Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v3

[Quachett]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

When Voldemort used the curse on Harry in the Forbidden Forest it didn't work at all - Harry felt no pain whatsoever - so that's not a good example. The duration of the curse is significant because it goes towards intent. There is a big difference between being angry at someone and wanting to hurt them and enjoying the act of torturing someone whether you're angry with them or not. Harry wanted to hurt Bellatrix because she killed Sirius - he was grieving and very angry. But he didn't have it in him to actually torture Bellatrix with the curse and he wasn't really powerful enough to properly use that curse at the time anyway. He was angry with Amycus and wanted to hurt him for spitting on McGonagall - as well as his plan to set Voldemort on the students in Ravenclaw house to save himself and his sister - but he didn't have it in him to torture Amycus. The difference between just hurting someone and actually torturing them is in the duration of the curse and the power behind it from what we're shown.

The curse worked perfectly except for th pain as the wand refused to hurt its master. everything else was correct the reaction of both the death eaters and Voldemort, the people who have used this spell so well they would tell if it did not work correctly, shows that there was nothing wrong with the spell, thus the only anormaly was the pain not coming not the overall effect of the spell. Here is the discription of Harry's spell "...the death eater was lifted of his feet, he WRITHED, through the air like a drowning man, thrushing and howling in pain..." and harry said "I see what Bellatrix mearnt... You need to really mean it..." the discription of the spell and Harry's words all point to a perfect Cruciatus curse. In GoF Voldemort used the curse on that death eater and on Harry roughly the same duration as Harry in DH, the same is true for Bella in OotP on Neville. Harry said "I see what Bellatrix mearnt, you have to really mean it" and Bellatrix told him how to perform the curse correctly which means he performed it according to the instructions Bella gave him. The book never talks about how his mental state differed from Bella's or Voldemort in that moment, He might have done it because of the points you said but the desire to hurt, and really meaning it were there since he remarks on what Bella said.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

It's not just intent that matters with the Unforgivable curses - power matters as well. Harry was never all that powerful - that was one of the significant points of the story. He's just an ordinary kid thrown into extraordinary circumstances that force him to do things that his peers didn't have to. I think the best example of that was the patronus charm. The adults tended to make a big deal out of Harry being able to do the patronus charm at such a young age, but we learn in OOTP that this was merely the adults underestimating what the students were capable of because the students in the DA were able to learn and master the patronus charm - some more quickly than Harry did. That comes back in DH when members of the DA come to the trio's rescue by sending their corporeal patronuses after the dementors. The only reason that Harry learned the patronus charm at the age of 13 and his peers did not was that his peers were never given the opportunity to do so - Lupin chose to give Harry private lessons for that. From what we are shown, if Lupin had done that in class, a lot of the other students would have been able to do the patronus charm as well - some would be even more proficient at it than Harry because they picked it up more quickly and were not as strongly effected by the dementors as Harry was. I think things like this emphasize the point Dumbledore made in HBP - age often underestimates youth because they forget what it's like to be young.

Well this not the thread for this but for me the series would be completely illogical if Harry is just ordinary. There are just to many things that to me implied power for them to make sense otherwise Harry's courage and brevary would be highly questionable.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Actually, Dumbledore said Harry had two qualities that Slytherin prized in his handpicked students. The ability to speak Parseltongue - his own gift - and "a certain disregard for rules". Neither of those qualities were actually requirements for being sorted into Slytherin. Parseltongue was a rare gift and - as Jo said - there were no teachers available who could teach the language so the number of people who could actually speak that language was very small. Having "a certain disregard for rules" was a quality seen in students in all four houses, but was not a requirement for any of them.

Actually dumbledore said "Listen Harry, you happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand picked students; His own very rare gift, parsletongue, resourcefulness, detemination, a certain disregard for rules..." he then end by replying Harry "...Exactly..., which makes you different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truely are far more than our abilities...". It was Harry's choice that made him a Gryfindor as he had qualities for both houses. The major difference between Slytherins and Gryifindors seems to be choice, they are both brave, bot resourceful, both intelligent, both have a disregard for rules but in the end its the choice they make in implimanting those qualities that separates them. Slytherins usually chose these qualities if they have something to gain or nothing to loose wereas Gryfindors tend to do it in the name of honour.

[BurrowGhoul]

Originally Posted by SeriousSirius

Thats also probably why he didn't tell Snape that he was possessing Quirrel. Which is why Snape killed Quirrel.

Snape didn't kill Quirrell.

[SeriousSirius]

My mistake I haven't read the first book in 5 years...

[leah49]

Originally Posted by BenGerman

I just got done with the first novel in the series a couple weeks back, and noticed some stuff I hadn't before. Hopefully someone can help me out here. Sorry if some of the stuff has been mentioned before.


*Snape was working very hard to protect Harry in the Quidditch match against Slytherin in which Quirrel was trying to curse Harry off of his broom, and Quirrel knew this (he told Harry when they met in front of the Mirror of Erised). So if Quirrel knew this, than Voldemort knew it too. Wouldn't Voldemort have been suspicious as to why Snape was trying to protect Harry?

That's a good question. Like others thought Snape was harming Harry maybe Voldemort did, too. He wasn't looking at what Snape was actually doing. He was under a turban, so maybe he didn't even know Snape was doing anything, just that Quirrell was fighting resistance?

*I recall a lot of discussion about Dumbledore announcing that he didn't "need a cloak to become invisible". If I'm not mistaken, nothing ever came of this, correct?

Not directly, but perhaps the Disillusionment Charm?

Originally Posted by Quachett

I have used this argument to argue Harry's power before hand but i wonder if its an inconsistency or something. During the final show down's dialogue, Harry reveals not only to dumbledore but to everybody present that he was the master of the elder wand, and even went so far as to tell everyone that this was the most powerful wand in existance. I have usually pointed this as one of the reasons I belive Harry is increadibly powerful because of the implications of defeat but his is not the thread for that. My question is thus why did Harry Divalge such dangerous infomation knowing full well that this was going to be a duel or encounter that will go down in history and will be talked of for years and centuries to come. This then means the wand's were abouts was just made public and every power hungry wizard knows were to find it

I think he had to tell Voldemort and if that meant letting others know then so be it.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by SeriousSirius

I have a question about the summoning charm. Whenever they need something they say Accio [insert object name here] but would the summoning charm work if the summoner used too general of a term? I feel like a lot of times when people summoned things they used general terms, and got specific results.

Hermione explained that to Harry in GOF. You have to concentrate on the specific item you're trying to summon and the location it is in.

Originally Posted by glacevenor

To call him not all that powerful would be an overstatement. He was capable, yes. But it wouldn't be fair to compare it with the Patronus charm because the Patronus charm requires a happy memory and Harry had an unfortunate lack of it. Strength comes only from the Unforgivable curses and creative spells. There is no weak stunning jinx and a strong one. A Stunning jinx performs its job if the word is said true and the wand movements are alright. But the Patronus charm can be performed irrespective of age, we can all understand. It requires a happy memory and two words to utter.

Harry didn't have as many happy memories as others did and the dementors did have a stronger effect on him than his peers because he also had horrors in his past that they didn't. However, at that point, Harry did have several happy memories and admitted to himself that a large part of his difficulty in learning the charm was due to the fact that part of him wanted to hear his mother's voice - which only happened when the dementors were near him. Harry overcame that obstacle and, after seeing himself do the charm because of the time turner, he had no trouble with it.

I think that was the purpose of including the DA learning the patronus charm in OOTP. It demonstrated that the charm was not something that students couldn't learn - as the adults around Harry seemed to believe. Harry was singled out because of circumstance and got a lot of credit for things that his peers could do just as well or better than he could. He even got a bonus point for being able to do the patronus charm on his OWL. The other 27 members of the DA could also do the charm, but did not get a bonus point because none of the adults knew they could do the charm at the time. Harry wasn't more powerful than his peers - he simply had opportunities that they did not because of the circumstances he was in.

Maybe, he was talking about a very powerful Disillusionment charm. A powerful one can easily shield him from any surrounding and last for howmuchever long he wishes it for. The cloak, also a possibility. But Dumbledore never wanted the Cloak to 'use' it. He wanted, as you say, to merely examine it as an artifact of the Hallows he was very much interested in.

Dumbledore was talking about the Disillusionment charm - Harry told Ron and Hermione in DH that Dumbledore could perform a Disillusionment charm powerful enough to make him invisible. That raised the question of why Dumbledore had the cloak when James and Lily were killed. He didn't need an Invisibility cloak for himself so there had to be another reason. Harry discovered that the reason was Dumbledore wanted to examine the cloak after he realized it was one of the Hallows.

If that was the case, why did Snape have to stop Quirrel? Quirrel attempted to kill Harry only under the orders of the Voldemort inside him. If that was Voldemort's intention, why would he appreciate Snape stopping him? What was the need to attempt on Harry's life if in the end, he was going to trust Snape in gaining Dumbledore on his side by preventing that attempt?

Snape didn't stop Quirrell - Harry did. Snape was suspicious of Quirrell and confronted him regarding his attempt to steal the stone, but he was acting on Dumbledore's orders when he did so. Voldemort did not reveal himself to Snape because he wasn't sure who he could trust at the time. That enabled Snape to claim that he didn't know and would have helped Voldemort if he had known.

The same is true for the attempt to kill Harry. Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders and - as far as Voldemort knew - was unaware that Voldemort was behind all of that. As such, Snape could claim he would have done things differently if Voldemort had revealed himself. Likewise, even Quirrell acknowledged that Snape's countercurse was ineffective and wasn't going to prevent him from killing Harry. It was Hermione who stopped Quirrell from killing Harry during the Quidditch match - not Snape. That would also enable Snape to tell Voldemort that he was only trying to make it appear that he was protecting Harry so Dumbledore would continue to trust him because he didn't want to go to Azkaban. Snape could easily tell Voldemort that, if Hermione had not intervened by breaking Quirrell's eye contact, Harry would have died - which was true. Even Quirrell acknowledged that while Voldemort was possessing him.

Voldemort couldn't hold those things against Snape because he made the choice not to reveal himself to Snape at the time. Snape was able to provide reasonable, logical reasons for his actions that Voldemort could understand. The benefit to all of that - from Voldemort's perspective - was that Snape was firmly entrenched at Hogwarts with Dumbledore's complete trust so Snape could continue his role as a spy easily as well as pass along information about Dumbledore's actions and plans during those years that Voldemort had been gone.

Originally Posted by canismajoris

That may be, yet they did and the preparations Dumbledore made on the chance they went there worked out.

Not because of anything Dumbledore did. That is the sticking point for me. Dumbledore had no part in them choosing to go to Grimmauld Place. His portrait could take advantage of that - specifically with Hermione choosing to put Phineas Nigelus' portrait in her bag - but that was not something that Dumbledore planned or influenced as far as the text shows. That was just another fluke that worked out to Harry's advantage in the end.

The odds were against this, yes, and yet Snape does manage to twice. How can the actual results be less meaningful than your estimation of the probabilities?

Because, again, the results had nothing to do with Dumbledore's plans or his actions before he died. It was a fluke that enabled Snape to get the sword to Harry - Dumbledore had not part in that at all. As I said above, his portrait was able to take advantage of Hermione putting Phineas' portrait in her bag - which was also a direct contradiction to Jo's statement that portraits could not think for themselves - but that had nothing to do with the plans Dumbledore set in motion and the actions he took before he died.

It was even more of a fluke that Harry just happened to be there when Snape died and that Voldemort just happened to choose to have Nagini kill Snape instead of using the killing curse so he would die instantly. Dumbledore had no part in that and it occurred in spite of his plans rather than because of them.

If I ask my son to start the car for me, but don't give him the keys or tell him where the keys are, then I failed to give him what he needed in order to successfully start the car. It doesn't matter if my husband comes along and hands over his keys to the car so our son can start it because that doesn't change the fact that I did not give my son what he needed to do so. Dumbledore did not give the trio or Snape what they needed in order to succeed. The fact that they got lucky with others giving them what they needed does not change the fact that Dumbledore did not, IMO.

I don't believe the odds were against that. A little critical thinking on their part and this could have been easily discovered. Surely Dumbledore can be forgiven for assuming they would figure this out, since they ought to have at least wondered about it.

I have to disagree because it had nothing to do with critical thinking and the trio did try to figure out why Dumbledore wanted Harry to have the sword. They couldn't figure it out because they didn't have all the information they needed to do so. Simply put, it was not possible for them to know or figure out that the sword could be used to destroy Horcruxes without someone else telling them or at least pointing them towards a source that would enable them to discover that goblin made armor imbibed that which strengthened it. Even Hermione with all of her extra reading and studying did not know that. Dumbledore should have told Harry that the sword could be used to destroy Horcruxes because it had imbibed basilisk venom before he died. Assuming that Harry or his friends would already know that was careless and irresponsible - just as relying on them to find out through luck was careless and irresponsible.

Likewise, Dumbledore chose to hide the sword in a place where Harry would never find it on his own and Snape - the only other person who knew where it was - had no means of contacting Harry - not to mention that Harry did not trust Snape. Even when the trio did find out that the sword could be used to destroy Horcruxes, it didn't do them any good because they had no idea where the sword was or where to look for it - and nobody they could ask. That was very poorly constructed, IMO.

Harry would never have known that the sword could be used to destroy Horcruxes if they hadn't just happened to overhear that conversation with the goblins because he had no reason to think that the sword could be used for that. Hermione had found out how to destroy Horcruxes and damaging them with a sword wasn't on the list. They had to be damaged beyond magical repair and, as far as the trio knew, any damage inflicted by Gryffindor's sword could be repaired using magic. Likewise, they never would have gotten the sword if Harry hadn't just happened to ask Hermione where they were while she had her bag open so Phineas could hear her answer. Dumbledore had no part in that because neither of those things happened - or could have happened - as a result of his plans or actions before he died. They happened in spite of Dumbledore's plans - not because of them.

Unless you have information I do not have about the exact mechanism of the deluminator, I don't believe either of us can argue about how it should or shouldn't have worked at any given moment.

Based on the rules of magic that Jo established, Ron had to do something to activate the deluminator so he could use it to find Harry and Hermione. He did so completely by accident and never knew what he did to activate it so that was not something he could repeat. Dumbledore did not give them any instruction on how to use the deluminator.

That was addressed on page as well - when they first got those objects from Scrimgeour as well as when Ron returned and explained that he had no idea why it had worked then and not at any other time.

I'm still puzzling over this claim. Dumbledore presented to the trio a variety of means to destroy the Horcruxes. He didn't spell out every single detail of everything he had in mind, because how could he have? The items and plans he laid out were there in the event they should become useful, and nearly all of them did, rather uncannily. The unwritten suggestion is, rather obviously to me, that Dumbledore simply didn't know how Harry's quest would go, and trying to predict every single bit of information that would be useful could easily devolve into a fool's errand, and it might even have led Harry in irrelevant directions.

What means did Dumbledore provide? He didn't give Harry the sword or even tell him that the sword could be used to destroy Horcruxes. He did not ensure that Harry would have the means to get that information or the sword on his own. He didn't give Harry the books or the information they contained. He had no part in Hermione choosing to summon those books. He did not give them basilisk fangs. Dumbledore did not give them anything but obscure clues with no means to figure out what those clues meant. In other words, he gave them nothing.

Dumbledore knew what Harry had to do because he asked Harry to do it. He knew what information and tools Harry would need. There was a way for Dumbledore to ensure that Harry had what he needed. He should have given the trio those things as well as explained why before he died. There is no plausible reason for him not to have done that, IMO. Dumbledore made the choice to send the trio out on that mission so it was his responsibility to ensure that they had everything they needed in order to succeed in that mission before he died. Dumbledore did not do that. He relied entirely on luck and the trio succeeded in spite of his plans - not because of them.

The bottom line is, what you're asking Dumbledore retroactively to have done would not have been guaranteed to help Harry at all, because the consequences of Dumbledore's having done so are unpredictable as well.

What consequences? Dumbledore giving Harry the sword before he died had no negative consequences because nobody would have known he did so. That could only be positive because Harry would have known how to destroy a Horcrux and had the means to do so from the start. Same goes for the other objects he should have given them personally before he died. Nobody would have known but the trio and understanding how to use those objects could only result in positive consequences. Ron would not have been separated from them for so long because he would have known how to use the deluminator to find them.

I'm not saying that Dumbledore should have done anything retroactively. I'm saying he should have those things himself before he died - in which case, it never would have been a problem because Harry would have had the information and the tools he needed to succeed before he ever started out. That was what Dumbledore should have done from the start because he chose to give that assignment to the trio.

Originally Posted by Quachett

The curse worked perfectly except for th pain as the wand refused to hurt its master. everything else was correct the reaction of both the death eaters and Voldemort, the people who have used this spell so well they would tell if it did not work correctly, shows that there was nothing wrong with the spell, thus the only anormaly was the pain not coming not the overall effect of the spell. Here is the discription of Harry's spell "...the death eater was lifted of his feet, he WRITHED, through the air like a drowning man, thrushing and howling in pain..." and harry said "I see what Bellatrix mearnt... You need to really mean it..." the discription of the spell and Harry's words all point to a perfect Cruciatus curse. In GoF Voldemort used the curse on that death eater and on Harry roughly the same duration as Harry in DH, the same is true for Bella in OotP on Neville. Harry said "I see what Bellatrix mearnt, you have to really mean it" and Bellatrix told him how to perform the curse correctly which means he performed it according to the instructions Bella gave him. The book never talks about how his mental state differed from Bella's or Voldemort in that moment, He might have done it because of the points you said but the desire to hurt, and really meaning it were there since he remarks on what Bella said.

Harry got the basic mechanics of the curse right - I never said otherwise. The difference between Harry's use of it compared to people like Voldemort and Bellatrix was the extent of the pain he caused - the duration and intent. Cutting someone causes pain and that is a method that can be used in torture, but a single cut does not qualify as torture just because it hurts or even because someone does it because they're angry and want to hurt whoever made them angry. That's the difference with Harry. He caused Amycus pain because he was angry and wanted to hurt him, but he did not torture him because the pain was brief and ended quickly when Harry tossed him back towards the wall because he was knocked out. Harry's actions were the equivalent of a single cut - Voldemort and Bellatrix would keep cutting the person to torture them because they enjoyed hurting people. Harry didn't enjoy it and couldn't bring himself to use the curse as it was intended to be used for torture - which would involve repeated use with extended duration to cause as much pain as possible. All Harry could bring himself to do - even in anger - was cause a brief moment of pain and then knock Amycus out.

Well this not the thread for this but for me the series would be completely illogical if Harry is just ordinary. There are just to many things that to me implied power for them to make sense otherwise Harry's courage and brevary would be highly questionable.

I think that was the point of the series actually. You don't have to be super powerful in order to have courage. Harry was just an ordinary boy forced into extraordinary situations by circumstances that were beyond his control. He wasn't the most intelligent student in his year. He wasn't the quickest to pick up spells or even the best at using spells. The best that could be said about Harry was that he was slightly above average because his experiences forced him to learn things that his peers did not. Harry didn't need to be super powerful in order to have courage and succeed. He succeeded because he was not alone - he had help and he utilized that help.

Neville is another example of that. He was not the most intelligent or the most powerful. He could barely set a cauldron up the right way and was clumsy and forgetful on top of it. But that didn't prevent him from having courage and doing what needed to be done. Like Harry, Neville had people to help him and he utilized that. That was what Voldemort could never understand. All his efforts towards gaining power didn't help him succeed in the end because he preferred to either act alone or use minions that were easily controlled by fear. Harry wasn't interested in being the most powerful wizard in the world - he just wanted to survive and live a normal life. Basically, the line they added to the movie says it best - Harry survived because he had something to live for. Voldemort didn't because, even surrounded by his minions, he was alone.

Actually dumbledore said "Listen Harry, you happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand picked students; His own very rare gift, parsletongue, resourcefulness, detemination, a certain disregard for rules..." he then end by replying Harry "...Exactly..., which makes you different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truely are far more than our abilities...". It was Harry's choice that made him a Gryfindor as he had qualities for both houses. The major difference between Slytherins and Gryifindors seems to be choice, they are both brave, bot resourceful, both intelligent, both have a disregard for rules but in the end its the choice they make in implimanting those qualities that separates them. Slytherins usually chose these qualities if they have something to gain or nothing to loose wereas Gryfindors tend to do it in the name of honour.

Dumbledore also said that Harry's choices demonstrated that he belonged in Gryffindor - which was further emphasized by Gryffindor's sword presenting itself to him. The sword would only present itself to a true Gryffindor. The qualities that Dumbledore referred to were not requirements for being sorted into Slytherin. Harry didn't really have any of those. He wasn't particularly ambitious - specifically not power hungry as prized by Salazar Slytherin. He did not believe that the ends justified the means. He could be cunning, but that alone wasn't enough to say he belonged in Slytherin.

The point of Dumbledore's speech was that Harry's choices proved that he did not belong in Slytherin, but was a true Gryffindor, IMO. Harry didn't choose to be sorted into Gryffindor. He chose "not Slytherin" - which demonstrated that he did not belong in Slytherin because he continued to choose "not Slytherin" even while the Sorting Hat tested him by telling him that Slytherin could help him on his way to greatness. Harry wasn't interested in that and his choice demonstrated to the Sorting Hat that he did not belong in Slytherin.

As Jo explained, the only reason the Sorting Hat even considered the possibility was that it sensed that piece of Voldemort's soul in Harry and that confused it. Basically, it was sensing two completely opposite personalities and it was confused as to which personality was actually Harry's. That's why it tested Harry - to figure out which personality was Harry's.

Dumbledore wasn't going to discuss that with Harry in COS. It's not entirely clear when Dumbledore realized that Harry had a piece of Voldemort's soul inside him, but the events of COS certainly played a part in confirming that. Dumbledore made the choice not to tell Harry about that or what it meant for Harry's future. He reassured Harry by explaining how his own choices proved that he was a true Gryffindor and used the sword presenting itself to Harry as confirmation of that.

[BenGerman]

Thanks for answering all my questions everyone

[Quachett]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Harry got the basic mechanics of the curse right - I never said otherwise. The difference between Harry's use of it compared to people like Voldemort and Bellatrix was the extent of the pain he caused - the duration and intent. Cutting someone causes pain and that is a method that can be used in torture, but a single cut does not qualify as torture just because it hurts or even because someone does it because they're angry and want to hurt whoever made them angry. That's the difference with Harry. He caused Amycus pain because he was angry and wanted to hurt him, but he did not torture him because the pain was brief and ended quickly when Harry tossed him back towards the wall because he was knocked out. Harry's actions were the equivalent of a single cut - Voldemort and Bellatrix would keep cutting the person to torture them because they enjoyed hurting people. Harry didn't enjoy it and couldn't bring himself to use the curse as it was intended to be used for torture - which would involve repeated use with extended duration to cause as much pain as possible. All Harry could bring himself to do - even in anger - was cause a brief moment of pain and then knock Amycus out.

Were in the book does it say Harry's Curse caused less pain? longevity of the tourture is a testament to the evil in Bella and Voldemort not the intent of the curse. The curse is designed to cause pain period. How it is used is merely the casters manifestation of thier dark side. My point was Harry performed the curse correctly showing that he has a dark side but he fights it and ultimately the good in him prevails. Him not torturing Amycus again is besides the point and irrelavent. The initial act is enough to show that in some circumstances Harry can and will use dark arts and thus my point tht Hermione had no right to withold info on Fiendfyre being able to destroy Horcruxes as Harry might have wanted to try it out. Im not saying he was gonna im just saying he had the right to decide for himself than just an assumption.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I think that was the point of the series actually. You don't have to be super powerful in order to have courage. Harry was just an ordinary boy forced into extraordinary situations by circumstances that were beyond his control. He wasn't the most intelligent student in his year. He wasn't the quickest to pick up spells or even the best at using spells. The best that could be said about Harry was that he was slightly above average because his experiences forced him to learn things that his peers did not. Harry didn't need to be super powerful in order to have courage and succeed. He succeeded because he was not alone - he had help and he utilized that help.

Neville is another example of that. He was not the most intelligent or the most powerful. He could barely set a cauldron up the right way and was clumsy and forgetful on top of it. But that didn't prevent him from having courage and doing what needed to be done. Like Harry, Neville had people to help him and he utilized that. That was what Voldemort could never understand. All his efforts towards gaining power didn't help him succeed in the end because he preferred to either act alone or use minions that were easily controlled by fear. Harry wasn't interested in being the most powerful wizard in the world - he just wanted to survive and live a normal life. Basically, the line they added to the movie says it best - Harry survived because he had something to live for. Voldemort didn't because, even surrounded by his minions, he was alone.

Again like I said this is not the thread, The angle of a less powerful heroe is intriguing but unfortunately this was not the plot to have such a heroe. I have said this before and I'll say it again, there is a thin line between Courage and idiocy, a thin line between bravery and ignorance. This plot is for either a powerful Heroe who is still learning about his power and gaining experience, if the Heroe is not powerful, then the plot makes the Heroe an ignorant idiot whose continued survival is disguised in those great qualities while in reality, he is simply the protagonist that doesnt die because the story must continue. I have asked this question before if he is not powerful, then why did he insist on trying to go and save pple time and again without recruiting powerful allies to help him? Its one thing to walk into the valley when you are the last man standing, its another to walk when there are still better options to get reinforcements but you ignore them because you always think tht you and you alone know better, that is being impulsive, ignorant and idiotic. If you want my reasons why I say he is powerful then send me an owl and I'll post my reasons in the appropriate thread.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Dumbledore also said that Harry's choices demonstrated that he belonged in Gryffindor - which was further emphasized by Gryffindor's sword presenting itself to him. The sword would only present itself to a true Gryffindor. The qualities that Dumbledore referred to were not requirements for being sorted into Slytherin. Harry didn't really have any of those. He wasn't particularly ambitious - specifically not power hungry as prized by Salazar Slytherin. He did not believe that the ends justified the means. He could be cunning, but that alone wasn't enough to say he belonged in Slytherin.

The point of Dumbledore's speech was that Harry's choices proved that he did not belong in Slytherin, but was a true Gryffindor, IMO. Harry didn't choose to be sorted into Gryffindor. He chose "not Slytherin" - which demonstrated that he did not belong in Slytherin because he continued to choose "not Slytherin" even while the Sorting Hat tested him by telling him that Slytherin could help him on his way to greatness. Harry wasn't interested in that and his choice demonstrated to the Sorting Hat that he did not belong in Slytherin.

As Jo explained, the only reason the Sorting Hat even considered the possibility was that it sensed that piece of Voldemort's soul in Harry and that confused it. Basically, it was sensing two completely opposite personalities and it was confused as to which personality was actually Harry's. That's why it tested Harry - to figure out which personality was Harry's.

Dumbledore wasn't going to discuss that with Harry in COS. It's not entirely clear when Dumbledore realized that Harry had a piece of Voldemort's soul inside him, but the events of COS certainly played a part in confirming that. Dumbledore made the choice not to tell Harry about that or what it meant for Harry's future. He reassured Harry by explaining how his own choices proved that he was a true Gryffindor and used the sword presenting itself to Harry as confirmation of that.

I sadi this Harry is in Gryfindor by choice and is a Gryfindor by choice. He could have had been a Slytherin if he had chosen. Having qualities that suit him as a Slytherin doesnt make him any less a Gryfindor. He is a True Gryfindor because when he had a choice to choose he chose Gryfindor. Harry had all those qualitties of Slytherins he showed them time and again, problem is most people see Malfoy and think all slytherins are Malfoys which they arent. Which Quality are you saying Harry did not have? the point of Dumbledore's speech was that he belonged in Gryfindor not that he didnt belong in Slytherin.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Quachett

I sadi this Harry is in Gryfindor by choice and is a Gryfindor by choice. He could have had been a Slytherin if he had chosen. Having qualities that suit him as a Slytherin doesnt make him any less a Gryfindor. He is a True Gryfindor because when he had a choice to choose he chose Gryfindor. Harry had all those qualitties of Slytherins he showed them time and again, problem is most people see Malfoy and think all slytherins are Malfoys which they arent. Which Quality are you saying Harry did not have? the point of Dumbledore's speech was that he belonged in Gryfindor not that he didnt belong in Slytherin.

A clarification about this point. Harry never mentioned Gryffindor to the Sorting Hat. He repeated 'not Slytherin, not Slytherin', and after the Sorting Hat's comments about Harry doing well in Slytherin it put him in Gryffindor.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Dumbledore knew what Harry had to do because he asked Harry to do it. He knew what information and tools Harry would need. There was a way for Dumbledore to ensure that Harry had what he needed. He should have given the trio those things as well as explained why before he died. There is no plausible reason for him not to have done that, IMO. Dumbledore made the choice to send the trio out on that mission so it was his responsibility to ensure that they had everything they needed in order to succeed in that mission before he died. Dumbledore did not do that. He relied entirely on luck and the trio succeeded in spite of his plans - not because of them.

Dumbledore didn't send anyone out on a mission or know what tools they would need. He only knew how many horcruxes there were when Harry got Slughorn's memory, and moment he knew he explained everything he had already found out to Harry, told him what he thought the horcruxes were, and promised Harry would go with him to destroy the next horcrux. He told Harry that the diary had been a horcrux, and Harry already knew how he destroyed it.

Dumbledore's intention at that time was to look for the Horcruxes himself, and they should both destroy them together. Dumbledore thought he could pick the day he would die. Any preparations he made like writing his will, or giving aberforth the mirror, or giving snape a message for Harry, were for backup, in case things went wrong. There was no point giving Harry the sword, it was there in Dumbledore's office so they could use it any time they wanted - Dumbledore showed Harry where it was.

When Dumbledore located the next horcrux, he summoned Harry to go with him, as promised. That same night Trelawny told him her omens, and Harry told him Malfoy had succeeded. Harry found out about Snape and the prophecy on the way to Dumbledore's office, there was nothing Dumbledore could have done to calm him down beforehand, because he didn't know beforehand. Harry was was livid with Snape. Dumbledore decided the priority was to get the horcrux first and explain later. As it happened, Dumbledore didn't get a chance to explain anything, or destroy the Horcrux with Harry, and that was the end.

Dumbledore didn't tell Harry to go on a mission with Hermione and Ron, that was their idea. He can't have known what would happen after he was dead. After Dumbledore died, Snape was working with Dumbledore's portrait, so he could adapt to what actually happened when it happened. There was no plan that relied on the trio going to Grimmauld place and taking Phineas Nigellus portrait. Hermione took it, and Snape took advantage of that.

[Quachett]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

A clarification about this point. Harry never mentioned Gryffindor to the Sorting Hat. He repeated 'not Slytherin, not Slytherin', and after the Sorting Hat's comments about Harry doing well in Slytherin it put him in Gryffindor.

Thanks for the correction.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Quachett

I sadi this Harry is in Gryfindor by choice and is a Gryfindor by choice. He could have had been a Slytherin if he had chosen. Having qualities that suit him as a Slytherin doesnt make him any less a Gryfindor. He is a True Gryfindor because when he had a choice to choose he chose Gryfindor. Harry had all those qualitties of Slytherins he showed them time and again, problem is most people see Malfoy and think all slytherins are Malfoys which they arent. Which Quality are you saying Harry did not have? the point of Dumbledore's speech was that he belonged in Gryfindor not that he didnt belong in Slytherin.

I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but frankly, I don't know if Harry ever really had any prominent Slytherin qualities, except having quite strong magical blood from his father's side. Harry never really appeared to me to have any real desire to bring attention and glory to himself, he was never willing to compromise his morals in order to succeed, and he wasn't all that cunning, as far as I can tell. His chief priorities show in the end, sacrificing himself for the greater good. You can't get much less Slytherin than that, in my opinion.

In fact, I think that the choice which Harry made (as Snapes Witch pointed out, it was against Slytherin, not for Gryffindor) had much more to do with proving his lack of Slytherin personality than showing his Gryffindor personality. He was told that he would go on to greatness in Slytherin, and he clearly wanted nothing to do with it.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but frankly, I don't know if Harry ever really had any prominent Slytherin qualities, except having quite strong magical blood from his father's side. Harry never really appeared to me to have any real desire to bring attention and glory to himself, he was never willing to compromise his morals in order to succeed, and he wasn't all that cunning, as far as I can tell. His chief priorities show in the end, sacrificing himself for the greater good. You can't get much less Slytherin than that, in my opinion.

In fact, I think that the choice which Harry made (as Snapes Witch pointed out, it was against Slytherin, not for Gryffindor) had much more to do with proving his lack of Slytherin personality than showing his Gryffindor personality. He was told that he would go on to greatness in Slytherin, and he clearly wanted nothing to do with it.

No, I think you correct, Harry didn't display strong Slytherin qualities. But that isn't what the sorting hat really detected, was it. It was the horcrux of Voldemort inside him that he detected. If Harry had gone on to Slytherin, it is possible that that part of him would have been nurtured and fed and he could have possibly embraced it and given himself over to it.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ajna

No, I think you correct, Harry didn't display strong Slytherin qualities. But that isn't what the sorting hat really detected, was it. It was the horcrux of Voldemort inside him that he detected. If Harry had gone on to Slytherin, it is possible that that part of him would have been nurtured and fed and he could have possibly embraced it and given himself over to it.

Exactly, and I think there is a JKR quote to back this up.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

Dumbledore didn't send anyone out on a mission or know what tools they would need. He only knew how many horcruxes there were when Harry got Slughorn's memory, and moment he knew he explained everything he had already found out to Harry, told him what he thought the horcruxes were, and promised Harry would go with him to destroy the next horcrux. He told Harry that the diary had been a horcrux, and Harry already knew how he destroyed it.

Dumbledore's intention at that time was to look for the Horcruxes himself, and they should both destroy them together. Dumbledore thought he could pick the day he would die. Any preparations he made like writing his will, or giving aberforth the mirror, or giving snape a message for Harry, were for backup, in case things went wrong. There was no point giving Harry the sword, it was there in Dumbledore's office so they could use it any time they wanted - Dumbledore showed Harry where it was.

When Dumbledore located the next horcrux, he summoned Harry to go with him, as promised. That same night Trelawny told him her omens, and Harry told him Malfoy had succeeded. Harry found out about Snape and the prophecy on the way to Dumbledore's office, there was nothing Dumbledore could have done to calm him down beforehand, because he didn't know beforehand. Harry was was livid with Snape. Dumbledore decided the priority was to get the horcrux first and explain later. As it happened, Dumbledore didn't get a chance to explain anything, or destroy the Horcrux with Harry, and that was the end.

Dumbledore didn't tell Harry to go on a mission with Hermione and Ron, that was their idea. He can't have known what would happen after he was dead. After Dumbledore died, Snape was working with Dumbledore's portrait, so he could adapt to what actually happened when it happened. There was no plan that relied on the trio going to Grimmauld place and taking Phineas Nigellus portrait. Hermione took it, and Snape took advantage of that.

I do think Dumbledore expected that whatever Harry did, he would do it with Ron and Hermione. He told Harry that he depended on Hermione to slow him up so that he would let his hot headedness rule his actions upon discovering the existence and meanings of the Hallows.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by ajna

I do think Dumbledore expected that whatever Harry did, he would do it with Ron and Hermione. He told Harry that he depended on Hermione to slow him up so that he would let his hot headedness rule his actions upon discovering the existence and meanings of the Hallows.

I think he could be reasonably confident that Hermione would figure it out, but if she hadn't it would have been a fail-safe plan. Harry would have had to manage without it, but the stone would have stayed hidden.

I think his plan was mainly to teach people and let them make plans. It would be consistent with his personality, and his decision to be Headmaster rather than Minister of Magic. I don't think he left everything to chance, I think he left everything to Harry, Snape and the Order.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Quachett

Were in the book does it say Harry's Curse caused less pain? longevity of the tourture is a testament to the evil in Bella and Voldemort not the intent of the curse. The curse is designed to cause pain period. How it is used is merely the casters manifestation of thier dark side. My point was Harry performed the curse correctly showing that he has a dark side but he fights it and ultimately the good in him prevails. Him not torturing Amycus again is besides the point and irrelavent. The initial act is enough to show that in some circumstances Harry can and will use dark arts and thus my point tht Hermione had no right to withold info on Fiendfyre being able to destroy Horcruxes as Harry might have wanted to try it out. Im not saying he was gonna im just saying he had the right to decide for himself than just an assumption.

For me, how the curse is used is more significant in regards to the character of the person using it. The basic method and effects of the curse will generally be the same regardless who uses it. What makes the difference is how they use it. Harry used it briefly and, yes, that caused Amycus pain, but that pain was also short lived because Harry chose to knock Amycus out rather than torture him with continuous, prolonged pain - which is how Voldemort and Bellatrix would use the curse because they enjoyed torturing people.

While I agree that Hermione should have discussed all the possibilities with Harry and Ron along with her reasons for them not being viable options, I disagree that Fiendfyre was a viable choice for them to use in destroying Horcruxes. Hermione was right that it was far too dangerous for them to attempt to use it. To do so would have inevitable resulted in tragedy - as was demonstrated with Crabbe attempting to use it in the Room of Requirement at the cost of his own life. The trio would not have been able to control it and the end result would have most likely been rampant destruction that was very probable to kill innocent people. However, I don't see that as a plot hole because there is no contradiction within the plot or Hermione's characterization. Hermione did that kind of thing all the time - that was one of the flaws that made her a more believable character. Sometimes she was right even if her methods were questionable. This was one of those times, IMO.

I sadi this Harry is in Gryfindor by choice and is a Gryfindor by choice. He could have had been a Slytherin if he had chosen. Having qualities that suit him as a Slytherin doesnt make him any less a Gryfindor. He is a True Gryfindor because when he had a choice to choose he chose Gryfindor. Harry had all those qualitties of Slytherins he showed them time and again, problem is most people see Malfoy and think all slytherins are Malfoys which they arent. Which Quality are you saying Harry did not have? the point of Dumbledore's speech was that he belonged in Gryfindor not that he didnt belong in Slytherin.

That's the point actually. Harry was not a Gryffindor by choice. Not once did Harry ever tell the Sorting Hat that he wanted to be sorted into Gryffindor. All Harry was thinking was "not Slytherin". Harry was sorted into Gryffindor because the Sorting Hat tested him and determined that was where he belonged. His choice was only relevant in that it demonstrated he did not belong in Slytherin, IMO.

Harry did not have the qualities the Sorting Hat listed as requirements for Slyttherin. Great ambition - using any means to achieve their ends - great cunning ... Harry did not have any of those traits, IMO. He could be cunning, but he wasn't particularly good at that - which was why he got into trouble so much. There were lines Harry would not cross so he did not believe that the ends justified the means. And he wasn't very ambitious. As I see it, the fact that Harry did belong in Gryffindor goes hand in hand with him not belonging in Slytherin because personality traits involved are polar opposites. He also didn't belong in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff he didn't really have the traits for those houses either. A student could only truly belong in one house, IMO.

Draco Malfoy is not an example of the average Slytherin, IMO. They weren't all evil or bullies like Draco. I think Slughorn would be a more accurate representation of the average Slytherin. It's not an issue of good vs. evil for me. It's a simple matter of opposing personality types, IMO. The only things Harry had in common with Salazar Slytherin was that "certain disregard for the rules" - which was generic quality shared by students in all four houses - and the ability to speak Parseltongue - which was not a requirement for being sorted into Slytherin and was also an ability that Harry only had due to having a piece of Voldemort's soul inside him. Once that piece of Voldemort's soul was destroyed, Harry lost the ability to speak Parseltongue because it was never actually his gift to begin with.

For me, Jo's explanation is the only thing that makes any sense because Harry did not have the personality traits listed as requirements for Slytherin. As Jo explained, the only reason the Sorting Hat ever considered Slytherin for Harry was because it sensed that piece of Voldemort's soul inside Harry and was confused. Harry's choice of "not Slytherin" demonstrated that he did not belong in Slytherin - particularly when he continued that mantra even with the Sorting Hat testing him by telling him that Slytherin could help him become great. Once the Sorting Hat had tested Harry, it was certain that he did not belong in Slytherin and chose Gryffindor for him instead because that was where Harry belonged.

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

Dumbledore didn't send anyone out on a mission or know what tools they would need. He only knew how many horcruxes there were when Harry got Slughorn's memory, and moment he knew he explained everything he had already found out to Harry, told him what he thought the horcruxes were, and promised Harry would go with him to destroy the next horcrux. He told Harry that the diary had been a horcrux, and Harry already knew how he destroyed it.

Dumbledore's intention at that time was to look for the Horcruxes himself, and they should both destroy them together. Dumbledore thought he could pick the day he would die. Any preparations he made like writing his will, or giving aberforth the mirror, or giving snape a message for Harry, were for backup, in case things went wrong. There was no point giving Harry the sword, it was there in Dumbledore's office so they could use it any time they wanted - Dumbledore showed Harry where it was.

When Dumbledore located the next horcrux, he summoned Harry to go with him, as promised. That same night Trelawny told him her omens, and Harry told him Malfoy had succeeded. Harry found out about Snape and the prophecy on the way to Dumbledore's office, there was nothing Dumbledore could have done to calm him down beforehand, because he didn't know beforehand. Harry was was livid with Snape. Dumbledore decided the priority was to get the horcrux first and explain later. As it happened, Dumbledore didn't get a chance to explain anything, or destroy the Horcrux with Harry, and that was the end.

Dumbledore didn't tell Harry to go on a mission with Hermione and Ron, that was their idea. He can't have known what would happen after he was dead. After Dumbledore died, Snape was working with Dumbledore's portrait, so he could adapt to what actually happened when it happened. There was no plan that relied on the trio going to Grimmauld place and taking Phineas Nigellus portrait. Hermione took it, and Snape took advantage of that.

That was Dumbledore's plan though. Harry understood that in HBP and that was confirmed in DH. Dumbledore knew that he was going to die within a year. His original plan was to find and destroy the Horcruxes himself - and he had been working towards that for quite some time before he ever brought Harry into it. Once he realized that he only had a year to live, he passed that mission on to Harry because he knew that Harry had to die anyway. If Harry died in the process of finding or destroying a Horcrux, it wouldn't present any problems with his overall plan because he allowed Harry to include Ron and Hermione and they would most likely have turned to the Order for help if Harry died. Harry figured that out in DH as well. That was the whole point of those "lessons" in HBP - Dumbledore was trying to prepare Harry for the eventuality of taking on that mission after he was dead. I think he did a really bad job of it and, ultimately, did not adequately prepare Harry at all, but that was his intention from what we're shown. The only Horcrux Dumbledore ever intended for he and Harry to go after together was the one in the cave because he knew he wasn't going to live long enough to find or destroy any others. Once Snape had killed him, it was down to Harry to complete that task.

Dumbledore knew Harry well enough to know that Harry would continue the task and follow his instructions after his death. He gave Harry permission to include Ron and Hermione - and he knew them well enough to know that they would go with Harry to help him find and destroy the other Horcruxes when it came time to do so. He knew what they would be doing and he knew what they would need in order to succeed - specifically the knowledge of how to destroy a Horcrux and the means to do so. Dumbledore chose not to explain that to Harry or provide the means for Harry to find out and he hid the sword where Harry would never be able to find it on his own - even with Ron and Hermione helping him. He gave them other objects that were intended to help them, but did not provide the information they needed to be able to figure out how to use those objects. In my opinion, that made those things completely useless to the trio until someone else came along to provide the information they needed - or they stumbled across the solution entirely by accident like Ron did with the deluminator.

Once Dumbledore had made the decision to pass that task along to Harry after his death, it was his responsibility to make sure Harry had everything he needed in order to succeed. It should have been Dumbledore who personally went over the information about Horcruxes contained in those books or given those books to Harry - or at least gave Hermione instruction on how to get them. It should have been Dumbledore who personally told Harry that the sword could be used to destroy Horcruxes because it was imbibed with baslisk venom. It should have been Dumbledore who gave Harry the sword - or at least left it for him in a place where he could be certain that Harry would find it like #4 Privet Dr. or even the Burrow. Dumbledore should have given those other objects to the trio personally as well so he could properly explain why he wanted them to have them and how to use them. Bequeathing them in his will served no purpose other than to create confusion and cause Harry to question Dumbledore's intentions and motivations as time passed and he accepted that Dumbledore had left him with nothing.

The bottom line for me is that nothing Dumbledore did actually helped the trio succeed. Their success was completely random and entirely due to luck with the information and/or tools they needed just falling into their laps by means that had nothing to do with Dumbledore. As I said before, they succeeded in spite of Dumbledore's plans - not because of them. Without those completely random lucky breaks, they would have failed because they did not have the means to figure out any of the obscure clues Dumbledore left them on their own, IMO.

Originally Posted by ajna

No, I think you correct, Harry didn't display strong Slytherin qualities. But that isn't what the sorting hat really detected, was it. It was the horcrux of Voldemort inside him that he detected. If Harry had gone on to Slytherin, it is possible that that part of him would have been nurtured and fed and he could have possibly embraced it and given himself over to it.

Exactly.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

The bottom line for me is that nothing Dumbledore did actually helped the trio succeed. Their success was completely random and entirely due to luck with the information and/or tools they needed just falling into their laps by means that had nothing to do with Dumbledore. As I said before, they succeeded in spite of Dumbledore's plans - not because of them. Without those completely random lucky breaks, they would have failed because they did not have the means to figure out any of the obscure clues Dumbledore left them on their own, IMO.

I don't think that takes into account that Dumbledore's plans were interrupted by his death. He had promised Harry that he could come with him and destroy the next horcrux, and that's what they were in the middle of doing when Dumbledore was killed. Had they succeeded, Harry would have known about the sword.

I don't think Dumbledore would have let the horcrux book out of his office because it contained information on making horcruxes. Harry already knew that basilisk venom could destroy a horcrux, the only thing he didn't know was that the sword contained some. We don't know what Dumbledore would have done if he'd lived longer. He might have intended to hand over his gifts in person, but modified his will at the last minute, in case he didn't make it back from the cave.

I think Dumbledore's mistake was underestimating Draco, not deliberately making Harry's situation more difficult. Why would he want to do that?

[BurrowGhoul]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I don't think that takes into account that Dumbledore's plans were interrupted by his death. He had promised Harry that he could come with him and destroy the next horcrux, and that's what they were in the middle of doing when Dumbledore was killed. Had they succeeded, Harry would have known about the sword.

I don't think Dumbledore would have let the horcrux book out of his office because it contained information on making horcruxes. Harry already knew that basilisk venom could destroy a horcrux, the only thing he didn't know was that the sword contained some. We don't know what Dumbledore would have done if he'd lived longer. He might have intended to hand over his gifts in person, but modified his will at the last minute, in case he didn't make it back from the cave.

I think Dumbledore's mistake was underestimating Draco, not deliberately making Harry's situation more difficult. Why would he want to do that?

Dumbledore was dying. That whole year. He knew his time was limited, and still did not rush to give Harry loads of information.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by BurrowGhoul

Dumbledore was dying. That whole year. He knew his time was limited, and still did not rush to give Harry loads of information.

Dumbledore did give Harry loads of information. The same night Harry got Slughorn's memories he discussed with Harry all he'd been able to find out. He couldn't tell Harry anything else until he discovered something else. He must have thought he'd know when his end was nigh in order to tell Snape when to kill him. I think he made mistakes, but I just don't think "deliberately hide information from Harry" was one of them.

[BurrowGhoul]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

Dumbledore did give Harry loads of information. The same night Harry got Slughorn's memories he discussed with Harry all he'd been able to find out. He couldn't tell Harry anything else until he discovered something else. He must have thought he'd know when his end was nigh in order to tell Snape when to kill him. I think he made mistakes, but I just don't think "deliberately hide information from Harry" was one of them.

My point was that Dumbledore didn't run out of time sooner than he anticipated. He knew his time was limited and chose very carefully what he wanted to tell Harry in that time.