasn't much to go on. The last they'd seen of Voldemort was two years before when the diary/horcrux was destroyed. He had still been very weak at that time. But, they also knew that Wormtail had escaped and might have suspected that he would seek Voldemort out and try to help him "regenerate."

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

With the same total surprise as Dumbledore and the rest. With all of the spells and enchantments that Dumbledore had put on the Goblet, they both had to know that something was up for Harry's name to have been put in it.

Yes, the same level of surprise, but either because he actually believed it OR because he was playing his part well for Igor Karkaroff, he made mention of Harry's breaking the rules.

Also, believe that Dumbledore/Snape discussed how best to proceed and keep Harry safe, especially with Harry's penchant to wander the castle and get around protections set in place mostly for him.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I would say they definitely discussed it between them. Severus may have even shown Dumbledore how his Dark Mark was becoming burning and becoming more pronounced. That had to be alarming to both of them, as it meant Voldemort's strength was growing.

Oh, yes, he definitely showed it to Dumbledore. Wasn't he also patrolling hallways at night? Or am I confusing that instance with the time his office was ransacked by imposter Moody? He must have been really freaked when Moody mentioned 'spots not rubbing off' and then felt that jolt of pain from the Dark Mark.

He also really risked himself there at the end, in support of Dumbledore and the recently returned to Hogwarts Harry, by showing his Dark Mark to Fudge and backing those two up.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

They may have suspected it, but, there wasn't much to go on. The last they'd seen of Voldemort was two years before when the diary/horcrux was destroyed. He had still been very weak at that time. But, they also knew that Wormtail had escaped and might have suspected that he would seek Voldemort out and try to help him "regenerate."

I think the two suspected the return of the Dark Mark was an ill omen, meaning the Dark Lord was stirring. Well, that and the Dark Mark at the World Cup. Not sure if Dumbledore would have specifically confided in Snape about it in regards to Harry's name coming out of the goblet, after all, Dumbledore rarely told everyone everything.

Dumbledore would have suspected something for sure, those suspicions would have increased upon hearing Harry's tale of Voldemort, Wormtail, Nagini, and the dead Muggle in that old house. He certainly had deep suspicions which is why he was dropping his thoughts in the Pensieve, trying to find the common thread.

[TeamEdwardGirl]

Snape, Snape, Severus Snape ()
Where to start...

He's such a complex character. He was brave, he was loyal, he was selfless, and he loved deeply. Yet, he was angry, he was bitter, he'd made awful choices, and he was vindictive.

He is the biggest example of the stories theme of your choices being the bigger factor in who you are rather than your abilites.

I always feel sorry for him when it comes to Lily. I mean, I'm glad she was with James, but it was sad, because he really loved her. She meant a lot to him and she ended up dying by the Death Eaters and Voldemort, whom he so admired.

All in all, Snape is a tragic hero.

[FutureAuthor13]

[QUOTEHow do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out from the Goblet of Fire?
][/quote]

With absolute shock- I think he thought hardly anything could trick Dumbledore, I'm sure he was quite shaken when Harry's name appeared.

In my opinion, Snape never suspected Harry; I imagine his thoughts to be somewhat like, "A mere student could never trick such a powerfully magical object..." I think that when he mentions Harry's tendancy to break the rules in front of Karkaroff, he is doing so out of habit- not because he believes that Harry is guilty of putting his name in the Goblet of Fire. Dumbledore says, "Thank you, Severus" because he does not have time for Snape's grudges about Harry in such a perilous situation- Snape realises- and so, is silent.

Just my opinion, of course.

Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?

Yes, without a shadow of a doubt, in my opinion. Although there is evidence to suggest that Snape's feelings for Harry changed during HBP/DH time, I think Snape wouldn't want any underage student to compete in such a life threatening competition.

[QUOTEDo you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?
][/quote]

Ooh...hard for me to decide. Perhaps, or perhaps not. As other people mentioned, even if they did have the tiniest inkling, there wasn't hardly a grain of evidence to support the case at that time.

To add, I think when Snape's Dark Mark started to reappear, it was the time when he was most unnerved in his life- apart from the Occlumency lessons, when Harry asks what's in the DOM- which, I think, tops it.

Just my opinion.

[Chrysalis]

It might help with these discussions if we read what people are actually saying, rather than what we think they're saying...just a thought.

I don't think anybody here is trying to excuse Snape's actions, just trying to understand why he did what he did.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by ignisia

How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?

I think his first reaction wouldn't have been worry or something of the sort. I think the first thing he did was try to explain how Harry could've possibly managed to get around Dumbledore's defences. The incident of Harry sneaking out of school the previous year plus helping Sirius escape must have still been vivid in his head. I think Snape easily put this under the same category: Harry seeking attention, endangering his life, thinking he knows better than adults.

Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?

Contrary to what happens in the movie, I don't think Dumbledore would've discussed the matter with Snape (or anyone save Moody) at first. Apart from his resentment of Snape making them look bad in front of their guests, I think Dumbledore would've rather heard Moody's take on the matter. It's probable, though, he asked him to keep a close(r) eye on Harry.

Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?

I think this is very possible. There was also Harry's scar that started hurting him and the dreams he had.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

It might help with these discussions if we read what people are actually saying, rather than what we think they're saying...just a thought.

It might also help if people stopped accusing others of not reading other people's posts properly.

The discussion has moved on - let's leave it that way.

[ignisia]

• How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?

Initially, with shock and fear, I think. Regardless of how Harry's name got in there, he is now entered in a tournament with a long and dangerous history.

I don't doubt he'd have entertained the possibility of Harry fooling the Goblet, but I do doubt he'd have believed it for long. He's seen Harry get away with things from under his nose, but never Dumbledore's.

Plus, suspecting Harry of fooling DD would probably be giving him quite a lot more credit than Sev would be willing to admit.

• Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?

Undoubtedly, IMO. I think that even if DD did not see the necessity (and I don't think this would be the case), Snape would have insisted on knowing what DD thought and how closely they would keep an eye on Harry and anything suspicious.

• Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?

I think both had the suspicion, although they worked off different amount of evidence. Snape had Harry's surprise entry in the tournament, his own Mark (later, Karkaroff's too), the recent DE activity at the QWC to go by, and, well, any other weird stuff that just happened to occur at Hogwarts from the moment Harry set foot in there. DD had all that, plus the additional knowledge of Horcruxes, contacts from the Order informing him of vital developments, and the Muggle news of Frank Bryce's recent death.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster

We can see that Snape actualy added things to his books. He made his own spells and improved the recipes. Then, probably, he doesn't valuate highly the way Hermione is learning. He doesn't want his students parroting the books. Still, he gives her top marks, because she's good. But he expects more - and it works, because Hermione, in the last books, does more than repeating the information she gets from the library.

Though not catching up fully on this thread, I'd like to add some things to this. To me, Snape isn't sure Hermione understands fully why things are the way they are, as she doesn't give any answer except for what is written. You and I know as readers that she has gone through the steps of understanding, and she does get it, but to Professor Snape she is just 'parroting' as he has no real understanding of how she goes through her studies.

We're both saying the same thing, I'm sure, but I think it needs to be said that as Severus grew up, his relationships with people being considered, and the scientific mind he has (to me), he always felt that proof needed to be given, to be understood and respected. I never think he is fully annoyed with her... I think he is saying, "And because of that, what? You understand that, because? What makes your answer correct, Hermione, because you damn well better be right helping a boy, it seems to me, caring more for being brave (=James) than having reasons to actually be brave (=Lily)".

His exasperation is evident, but understandably so from where I sit. I'm not saying he has a soft spot for her and is cuddling (in his own way), but that he is saying 'The world needs more than that, Granger. Come on. Take it seriously. We've got a war going on and he needs your help... he hasn't shown that he has it.'

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge

Though not catching up fully on this thread, I'd like to add some things to this. To me, Snape isn't sure Hermione understands fully why things are the way they are, as she doesn't give any answer except for what is written. You and I know as readers that she has gone through the steps of understanding, and she does get it, but to Professor Snape she is just 'parroting' as he has no real understanding of how she goes through her studies.

We're both saying the same thing, I'm sure, but I think it needs to be said that as Severus grew up, his relationships with people being considered, and the scientific mind he has (to me), he always felt that proof needed to be given, to be understood and respected. I never think he is fully annoyed with her... I think he is saying, "And because of that, what? You understand that, because? What makes your answer correct, Hermione, because you damn well better be right helping a boy, it seems to me, caring more for being brave (=James) than having reasons to actually be brave (=Lily)".

His exasperation is evident, but understandably so from where I sit. I'm not saying he has a soft spot for her and is cuddling (in his own way), but that he is saying 'The world needs more than that, Granger. Come on. Take it seriously. We've got a war going on and he needs your help... he hasn't shown that he has it.'

Great post, agree with everything said, here.

I wonder if Snape ever ferlt guilty for making Hermione's eyes fill with tears when he calls her an "insufferable know it all,"- to me, I'm sure he never wanted to go as far as making her cry; embarrass her/humiliate her, yes but never to make her cry. (I'm not excusing his behaviour in this incident, though. )

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[padfootmarauder]

How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?
As was said before, pure shock. But i'm sure he understood there was something bigger going on since this was just after the attacks at the World Cup. But mostly i imagine he was just looking at Dumbledore to see if he had figured it out. As in the shock and the gravity of the situation hit him immediately and he got over quick enough to start wondering what it meant and who was responsible.
Basically, i dont think he suspected Harry of putting his own name in. All this JMO.

Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?
Definitely. I'm not sure whether Dumbledore told Snape about Harry's dream involving Wormtail and Crouch Jr at that point though.

Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?

Like i said before the World cup had just gotten over with a massive dark mark in the sky so they would all have been on their guard anyway. I'm sure they suspected it because they knew Harry could not enter because of DUmbledore's magic age line.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

Great post, agree with everything said, here.

I wonder if Snape ever ferlt guilty for making Hermione's eyes fill with tears when he calls her an "insufferable know it all,"- to me, I'm sure he never wanted to go as far as making her cry; embarrass her/humiliate her, yes but never to make her cry. (I'm not excusing his behaviour in this incident, though. )

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

I really doubt that he gave it another thought. Granger's hurt feelings probably didn't even register with him IMO. I do like the theory that he meant he saw no difference in Crabengoyle's* and Hermione's injuries from the hexes!!

*Sorry, I don't remember which one it was!

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

Great post, agree with everything said, here.

I wonder if Snape ever ferlt guilty for making Hermione's eyes fill with tears when he calls her an "insufferable know it all,"- to me, I'm sure he never wanted to go as far as making her cry; embarrass her/humiliate her, yes but never to make her cry. (I'm not excusing his behaviour in this incident, though. )

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

I respectfully disagree. If Snape felt guilty about making Hermione's eyes fill with tears, or if he cared much about what she felt at all, I'm sure he wouldn't have thrown at her the hurtful comment in GoF (I see no difference). She was embarassed about naturally having 'large front teeth' to the point that she asked her parents to do something about them (I dare say cosmetic surgeries and such, weren't popular back in the 90s) not to mention more embarassed from what Malfoy did to her. Snape doesn't send her to the hospital wing as he subtly sends Crabbe (or Goyle), and he doesn't hesitate to throw that sharp comment at her in front of her classmates. It's not difficult (for him) to imagine that this comment would make her feel humilated and embarassed. That's just my opinion.

[Kat_Suki]

I think it clear how the students took the comment, but since this is Snape's thread, I think there is the question of whether his comment of "I see no difference" was truly what Snape intended to be understood by his comment OR whether he was simply maintaining his cover status, catering to Malfoy and belittling the Boy Who Lived, his friends, and basically everyone but Dumbledore {Headmaster}, Minerva {Deputy Headmistress}, and the Slytherins.

As for the insufferable know-it-all, Hermione of course took as a jab, as did the other students. But was it? Or was it a not so subtle nudge to her saying, hey if you're so smart then surely you can figure out the clues I'm practically handing you and tell someone {Harry} about it - as we faculty cannot spill the beans. Hermione does later reveal that she'd been covering for Lupin 'all year', protecting his secret.

I think there are a lot of different angles to view Snape's behavior from, as evidence by this thread and its multiple incarnations.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

She was embarassed about naturally having 'large front teeth' to the point that she asked her parents to do something about them (I dare say cosmetic surgeries and such, weren't popular back in the 90s) not to mention more embarassed from what Malfoy did to her. Snape doesn't send her to the hospital wing as he subtly sends Crabbe (or Goyle)

I'm sure Snape knew that Hermione was smart enough to know to go to the Hospital Wing for her tooth problem without having to be told. Goyle, not so much.

As far as the "cosmetic surgery" part of the equation: Hermione has Madam Pomfrey shrink her teeth smaller than before so it all has a happy ending.

Not only that, but Hermione's own parents (the dentists) had told her she needed Muggle braces, which she admits herself. (That was a type of cosmetic fixing readily available back then to those other than wizards).

Harry himself had noticed that Hermione's teeth were rather large back in Book One.

However, I personally believe that Hermione is crying more from Pansy Parkinson and her gang laughing at her, than anything Snape says at that point. They were taunting her before Snape ever got there, and laughing behind his back in the middle of the confusion, but Hermione could see them.

I think when Snape says "I see no difference" he is speaking to Ron,who was implying that what happened to Hermione (giant teeth) was worse than what happened to Goyle (breaking out in painful pustules).

In other words, to Snape, what Draco did was just as wrong as what Harry did - both their spells hit other people. Hermione's case wasn't worse just because she was a Gryffindor girl.

Hermione was not zapped in order to make fun of her teeth, either. Draco was aiming for Harry and missed.
One more thing -- Harry and Ron were not in any trouble until they started cursing at Snape. Up till then, Snape was treating them just as he treated Draco who had gone into the classroom without any fuss. If H & R hadn't shouted at Snape, he might not have handed out any punishments for the "accidental" zapping of Hermione and Goyle.

JMO

[ignisia]

I go to bed for a few hours, and now we're on this scene?

I think one can suggest that Hermione was affected by Snape's words, mainly because she often looks up to authority figures and, I think, listens far more to them than to others.

As for Snape's intentions...Not a clue. It's a relatively minor incident, so IMO I can say that any interpretation that works with the text could be used without messing with the meaning. As Kat_Suki points out, there are many different ways one can view these scenes.

[leah49]

[*]How do you think Snape reacted to Harry's name coming out fo the Goblet of Fire?
He's going to kill himself. He's not worthy of being a Champion. He wouldn't have won on his own merits. He's too young. This is what Voldemort wants and there's no way I can stop him. Damn it, Karkaroff.
All thoughts running through his head.

[*]Do you think he and Dumbledore discussed how to proceed?
Oh, definitely.

[*]Do you think they suspected a connection between Harry's involvement in the tournament and Snape's reappearing Dark Mark?
Possibly. This is Dumbledore. He has to know this is not just some prank. No one could get past the age line, I'm surprised Karkaroff was able to throw in the name of a boy who was under the age anyway.

Originally Posted by bellatrix93

I think this is very possible. There was also Harry's scar that started hurting him and the dreams he had.

I couldn't remember if his scar hurt in this book, but yes, adding the scar is a major tip-off.

I realize I am under the impression that Snape knew it would happen and that Karkaroff did it. Does he know this?

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I'm sure Snape knew that Hermione was smart enough to know to go to the Hospital Wing for her tooth problem without having to be told. Goyle, not so much.

I'm pretty sure that Snape didn't give much thought to Hermione's health or state of mind. He'd have to be concerned about her to consider whether Hermione was smart enough to go to the nurse. Why would he be secretly concerned about her? I just don't get this. I get why Snape has to act like he is favours his own house over others, but really, there's nothing that suggests that he was in fact, acting. For any of his actions to be acting, his true nature would have to be different. This is not shown in any of the scenes in TPT.

Originally Posted by SIP

As far as the "cosmetic surgery" part of the equation: Hermione has Madam Pomfrey shrink her teeth smaller than before so it all has a happy ending.

I'm pretty sure that Snape didn't mastermind that either. Hermione got lucky that Pomfrey didn't remember what her teeth looked like before.

Originally Posted by SIP

However, I personally believe that Hermione is crying more from Pansy Parkinson and her gang laughing at her, than anything Snape says at that point. They were taunting her before Snape ever got there, and laughing behind his back in the middle of the confusion, but Hermione could see them.

That's highly unlikely, IMO. It isn't the first time that Hermione has been taunted or laughed at by Pansy and her gang. What is truly shocking about this scene is the teacher in charge taking sides in the taunting and mocking, when Hermione had done absolutely nothing other than being in the path of a deflected hex.

Originally Posted by SIP

I think when Snape says "I see no difference" he is speaking to Ron,who was implying that what happened to Hermione (giant teeth) was worse than what happened to Goyle (breaking out in painful pustules).

Okay, I looked at that passage, and Ron implied nothing of the sort. He simply says that "Malfoy got Hermione".

Originally Posted by SIP

In other words, to Snape, what Draco did was just as wrong as what Harry did - both their spells hit other people. Hermione's case wasn't worse just because she was a Gryffindor girl.

I disagree. I give Snape more credit than that. If what you suggest was what Snape (and the author) meant, couldn't he have made it clearer, so that it didn't look like the teacher was joining in in making fun of a teenage student in his care? It's not like Snape has trouble getting his point across all the time. Snape says what he wants to say, and he phrases it the way he intends to. If what you suggested is indeed what Snape was attempting to say, then he does an outstanding job of making it look like a cruel taunt. And when Snape does something like that, it's never by accident. Snape must have intentionally phrased it that way so that he could defend himself if confronted about it. It's what makes him such an efficient bully and a great character.

Originally Posted by SIP

One more thing -- Harry and Ron were not in any trouble until they started cursing at Snape. Up till then, Snape was treating them just as he treated Draco who had gone into the classroom without any fuss. If H & R hadn't shouted at Snape, he might not have handed out any punishments for the "accidental" zapping of Hermione and Goyle.

I think Snape knew perfectly well that his taunt would have the expected result, of provoking Harry and Ron to react violently and colourfully. Again, efficient bullying at work here.

I'd like to offer another point up for discussion. In a discussion outside this thread, some of my friends were discussing the scene in DH, TPT where Phineas informs Dumbledore that Harry and Hermione were in the Forest of Dean. Here's the scene.

TPT, DH “Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood —” “Do not use that word!” “— the Granger girl, then, mentioned the place as she opened her bag and I heard her!” “Good. Very good!” cried the portrait of Dumbledore behind the headmaster’s chair. “Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valor — and he must not know that you give it! If Voldemort should read Harry’s mind and see you acting for him —”

The point being discussed was, who was it that asked Phineas not to use that word? Was it Snape or Dumbledore? Phineas addresses the headmaster, but it's Dumbledore who speaks next, and he sounds quite excited. Could it be Dumbledore and not Snape who takes offense at Phineas's use of 'mudblood'? This would IMO, remove the inconsistency in the series where Snape has no trouble at all with people using the word until that moment. Thoughts?