Deportation of Roma from France

[moogirl]

Originally Posted by Midnightsfire

What business do the Romani have in moving to another country when they cannot neither speak the language, nor already have the job skills that they know will pay out?

If I were to move to another country I will already know the language and have a job waiting for me.

You don't go to another country and say "teach me and train me, and while you're at it clothe me, shelter me, feed me and keep me healthy."

France has enough problems with it's own citizenry and the high unemployment rate.

I concede, I do see your point. However, I don't think they'd have the resources to assess the situation of other countries. They probably just thought they might find better or more readily available low skilled jobs in France than Bulgaria or Romania.

Originally Posted by Siriusandme

And I don't think the Roma are being asked to leave because they are Roma, but because they cause trouble. Their culture or ethnicity is not the point.

But this "causing trouble" was what my post was objecting to - if they are criminals, let them be tried and deported in the usual fashion. A mass deportation of everyone from a race that happens to be causing more problems than others is not a good solution.

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

Unlike the Arizona case, that's not "racial profiling" that the French are doing, they are fighting crime and delinquency.

Same response as above - if they are delinquents and criminals, can they not be legally tried instead of all of them 'tarred with the same brush'? The French are civilised people and they can deal with this in a manner that's conducive to French standards - why has that been ignored here and everyone deported in an unusual and seemingly one-off case?

Also: will this become French policy now? Or is this really just a one-off?

[gertiekeddle]

1. Do you believe the deportation of Roma gypsies is the correct one or not?

I don't think it's the right measure.

2. What methods could the French government have employed as a viable alternative to deportation?

Integration. The money spent on the deportation (plains, trains, workers, 300 Euro for an adult Roma) could have spend as investment for future integration rather than repeating the same action every now and then.
These people don't have any other opportunity than to settle down at one place. Looking at history there's no such thing as their own land. I believe Europe is for decades generally rather helping out people and countries who can't take care for their own existence, I wish this finally would count for Romas too.
Even if one doesn't believe in a concept of social help, I don't think a deportation is any helpful since the measures go in circles.

3. Is this policy of deportation xenophobic and racist to you, or is it a humanitarian problem that can only be solved by sending the Roma gypies back to Romania?

I think it supports xenophobia and perhaps even racism, but it isn't itself. The State's job is to take care for his inhabitants. I don't agree with the way France just solve this problem, but they chose its a humanitarian problem. That's a difference in definition rather.
On the contrary I believe Europe in general should come to a solution and finally begin to treat Romas with more respect and work towards an integration in the according countries. Right now Romas are treated as second standard Europeans.
4. What is your impression of the Roma gypsy camps that have been set up?

If this really is - as often claimed by social workers - a better way to live for the camp inhabitans than beforehand, I support a politics of integration even more.

5. Why do you believe the gypsies moved to France in the first place?

I believed they were told and actually experienced that they could survive in France. I do not think Romas will stop settling in France due to the deportations. Even if they do, the humanitarian problem isn't solved at all. Imo we live in a time anymore where no country should only take care for its genuine inhabitans, but avoid to support others.

6. With greater integration of European nations, is it fair to say that France is neglecting its duty as a major power to improve conditions for ethic minorities that settle there? Or is it too much effort for little or no reward?

I believe in the first.

7. Do you have any personal experience of being an immigrant? How were you or your family treated?

I don't have any such experiences, but my family has. Leaving your home and trying to settle down in a new environment is never easy. I'm very grateful that I never was in such a situation and can't even quite imagine how useless one would feel and how tough the struggle is to finally lead a 'normal' life again.
That's said I believe France showed as much respect as you can show towards the individuals, when you already have decided to deport people. I just don't agree with the deportation as measure of politics in this case.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by hemhem20X6

It saddens me that these people had to work in France in order to send money back home. Are there descent jobs for Roma in Romania and Bulgaria, or is this a symptom of their being denied jobs there?

Living condition in France is much better than in countries like Romania. For example the average salary income in France is around 26,416 $ and in Romania 3,756 $. That's one of the reasons why people from Eastern European countries move to the West.

Also like said before the reputation of Roma isn't really the best in general. They don't or hardly get education, so it's almost impossible to get a job. The Roma I know earned their money by selling stuff like veggies and they did lower jobs like scavenging the streets from time to time.

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by moogirl

A mass deportation of everyone from a race that happens to be causing more problems than others is not a good solution.

It is not a "mass deportation of everyone from a race". First, the Gypsies who ARE integrated are not deported. The people being deported are those who are in an illegal situation (no legal residence, as in the case Yoana mentioned, for example - and all those people were working illegally, or caught doing illegal/criminal activities.) All those camps are illegal squatter settlements.

Second, according to the French Interior Minister, criminality rate has jumped up 140% a year among the Roma population in the last few years. It's not easy to separate the criminals from the rest, but the authorities are doing their best. They should be given credit for it.

Originally Posted by gertiekeddle

2. What methods could the French government have employed as a viable alternative to deportation?

Integration. The money spent on the deportation (plains, trains, workers, 300 Euro for an adult Roma) could have spend as investment for future integration rather than repeating the same action every now and then.

I take it that by "plains", you mean "planes". It's funny because the French Gypsies are settled mostly in the plain (the Crau for example, in the South).

Seriously, though. "Integration" is easier said than done. France already faces the challenge of integrating the Fundamentalist Muslims who speak French, have legal residences and jobs, with only limited success. It would be very difficult to try to integrate a foreign population who doesn't necessarily want to be integrated. For example, they're sending all the money they earn, honestly or not, to their home countries, instead of using it to find decent lodging, and send their children out to beg and steal instead of sending them to school. You can't integrate them against their will either. Incidentally, the politically correct phrasing nowadays is "voluntary return". Unlike illegal immigrants, mostly from Africa, who are forcibly put aboard planes, the Roma who accept the money and go home do so of their own free will. That they return right afterwards is a different matter.

Another point, in view of the current economic situation world-wide, no country can afford a bunch of foreigners who contribute nothing to the local or national economy - since practically every euro cent they earn (apart I guess for the minimum needed to live) is being sent back to the country of origin. Why should any country support a population that drains some of its resources, create problems, and contribute nothing?

I saw an article on the international issue of Der Spiegel about what Germany may do with its own Roma. I only skimmed the article, but I did see that German officials are foreseeing a massive influx of Roma in the near future. It'll be interesting to see how they will deal with it.

Here's the link:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...628530,00.html

The question has been asked before, but as far as I know, not been answered. Quite a number of other EU countries have deported (or given the choice of "voluntary return" to) their Roma migrants. Why is France being singled out as the only "villain" here?

[Tenshi]

For once I don't think that the other countries put them in planes and offered them money for leaving, this probably got the attention of the media. And as we know, what the media publishes causes most commotion. I don't think that most Germans even know about the Roma in their own country.

From tha article:

She said Germany and other democratic states had a special responsibility to minorities like the Roma because of Hitler's efforts to exterminate them.

Nope, I don't think so.

[hemhem20X6]

Originally Posted by Tenshi

From the article:

Nope, I don't think so.

I don't understand, Tenshi. Are you saying that Roma were not killed (Wikipedia says otherwise, with many sources) ? Or are you saying that Germany has no special obligation to minorities which Hitler tried to exterminate?

The latter is a more complicated subject, but I feel that there certainly is a legitimate claim to be made for trying to help those who were persecuted by the Nazis. Whether or not it is still valid is debatable.

I agree with Tenshi in that this was the first time that the media really payed attention to this issue, and that this is the reason France is being demonized while other countries aren't. Had this news been well publicized for other countries, they would have been demonized for it as well.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by hemhem20X6

I don't understand, Tenshi. Are you saying that Roma were not killed (Wikipedia says otherwise, with many sources) ? Or are you saying that Germany has no special obligation to minorities which Hitler tried to exterminate?

The latter. In general I am not in favour of paying money to people as compensation for things that happened so many years ago. They can ask for support, but not based on those reasons. They can get money if they reciprocate accordingly.

[Rastaban43]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

The question has been asked before, but as far as I know, not been answered. Quite a number of other EU countries have deported (or given the choice of "voluntary return" to) their Roma migrants. Why is France being singled out as the only "villain" here?

I think that's more to do with the fact that France is one of the harshest critics of the U.S. and European countries when it comes to human rights violations, so when they do something that appears itself to be a human rights violation, people will naturally call them out on their hypocrisy. Perhaps it's just a little hot at the moment, but if France (the government) truly is treating the Roma with respect (because we know the people don't), it'll die down. But whatever their motives, the money they're spending organizing and effecting the deportation of Roma is pretty much wasted, especially from the perspective that it does nothing to solve any bigger problem.

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by Rastaban43

I think that's more to do with the fact that France is one of the harshest critics of the U.S. and European countries when it comes to human rights violations, so when they do something that appears itself to be a human rights violation, people will naturally call them out on their hypocrisy. Perhaps it's just a little hot at the moment, but if France (the government) truly is treating the Roma with respect (because we know the people don't), it'll die down. But whatever their motives, the money they're spending organizing and effecting the deportation of Roma is pretty much wasted, especially from the perspective that it does nothing to solve any bigger problem.

Allow me to point out that France is not violating any human rights here. Don't take my word for it, look at Yoana's quote of a Bulgarian paper. The law enforcement people are under a tight check in France, much more than in other countries. Unlike in, say the US (see Rodney King, Abner Louima, several other people beaten up or gunned down without provocation), police brutality is not tolerated. Sarkozy is very adamant about it. When they stop you, for any reason, French cops always salute first, and are always polite. I sure can't say the same for the cops I've seen in NYC - though there are exceptions.

Please tell me what leads you to think that "the [French] people don't" [treat the Roma with respect]? My friend who was mugged fought back, but that doesn't show a lack of respect. It was self-defense.

The money spent may be wasted - It is very possible you're right. But that's the best the French government can do, to calm down the victims of Roma criminality, without violating the Roma's rights. Instead of being maligned, it should be given credit for trying to solve a problem that's not solvable at the national level.

The other European countries are waking up to that fact. I had an e-mail earlier today from a Belgian friend on the subject, with a link to a paper - but it's in French, and I can't take the time to translate it here.

We can only hope that Europe as a whole will come together, host countries and home countries alike, to find a solution.

ETA - Actually, the "gypsies" (which is what the Roma are) are (or were, before all the Roma criminality problem) enjoying a certain aura of romance in France. I've already mentioned the French gypsies and their very well-attended festivals. There are also songs celebrating them, like "Les Gitans" ("The Gypsies") or "Chariot", that romanticize the nomadic life and the fact that Gypsies are migrants moving from country to country.

"Les Gitans" is about gypsies from Bohemia, Andalucia, Italy, etc. gathering at a camp and ends with "It's the song of wandering people who don't have borders, it's the ardent prayer of the Gypsy Night" - Type "Les Gitans" on YouTube, several versions of the song will come up. The song is a paean to the Gypsies.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

Allow me to point out that France is not violating any human rights here. Don't take my word for it, look at Yoana's quote of a Bulgarian paper. The law enforcement people are under a tight check in France, much more than in other countries. Unlike in, say the US (see Rodney King, Abner Louima, several other people beaten up or gunned down without provocation), police brutality is not tolerated. Sarkozy is very adamant about it. When they stop you, for any reason, French cops always salute first, and are always polite. I sure can't say the same for the cops I've seen in NYC - though there are exceptions

That is purely a matter of opinion, and exemplary of limited experience. You've obviously never been harassed by the police without cause, but whatever you might claim about any particular country's (or state's, province's, county's, city's, town's) police, there are always always abuses.

[Alastor]

Police misconduct in general is of course not the topic of this thread, but I'll allow myself as much as to tell that in my country abuse committed by police officers on duty is definitely not an always always thingy. On the contrary it's very rare and any police officer proven guilty of abuse is sacked.

Back to topic:
Fleur, I'm not sure what you meant with other countries waking up. To the problem as a whole or to that France "should be given credit for trying to solve a problem that's not solvable at the national level"? I believe that most countries have been fully aware of the problem for years, but unable to agree on a solution. Sending home everyone who is either caught committing a crime or staying for more than 3 months isn't a final solution. Not as long as new ones are moving in all the time.

I stumbled on some Finnish stats yesterday. The number of foreigners sent home due to criminal activity in January - July this year is over 400. Compare to 250 last year. The biggest group is Russian but there is a huge increase in the number of Estonians and Romanians. And as type of crime involved theft has increased more than tenfold. The numbers are small, but Finland is also a small country.

I'm afraid that if France manages to decrease their number significantly, their numbers in other countries will just increase accordingly.

[gertiekeddle]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

I take it that by "plains", you mean "planes".

Yep, planes - thanks! Not as worse as this one time when I mixed up ferries and fairies...

Seriously, though. "Integration" is easier said than done.

Definitely. I don't say it's easy, I just say I rather support measures which go into the direction of integration than those who deport the problem.

Another point, in view of the current economic situation world-wide, no country can afford a bunch of foreigners who contribute nothing to the local or national economy - since practically every euro cent they earn (apart I guess for the minimum needed to live) is being sent back to the country of origin. Why should any country support a population that drains some of its resources, create problems, and contribute nothing?

To me there are many reasons. One, with which maybe even those agree who prefer to take care for their own nation only, is that they will come back - so imo France wasted money with the deportation. If people actually lived in a country they imo don't only send money back, but also spend it for many things such as insurances, consume, flats or houses. I think those Romas who lived under very low conditions without electricity or any luxury hadn't have a perspective to spend money in their current economy. This would imo change when people are integrated.

So imo integration needs to take place before problems vanish and people actually have the opportunity to contribute and pay back resources. Right now France imo only wastes resources and indeed gets nothing back (others than bad publicity and - unfortunately - likely an increase in xenophobia).

Another reason for me is that I don't believe that the current economic situation of a wealth country (be it France, Germany or which country ever) and as such their inhabitans is even half as bad as the living conditions of the Roma. I'm currently unemployed, but still own a computer, have a house, a heater and many luxury articles. With that I've a better live than 90% of the world's population. It's entirely my opinion, but I'd rather share with people who are close to loose any existence they ever had.
I see and support that a State needs to take care for its own wealth first, otherwise they won't be able to support any other people ever. But I also believe that integration Roma would be possible moral-wise as also make more sense economically than to deport people.

It'll be interesting to see how they will deal with it.

I'm afraid they do similar actions such as France, with some luck (in my point of view, though) they don't repeat the mistake due to the massive negative press France gets right now. The already mentioned historical past might prevent tough actions for some time, but in the end I agree with many who said that right now every wealthy European country rather takes measures such as deporting people than to try to integrate, what's for me to actually solve the problem which already developed decades ago.

[Rastaban43]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

Allow me to point out that France is not violating any human rights here.

Sorry, I must not have been as delicate as I meant to be, but perhaps a little emphasis will help. I said:

"So when they do something that appears itself to be a human rights violation, people will naturally call them out on their hypocrisy. Perhaps it's just a little hot at the moment, but if France (the government) truly is treating the Roma with respect (because we know the people don't), it'll die down."

Please tell me what leads you to think that "the [French] people don't" [treat the Roma with respect]? My friend who was mugged fought back, but that doesn't show a lack of respect. It was self-defense.

Perhaps it is a mistake for me to generalise because most of my experience with European attitudes toward Roma come from Italy, where Roma are without question treated like trash -- not by the government so much but the people show no reserve when it comes to their hatred of "Gypsies."

ETA - Actually, the "gypsies" (which is what the Roma are) are (or were, before all the Roma criminality problem) enjoying a certain aura of romance in France. I've already mentioned the French gypsies and their very well-attended festivals. There are also songs celebrating them, like "Les Gitans" ("The Gypsies") or "Chariot", that romanticize the nomadic life and the fact that Gypsies are migrants moving from country to country.

"Les Gitans" is about gypsies from Bohemia, Andalucia, Italy, etc. gathering at a camp and ends with "It's the song of wandering people who don't have borders, it's the ardent prayer of the Gypsy Night" - Type "Les Gitans" on YouTube, several versions of the song will come up. The song is a paean to the Gypsies.

I think it's a little naive to romanticise Roma when they're on the streets thieving. If they're such a cultural necessity, why are we getting rid of them? You can celebrate them all day long till one picks your pocket, then you're happy they're being deported too.

I think the point people are trying to make is, if the ones who are caught committing a crime were convicted (possibly even deported), it would allow the ones who really would like to integrate to do so, because then perhaps, the prejudices would slowly die away. As it is, how many people do you know who would be willing to employ a lazy, thieving Gypsy? Again, my experience with Roma is not in France, but it's sort of unbelievable to me that the same prejudices that exist across Europe don't exist in France as well. The simple fact Roma are being centered out for deportation speaks loud and clear that there is plenty of prejudice in France. Deport them for crimes, not for being Roma.

Of course, I'm not too naive to believe that if France instituted a policy of deportation of non-French European citizens for petty crimes that people wouldn't just call it veiled racism, so maybe we should commend France and the other countries for wearing their racism proudly on their sleeves. Is France trying to solve the problem for the Roma or for themselves? And does deportation actually solve any problem or just create more?

These are just all hot-button issues, but the only real problem I have with France's new deportation policy is that their reasoning is to remove Roma from bad living situations. They make it sound as if they're concerned for the welfare of Roma, so they send them to an even worse situation, albeit out of sight, out of mind.

[Midnightsfire]

Originally Posted by gertiekeddle

So imo integration needs to take place before problems vanish and people actually have the opportunity to contribute and pay back resources. Right now France imo only wastes resources and indeed gets nothing back (others than bad publicity and - unfortunately - likely an increase in xenophobia).

Integration takes place before one even leaves his/her respective country. And one doesn't leave until one has a job waiting for him/her in that other country.
One should not be a parasite to another country and hope it will care for him (Teaching him/her, housing him/her, etc...) especially when that other country is having difficulty caring for its own citizenry. Which would unfortunately justify a degree of xenophobia if immigrants were be taken care of over the country's citizens.

Originally Posted by Rastaban43

These are just all hot-button issues, but the only real problem I have with France's new deportation policy is that their reasoning is to remove Roma from bad living situations. They make it sound as if they're concerned for the welfare of Roma, so they send them to an even worse situation, albeit out of sight, out of mind.

*shrugs*
Imagine if you were a French citizen (I don't know if you are..?):
What are the benefits/costs after the Roma (those that haven't "integrated" or more to the point, those that haven't found a job since moving to France) are finally gone?

[gertiekeddle]

Originally Posted by Midnightsfire

Integration takes place before one even leaves his/her respective country. And one doesn't leave until one has a job waiting for him/her in that other country.
One should not be a parasite to another country and hope it will care for him (Teaching him/her, housing him/her, etc...) especially when that other country is having difficulty caring for its own citizenry. Which would unfortunately justify a degree of xenophobia if immigrants were be taken care of over the country's citizens.

Theoretically I agree, but realistically I just don't see how it is more helpful (even for France) to just deport people and hope another European country would take care. Imo a better solution is in order eventually - and if it were to support Romania with integration matters.
We unfortunately have richer and poorer countries. As said above I believe the rich countries need to take care for their status to not fall into the other category themselves. But I also believe we're as far these days to have realized that help for people without existence is appropriate and also pays back.

[Muggle_Magic]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

The question has been asked before, but as far as I know, not been answered. Quite a number of other EU countries have deported (or given the choice of "voluntary return" to) their Roma migrants. Why is France being singled out as the only "villain" here?

One possible answer is Francophobia, aka bashing the French. This reminds me of the spring and summer of 2003, when France was far from the only country to oppose the Iraq war, and yet, Condi Rice said that "We [the US] should forgive Russia, forget Germany and punish France" and it was French wine that was poured down the gutters, French cheese that was boycotted (ah, the "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" ), French-bashing jokes that were flooding the Internet, cars with French flag stickers that got deliberately bumped... I apologize for going off-topic, but the comparison jumped into my mind.

Originally Posted by canismajoris

That is purely a matter of opinion, and exemplary of limited experience. You've obviously never been harassed by the police without cause, but whatever you might claim about any particular country's (or state's, province's, county's, city's, town's) police, there are always always abuses.

None of us can know, or comment on Fleur's personal experience. It is not obvious to me from what she wrote that she'd "never been harassed without cause." Nor did she generalize any given situation. Since this is OT, I won't pursue it.

Originally Posted by Alastor

Police misconduct in general is of course not the topic of this thread, but I'll allow myself as much as to tell that in my country abuse committed by police officers on duty is definitely not an always always thingy. On the contrary it's very rare and any police officer proven guilty of abuse is sacked.

In fact, in France there has been several cases, when Nicolas Sarkozy was Interior Minister, and now after he's been elected President, where police officers proven guilty of brutality have been sacked. One officer who shot a hooligan in self-defense was dragged before Internal Affairs before he was proved innocent of abuse and reintegrated. I actually tried, a year or two ago, to start a thread on the subject of police brutality and how it was dealt with in different countries, but it was deemed too hot and controversial a subject. And OT here. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by Rastaban43

I think it's a little naive to romanticise Roma when they're on the streets thieving. If they're such a cultural necessity, why are we getting rid of them? You can celebrate them all day long till one picks your pocket, then you're happy they're being deported too.

There's a little misunderstanding here. The two songs that Fleur mentioned are from the 60's or 70's, before the Roma "immigration" became a problem. "Les Gitans", if I'm not mistaken, is about the annual gathering of Gypsies at Saintes-Marie-de-la-Mer, which is still taking place every year. The French gypsies playing host to the gathering are those who've been in the country for generations. I doubt the Roma who are thieving bother to go there. But in substance, you are right. You can hardly be romantic about someone who robs you. The songs are not about them. I think Fleur was trying to say that there is no racism or discrimination against the gypsies per se, that the bad feelings are towards the criminal elements.

I think the point people are trying to make is, if the ones who are caught committing a crime were convicted (possibly even deported), it would allow the ones who really would like to integrate to do so, because then perhaps, the prejudices would slowly die away. As it is, how many people do you know who would be willing to employ a lazy, thieving Gypsy?

Good point.

Again, my experience with Roma is not in France, but it's sort of unbelievable to me that the same prejudices that exist across Europe don't exist in France as well. The simple fact Roma are being centered out for deportation speaks loud and clear that there is plenty of prejudice in France. Deport them for crimes, not for being Roma.

There's another misunderstanding here. The media and this debate center on the deportation of Roma, not mentioning the deportation of other criminals or illegal immigrants from other ethnic groups. They are all deported for crimes, not for being Congolese, Chinese or Roma.

That the recent law is about Roma in illegal situations, and the media seized on it, doesn't mean either that member of other groups are not deported for the same crimes, or that the Roma are deported just for being Roma.

Originally Posted by Midnightsfire

Integration takes place before one even leaves his/her respective country. And one doesn't leave until one has a job waiting for him/her in that other country.
One should not be a parasite to another country and hope it will care for him (Teaching him/her, housing him/her, etc...) especially when that other country is having difficulty caring for its own citizenry. Which would unfortunately justify a degree of xenophobia if immigrants were be taken care of over the country's citizens.

I agree absolutely.

ETA:

Originally Posted by Alastor

I'm afraid that if France manages to decrease their number significantly, their numbers in other countries will just increase accordingly.

But France sends the Roma back to their home countries, not to third countries. If the Roma then decide to go to, say, Belgium, Spain, Finland or Germany instead of going back to France, that's hardly France's fault, is it? That is why the problem should be tackled at the European-as-a-whole level.

[Alastor]

Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic

But France sends the Roma back to their home countries, not to third countries. If the Roma then decide to go to, say, Belgium, Spain, Finland or Germany instead of going back to France, that's hardly France's fault, is it? That is why the problem should be tackled at the European-as-a-whole level.

That's right. It isn't France's fault. I do agree that the problem should be solved at the European-as-a-whole level as the home countries are unable to do it. My comment was intended as an illustration of the fact that it is an all European problem.

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

That is purely a matter of opinion, and exemplary of limited experience. You've obviously never been harassed by the police without cause

Actually, I have been harassed without cause. I'd have thought my mention of how NYC cops are so different from their Parisian and other French counterparts was a hint to that effect. I just didn't want to develop it as it is not the topic of this thread.

You seem to make sweeping judgments without any fact to support them. How do you know my experience is limited? You don't know anything about me, you just assume certain things without trying to understand what I'm trying to say.

but whatever you might claim about any particular country's (or state's, province's, county's, city's, town's) police, there are always always abuses.

I wasn't "claiming" anything, I was stating facts. Of course there are always abuses. It's how the authorities in different countries deal with those abuses that matters.

M_M, thanks for clearing up that thing about the Gypsy songs. You're right, that's what I meant when I talked about "romantizing" the vagrant way of life. Those songs date from long before some of the posters in here were born.

Good point about French-bashing. I remember that period well, and it's not a pleasant memory. Unfortunately, it looks like that period is not over.

Originally Posted by gertiekeddle

... I just don't see how it is more helpful (even for France) to just deport people and hope another European country would take care. Imo a better solution is in order eventually - and if it were to support Romania with integration matters.

I don't think it's fair to say that France "just deports people and hope another European country would take care" of them. France (just like the US and other countries) deports people in illegal situations back to their home countries, who are primarily responsible for their own citizens.

France has enough integration problems of its own to be able to single-handedly help Romania, Bulgaria and other Roma home countries. Like several people, including myself, said before, this has to be dealt with at the wider European level. Pointing fingers at France is not going to help the Roma a whole lot. Sharing the burden, and getting to a common solution together will.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

Actually, I have been harassed without cause. I'd have thought my mention of how NYC cops are so different from their Parisian and other French counterparts was a hint to that effect. I just didn't want to develop it as it is not the topic of this thread..

My point was that unless there have never been abuses and there never will be again, it is a factor. I'm not comfortable just putting a rubber stamp on it, because for one thing we are talking about a forced relocation of a group people. How many times in history has that been done peacefully? The Roma themselves have faced persecution for centuries. So I hope you can see why I might be skeptical.

[Alastor]

I think I said already that the question of whether police abuse may be supposed to have occurred in France in connection with these deportations or not is not the topic of this thread. Move that discussion over to owls, please!