Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[gertiekeddle]

Originally Posted by Yoana

He does end up teaching though, and I think his general displeasure at being involved in social interaction on a daily basis shows through.

I believe that is true as also his hate for Harry which shines through from SS/PS on, when it is introduced not only from Harry's, but also from other point of views in the story.

The combination is what makes Snape a teacher, who I would judge as someone who misuses his position - no matter if he additionally already might have worked for saving Harry's life or not.

I do not think that Snape played an act to hide his true mission, nor that he believed himself he did, but that he truly hated Harry for no other reason than that he was James' son, but not his own. In my judgement he (as many real life persons btw) wasn't able to deal with these feelings in a way which was appropriate for a teacher, for an adult or someone, who claimed to feel regrets for having a responsibility in the murder of Harry's parents.
As we see in DH the moment he joins the Order, he still seems to not feel regrets for James or Harry, but for Lily's death only. Dumbledore reacts accordingly.

I believe he changes his view on Harry's life and why it might be worth to save later on, but judging from his behaviour towards the boy, I believe he still dislikes Harry for what he is (=James son) until hid death and doesn't care for him others, than that he promised to protect Lily's son out of regrets for her death.

As a book character that makes him fascinating for me, as a human being his behaviour makes me wonder why he was so very unable to deal with his own feelings and his own life and never finally began to live. Snape is by far not the only character in the series who had to deal with some rough circumstances in childhood. Imo his outsider status as later teenager and adult was entirely self-created. That had been OK, if he had been able to not transfer his unhappiness and partly even self-hate on kids, who probably could have learned a lot more in his lessons, if he still had been stern and maybe even yelling at them by time, but also had been able to meet anyone without prejudices.

[TreacleTartlet]

I agree with, Yoana that Snape didn't like teaching very much and hasn't got a personality suited to the job. If he had a choice of career after turning away from Voldemort,I doubt very much he would have chosen to teach.

I also think that he probably developed his abrasive teaching style when he first began teaching at 21, as a strategy to handle the students who would remember him being a student at Hogwarts. Young novice teachers are usually given a hard time by students. Being a nasty, scary teacher was probably easiest and came naturally, being that I don't think the young Snape we see in TPT had much confidence.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

As far as I can recall, the only time McGonagall openly criticised Trelawney was at the beginning of Harry's third year. After Trelawney tactlessly told a teenager who had nearly been murdered three times already that he was going to die shortly. I can see why she would get angry about that, and I can see why reassuring a teenager that he wasn't going to die that weekend was higher on her list of priorities than Trelawney.

Don't want to go too much into this, as it's not directly about Snape. I agree McGonagall's actions here are perfectly understandable and she's angry at Trelawney on the students' behalf, so is motivated by compassion. However, teachers are not supposed to undermine their colleagues in front of the students, even when said colleagues have acted unprofessionally themselves.

My point really was that most of the Hogwarts staff break RL teaching rules at one point or another. Sometimes, as with McGonagall, their action is pretty justifiable. Sometimes, as with Trelawney telling students they're going to die and wandering around the castle drunk, it's not. And yet the teachers' behaviour is usually presented in the books as less a big deal than it would be in RL (e.g. Trelawney's sacking by Umbridge is, IMO, described with great pathos and the students seem to side with her, even though, strictly speaking, she probably deserved to be sacked)

For me, one of the big messages of the book is that teachers are human and fallible, they have feelings which they can't always leave behind them when they go to class and they make mistakes. I disagree both with those who try to explain away Snape's treatment of his students as just a strict teaching style and say that he always has the interests of the students in mind and with those who say that he is a cruel bully who is unforgivably nasty. My view is somewhere in the middle. IMO, he is cruel and bullying at times, he wrongly takes out his personal issues on innocent students, that's wrong and it could have a devastating effect on some of his pupils. I don't think that should be underestimated. But ultimately he's human and who hasn't ever taken out their own emotions on an innocent bystander in a totally unjust way?

Immaturity in that regard would explain his behaviour towards Harry, Sirius and Lupin. However, the past shows no excuse for his treatment of Neville and Hermione. I don't think his behaviour towards either of them would come under the heading of "totally normal".

I don't, either, but I think in Neville's case, at least, there's still a possible link with James/Lily/Harry, because Snape must know that Neville was the other candidate for the Chosen One and that if Voldemort had targeted him, not Harry, Lily would probably still be alive. I do wonder if his treatment of Neville is motivated, at least in part, by his feelings of grief and guilt over Lily - maybe part of him resents Neville for not dying instead of Lily, but it doesn't have to be as extreme and cruel as that. Maybe he feels guilty every time he sees Neville because he knows he betrayed the Longbottoms, as much as the Potters, by passing over the prophecy to Voldemort? I do think Snape often channels his guilt into anger and resentment. Or it may not even be anything as concrete as that - it could just be that he hates the sight of Neville because it reminds him of the prophecy and his role in passing it on, which he'd rather forget.

And I would disagree that he was unable to fight back - he had an impressive array of spells to use. Also, he was in a position to defend himself, as he and the Marauders were fellow students. His own students were not in a position to defend themselves against his hurtful remarks. Snape bullied (IMO) students from behind a position of power.

I think they were both wrong.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

@Melaszka. Yes, there are a lot of weird things and odd teachers at Hogwarts, and, considering the powers that many of the students have, I've always kind of thought it was a bit haphazardly overseen. Maybe Dumbledore had his own Marauders Map and could watch everyone, but, there just seemed to be very little direct supervision for the age groups attending there.

I think it's three things: (a)the plot demands that students get into dangerous scrapes which they have to get out of by their own quick-wittedness, so the story necessitates that they have less supervision than would be responsible in RL. I think that goes with Harry's relationship with Snape - it's something he has to deal with to grow as a character, so the demands of the novel mean Snape has to be given a freer rein than a responsible headteacher would allow in RL.(b) Dumbledore at times seems to employ teachers for reasons other than meeting the students' educational and developmental needs. e.g. employing Trelawney to protect her from the wrath of Voldemort. I think that's the case with Snape, too - he's there because he's needed by the Order as a double agent, for his own protection because he'd be toast if Voldemort knew he'd betrayed him and because he's needed to help protect Harry. (c) Like I said, I think one of the messages that the novels carry is that teachers are fallible people, with their own lives and problems, and that they don't always get it right. I've always thought that was a very brave message to carry at a time when teachers in RL are facing increasing demands from students and parents who view themselves as "consumers". I love the fortitude with which Hogwarts students just shrug off the bizarre things inflicted on them by their teachers.

In McGonagall's class, Neville is just about as bad as in Potions. But, while she isn't as abrasive as Severus, she's not all touchy-feely either. And, look at his first flying lesson. Not a big success, and Madam Hooch, while stern, had not said or done anything to upset him. So, I don't think his problem in Potions was Severus, I think it was Neville. IMO, he wouldn't have been good at Potions if Miss Connie from Romper Room had been teaching him.

Possibly not, but at least he'd have been bad at Potions and happy, as opposed to bad at Potions and terrified.

And we do know that he excels at DADA, to everyone's surprise, under Harry's gentle encouragement in the DA, which suggests to me that Harry's style is the best way to get results out of Neville.

Hermione, I feel, was a huge frustration in many ways. As has been mentioned, she was continually popping her hand into the air, something which discourages many students from answering. I think it was intimidating and also, why try to answer if you know someone else is going to answer all of the questions for you? I also think that Severus became frustrated with her because she knew so much, but she didn't have the courage to use it. She still followed every little direction in the books (as we see in HBP). I think he felt she should have been doing some tweaking and experimenting, such as he had done, and put all of that "book learning" to use instead of just parroting information back at him.

I think that Hermione's over-eagerness to put her hand up and her overreliance on her reading are problems that needed dealing with, but I don't think Snape's method was the right way of dealing with it.

And I don't think anything excuses the "I see no difference" remark.

As for copying the detention cards, I think Severus wanted to make a point to Harry about the number of times his father and Sirius were in detention -- the number of times they out and out disregarded rules and went ahead and did what they wanted when they wnated. Also, Harry didn't seem to find any cards about Severus' detentions in there (I'm sure we'd have had that pointed out -- Harry would have squealed with glee). Maybe Severus wanted Harry to see that, as well. Had he been running around using Dark Arts and hexing, as Harry had been told, there would probably have been something in the files. I don't think Severus would have been dishonorable enought to remove any cards referring to him. That just doesn't seem in his character.

I don't think Snape removed any cards, either. I also think it's possible that he may have been trying to prove to Harry that he was the victim in SWM and that the Marauders were not good role models, but IMO at best he is being colossally insensitive and egotistically putting his need to be right ahead of a recently bereaved teenage boy's feelings.

I'll have to get back to you on the Shrieking Shack. Right now I feel that Severus had every right to be insensed and react the way he did, but, let me reread that chapter in light of your post and I'll get back on that.

I can totally understand why he acted the way he did, but I do think his overconfidence in his own character assessments is a flaw here.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think there were other teachers who were as harsh as Snape, I think they don't get a negative mention because Harry likes them.

MvGonagall is at times tart and no-nonsense and certainly has little patience for Neville on occasions, but the fact that Snape is Neville's Boggart, not McGonagall, suggest to me that Snape is harsher.

I also feel that Snape makes personal remarks and allusions in a way that McGonagall doesn't. McGonagall is blunt, but to the point.

I think the only offencive/wrong statement I saw from Snape in that first class was when he asked Harry why he did not help Neville, when Neville blew up his potion (I think this bit of unfairness was a by product of Harry's words to Snape just a bit before). While I think he was not too friendly with Harry, I think Harry's words in that lessons to Snape would be construed as extreme rudeness and mark him down for harsh treatment and I don't think it would be acceptable with any teacher, let alone Snape imo.

But he's been unfair to Harry before Harry even opened his mouth! He makes snide remarks about Harry's "celebrity", assumes that Harry is full of himself because of his fame - on no evidence - and picks on him, by asking him questions he couldn't reasonably be expected to know the answers to and ridiculing him for his complacency and laziness when he can't answer them - even though no-one in the class except Hermione would be able to answer them, either.

he may think he is helping Harry, by knocking the arrogance out of him and stopping him becoming as big-headed and complacent as he perceives James to have been, but he is still, IMO, wrongly making assumptions about an eleven-year-old boy who has not, at that stage, said or done anything to justify it.

The supposedly "cheeky" remark, which I don't think is that cheeky and I taught teenagers for about ten years, happens after all that.

I think Snape can be excused for refusing to listen to Sirius; he wanted to take Sirius (and Lupin who he believed all along was helping Sirius) to Dumbledore and away from the three students who Snape believed were in danger.

I think it's understandable, but I do think he is influenced by his personality flaws here, too, and it's not totally excusable. It seems to me that part of him desperately wants to believe Sirius is the DE that betrayed Lily because of his prior problems with Sirius. I do believe that he genuinely thinks Sirius is dangerous, though, and I do think he genuinely wants to protect the Trio.

Everyone from Dumbledore thought Sirius was the DE;

Yes, but Dumbledore soon changes his mind when the Trio tell him the truth - Snape does not.

Snape also refuses to believe Dumbledore's assurances that Lupin is innocent. Yes, given how wrong Dumbledore was about trusting the Potters' Secret-Keeper I can understand Snape being suspicious. And he's not the only one to assume his character assessments trump Dumbledore's - Harry behaves very similarly when he refuses to accept Dumbledore's assurances that Snape can be trusted! I don't think this is a terrible sin. But I do think it is a recurrent character flaw which he displays.

Also, even after Voldemort's return at the end of GoF, when Sirius has been completely vindicated, Snape continues to treat him with suspicion and hostility. To me, that is the sign of someone who just does not accept he is wrong, and the more wrong he is proved to be about someone, the more he resents them.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

For me, one of the big messages of the book is that teachers are human and fallible, they have feelings which they can't always leave behind them when they go to class and they make mistakes.

Yes! Teaching is a big responsibility, but as students have issues that they bring to class, so do teachers. Most of the time we can overcome them, but sometimes not. I see it as part of being human.

IMO, he is cruel and bullying at times, he wrongly takes out his personal issues on innocent students, that's wrong and it could have a devastating effect on some of his pupils.

I'd agree, that Snape's unresolved issues were part of the cause of his behaviour, particularly towards Harry. I don't think it helped him that he was both working and living in the same enviroment,to which he would associate many of the memories relating to his personal issues.

[The_Green_Woods]

I agree with Yoana, that Snape pretty much dislike teaching and if he had a choice he would not be a teacher. I think he was a teacher because his spying job demanded it, and I think it was the first step towards fooling Voldemort by appearing to fool Dumbledore and landing himself with the job.

posted by gertiekeddle
I do not think that Snape played an act to hide his true mission, nor that he believed himself he did, but that he truly hated Harry for no other reason than that he was James' son, but not his own.

The problem with this for me is that this does not explain the reason for the times Snape allows Harry a lot of leeway and makes the type of memories he gives Harry unfathomable. I can't see myself hand over memories of the type Snape gave Harry, if I hated a person all through the years.

As we see in DH the moment he joins the Order, he still seems to not feel regrets for James or Harry, but for Lily's death only. Dumbledore reacts accordingly.

When is this?

Originally Posted by Melaszka

But he's been unfair to Harry before Harry even opened his mouth! He makes snide remarks about Harry's "celebrity", assumes that Harry is full of himself because of his fame - on no evidence - and picks on him, by asking him questions he couldn't reasonably be expected to know the answers to and ridiculing him for his complacency and laziness when he can't answer them - even though no-one in the class except Hermione would be able to answer them, either.

PS/SS - The Potions Master Snape, like Flitwick, started the class by taking the roll call, and like Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name. "Ah, yes," he said softly. "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity."

This is all he said, before he spoke the introduction and asked Harry the questions. I don't think this can be seen as unfair or rude. JMO.

he may think he is helping Harry, by knocking the arrogance out of him and stopping him becoming as big-headed and complacent as he perceives James to have been, but he is still, IMO, wrongly making assumptions about an eleven-year-old boy who has not, at that stage, said or done anything to justify it.

I think there was nothing that Snape said in that lesson which can be construed so. After the above two lines which I think were certainly not unfair or offensive, this is what canon says happened. While I agree Snape singled out Harry, perhaps because of Lily, or because he wanted to know whether how Harry would react to questions, I don't think they were particularly aimed at removing Harry's arrogance.

PS/SS - The Potions Master Draco Malfoy and his friends Crabbe and Goyle s******ed behind their hands. Snape finished calling the names and looked up at the class. His eyes were black like Hagrid's, but they had none of Hagrid's warmth. They were cold and empty and made you think of dark tunnels. "You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potion-making," he began. He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they caught every word -- like Professor McGonagall, Snape had the gift of keeping a class silent without effort. "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses -- I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." "Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" Powdered root of what to an infusion of what?" Harry glanced at Ron, who looked as stumped as he was; Hermione's hand had shot into the air. "I don't know, sir," said Harry. Snape's lips curled into a sneer. "Tut, tut --- fame clearly isn't everything." He ignored Hermione's hand. "Let's try again, Potter, where would you look if I told you to find me a bezoar?" "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?" Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold eyes. He had looked through his books at the Dursley's, but did Snape expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi?" Snape was still ignoring Hermione's quivering hand. "What's the difference, Potter, between monkshood and wolfsbane?" At this, Hermione stood up, her hand stretching toward the dungeon ceiling. "I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think Hermione does, though, why don't you try her?" A few people laughed; Harry caught Seamus's eye, and Seamus winked. Snape, however, was not pleased.

Yes, but Dumbledore soon changes his mind when the Trio tell him the truth - Snape does not.

I don't think Dumbledore learnt it from the Trio. I think he learnt it from Sirius himself, who was brought to him by Snape. The trio were unconscious when Snape took Sirius to the castle.

POA - Hermione's Secret Together they peered around the bush at the other bank. Snape had regained consciousness. He was conjuring stretchers and lifting the limp forms of Harry, Hermione, and Black onto them. A fourth stretcher, no doubt bearing Ron, was already floating at his side. Then, wand held out in front of him, he moved them away toward the castle.

Snape also refuses to believe Dumbledore's assurances that Lupin is innocent.

I think Snape was right to do so. Lupin never told Dumbledore about Sirius's animagus form, and had Sirius really been a DE who was out to get Harry, Harry would have died when Sirius came into the Gryffindor Tower. Even after that, Lupin keeps quiet about Sirius's animagus form. I think Snape was quite right to distrust Lupin who certainly was not helping even when he thought along with the others Sirius was a DE, and yet was able to quash his conscience when Harry was almost attacked (which is what the others thought when Sirius came into Gryffindor Tower; no one knew he was innocent at that time).

If only he had told Dumbledore about the animagus, not only would Sirius have been found innocent, Peter would have been found out too, by Dumbledore. Both did not happen because Lupin chose to keep quiet even in the face of the danger for Harry. I think Snape was quite right to distrust him.

I apologise for the long post. In my defence some of it is canon quotes.

[bellatrix93]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

Maybe he feels guilty every time he sees Neville because he knows he betrayed the Longbottoms, as much as the Potters, by passing over the prophecy to Voldemort? I do think Snape often channels his guilt into anger and resentment.

In this case, I think Snape has a very interesting way of showing his guilt, . However, I don't think that Snape disliked or mistreated Neville for personal reasons. While it's very possible that he could've hated him for Prophecy-related issues, I think it was more Neville's helplessness, obvious fear and being incompetent, that drove Snape to treating him in that way. Snape was a hard-working student himself, and I'm sure he always thought his young self as the model student, as what any learner should be. Meaning that he encourages, likes, prefers research, analatycal and experimental learning methods, to memorising and recieving knowledge directly from a teacher. Which is why he doesn't approve of Hermione or Neville-type of students, while both types are very natural and can be handled and improved.
I can see why Snape treats them both, in this way. His way of treatment, though, indicates a huge flaw in Snape's character, a flaw which often affects his judgements of other matters and people, throughout the books; and that is being unable to see things from other people's point of view, being unable to look at things from outside his own point of view. This affected the way he treated some of his students, the way he failed to see Harry as a normal and a modest boy and how he refused to listen to Sirius side of the story, that night in the shack.

[The_Green_Woods]

ETA ::

posted by gertiekeddle
As we see in DH the moment he joins the Order, he still seems to not feel regrets for James or Harry, but for Lily's death only. Dumbledore reacts accordingly.

HBP - The Seer Overheard "Please let me finish," Dumbledore waited until Harry had nodded curtly, then went on. "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did no know -- he had no possible way of knowing -- which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father --" Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter. "He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?" "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --"

I think Dumbledore understood that Snape's regret was for both James and Lily, and he says so to Harry as well.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

But he's been unfair to Harry before Harry even opened his mouth! He makes snide remarks about Harry's "celebrity", assumes that Harry is full of himself because of his fame - on no evidence - and picks on him, by asking him questions he couldn't reasonably be expected to know the answers to and ridiculing him for his complacency and laziness when he can't answer them - even though no-one in the class except Hermione would be able to answer them, either.

he may think he is helping Harry, by knocking the arrogance out of him and stopping him becoming as big-headed and complacent as he perceives James to have been, but he is still, IMO, wrongly making assumptions about an eleven-year-old boy who has not, at that stage, said or done anything to justify it.

I agree with all of this.

The supposedly "cheeky" remark, which I don't think is that cheeky and I taught teenagers for about ten years, happens after all that.

I don't think Harry's remark is all that 'cheeky' either.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

The problem with this for me is that this does not explain the reason for the times Snape allows Harry a lot of leeway and makes the type of memories he gives Harry unfathomable.

I'm not seeing how Snape not always being as harsh with Harry as he could be somehow translates to Snape 'giving Harry a lot of leeway'.

(The nearest we see Snape being almost-civil to Harry is during the Occlumency lessons, when he almost pays Harry a compliment : 'that wasn't bad,' he says during one session.)

I can easily hold two ideas in tension: that Snape felt bitterness towards Harry for being James's son but also, at the time, was committed to protecting Harry for Lily's sake. It's what I see on page. That's how I interpret Snape's character. And to me, at any rate, it makes sense. He's a deeply conflicted character. That's all part of his ... Snapeness.

I can't see myself hand over memories of the type Snape gave Harry, if I hated a person all through the years.

Speaking for myself, I also don't believe Snape hated Harry at the very end, simply because it's not what I see on page (regardless of what the author might say off the page).

But I do believe he struggled with feelings of bitterness towards Harry for most of the series.

I think there was nothing that Snape said in that lesson which can be construed so. After the above two lines which I think were certainly not unfair or offensive, this is what canon says happened. While I agree Snape singled out Harry, perhaps because of Lily, or because he wanted to know whether how Harry would react to questions, I don't think they were particularly aimed at removing Harry's arrogance.

I think that's exactly what Snape's comments were aimed at. That's how I interpreted his comments when I first read the book and it's how I interpret them now, even in the light of 'Snape was finally vindicated' (which, in my opinion, he was). I think he's just seeing James the Younger, from the word go, and refusing to see Lily in Harry.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

(a)inflexible belief that he is right and knows more than anyone else, which (as I read it) often means he will cling onto an erroneous assessment of someone's motives, long after there has been ample evidence which should have enabled him to correct it (e.g. his refusal to listen to Sirius's defence in the Shrieking Shack and his utter conviction that Harry is James Mk II, even when Dumbledore has told him he's wrong)

I actually see this a lot more in how he deals with Neville than in anything else. Granted, from Harry's viewpoint, Neville's nervousness would be more noticeable as Harry cares for Neville, but Neville does give off some signs of being nervous, and, while he is able to progress to the next year's class, his exploding cauldrons continue to be a danger and he doesn't appear to make much progress. And yet Snape continues to use his "tried and true" methods, even when he continues to receive results that are, at best, poor.

Originally Posted by Melaszka

(b)inability to control his emotions and stop them clouding his judgement. This seems particularly odd, given that he is a superb Occlumens and manages to hide his emotions in front of Voldemort, but he apparently can't conceal his jealousy and hatred from an eleven-year-old boy! It also seems odd, given the speech he has in OotP about "fools...wearing their hearts on their sleeve", which implies he's learnt his lesson and isn't that person anymore. And yet he seems unable to stop radiating his hatred of James every time he sees Harry and his every action seems precipitated by emotion. What's that all about?

In a way, I think he's managed to control his emotions in one respect, but not in another. Note that although he cannot (or does he simply choose not?) help but comment on James, he manages to speak to Harry rather coolly on the subject: the venom is there, but it is organized. This opposed to his jumbled, defensive, and emotional arguments to Lily in TPT.

Originally Posted by Yoana

I think Snape just hates his job. That's my simple (and simplistic, heh) explanation for his classroom manner.

I think he has the ability to teach (if his students' OWL results are anything to go by), but not the same degree of inclination his colleagues might have, and this often taints his social connections to his students. IMO, he's very much the intellectual and loves his subject(s), but, as you point out, dealing with the people isn't his strong point, to say the least.

Originally Posted by Yoana

He strikes me as a person who loves to be alone and not bothered by anyone. He doesn't seem particularly sociable in his later life, nor does he appear to need society in order to feel validated as a member of his community. So to my mind it follows that teaching wouldn't be his first choice of career. He does end up teaching though, and I think his general displeasure at being involved in social interaction on a daily basis shows through.

This brings to my mind something rather interesting. At the age of nine, he is dying to introduce himself to Lily and clearly is interested in talking about their shared connection (magic). I think here he does feel a strong need to connect with someone like him. His attachment to Mulciber, et al. is similar, IMO, in their shared interest in Dark magic (or whatever brought them together). Similarly, I think a small part of him still wants DD to take his part (I'm mainly thinking of PoA: "Don't you remember how he tried to kill me?") and IMO he definitely cares about DD (reaction to the ring curse). I would agree that by his 30's he's not someone who feels fulfillment by being welcomed into a community, but I'd say that he was somewhat more interested in making connections with people in his youth, and that the Snape Harry becomes acquainted with can more easily deal with smaller groups of people (or one-on-one conversations).

[SadiraSnape]

Originally Posted by Yoana

I think Snape just hates his job...

He strikes me as a person who loves to be alone and not bothered by anyone... teaching wouldn't be his first choice of career. He does end up teaching though, and I think his general displeasure at being involved in social interaction on a daily basis shows through.

I think he was better suited temperamentally to teaching advanced students -- if he had to be a teacher, he should have been teaching only NEWT level students or in the WW equivalent of university. Otherwise, he should have been an apothecary at St. Mungo's, doing research, or making to-order potions.

When I was thinking about being a teacher (for just a short period of time, before I came to my senses) I was only going to teach high school. I have pretty much the same temperament as Severus, and I know I'd... well, let's just say I'm not suited to teaching younger kids.

[sekhmetlion]

Yoana
He strikes me as a person who loves to be alone and not bothered by anyone. He doesn't seem particularly sociable in his later life, nor does he appear to need society in order to feel validated as a member of his community. So to my mind it follows that teaching wouldn't be his first choice of career. He does end up teaching though, and I think his general displeasure at being involved in social interaction on a daily basis shows through.

I am not totally sure of that. As a young person we see Snape thrives to contact with people, only he doesn't know how to do it. I think as an older person he would have liked some bonds, only he was more selective in the people, so he didn't want or need around him people who doesn't have any interest (in personality, or intelligence) to him, nor does he need their approval. However I find him wanting very much Dumbledore's approval and his frienship/care.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

This is all he said, before he spoke the introduction and asked Harry the questions. I don't think this can be seen as unfair or rude. JMO.

I think it's rude. IMO, he comes to the first class expecting Harry to be big-headed about his fame and decides to mention it head-on and take Harry down a peg or two. I know you disagree that he's mocking him, so what motive do you think Snape has for mentioning Harry's "celebrity" here?

I think there was nothing that Snape said in that lesson which can be construed so. After the above two lines which I think were certainly not unfair or offensive, this is what canon says happened. While I agree Snape singled out Harry, perhaps because of Lily, or because he wanted to know whether how Harry would react to questions, I don't think they were particularly aimed at removing Harry's arrogance.

I disagree. Consider this excerpt:

Snape's lips curled into a sneer.

"Tut, tut --- fame clearly isn't everything."

"A sneer" suggests to me that his aim is to ridicule Harry and the "fame clearly isn't everything" line suggests to me what I said above - that he has aimed these difficult questions at Harry, hoping he will get them wrong, so that he can take him down a peg or two, because he thinks that Harry will be big-headed about his fame and think that it is "everything". JMO.

Also:

"Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?"

Again, as I read it, a prejudiced assumption that Harry is lazy and won't have been bothered to do any pre-class reading.

Originally Posted by ignisia

Neville does give off some signs of being nervous, and, while he is able to progress to the next year's class, his exploding cauldrons continue to be a danger and he doesn't appear to make much progress.

Sorry to be a Brit-picking pedant here, but in British schools you don't have to pass the year in order to "progress to the next year's class". Until you get to 16, the year you are in at school is based entirely on your age, not your academic performance, and you don't have to retake years. It's only once you get to the sixth-form that you may have to retake public exams which you've failed/passed at a low level if you want to continue with that subject at a higher level.

I'm assuming that Hogwarts works in the same way, as it mirrors the English and Welsh school system in every other way and I don't think there's any mention of anyone retaking a year until the sixth form, when Crabbe and Goyle have to retake the DADA exam they failed. If so, then Neville moving up to the next year's class does not necessarily indicate any competence or progress in the subject.

And yet Snape continues to use his "tried and true" methods, even when he continues to receive results that are, at best, poor.

Yes, I think Neville could have done better in Potions if Snape had been prepared to admit he'd been going about it the wrong way and rethink his approach.

[Thinktank]

Originally Posted by Yoana

I think Snape just hates his job. That's my simple (and simplistic, heh) explanation for his classroom manner.

I think Snape's more of a researcher than a teacher. If things had gone differently in his life for him, he could have written his own potions textbook as he knows practically everything there is to know about potions as well as DADA. He just completely lacks the patience and pedagogic (?) skills to be considered a succesful teacher by today's standards. I've seen a lot of older professors at university who are kind of like Snape, they usually prefer to stay behind closed doors in their research areas and see teaching as an obligatory punishment that they have to go through in order to maintain their research positions. It's only when a student really shows some original thinking that they even grow faintly interested in them. Maybe Snape was a bit dfferent when teaching his NEWT classes but alas, we never got to see that. His teaching style was probably something that he thought wielded at least some sort of succesful results, and I guess he preferred being the terrifying potions professor who taught future aurors an healers than being someone like Lockhart.

And I don't think anything excuses the "I see no difference" remark.

I can forgive Severus for a lot of stuff, or understand his reasons for saying something in a certain situation, but I've never been able to understand what on earth was going through his mind when he said that...

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

(b)inability to control his emotions and stop them clouding his judgement. This seems particularly odd, given that he is a superb Occlumens and manages to hide his emotions in front of Voldemort, but he apparently can't conceal his jealousy and hatred from an eleven-year-old boy! It also seems odd, given the speech he has in OotP about "fools...wearing their hearts on their sleeve", which implies he's learnt his lesson and isn't that person anymore. And yet he seems unable to stop radiating his hatred of James every time he sees Harry and his every action seems precipitated by emotion. What's that all about?

For me it is this contradiction that make Snape so real. I have always taken it that Snape's priority was to suppress those emotions that are likely to incriminate him with Voldemort - his love for Lily, feelings of friendship towards Dumbledore. His relationship with other members of staff were apparently kept very much on a professional level mainly because I think that Severus is a loner, but even if he were not, he would find it much harder to face Voldemort and lie if he was living a life of happiness in a social whirl! So Severus remains very self contained. He has a personality that would tend to focus on negative emotions and a job that requires that he do just that. His positive emotions (which I also believe that he sees as weak) he suppresses - something that I think he would do anyway (he never told Lily of his love for her) However I also think that Severus is quite an intense person who feels things keenly and all that suppressed emotion must go somewhere, and as such it comes out in his negative emotions towards James, Sirius, Lupin and Harry. Like a steam engine under pressure he must vent that steam somewhere!

[MinervasCat]

And I don't think anything excuses the "I see no difference" remark.

That one even surprised me. The only thing I can come up with was he was having a very bad day. It was over the top, even for Severus.

It has been suggested that he was talking about the difference in the hexes -- he didn't see the difference in the seriousness of the one Hermione used to the one used on her.

It was still a very hurtful thing, as she was self conscious about her teeth (and, her parents were dentists??? couldn't they have afforded to have them fixed with those Lumineer things or whatever?)


Back to the Shrieking Shack incident that I've been pondering. If we look from Severus' POV:

Lupin has left without taking his wolfsbane potion.

Severus has seen on the Marauders Map, left open on Lupin's desk, where he's headed and follows, more than likely assuming that he is on his way to meet with Sirius. Since he didn't trust Lupin due to his being Sirius' friend, it was not a big leap.

Severus arrives in the room of the Shrieking Shack to find:
*Harry, Ron, and Hermione in a room with an escaped "murderer"
*Ron on the bed, bleeding from his leg wound
*The "murderer's" BFF, a teacher who should be throwing himself between said "murderer" and the students, but, instead who is seeming to be quite comfortable in his presence

Yes, Severus drew the wrong conclusions and acted on them, but, given the information he was working from, he was doing the right thing: trying to protect the students. Here was the person who the entire Wizarding World thought was responsible for Voldemort locating the Potters and killing them, and, who was suppose to be a DE, to boot. As far as Severus knew, here was the man who was directly responsible for Lily's death -- the man who had negated Severus' efforts to protect Lily after his own misdeed.

Along with him was the teacher Severus had warned Dumbledore all year was helping Sirius get into the castle (we, of course, know it was Crookshanks, but Snape didn't) and three students, one badly injured, and another a possible target of the "murderer's" vengence for LV's demise.

I'm thinking a little caps lock rage was not totally surprising, under the circumstances. I don't think that it is a stretch to think that Sirius, James and crew talked themselves out of about half-again as many detentions as were in the box we later see. So, to give him a chance to, as Severus was probably concerned, weedle his way out of the situation...or, to possibly do harm to Harry while they were just having a good old High School Reunion, was not the way to go. I would guess that he didn't trust that Sirius would be telling the truth, anyway, so why take the chance.

Even though he rants and threatens, he really doesn't do anything other than tie Sirius and Lupin up. He chooses to take them back and let them face Wizarding justice instead.

Standing back and looking at things from the outside, having seen what transpired prior to Severus' arrival in the room and such, it's easy to say he over-reacted. But, again, trying to look from his POV, it's a bit of a different story...look at Harry's initial reaction. He tried to strangle Sirius with his bare hands. If he hadn't trusted Lupin enough to listen to him about the map and Pettigrew, he might not have been as receptive to Sirius' explanations as he was. Therein lies part of the difference: Harry trusted Lupin; Severus didn't. Severus didn't know about Scabbers/Pettigrew when he entered the room. He only knew what I just outlined and acted on that.

I have to vote that he did the right based on the information he had and the situation he walked in on.

[sekhmetlion]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

For me it is this contradiction that make Snape so real. I have always taken it that Snape's priority was to suppress those emotions that are likely to incriminate him with Voldemort - his love for Lily, feelings of friendship towards Dumbledore. His relationship with other members of staff were apparently kept very much on a professional level mainly because I think that Severus is a loner, but even if he were not, he would find it much harder to face Voldemort and lie if he was living a life of happiness in a social whirl! So Severus remains very self contained. He has a personality that would tend to focus on negative emotions and a job that requires that he do just that. His positive emotions (which I also believe that he sees as weak) he suppresses - something that I think he would do anyway (he never told Lily of his love for her) However I also think that Severus is quite an intense person who feels things keenly and all that suppressed emotion must go somewhere, and as such it comes out in his negative emotions towards James, Sirius, Lupin and Harry. Like a steam engine under pressure he must vent that steam somewhere!

Totally agree with that, the thing with Snape is that he critizices everybody who shows emotions, yet he is a person with very deep emotions and has problems controlling them. The distancing between him and other teachers, I think it is not only due to Voldermort, or actually it is but in a very little part. I think he could have been nice to them without Voldemort suspecting, after all, he was able to pass his opposition to Quirrell (and to Voldemort himself) in first year as just ignorance, so he could probably have passed kindness to other teachers as just normal life or everyday surviving, the same way Lucius "presented a decent face but didn't give up the old ways". So to me his distancing has more to do with the fact that he was too deeple injured, he could not intend to have a deep relationship without revelling part of his secrets, and all the Lily stuff, that would have been too shameful in his mind.

Remember Albus not only doesn't forbidd him to tell everybody about Lily and his feelings for her, but also is saddened when he refuses to let everybody know "the best of him" it is mainly a Snape's way of thinking, more than an imposition of his spy job.

He would regard himself as vulnerable again, and knowing how much he has suffered when in his youth, he doesn't want to be vulnerable never ever again, he prefers to be isolated but feared.

[MinervasCat]

I agree, sekhmetlion. Some things are just too deep and personal to let others see. Severus was a man of many secrets. I've never been sure exactly why he wanted the best of him kept hidden. Maybe he did feel that it showed weakness.

It seems a shame for a man with such deep emotions to have to hide them. But, I guess that's another thing that makes Severus so interesting. All of that bubbling just under the surface, and exploding every now and then. But, also, such control as to be able to block a master Legilimens like Voldemort. Quite an enigma, Professor Snape.

[gryffindor_ftw]

1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
I think that it was still intact after Snape killed Dumbledore, because they had discussed his death before and it was the only way. Also, Snape would have never helped Harry if his soul was not pure.

2. To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
I don't think that Snape's parents were to blame for his later choices. I think he chose to do all of the things he did good and bad. It was his choice to join Voldemort and try to take revenge and it was also his choice to kill Dumbledore when he was the only one that could do it.

3. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
If Lily had not died, I think that Snape would have stayed with the Death Eaters. The love of his life was the only person that could change who he was.

4. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
I think that his love for Lily brought him over to the good side, but once he was over on the good side, he remained. He killed Dumbledore, because Dumbledore was the only one that he had ever confided in and he was so horrible to Sirius because of school.

5. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
I think that Snape hated Harry because of his father and Neville because he tended to be horrible at potions. Snape, however, should not have been so cruel to both because one, Harry was NOT his father and Neville came through in the end.

6. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
I think that he wanted Harry to understand. I believe that deep inside he cared for Harry very much and wanted Harry to know why he did what he did. I think he wanted Harry to forgive him for Harry's sake, not for his own.

7. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I think that Dumbledore was not a father figure, but they were more than friends. Snape confided in Dumbledore what he had never told anyone before. He trusted that Dumbledore would not tell and would help him seek the revenge he so desperately needed. Although, after he joined the good side, Snape and Dumbledore became close. It might seem like a father and son scene, but I do not think that Dumbledore was a father figure towards Snape.

8. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
He is the odd character. The one that fits in yet is always apart.

9. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Strengths:
The ability to love someone as much as he did.
The ability to know when you are doing something wrong (when he finally moved over to the good side)

Flaws:
Holds grudges way to long

10. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
I would say that Snape is the potions master. The Professor that lurks in the dungeons and seems to be up to no good, yet in the end he is doing good.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

That one even surprised me. The only thing I can come up with was he was having a very bad day. It was over the top, even for Severus.

It has been suggested that he was talking about the difference in the hexes -- he didn't see the difference in the seriousness of the one Hermione used to the one used on her.

I don't buy it. Snape sent Goyle to the hospital wing to have the hex dealt with. He ignored Hermione's problem, and IMO, the remark was intended as an insult. If he had meant it as suggested here, he would have sent both students to the hospital wing immediately.

It was still a very hurtful thing, as she was self conscious about her teeth (and, her parents were dentists??? couldn't they have afforded to have them fixed with those Lumineer things or whatever?)

Hermione seems to have been wearing braces, in the book. She comments that her parents won't be pleased that she had her teeth corrected magically, as they wanted her to continue with the braces. IMO, whatever course of action Hermione's parents took in relation to her teeth, it does not change the cruel nature of the remark Snape made.

I think it's ironic that Snape, whose appearance was mocked as a child and teenager, went on to "forget" how hurtful it can be to find oneself on the receiving end of that kind of behaviour. Again, I think that Snape exhibits the kind of behaviour he criticises others for.

Lupin has left without taking his wolfsbane potion.

Lupin could not have taken it, as he had left his office before Snape brought it. It wasn't as though he ran off, leaving a goblet of potion sitting untouched on the desk.

Yes, Severus drew the wrong conclusions and acted on them, but, given the information he was working from, he was doing the right thing: trying to protect the students. Here was the person who the entire Wizarding World thought was responsible for Voldemort locating the Potters and killing them, and, who was suppose to be a DE, to boot. As far as Severus knew, here was the man who was directly responsible for Lily's death -- the man who had negated Severus' efforts to protect Lily after his own misdeed.

I find it interesting that while trying to protect the students, he stood listening to the conversation for some time, while hidden under the Invisibility Cloak.

IMO, Snape's behaviour in the Shack raises the question, why is Snape able to restrain himself around Wormtail in HBP? But not around Sirius in OotP, after he knows for a fact that Sirius was never a DE?

[sekhmetlion]

Some things are just too deep and personal to let others see. Severus was a man of many secrets. I've never been sure exactly why he wanted the best of him kept hidden. Maybe he did feel that it showed weakness.

I think it has to do with his experiences whenever his feelings were in the middle. Example: he had feelings for Lily, look at the final result of his aspirations. He wanted to be accepted and have friends so he joined DE and look at the result of that decision. He learnt very early that putting your feelings in front of you would only result in pain, he leart it the hard way, so he just avoid showing his feelings at all cost. No matter that now he is surrounded by good people like DD or McGonagall who will respect him no matter what, his subconscient cannot be in terms with that.

Other facet of it: if he did, he would inspire pity, and he worker really hard to avoid that image of weakness, he doesn't want people to feel sorrow for him. He doesn't realize that, instead of pity, they will feel admiration, inside he is still vulnerable to some degree, and he doesn't want others to see that. A part of him fears that he will be bullied again if he shows vulnerability, it is an irrational part of him, but it is there still very strong.