Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Harry Potter had become a powerful symbol of resistance to the dark lord and gave people the courage an hope to resist him. By letting one of his cronies kill Harry, he would basically be admitting he can't do it himself.

I can see that, it was starting to look like a Tom & Harry cartoon. The more times he tried to kill Harry the more impossible it would be to stop trying. If it was a genuine prophecy then it was pre-destined for Voldemort to kill Harry, so he needn't have bothered.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I can see that, it was starting to look like a Tom & Harry cartoon. The more times he tried to kill Harry the more impossible it would be to stop trying. If it was a genuine prophecy then it was pre-destined for Voldemort to kill Harry, so he needn't have bothered.

Voldemort only heard a half of the prophecy so he didn't know exactly how it went. The key to the prophecy was that Harry would have a piece of Voldemort in him (mark him as his equal) and he'd have power the dark lord knows not (which was love, the only magic Voldemort didn't understand or have).

These two are the reason Voldemort failed to kill him each time (the love charm, the blood, the wands being the same core, them being so joined together because of the piece of soul, Harry's wands absorbed some of his power, etc)

[ajna]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

I think people cry Deus ex Machina (or however you spell it) too quickly.

Pretend it was real life. I was sending three young adults on this quest. I ensured they'd have a cell phone in-case they got separated. When they use this cell phone, is that too convenient and contrived? I was just using logic and common sense to prepare them and make sure they would be alright. Not to do so would be incredibly stupid.

What's funny is that a muggle cell-phone is really a fantastical object if you think about it. To be able to call anyone from nearly everywhere and it's portable, small and wireless. The internet is another muggle invention that's even more imaginative and amazing than most things in the wizarding world. If a wizard wrote a book about a muggle and the muggle character used the internet to find out a whole bunch of information (all the info they needed) and a cell phone to keep in touch with each other, wizard readers would call that Dues ex Machina.

I like the point you make. But I don't really think it's the same thing as Deus ex machina, because it wasn't like Ron simply picked up a deluminator that is lying on the ground. It was given to him with knowledge and forethought. Now the mirror, that's kind of interesting, but it too was given well ahead of time. The deluminator reminds me of Frodo's Phial of light from Galadriel, to be use when it is darkest. The thing that feels most like Deus ex machina is the sword. That one doesn't feel quite right, but it kind of works out because it works out so much of Rons stuff and his demons. But I agree with you, because really if we go with the whole Deus ex machina theory, then the wands are also that. In terms of foreshadowing, I think most were. I thought the mokeskin bag might come into play more, but it didn't.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Voldemort only heard a half of the prophecy so he didn't know exactly how it went.

It's not so much what the prophecy said, or how much each character heard, it's more about the concept of a prophecy. Either people can avoid their destiny, or they can't. If Voldemort could order Draco to kill Harry, then the prophecy is null and void. Turns out he could have, but didn't want to.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

It's not so much what the prophecy said, or how much each character heard, it's more about the concept of a prophecy. Either people can avoid their destiny, or they can't. If Voldemort could order Draco to kill Harry, then the prophecy is null and void. Turns out he could have, but didn't want to.

The story is about self-fulfilling prophecies. The prophecy only came true because Vodlemort acted on it. The prophecy only continued to ring true because Voldemort continued to hunt Harry and wanted to be the one to kill him. The series is about how free-will is more important than destiny which is what Dumbledore tried to teach Harry in HBP.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

The story is about self-fulfilling prophecies. The prophecy only came true because Vodlemort acted on it. The prophecy only continued to ring true because Voldemort continued to hunt Harry and wanted to be the one to kill him. The series is about how free-will is more important than destiny which is what Dumbledore tried to teach Harry in HBP.

I understand the meaning of the story, but if it was completely optional all along, what was Trelawny seeing/saying? Did she make it up? Was it all her fault?

Without the prophecy nothing would have happened, but the source of the prophecy isn't explained, it just existed as a fact.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by Quachett

everything you said is true, but my problem with it is that, even if its logical, its a bit too much, there is always ready made excuse, a well thought out plan, a provision a lucky break, a favourible set of circumstances. The Malfoy Manor sequence Is by far the one thing I believe the series can not go on without as Harry needed a way to defeat Voldemort. No matter how powerful Harry might be, he was just too young and inexperienced to do it on skill and power alone. Ron coming back is yet another thing that cant be changed, I always believe that it was well written especially when Ron says he has been following them for a number of days showing that his arrival was not just out of the blue.

My problem is that there are some scenes that could have done with a bit more action than what was written or there should have been more scenes with danger and fighting to show that this is war and these three are being hunted by a lot of people. Moody's speech in OotP was about how these death eaters were tracking down order menbers and killing them. We even heard about the effectiveness of thier tracking methods, yet they never came close to the trio and only got to them through Harry's mistake.

I would have liked one scene in which the trio get to actually duel full on, no ducking no hiding behind objects just proper duelling and escape with thier lives. Have them battle the deffenses of some heavily protected Horcrux, showing why Dumbledore trusted Harry to do it in the first place, because I still cant believe Dumbledore sent Harry on a Mission to retrieve objects that are potentially powerfully protected without teaching him something about breaking curses. These scenes would show Harry's status as the hero then introduce small traces of Luck to show that his courage and bravery are great as he keeps fighting powerful forces. If at every turn he escapes because of some, admitedly well explained, luck then his courage or will or strength of character a nullified as he is one lucky dude

I think it is part of the point of the journey that Harry is not particularly skilled or accomplished. I think I tried, unsuccessfully, to address this idea in a thread The Most Powerful Magic. I think it is precisely the crux of the entire matter. They don't have tremendous skills, or talents. They do get by on a lot of luck and good fortune. They use toys (detonators) from a joke shop in an espionage mission! And succeed! But I don't think that's what it's about. It's about their unity, their friendship, their love for each other. That is what makes them powerful. That is what allows them to somehow, by the skin of their teeth, continue to keep on eluding Voldemort. Their skill and power isn't enough to match his. The only thing necessary, the only thing that actually has to happen is for Harry to reach the point of truth and revelation and willingly sacrifice himself. He never needed to be better at spells, or magic. He only needed his friendship, and his love to survive until the time came. And that's how it worked out. It certainly could have worked out otherwise, because Voldy was more powerful, but in the end, being 'powerful' or 'skilled' wasn't was necessary. Does anyone think Harry would have succeeded without his friends?

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I don't think Ron needed to know what it was or how it worked. I think it was triggered when Hermione said Ron's name, not by accident.



Later on, Harry refers to Ron's Auntie Murial as 'Ginny's great aunt' to avoid saying Ron's name. After Godric's Hollow, Hermione had to bring herself to say Ron's name, referring to the time Ron broke his wand, and that set off the deluminator.

That would mean Ron couldn't make it work even if he knew what it was, unless Harry or Hermione called him by name. If they'd wanted him back, or were looking for him, they would have said his name, so they didn't need to know either.

As Snape pointed out in OOTP, "Time and space matter in magic". Harry and Hermione were miles away - nowhere near Ron and the deluminator. Nothing they said or did could have any effect on the deluminator itself because they were not there - Jo established that rule of magic in OOTP. As such, it had to be Ron who said or did something to activate it because the deluminator was in is possession at that time. However - as Ron told Harry and Hermione later - he didn't know what that was because he did it by accident. Dumbledore never gave him any instruction on how to use that function of the deluminator.

Originally Posted by Quachett

I have something that has bothered me whenever I read the books and I think it’s a plot hole but I’m not sure if you guys think so too.

Why did the books sort of ignore Harry’s magical learning, especially when it came to DADA? I know it sounds strange that I would mention DADA as this was his best subject. What I am referring to is not Academic DADA I mean real DADA, you dealing with powerful dark curses and breaking powerful enchantments. I say this because Harry said or did things that made this a problem for me. There is the overall Issue of him playing the hero yet he never prepares himself. I will give him books 1 and 2 as he was quite young and beginning to learn but from book 3 he developed a pattern that seemed strange, He had the Dementor threat and he addressed it and that was fine but then came Sirius’s threat. Harry did nothing to prepare himself if he had to face him yet he just ignored the fact. When he found out about Him being his Godfather he wished him to find him so that he could kill him yet we never saw him prepare, ultimately the threat came to nothing but steal the trend had started.

In OotP same thing happened, Voldemort was back and Harry knew that this was now business especially given the ministry’s complacence it was so important that harry prepare himself for the fight. He even remarked that he wanted to join the order and fight yet he never prepared for the fight. I know People might say He was in the DA but remember that He taught the DA what he knew not Learn anything new or at least powerful. This was proved in the battle at the ministry when in a proper one on one Duel he failed to present a threat to Bellatrix. He swore revenge against her for killing Sirius then came book 6.

In HBP with the promise he made to avenge his godfather now in place Harry still did nothing to prepare himself were he to face Bella again, He became so obsessed with Malfoy and his hatred of Snape that he had no mind for anything else. His performance in DADA dipped, because of his unwillingness to learn from Snape, and he did nothing to improve his DADA. Even at the beginning of HBP Hermione and Ron remark that Dumbledore might teach Harry advanced magic, indicating in my opinion the need for that knowledge, but still nothing happened. As a result at the end of HBP he was almost killed at the cave by the protection, tried to fight Snape lost again easily and again declared revenge against Snape then came book 7.

DH, and Harry still does not address the DADA issue. He kept remarking how he wanted to meet Snape and fight him and I wondered how he expected a different result given the fact that he still was not an occlumence nor did he learn anything else. I wondered how he would retrieve the Horcruxes if they had the kind off protective enchantments like the ring and Locket seeing as he never learnt to break curses. He even remarked about his short comings with mending injuries but he still never learnt how to in the book. He spent all that time doing nothing searching for Horcruxes yet the books never say he practise or learnt anything. Some people like to say he had Hermione to help but she was as useless as well as her knowledge was limited to academic magic, besides Harry was supposed to be the best at dealing with these issues so her inclusion was more in the line of other magic than the DADA related.

As a result of these short comings, The remaining Horcruxes had lamentable protection so as to logically have harry get then without creating a Deus Ex Machina. All his fights seemed to be won on a physical base than magic. I might be wrong but I don’t remember in the series Harry actually blocking a curse, except during his DADA exam, or redirecting it. He kept on using the standard fighting spells and never once just stamped his authority in a fight. When he fought Draco, it felt so amateurish as it was a combination of him ducking and Draco missing than something good like the Snape McGonnagal brief fight. I DON’T KNOW IF THIS Bothered you like it did me and I think it was a plot hole as it ended up leading the plot in a direction that focus more on Harry’s personality, thoughts and fears than address the potential monumental magical before him.

I somewhat agree with you for HBP and DH, but I disagree with the previous books because Harry did make an effort to learn what he needed to know in those situations.

PS/SS and COS - the trio spent a lot of time investigating and in the library doing research to gather information. Harry paid attention to what Dumbledore told him and applied what he learned to the situations he found himself in.

POA - the major issue there was the dementors and Harry actively sought lessons with Lupin to learn how to fight dementors. As far as Sirius went, there wasn't really anything Harry could do there because his supposed "enemy" was an older, more experienced wizard. As with Voldemort, it simply wasn't possible for Harry to "catch up" and know what his enemy knew or have an equal amount of experience in such a short time frame. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have and take advantage of opportunities that present themselves.

GOF - Harry was a bit lazy with the egg clue and stubborn in waiting so long to take Cedric's advice because he was jealous due to his feelings for Cho. However, once he did figure out the clue, he put a lot of time and effort into trying to learn what he needed to know by doing research in the library. I'm more curious about why they never came across the bubble head charm in all those hours they spent researching actually. Though it's certainly possible that the books they needed had been checked out by Cedric and Fleur since they were the ones who used that charm. Same goes for the third task - Harry spent hours with Ron and Hermione doing research and practicing every defensive spell they could find that might be of use to him in the maze. After doing all that, all three of them were well ahead of their other classmates in DADA - which Hermione pointed out on page.

OOTP - the DA was very useful and, while they did put a lot of focus on the defensive magic they were supposed to be learning in class that Umbridge refused to teach them, they also went above and beyond that. Harry used the set of defensive books that Lupin and Sirius gave him for Christmas to teach the DA as well. This came up in HBP with Harry as well as Ernie pointing out that those who were in the DA already knew things being covered in DADA that year.

As such, Harry and those who were in the DA were very advanced in the subject of DADA because of all that research and practice. They were ahead of their class in terms of what they were supposed to know and be learning in class.

However, I do agree that it was a very odd decision not to continue the DA in HBP - particularly after they discovered Snape would be teaching DADA that year. Harry didn't trust Snape and often disagreed with what Snape was teaching them because of his own experiences and what he had learned on his own with the tournament and leading the DA. I was surprised that Jo didn't have them continue with the DA - if nothing else to be able to practice.

That being said, I don't see that as an issue in regards to Harry having to fight Voldemort. As I said before, there simply was no possible way for Harry to "catch up" to Voldemort's level of knowledge or experience. Voldemort was around 70 years old, had finished Hogwarts, and spent years studying and mastering the Dark Arts. Harry couldn't do any more than he did to prepare for fighting Voldemort as far as learning defensive spells - he only had 7 years to learn where Voldemort had 60.

Where I fault Harry - and Dumbledore - was in not preparing himself in other ways for what he was about to face. One thing was pointed out on page in DH - Harry never bothered to study or learn even the most basic healing charms. He knew the one spell that Tonks had used on his nose in HBP, but that wasn't enough. Hermione comes to the rescue in that area - not only studying, but stocking up on supplies they might need for healing - but that was something that I felt Harry should have thought of and been preparing for.

Likewise, there was no study or preparation for curse-breaking. Dumbledore knew that Harry might have to utilize curse-breaking to locate the Horcruxes, but he never went over ways to do that with Harry. Harry knew that was possible after his discussions with Dumbledore and particularly his experience in the cave, but he doesn't think to prepare for that possibility - and he had access to a skilled and knowledgeable curse-breaker with Bill Weasley. That was Bill's job with Gringotts - he would have been a valuable source for the trio to tap, but they never considered it.

Mostly I fault Dumbledore for not giving Harry all the information he needed regarding Horcruxes - specifically how to destroy them and that the sword could be used for that. As I mentioned before, Dumbledore should also have gone over his own search with Harry so the trio wouldn't waste time looking in places he had already eliminated. In the end, the Horcruxes were located and destroyed through luck rather than the trio being prepared. There are a lot of issues with how that was presented, IMO.

Originally Posted by LuMac

I got one from CoS.

Only Harry could hear the basilisk because he could speak/understand Parseltongue, but why would inability to speak/understand Parseltongue make you deaf to a gigantic snake's hissing sounds reverberating all over the school? When a snake normally 'talks', everybody can hear a hissing sound. When Harry speaks Parseltongue around others, they can hear him hissing. So why couldn't they hear the basilisk in CoS? That's a plot-hole. No reason why Harry should have been the only one able to hear the basilisk. If that snake was talking loud enough for Harry to hear it, then everyone else should've been able to hear a hissing sound too. Not being able to speak/comprehend Parseltongue doesn't make you deaf!

I think that would be more an issue of acknowledging - or registering - what would seem like background noise. The basilisk was traveling through the pipes behind thick stone walls so the hissing would be faint. Harry noticed it because he heard it as words rather than hissing - and that's what he pointed out to Ron and Hermione. They didn't hear a "voice" or any words being spoken as Harry did. If they heard anything at all, it would have been a faint hissing noise that could easily be confused with wind blowing through the drafty castle, IMO.

Originally Posted by Quachett

Dumbledore knew Harry had to be killed because of the soul of voldemort that was in Harry not because of the prophecy.



Even JKR said Harry wa a Horcrux, albeit created by accident but steal a Hocrux. Harry would have died if there was no other Horcrux, if there was then his body may have been torn apart while at the same time destroying Voldermort's soul, Since the vessel that soul inhabitated would have been destroyed.

Actually, Jo said that Harry was not a Horcrux. Here's the quote.

PotterCast #130, 12/17/2007. MA: After we got back from Carnegie Hall, we brought back your message of how Harry is kind of not really a Horcrux. And I won't dwell too long on Horcruxes, but, I'd love to hear you talking about how he is or isn't, or wasn't. JKR: Well, I tell you-- You know what, this will not end the discussion. I know that, and you know that. But here is the thing. For convenience, I had Dumbledore say to Harry, "You were the Horcrux he never meant to make." But I think, by definition, a Horcrux has to be made intentionally. So, because Voldemort never went through the grotesque process that I imagined creates a Horcrux, with Harry, it was just that he had destabilized his soul so much that it split when he was hit by the back-firing curse. And so this part of it flies off and attaches to the only living thing in the room. A part of it flees in the very close-to-death limbo state that Voldemort then goes on and exists in. I suppose it's very close to being a Horcrux. But Harry was not-- did not become an evil object. He wasn't-- he didn't have curses upon him that the other Horcruxes had. He himself was not contaminated by carrying this bit of parasitic soul. The only time he ever felt it stirring and moving was in "Order of the Phoenix", when he himself goes through a very dark time. And there's a moment where he's looking at Dumbledore and he feels something rear like a snake inside him. And of course at those times, it's because the piece of soul inside him is feeding off his emotions. He's going through a dark time and that piece of soul is enjoying it and making its presence felt. But he doesn't know what he's feeling, of course. Also I always imagined the Sorting Hat detected the presence of that piece of soul when Harry first tried it on. Because it was strongly tempted to put him in Slytherin. So that's how I see it. Now, I know that won't end the debate, but I do think that the strict definition of Horcrux, once I write The Scottish Book, will have to be given and that the definition will be: the receptacle is prepared by dark magic to become the receptacle of a fragmented piece of soul and that that piece of soul deliberately detached from the Master Soul to act as a future safeguard or anchor to life and to safeguard against death. So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate.

That being said, it was still the same problem because Harry did have a piece of Voldemort's soul inside of him even if he wasn't contaminated by Dark Magic to put it there. He still had to die in order for that piece of soul to be destroyed. He only survived because Voldemort used his blood to regenerate his body - making Voldemort something like a Horcrux for Harry using good magic instead of Dark Magic.

Originally Posted by Quachett

to me this is were I have to disagree, this was war and this was a situation that could potentially loose them the war. Given that they discussed at length how to destroy Horcruxes and Hermione's own memory which troughout the books seems near photographic, it just doesnt add up for me that she could forget. The Horcrux was messing with them wouldnt that be enough to at least tell the others the possibility. She dared not use it but it didnt mean the others couldn't. Besides the books never say she was against it, as you quoted, she was against using it as she had no confidence in performing the spell.

As shown in the quote provided by HedwigOwl, Hermione stated on page that she knew about Fiendfyre. She didn't forget that - she made a conscious choice not to try to use that or tell Harry and Ron about it because she felt it was too dangerous. As we see with Crabbe's use of Fiendfyre, it was very dangerous and it was difficult - if not impossible - to control it. It would not have been wise or practical for the trio to attempt such a spell - particularly when everything around them was flammable. Had they attempted it, at the very least, they would have lost all of their possessions because they couldn't control the fire - at the worst, they could have caused the deaths of innocent people if they were in an area where people were nearby because they couldn't control the fire. I don't consider this a plot hole because it fits with Hermione's characterization - we are shown that she often made decisions like that without discussing it with Harry or Ron. On this occasion, I would say Hermione did the right thing.

I have always thought that Magic is Neutral, neither good nor dark, its how the wizard/witch uses it that qualifies it as dark. The dark arts are so named because they are used to inflict suffering on people, however when they are used to destoy dangerous inanimate objects they are nuetral and I think that is the case here.

In most cases, that would be true. Even the Killing curse and the Imperius curse were shown to be spells that could be used for good purposes. The killing curse could also be viewed as a more merciful way to hunt for food. The Imperius curse could be used to protect someone - as Harry did at Gringotts by making Travers hide - or to avoid a battle when time was short - as McGonagall did with the Carrows.

However, there are specific spells that we are shown that are not neutral. For example, the Cruciatus curse had no other purpose beyond torturing a person with extreme pain. Sectumsempra had no other purpose beyond slicing a person open as with a sword. The ritual used to create a Horcrux is so horrific, it made Jo's editor physically ill and she chose not to actually describe it in detail in the books because of that. Fiendfyre would fall into that category because it appears to have no purpose beyond destruction - uncontrolled, wild, dangerous destruction of everything it can consume. I can't see any possible good use for such a spell.

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

I think people cry Deus ex Machina (or however you spell it) too quickly.

Pretend it was real life. I was sending three young adults on this quest. I ensured they'd have a cell phone in-case they got separated. When they use this cell phone, is that too convenient and contrived? I was just using logic and common sense to prepare them and make sure they would be alright. Not to do so would be incredibly stupid.

What's funny is that a muggle cell-phone is really a fantastical object if you think about it. To be able to call anyone from nearly everywhere and it's portable, small and wireless. The internet is another muggle invention that's even more imaginative and amazing than most things in the wizarding world. If a wizard wrote a book about a muggle and the muggle character used the internet to find out a whole bunch of information (all the info they needed) and a cell phone to keep in touch with each other, wizard readers would call that Dues ex Machina.

If that person knows how to use a cell phone or you give them proper instruction, that would be true. However, if you give a cell phone to a person who had never even heard of them and doesn't have a clue how to operate it without giving them any instruction on how to do so and they just happen to figure it out at just the right time by accident - that would be too convenient and contrived.

That's what makes things like Ron accidentally activating the deluminator a deux ex machina. It wasn't that Dumbledore gave Ron a useful tool that they could use to find each other if they were separated for any reason - it was that Dumbledore never gave Ron any instruction on how to use it for that purpose. That's what makes it too convenient and contrived - Ron didn't have a clue how to activate that function of the deluminator, but does so by accident at just the right time completely by accident so he could be there at the right moment to save Harry's life.

Now, I do agree that not everything that gets labeled a deux ex machina actually is one. But there are quite a few in DH, IMO.

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Well, most of the time in DH, they get away from death eaters or snatchers out of pure skill, quick-thinking and being fast enough to apparate away. Then of-course Dumbledore gave them escape routes just in case. He was informed of Aberforth buying the mirror from Mundungus and informed him what it was and how it worked and to use it to keep an eye on Harry which is how Aberforth knew to send Dobby to Malfoy Manor. Dumbledore had given Ron the deluminator realizing he was the heart of the trio (from watching them grow over the years at his school) and he knew he would be able to keep the trio together in-case they ever parted ways.

Again, that is the point. It's basically the same situation as the deluminator - which I addressed above. Dumbledore told Aberforth what that mirror was and how to work it, but he never bothered to mention that to Harry. Harry never knew he had the means to communicate with the Order through Aberforth and the one time he does use it, it's an accident on Harry's part - he thinks that's Dumbledore's eye looking out and calls for help in desperation. It's too convenient and contrived because Harry was never told that Aberforth had the other mirror and could send help if he needed it.

Voldemort wanting to kill Harry himself makes sense. Voldemort not only wants this boy dead but he wants to prove to everyone (specifically after he was seemingly destroyed by a baby) that there is nothing special about this boy, that he only lived because of his mother. Harry Potter represents a hole in Voldemort's illusion of being all-powerful. Voldemort needs to eliminate this to wipe out all hope in resistance to his power. Harry Potter had become a powerful symbol of resistance to the dark lord and gave people the courage an hope to resist him. By letting one of his cronies kill Harry, he would basically be admitting he can't do it himself.

Exactly.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

As Snape pointed out in OOTP, "Time and space matter in magic". Harry and Hermione were miles away - nowhere near Ron and the deluminator. Nothing they said or did could have any effect on the deluminator itself because they were not there - Jo established that rule of magic in OOTP.

When someone says "Voldemort" the death eaters are able to travel to the location where the name was spoken. The trigger is simply saying the name. The death eaters don't have to be anywhere near you.

That doesn't sound any different to the way Ron's deluminator worked. Hermione said Ron's name, and he heard her say it and knew how to find her.

I don't think it's relevant that time and space matter, unless there's evidence that Ron was out of range for this type of spell.

[Quachett]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Harry is not good at dark magic; he is exceptionally good at Defense Against the Dark Arts. He was able to pull off a marginal crucio in DH when he was very angry, but overall he's not educated in, let alone skilled (or interested), in performing dark magic curses & spells.

It makes no sense to be good at DADA and not be good at the DA as they are in essence two sides of the same coin, u have to note Harry use of the cruciatous curse is actually quite impressive given that he had never been taught how to actually do it and then practice. He did it twice and the second time he actually did it correctly not marginally, Im sorry but it really seems like you are trying to paint Harry as white knight incapable of darkness. I never said he was educated in the dark arts how ever he is skilled enough to do them, its like McGonnagol said to Dumbledore in book 1 "...you are to noble to perform that kind of Magic..." Look at Harry's track record with the dark arts, even when performing them for the first time he actually produced them to an effective state, he used sectum sempra for the first time on malfoy and he actually did a lot of damage, Used the imperius curse again quite well considering it was his first time and the people failed to throw it off and even some death eaters had problem casting it, remember the junior minister in HBP? He might no use them or practise them but Harry is skilled enough to master even the darkest and most powerful of dark arts

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I understand the meaning of the story, but if it was completely optional all along, what was Trelawny seeing/saying? Did she make it up? Was it all her fault?

Without the prophecy nothing would have happened, but the source of the prophecy isn't explained, it just existed as a fact.

Well, I think it's up to interpretation. I personally believe the prophecy had some degree of truth to it. Harry was going to be born to two exceptional wizard and witch who had managed to defy Voldemort three times and survive, AND he had their love and he would be born as the seventh month dies, seven being the most powerfully magical number is probably what gave Harry his degree of "luck". Also, James was decedent from Ignotus Peverell one of the legendary and powerful brothers. Harry had good genes and wizarding stock and he had the love of his parents. He had enormous potential. The prophecy had some truth to it but it only came true because Voldemort decided to act on it IMO.

[ajna]

Why don't the Trio apparate inside the tent when Harry says the name of Voldemort and the Snatchers show up outside the tent?

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

As Snape pointed out in OOTP, "Time and space matter in magic". Harry and Hermione were miles away - nowhere near Ron and the deluminator. Nothing they said or did could have any effect on the deluminator itself because they were not there - Jo established that rule of magic in OOTP. As such, it had to be Ron who said or did something to activate it because the deluminator was in is possession at that time. However - as Ron told Harry and Hermione later - he didn't know what that was because he did it by accident. Dumbledore never gave him any instruction on how to use that function of the deluminator.

It matters in magic but the Deluminator was a device created by Dumbledore. It was almost like a piece of technology but with magical elements. Snape was talking about pure magic and spells. Also, I doubt Snape knew about about the Deluminator since it was a self-made object.

Ron didn't have to do anything. He heard Hermione's voice coming from it and simply clicked it and the tiny ball of light appeared and he dissapparated and it took him back to them.

I somewhat agree with you for HBP and DH, but I disagree with the previous books because Harry did make an effort to learn what he needed to know in those situations.

PS/SS and COS - the trio spent a lot of time investigating and in the library doing research to gather information. Harry paid attention to what Dumbledore told him and applied what he learned to the situations he found himself in.

POA - the major issue there was the dementors and Harry actively sought lessons with Lupin to learn how to fight dementors. As far as Sirius went, there wasn't really anything Harry could do there because his supposed "enemy" was an older, more experienced wizard. As with Voldemort, it simply wasn't possible for Harry to "catch up" and know what his enemy knew or have an equal amount of experience in such a short time frame. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have and take advantage of opportunities that present themselves.

GOF - Harry was a bit lazy with the egg clue and stubborn in waiting so long to take Cedric's advice because he was jealous due to his feelings for Cho. However, once he did figure out the clue, he put a lot of time and effort into trying to learn what he needed to know by doing research in the library. I'm more curious about why they never came across the bubble head charm in all those hours they spent researching actually. Though it's certainly possible that the books they needed had been checked out by Cedric and Fleur since they were the ones who used that charm. Same goes for the third task - Harry spent hours with Ron and Hermione doing research and practicing every defensive spell they could find that might be of use to him in the maze. After doing all that, all three of them were well ahead of their other classmates in DADA - which Hermione pointed out on page.

OOTP - the DA was very useful and, while they did put a lot of focus on the defensive magic they were supposed to be learning in class that Umbridge refused to teach them, they also went above and beyond that. Harry used the set of defensive books that Lupin and Sirius gave him for Christmas to teach the DA as well. This came up in HBP with Harry as well as Ernie pointing out that those who were in the DA already knew things being covered in DADA that year.

As such, Harry and those who were in the DA were very advanced in the subject of DADA because of all that research and practice. They were ahead of their class in terms of what they were supposed to know and be learning in class.

However, I do agree that it was a very odd decision not to continue the DA in HBP - particularly after they discovered Snape would be teaching DADA that year. Harry didn't trust Snape and often disagreed with what Snape was teaching them because of his own experiences and what he had learned on his own with the tournament and leading the DA. I was surprised that Jo didn't have them continue with the DA - if nothing else to be able to practice

.

Dumbledore appinted Snape as Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor in HBP. I'm sure Snape trained them well in every defense spell possible. As Harry said, there was no need for DA lessons because they had gotten rid of Umbridge. They had a proper teacher now.

That being said, I don't see that as an issue in regards to Harry having to fight Voldemort. As I said before, there simply was no possible way for Harry to "catch up" to Voldemort's level of knowledge or experience. Voldemort was around 70 years old, had finished Hogwarts, and spent years studying and mastering the Dark Arts. Harry couldn't do any more than he did to prepare for fighting Voldemort as far as learning defensive spells - he only had 7 years to learn where Voldemort had 60.

Where I fault Harry - and Dumbledore - was in not preparing himself in other ways for what he was about to face. One thing was pointed out on page in DH - Harry never bothered to study or learn even the most basic healing charms. He knew the one spell that Tonks had used on his nose in HBP, but that wasn't enough. Hermione comes to the rescue in that area - not only studying, but stocking up on supplies they might need for healing - but that was something that I felt Harry should have thought of and been preparing for.

Likewise, there was no study or preparation for curse-breaking. Dumbledore knew that Harry might have to utilize curse-breaking to locate the Horcruxes, but he never went over ways to do that with Harry. Harry knew that was possible after his discussions with Dumbledore and particularly his experience in the cave, but he doesn't think to prepare for that possibility - and he had access to a skilled and knowledgeable curse-breaker with Bill Weasley. That was Bill's job with Gringotts - he would have been a valuable source for the trio to tap, but they never considered it.

Mostly I fault Dumbledore for not giving Harry all the information he needed regarding Horcruxes - specifically how to destroy them and that the sword could be used for that. As I mentioned before, Dumbledore should also have gone over his own search with Harry so the trio wouldn't waste time looking in places he had already eliminated. In the end, the Horcruxes were located and destroyed through luck rather than the trio being prepared. There are a lot of issues with how that was presented, IMO.

Perhaps the sword would have been able to pierce through any curse or protection around the Horcrux? I don't know. There's also the issue where Dumbledore didn't expect the Horcruxes to be hidden so powerfully. He was surprised about the cave. I also think taking Harry to the cave was his way of initiating, of giving Harry an idea of what he might be up against. Dumbledore just underestimated the extent. He wasn't perfect.

I disagree about the sword. Dumbledore couldn't tel Harry directly because of the complications involved with earning the sword but I have already made my views clear on that.

I think that would be more an issue of acknowledging - or registering - what would seem like background noise. The basilisk was traveling through the pipes behind thick stone walls so the hissing would be faint. Harry noticed it because he heard it as words rather than hissing - and that's what he pointed out to Ron and Hermione. They didn't hear a "voice" or any words being spoken as Harry did. If they heard anything at all, it would have been a faint hissing noise that could easily be confused with wind blowing through the drafty castle, IMO.

I agree.

If that person knows how to use a cell phone or you give them proper instruction, that would be true. However, if you give a cell phone to a person who had never even heard of them and doesn't have a clue how to operate it without giving them any instruction on how to do so and they just happen to figure it out at just the right time by accident - that would be too convenient and contrived.

That's what makes things like Ron accidentally activating the deluminator a deux ex machina. It wasn't that Dumbledore gave Ron a useful tool that they could use to find each other if they were separated for any reason - it was that Dumbledore never gave Ron any instruction on how to use it for that purpose. That's what makes it too convenient and contrived - Ron didn't have a clue how to activate that function of the deluminator, but does so by accident at just the right time completely by accident so he could be there at the right moment to save Harry's life.

Now, I do agree that not everything that gets labeled a deux ex machina actually is one. But there are quite a few in DH, IMO.



Again, that is the point. It's basically the same situation as the deluminator - which I addressed above. Dumbledore told Aberforth what that mirror was and how to work it, but he never bothered to mention that to Harry. Harry never knew he had the means to communicate with the Order through Aberforth and the one time he does use it, it's an accident on Harry's part - he thinks that's Dumbledore's eye looking out and calls for help in desperation. It's too convenient and contrived because Harry was never told that Aberforth had the other mirror and could send help if he needed it.

The deluminator wasn't complicated. If anyone said Ron's name, he'd hear it coming out of it. He just had to click it.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ajna

Why don't the Trio apparate inside the tent when Harry says the name of Voldemort and the Snatchers show up outside the tent?

Deductive logic has always led me to believe that the most likely solution is that anti-apparition spells are able to be put over any location at any time, and that this would be the first thing which anyone trying to capture someone would perform.

I think this is the logical solution because otherwise, I can't imagine how any criminal on the run would ever be caught.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Quachett

It makes no sense to be good at DADA and not be good at the DA as they are in essence two sides of the same coin, u have to note Harry use of the cruciatous curse is actually quite impressive given that he had never been taught how to actually do it and then practice. He did it twice and the second time he actually did it correctly not marginally, Im sorry but it really seems like you are trying to paint Harry as white knight incapable of darkness.

In the books, the only impressive use of crucio is by Voldemort or Bellatrix. When Harry uses it, it's a very different story. Yes it causes pain, but only briefly, and it's Carrow's collision with a glass cabinet that knocks him out. Harry either doesn't or isn't able to hold the curse...because he isn't the same as Bella or Voldy who enjoy torturing people; it was marginal by comparison. The core of Harry's nature is compassion...it's what allowed him to make the conscious choice to give up his own life to safe everyone else.

Originally Posted by quachett

I never said he was educated in the dark arts how ever he is skilled enough to do them, its like McGonnagol said to Dumbledore in book 1 "...you are to noble to perform that kind of Magic..." Look at Harry's track record with the dark arts, even when performing them for the first time he actually produced them to an effective state, he used sectum sempra for the first time on malfoy and he actually did a lot of damage.

While technically not a dark curse, sectumsempra is certainly meant to cause harm -- Snape's version of using a knife via magic. But you are forgetting that Harry had no idea what it did when he used it (yes, reckless), and that he was horrified at the result to the point of feeling sick. I doubt he ever used it again. He refused to stun Shunpike because that would cause him to fall off his broom and be killed. He faced Voldemort and refused to use an AK. Technically having the possibility to perform a spell (no guarantee it's going to work) doesn't mean Harry would be good at it, much less even choose to.

Originally Posted by Quachett

Used the imperius curse again quite well considering it was his first time and the people failed to throw it off and even some death eaters had problem casting it, remember the junior minister in HBP? He might no use them or practise them but Harry is skilled enough to master even the darkest and most powerful of dark arts

Yes, but again, he didn't want to. Griphook had to convince Harry that it was necessary, almost pleading, and it was close to being too late when Harry cast it...and he had no idea if it would work.

In the case of Fiendfyre, I don't think Harry would have wanted to use it, once Hermione told him how dangerous it would be, and the damage it could cause not only to themselves but possibly others as well.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Deductive logic has always led me to believe that the most likely solution is that anti-apparition spells are able to be put over any location at any time, and that this would be the first thing which anyone trying to capture someone would perform.

I think this is the logical solution because otherwise, I can't imagine how any criminal on the run would ever be caught.

Good logic, although you would think they would have at least tried to.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

When someone says "Voldemort" the death eaters are able to travel to the location where the name was spoken. The trigger is simply saying the name. The death eaters don't have to be anywhere near you.

That doesn't sound any different to the way Ron's deluminator worked. Hermione said Ron's name, and he heard her say it and knew how to find her.

I don't think it's relevant that time and space matter, unless there's evidence that Ron was out of range for this type of spell.

Voldemort turned his name into a spell - anyone who said "Voldemort" was casting that spell on their current location without being aware of it. The person at the location did the spell and it worked on the location they were at. That's not the same thing as the suggestion that Hermione could activate the deluminator while it was in Ron's possession from a location miles away so he could use it to find them. Harry saying Voldemort's name in the tent didn't cause the Taboo to break the protective enchantments around the Burrow as well - it only effected the location Harry was in because time and space matter in magic. Hermione wasn't anywhere near the deluminator and Ron's name was not a spell regardless. If it were, then anyone who said his name would activate that function of the deluminator and they would have been hearing conversations through it from the start as the Weasleys would have been talking about all three of them at times. That didn't happen because saying Ron's name never had anything to do with it, IMO.

What we are shown with Ron's description is that he was using his wand while fiddling with the radio and something he said was the incantation necessary to activate the deluminator. He was thinking about Harry and Hermione when he did it so he heard them talking and could then use the deluminator to find their location. That is the simplest and most likely explanation for what happened, IMO. As established in OOTP, Ron had the deluminator in his possession so he had to be the one who activated it because time and space matter in magic. Hermione saying Ron's name was nothing more than a coincidence - a romantic coincidence all things considered, but still a coincidence, IMO.

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

Dumbledore appinted Snape as Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor in HBP. I'm sure Snape trained them well in every defense spell possible. As Harry said, there was no need for DA lessons because they had gotten rid of Umbridge. They had a proper teacher now.

Harry and Ernie didn't seem to agree. Regardless, extra practice in defense would not be a bad thing - particularly when you're at war.

The deluminator wasn't complicated. If anyone said Ron's name, he'd hear it coming out of it. He just had to click it.

As I said above, if that were true, they would have been hearing conversations between members of Ron's family and possibly even the Order from the start because they would have said Ron's name - especially Molly and Arthur. Ron's name had nothing to do with it from what we're shown. Hermione wasn't anywhere near the deluminator so she could not cast a spell to activate it - time and space matter in magic. Only Ron could cast a spell on the deluminator at that time because it was in his possession.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Deductive logic has always led me to believe that the most likely solution is that anti-apparition spells are able to be put over any location at any time, and that this would be the first thing which anyone trying to capture someone would perform.

I think this is the logical solution because otherwise, I can't imagine how any criminal on the run would ever be caught.

That is certainly possible and it makes sense that the Taboo would include an anti-apparition jinx to prevent whoever said Voldemort's name from escaping. However, that doesn't actually seem to be the case from what we're shown. Kingsley managed to get away and I had the impression that he apparated to do so. Though that could also have inspired them to add an anti-apparition jinx to the mix.

Regardless, we can't say if that was actually the case because the trio didn't even attempt to apparate in that situation. They did so later, in Hogsmeade, and Harry described what it felt like to have apparition blocked. When the snatchers showed up, they didn't even consider apparating.

Part of that would be due to panic and I think that's understandable, but I also think the prospect of leaving everything behind for the snatchers to go through was something they wanted to avoid as well. As it was, the snatchers went through the tent, but they were more interested in figuring out who they had captured than examining what was in the tent closely. They may have had other things out that could have been used to figure out what they were doing after all.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Quachett

It makes no sense to be good at DADA and not be good at the DA as they are in essence two sides of the same coin

That is not at all carried through by the books. Seems to me that that's like saying that it makes no sense to be good at throwing a frisbee but not catching it (or vice versa).

The proper and correct use of much dark magic seems to require one to be a dark person, I would take Horcruxes as an example, and thus for someone who isn't a dark person, it would be next to impossible.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Hermione wasn't anywhere near the deluminator and Ron's name was not a spell regardless. If it were, then anyone who said his name would activate that function of the deluminator and they would have been hearing conversations through it from the start as the Weasleys would have been talking about all three of them at times. That didn't happen because saying Ron's name never had anything to do with it, IMO.

Dumbledore turned Ron's name into a spell that would activate the deluminator only if Hermione (or presumably Harry) said Ron's name, and only if Ron was out range. Ron was with them since he got it, and there would be no point in a deluminator activating if it was already at the location.

The trace is another example of where an event gives away a location. It is only triggered by specific people, and the ministry knows where they are within minutes if someone does magic near them.

The deluminator didn't take Ron through the enchantments, he had to wait for one of them to show themselves. The enchantments stop him seeing them, not them seeing him.

Time and space do matter in magic, so the power of a spell is not infinite. If I were Voldemort, I would put the taboo on undesireables 1 to 100, which would be enough to stop anyone using his name in case they made that list.

[Quachett]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

In the books, the only impressive use of crucio is by Voldemort or Bellatrix. When Harry uses it, it's a very different story. Yes it causes pain, but only briefly, and it's Carrow's collision with a glass cabinet that knocks him out. Harry either doesn't or isn't able to hold the curse...because he isn't the same as Bella or Voldy who enjoy torturing people; it was marginal by comparison. The core of Harry's nature is compassion...it's what allowed him to make the conscious choice to give up his own life to safe everyone else.

I dont get your point here, as I was saying Harry's use of it was the first and second time, and to do what he did seems impressive for someone who was never trained. As I said if you read my Post Harry can do the dark arts but wont do them as he is not evil. There is a difference. Your argument is almost trying to say he is so good he is incapable of evil. Look if you read DH without a biased eye Harry's version of that curse was no different from Voldemort's or Bella's it was just shorter. Niether Voldemort nor Bella ever tortured someone into unconciousness.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

While technically not a dark curse, sectumsempra is certainly meant to cause harm -- Snape's version of using a knife via magic. But you are forgetting that Harry had no idea what it did when he used it (yes, reckless), and that he was horrified at the result to the point of feeling sick. I doubt he ever used it again. He refused to stun Shunpike because that would cause him to fall off his broom and be killed. He faced Voldemort and refused to use an AK. Technically having the possibility to perform a spell (no guarantee it's going to work) doesn't mean Harry would be good at it, much less even choose to.

Even Snape the inventor said to Harry "...I dint know your knew such dark Magic...". Its a dark art period, and what kind of argument is he can perform a dark art if he doesnt know its one? He used it again against the inferi. He showed time and again that he could if he wanted perform the dark arts.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Yes, but again, he didn't want to. Griphook had to convince Harry that it was necessary, almost pleading, and it was close to being too late when Harry cast it...and he had no idea if it would work.

In the case of Fiendfyre, I don't think Harry would have wanted to use it, once Hermione told him how dangerous it would be, and the damage it could cause not only to themselves but possibly others as well.

Again I am not talking about harry's willingness to use the dark arts Im talking about his talent at them. Like I said your argument seem routed in the fact that you cant bare the knowledge of Harry being good at the dark arts or even using the dark arts. Here is the thing He is an Auror after the war which means he is going to learn the dark arts, Like snape said the dark arts are many and varied and are constanly changing, you havae to know them and be able to perform them to effectively know how to deffend against them. In the end its a simple matter of him not choosing to use them not saying he cant do them because he is good.