Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[ignisia]

I believe the role remaining in Hogwarts played on Severus' mind was not entirely a conscious one. While I think he certainly disliked his job for the most part, I don't think he ever really gives a sign that he feels (or acknowledges) any discomfort being at the site of such pivotal moments in his life. Rather, I think seeing the same sights on a daily basis, sights associated with either a time when he was a victim of bullying, or moments with a lost friend, exacerbated certain feelings within him, sometimes with his knowledge, and sometimes unconsciously.
Same with his summer residence, and negative associations with his father, IMO.

Regarding Dumbledore, I tend to think he made Severus the offer to protect Harry mostly because it was the right thing. Yes, having a protector for Harry would have been an additional bonus, but Harry was famous, to be living under blood protection, and had no end of witches and wizards who would have loved to protect him-- some of whom also had some emotional connection to the child.

The thing is, I tend to see Severus' reaction to DD's offer as emotionally motivated, but not irrational, if that makes sense. Recall that he at first argues that Voldemort is gone, and then makes DD promise to keep it secret. That he doesn't jump on the offer immediately suggests to me that his mindset is not one in which he can be easily manipulated into action: he is despairing and suicidal at this point, and I believe in that mood, sometimes it can be easier to just lie down and die than to be recalled to life.

And what does YMMV mean?

Your Mileage May Vary.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by ignisia

I believe the role remaining in Hogwarts played on Severus' mind was not entirely a conscious one. While I think he certainly disliked his job for the most part, I don't think he ever really gives a sign that he feels (or acknowledges) any discomfort being at the site of such pivotal moments in his life. Rather, I think seeing the same sights on a daily basis, sights associated with either a time when he was a victim of bullying, or moments with a lost friend, exacerbated certain feelings within him, sometimes with his knowledge, and sometimes unconsciously.

I tend to agree that this probably provoked unconscious associations and emotions. I don't think he really thought deeply about his own part in his schooldays experiences, from his bullying Muggleborns, antagonizing his rivals , or alienating his friend. I think enlightenment was something that crept up on Snape inch by inch over the many years he was at Hogwarts after the war.

Regarding Dumbledore, I tend to think he made Severus the offer to protect Harry mostly because it was the right thing. Yes, having a protector for Harry would have been an additional bonus, but Harry was famous, to be living under blood protection, and had no end of witches and wizards who would have loved to protect him-- some of whom also had some emotional connection to the child.

I agree. I think Dumbledore offered the "Protect Harry" thing to Snape because it was necessary for Snape so he could change, not because Harry needed it. It gave Snape a purpose to focus on that was outside himself.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by boushh

I don't think he was manipulated or trapped by Dumbledore either. I think he made his choice on the hill with little prompting. I don't even think the "you disgust me" was the reason he chose to do "anything" to help. I think he had largely made that choice when he went to Dumbledore in the first place. I think his choice was a more conscious extension of that. After Lily's death he was given a purpose... a reason to go on. After that I think he continued to learn, change, and improve. Like everyone else in this world he was a work in progress even when he died, but I think he was very different from DE Snape. At least he was to me...

I don't think Severus was manipulated, either. I feel that, as he chose to join Voldemort and the DE's of his own free will (regardless of his options), the choice to join Dumbledore was made that way as well. And, I think he remained by his own will. He felt true remorse and did his penance because he wanted to, not because he had to.

I also don't think the "You disgust me," line from Dumbledore was the reason he chose to turn away from Voldemort. I think that line was like cold water being thrown in his face -- it made him see himself as one who'd sunk to the point where he had offered to trade a baby's life for Lily's, and I don't think that was who he really was.

So, instead, he took the option to save Lily, Harry, and even James. That was the change I saw in Severus at that moment and from that admonition. Going from the selfishness of just wanting to save someone he loved to promising "anything" to save three human lives. That, to me, was when his valuing a human life became a part of him. I'm sure saving Lily was still paramount, but, I think the fact that he changed his request from just saving her to saving all of them, and offering "anything" to accomplish that, was a huge step toward his redemption.

IMO, Severus knew once he told Dumbledore the Potters were in danger DD was going to protect them. DD wasn't doing it for Severus, he was doing it for them. So, it wouldn't have mattered if Severus came over to DD's side or not; it wouldn't have mattered if he offered to do "anything" or not. From the time he made DD aware of the situation, he would have known Lily was protected to the best of DD's ability (and, I'd say he probably could have easily figured out that James and Harry were going to be protected as well).

This is what makes me think that Severus was ready to leave Voldemort, whatever it took to do that, even if it meant dying. If Dumbledore had just said he'd see the Potters were protected, I think Severus would have surrendered and gone to Azkaban. He didn't come to bargain, from what I see, he came to beg. Dumbledore, however, offered him the option to skip Azkaban and join his team, and, while I'm sure it was a bit of a relief, my perception of the scene is that Severus didn't come expecting that. In fact, I think he came expecting to either be killed, or at least arrested. But, he came anyway, and did that of his own free will as well.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

My opinion of Severus would be greatly lessened if I thought he was susceptible to having his emotions 'played on'. Dumbledore's disgust at him on the hilltop in 1981 seemed to be a cold shock that brought Severus to his senses. And when he said 'Anything', (i.e. 'I will do anything to try to make amends for Lily's death') I believe he wasn't kidding. So I think he took on the job of teacher/spy at Hogwarts of his own free will, as Susan Bones says.

Of course that promise on the hilltop came before Lily died.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by boushh

I don't think he was manipulated or trapped by Dumbledore either. I think he made his choice on the hill with little prompting. I don't even think the "you disgust me" was the reason he chose to do "anything" to help.

And I wonder sometimes if that line "you disgust me" was not just Dumbledore passing judgment, but a way for Dumbledore to test Snape, to push him a little to see where his mind was at that moment.

Because if Snape had been anything like Tom Riddle, he would have been outraged that someone disapproved of him. If he was like Bellatrix, he might shriek like a Banshee and completely lose it.

But Snape didn't respond like Bellatrix or Tom Riddle - he wasn't arrogant and he didn't fly off the handle. Instead he said he would do "Anything" to protect them all - a generous offer for a man who would have to put his life on the line and get nothing in return - especially after hearing "you disgust me." To me that seems to be a sign that Snape had the right idea about turning things around, and the reason that Dumbledore trusted him so fast.

Originally Posted by Boushh

I think he had largely made that choice when he went to Dumbledore in the first place. I think his choice was a more conscious extension of that. After Lily's death he was given a purpose... a reason to go on. After that I think he continued to learn, change, and improve. Like everyone else in this world he was a work in progress even when he died, but I think he was very different from DE Snape. At least he was to me...

Correct, imo. The other improvements in his character came later, but the fact that it didn't take long to convince Snape to stay alive to look after Harry means he had come a long way, in my opinion.

Also, something that someone brought up a few days ago about Snape being able to go off and have fun in the ten years while Harry was at Privet Drive. I don't think that is true. I think Harry was being guarded during those years. Don't Harry and Petunia sometimes see people they think are weirdos/wizards hanging around Little Whinging, and Petunia gets all freaked out?

And in OotP, Dumbledore says:

I defy anyone who has watched you as I have - and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined - not to want to save you more pain than you had already suffered.

Also, this may put "Anything" in perspective as well: it didn't just mean 10 years ~ to Dumbledore's mind, he might have been asking Snape to spend the rest of Harry's natural life trying to help him delay the return of Voldemort:

My answer is that my priority was to keep you alive. You were in more danger than perhaps anyone but I realised. Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters - and many of them are almost as terrible as he - were still at large, angry, desperate and violent. And I had to make my decision, too, with regard to the years ahead. Did I believe that Voldemort was gone for ever? No. I knew not whether it would be ten, twenty or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure he would do so, and I was sure, too, knowing him as I have done, that he would not rest until he killed you.

50 years? That's a long time to ask someone to be a spy. By that time, Harry could have been protecting Snape in his old age, not the other way around.

It's interesting that many of the other DEs were "angry, deperate and violent" while Snape was sitting there sobbing about Lily and wanting to die. He couldn't have cared less that Voldemort was vanquished, and that's the difference between Snape and Peter, Bella, and all the other "real" DEs. JMO

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by boushh

I don't think he was manipulated or trapped by Dumbledore either. I think he made his choice on the hill with little prompting. I don't even think the "you disgust me" was the reason he chose to do "anything" to help. I think he had largely made that choice when he went to Dumbledore in the first place.

Yes, I think that Severus had chosen to go against Voldemort, as soon as he targeted Lily. That is also what Harry believed.

“Of course he told you that,” said Harry, “but he was Dumbledore’s spy from the moment you threatened her, and he’s been working against you ever since! (DH, The Flaw in The Plan)

Originally Posted by ignisia

I believe the role remaining in Hogwarts played on Severus' mind was not entirely a conscious one. While I think he certainly disliked his job for the most part, I don't think he ever really gives a sign that he feels (or acknowledges) any discomfort being at the site of such pivotal moments in his life. Rather, I think seeing the same sights on a daily basis, sights associated with either a time when he was a victim of bullying, or moments with a lost friend, exacerbated certain feelings within him, sometimes with his knowledge, and sometimes unconsciously.
Same with his summer residence, and negative associations with his father, IMO.

I agree! Hogwarts was the scene of Snape's disastrous teenage years, the place where he was bullied and humiliated, where he lost his best friend and girl he loved,and was as a consequence working an d living there was bound to have some effect on him emotionally, imo. Yet, I don't think he acknowledged it as such.

[boushh]

IMO, I think Harry was right. Even though Hogwarts was a place where unhappy things happened to him, Severus still considered Hogwarts his home.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

50 years? That's a long time to ask someone to be a spy. By that time, Harry could have been protecting Snape in his old age, not the other way around.

*image of Severus following Harry around on a flying Rascal scooter*

It's interesting that many of the other DEs were "angry, deperate and violent" while Snape was sitting there sobbing about Lily and wanting to die. He couldn't have cared less that Voldemort was vanquished, and that's the difference between Snape and Peter, Bella, and all the other "real" DEs. JMO

It was after Voldemort's "disappearance" that the Longbottoms were Crucio'd into insanity and Peter killed a dozen Muggles and set Sirius up in order to escape. So, DD was certainly spot on with that. And, like you said, Severus was mourning Lily and not Voldemort, IMO, which tells us volumes.

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

Yes, I think that Severus had chosen to go against Voldemort, as soon as he targeted Lily. That is also what Harry believed.

“Of course he told you that,” said Harry, “but he was Dumbledore’s spy from the moment you threatened her, and he’s been working against you ever since! (DH, The Flaw in The Plan)

Agree. Like I said, I think he was determined to leave, give his information to Dumbledore to save Lily, and then face the consequences, whatever they were.

I agree! Hogwarts was the scene of Snape's disastrous teenage years, the place where he was bullied and humiliated, where he lost his best friend and girl he loved,and was as a consequence working an d living there was bound to have some effect on him emotionally, imo. Yet, I don't think he acknowledged it as such.

It is also heavily implied ("The Abandoned Boys of Hogwarts") that he felt it was his home.

[SadiraSnape]

Originally Posted by SusanBones

You've said this before, and I just couldn't disagree more. When Snape's free will is taken away, as you are suggesting, unless I am misunderstanding, then his redemptive path is meaningless, as I see it. It is only when a person freely and willingly wants to change, that he becomes redeemed. And in my opinion, Snape was redeemed.

Absolutely he was redeemed; I just believe he could have been equally redeemed outside Hogwarts' walls. The important thing was not that he taught Potions or had anything to do with Hogwarts; it was that he saw the error of his ways and joined the side of Light and the Order, which he could have done no matter what he did.

I believe Dumbledore played on Severus' emotions in order to get him to stay on at Hogwarts, not to work on the side of Light. Staying at Hogwarts was probably the last place Severus needed to be, given his temperament.

That's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by SusanBones

And what does YMMV mean?

Your Mileage May Vary...

Originally Posted by ignisia

I believe the role remaining in Hogwarts played on Severus' mind was not entirely a conscious one. While I think he certainly disliked his job for the most part, I don't think he ever really gives a sign that he feels (or acknowledges) any discomfort being at the site of such pivotal moments in his life. Rather, I think seeing the same sights on a daily basis, sights associated with either a time when he was a victim of bullying, or moments with a lost friend, exacerbated certain feelings within him, sometimes with his knowledge, and sometimes unconsciously.
Same with his summer residence, and negative associations with his father, IMO.

This what I was getting at. Staying on at Hogwarts is, IMO, what froze Snape at a certain point in his emotional and psychological development, and is what caused him to be unable (unwilling?) to move on with his life.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

IMO, Severus knew once he told Dumbledore the Potters were in danger DD was going to protect them... From the time he made DD aware of the situation, he would have known Lily was protected to the best of DD's ability (and, I'd say he probably could have easily figured out that James and Harry were going to be protected as well).

This is what makes me think that Severus was ready to leave Voldemort, whatever it took to do that, even if it meant dying. If Dumbledore had just said he'd see the Potters were protected, I think Severus would have surrendered and gone to Azkaban. He didn't come to bargain, from what I see, he came to beg. Dumbledore, however, offered him the option to skip Azkaban and join his team, and, while I'm sure it was a bit of a relief, my perception of the scene is that Severus didn't come expecting that. In fact, I think he came expecting to either be killed, or at least arrested. But, he came anyway, and did that of his own free will as well.

Absolutely. He didn't expect or ask asylum with Dumbledore. His feet were set on the path of redemption as soon as he met with DD on that hill. This is why I feel Severus was a DE of the same mold as Regulus Black and Draco Malfoy -- he could talk the talk up to a point, but he could never really walk the walk. Even if Lily had never been targeted, even if no prophecy had ever been given, I don't think Severus would or could have stayed a DE all the way through -- at bottom he had too strong an ethical code of conduct. True, he probably would have died and the books would have been completely different, but that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

And I wonder sometimes if that line "you disgust me" was not just Dumbledore passing judgment, but a way for Dumbledore to test Snape, to push him a little to see where his mind was at that moment... he said he would do "Anything" to protect them all - a generous offer for a man who would have to put his life on the line and get nothing in return - especially after hearing "you disgust me." To me that seems to be a sign that Snape had the right idea about turning things around, and the reason that Dumbledore trusted him so fast.

I think it proved to DD that Severus, unlike Tom Riddle or Bellatrix, was sane and could feel love. It was love drove Severus to that hilltop, and love that saved Harry.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Also, something that someone brought up a few days ago about Snape being able to go off and have fun in the ten years while Harry was at Privet Drive.

No, not have fun. But grow up himself, mature, learn more about who exactly Severus Snape was. Do something more in line with his temperament than teach. He became a member of the Order at some point; he could have been one of the external Harry guards rather than being immured in Hogwarts. He may have had a chance to learn how to make some other place and some other career his home...

It was just speculation.

I should really not post my more esoteric thoughts when I'm not in shape to explicate them properly. Sorry.

[MinervasCat]

Bella throws it in his face that he is at Hogwarts while they are in Azkaban. He retorts that he was more use there spying on Dumbledore than she was in jail.

Since Dumbledore was sure Voldy was going to make an encore performance, Severus may have thought it wise to remain in the place where Voldemort "stationed" him, and be able to go to him with ten years of "information" rather than going somewhere else or working for the Order in an outside position. It might have been easier to explain.

I'd guess he had a hard enough time trying to get out of the Quirrel-mort fiasco, but was able to cover it. If he'd been out rounding up DEs or guarding Harry, he might not have been able to cover that as convincingly as his "sacrificing" ten loooooong years teaching Dunderheads.

[KendraD]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

That's not to say that his redemptive arc is not without bumps. He takes steps forward and steps backward - just as most people do. He has some very serious traumas from his own schooldays that he cannot get past, and they interfere with his objectivity.

I used to think that Snape was needlessly stuck in the past, but look at how the past affected Snape's life. No, I do not think after Lily died he would be able to live with himself if he was not doing what only he could to protect Lily's son.Yet, he could have had a better life, one with a lot less danger and Lily in it (if not his wife, at least still his best friend).

After re-reading the series I looked at Snape's actions differently. I thought that he was very bitter for holding a grudge against a dead man and taking it out on his son. But knowing the full story I think that Snape blamed James, Sirus, and Lupin for him losing Lily as his best friend and later forever. If they would have just let him be after taking the O.W.L., Lily never would have had to come to his defense probably making fifteen year old Severus embarrassed that a girl, the girl that he liked coming to his rescue causing him to retaliate with the unforgivable word that was the last straw. Lily was probably the only one in Snape's life who could have got him away from the dark arts, but instead losing her to his rival sent him farther on the wrong path causing him to be come a death eater and unknowingly sending Voldemort to kill her.

That is why I think Snape was still bitter towards Sirus and Lupin and it aided him in being a double agent. The best lies have some truth to them. Snape used his old hatred for James to pretend to hate Harry. ( He could not have befriended Harry the way Lupin did with 'fellow' death eaters' children around and still claim to be on Voldemort's side).

[sekhmetlion]

This what I was getting at. Staying on at Hogwarts is, IMO, what froze Snape at a certain point in his emotional and psychological development, and is what caused him to be unable (unwilling?) to move on with his life.

No, not have fun. But grow up himself, mature, learn more about who exactly Severus Snape was. Do something more in line with his temperament than teach. He became a member of the Order at some point; he could have been one of the external Harry guards rather than being immured in Hogwarts. He may have had a chance to learn how to make some other place and some other career his home...

Agree on both. While I don't think Dumbledore left Severus at Hogwarts with the purpose of avoiding him to grow up, (after all DD himself remained at Hogwarts and never managed to overcome the love dissaster of his young years) this, staying at Hogwarts was an obstacle for such an introverted person in order to grow up emotionally. Had he had another job, perhaps he could have been forced into different situations, and different kinds of people and slowly leaving behind his Hogwarts experiences, however as introverted as Snape is, he would probably managed to choose a job in which he had even less human contact.
Other and bigger problem that I see with Snape working at Hogwarts, is that adults there, seem to be themselves stuck with his personal lives, we know by Rowling, that few Hogwarts teachers are married, so that would make Snape situation easier, being the most common there (easier but not better for him). In a way, gave him the excuse to not look for another person, after all it was not socially required from him.

Things may have been different if he was forced (because I don't think he would have chosen it in his own will) into a group of people with family, and with access to unmarried woman (some kind of ministry job or St.Mungo job that is not isolated from human race) that would make him miss what others have (in the present, not what James Potter had) and give the chance for a unmarried woman to get involved with him.
While in an environment as Hogwarts, would be very difficult to start a relationship (students mocking and gossiping, staff gossiping... lack of availiable women, lack of drive because your fellows don't have partners either...) even if he wanted to.

[ReelBigFish]

Originally Posted by KendraD

I used to think that Snape was needlessly stuck in the past, but look at how the past affected Snape's life. No, I do not think after Lily died he would be able to live with himself if he was not doing what only he could to protect Lily's son.Yet, he could have had a better life, one with a lot less danger and Lily in it (if not his wife, at least still his best friend).

After re-reading the series I looked at Snape's actions differently. I thought that he was very bitter for holding a grudge against a dead man and taking it out on his son. But knowing the full story I think that Snape blamed James, Sirus, and Lupin for him losing Lily as his best friend and later forever. If they would have just let him be after taking the O.W.L., Lily never would have had to come to his defense probably making fifteen year old Severus embarrassed that a girl, the girl that he liked coming to his rescue causing him to retaliate with the unforgivable word that was the last straw. Lily was probably the only one in Snape's life who could have got him away from the dark arts, but instead losing her to his rival sent him farther on the wrong path causing him to be come a death eater and unknowingly sending Voldemort to kill her.

That is why I think Snape was still bitter towards Sirus and Lupin and it aided him in being a double agent. The best lies have some truth to them. Snape used his old hatred for James to pretend to hate Harry. ( He could not have befriended Harry the way Lupin did with 'fellow' death eaters' children around and still claim to be on Voldemort's side).

Are you suggesting that James and Sirius are responsible for Snapes actions and behaviour?? If so I could not disagree more they had nothing to do with him and Lily not being friends that was down to Snape and his behaviour. Lily tried to get him away from the Dark Arts and Snape chose not to listen to her before SWM. It was Snape alone who was responsible for his choices. He did not lose Lily to anyone - he drove her away. She did not date James for a long time after SWM. Snape was already on the wrong path and it was not up to Lily to save him.

I truly think Snape hated Harry and never cared about him at all. Snape did not IMP pretend to hate Harry he genuinely hated Harry for what he represented - Lilys true love for James. I also do not believe he was at all interested in befriending Harry because he could not see past the external and see Harry for a person not just the mirror image of James.

At the end of the day Snape made a conscious decision of his own volition to become a Death Eater and it is not anyone elses fault at all.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by ReelBigFish

Are you suggesting that James and Sirius are responsible for Snapes actions and behaviour?? If so I could not disagree more they had nothing to do with him and Lily not being friends that was down to Snape and his behaviour. Lily tried to get him away from the Dark Arts and Snape chose not to listen to her before SWM. It was Snape alone who was responsible for his choices. He did not lose Lily to anyone - he drove her away.

I think it is being suggested that it was the frustration and embarassment of being harassed, stupefied, gagged on suds, hung upside down and having your underwear removed in front of your schoolmates that may have caused Severus to lose his cool and say a really bad word.

I'm afraid that I would have to strongly disagree that Severus was responsible for yelling the word "Mudblood," and claim "midigating circumstances." In order to be "responsible" for something you have to be in full control of your faculties, and, IMO, Severus was not at the moment he yelled that word. I think it was a totally human response to be angry and strike out at a time like that. Unfortunately, it was Lily that he struck out at. I think you would have to agree, seeing the scene by the entrance to Gryffindor Common Room, that Severus was truly sorry and would never have done that on purpose, especially to Lily.

I don't excuse his use of the word, but, in times of stress we are not always able to pick the words that come out of our mouths. I would doubt that there is anyone who has not said something mean or hurtful in a moment of sheer and total frustration and then been wholely and truly sorry the moment the words crossed their lips.

It is times like those, like Ron telling Harry in DH that he didn't have to worry about his parents because they were dead, that truly tests a friendship. Harry forgave Ron over and over and over again, as did Hermione. But, that is for another thread.

She did not date James for a long time after SWM. Snape was already on the wrong path and it was not up to Lily to save him.

Could you provide a canon timeline that shows us this? I've never seen an actual amount of time given for the Lily/James dating thing after SWM. They could have started dating the next day, as far as I can tell. We are not told.

As for it not being up to Lily to save him, no, it wasn't. But, it was Lily who kept reassuring him that they were BFF's. I would think she would care about him and what he was getting into rather than pointing out how she was always having to make excuses for him.

I truly think Snape hated Harry and never cared about him at all. Snape did not IMP pretend to hate Harry he genuinely hated Harry for what he represented - Lilys true love for James. I also do not believe he was at all interested in befriending Harry because he could not see past the external and see Harry for a person not just the mirror image of James.

I would have to disagree, again. I don't think it was "Lily's true love for James" that caused Severus to dislike Harry at first, but was Harry's physical likeness to James. IMO, it was a constant reminder to Severus of the humiliations he'd suffered at the hands of Harry's father. Yes, it was petty. Yes, it was major character flaw that he could not get over that and move on, at least for a long time. But, I also feel that he did eventually move on and came to respect Harry for his courage and loyalty to hs friends.

I refer to the memories he gave Harry as he was dying. I truly believe it was his way of saying he was sorry, something that Severus Snape could have never brought himself to do for many years. I feel that his dying wish was for Harry to understand him and forgive him, which he obviously did, since he referred to him as "the bravest man I ever knew," and named his son after him.

At the end of the day Snape made a conscious decision of his own volition to become a Death Eater and it is not anyone elses fault at all.

No one, that I've seen, has tried to totally excuse Severus' actions, either the day of SWM, or as far as his being a DE and joining up with Voldemort. What we are trying to do is to go in depth and maybe understand why. There is a huge difference in "understanding" and "condoning." (While I might understand that someone would steal if they were hungry, stealing is still wrong and I do not condone it.) As I said, Severus was a flawed human who made mistakes, felt remorse, then tried to make amends. What more could be asked?

[ReelBigFish]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I think it is being suggested that it was the frustration and embarassment of being harassed, stupefied, gagged on suds, hung upside down and having your underwear removed in front of your schoolmates that may have caused Severus to lose his cool and say a really bad word.

I'm afraid that I would have to strongly disagree that Severus was responsible for yelling the word "Mudblood," and claim "midigating circumstances." In order to be "responsible" for something you have to be in full control of your faculties, and, IMO, Severus was not at the moment he yelled that word. I think it was a totally human response to be angry and strike out at a time like that. Unfortunately, it was Lily that he struck out at. I think you would have to agree, seeing the scene by the entrance to Gryffindor Common Room, that Severus was truly sorry and would never have done that on purpose, especially to Lily.

I don't excuse his use of the word, but, in times of stress we are not always able to pick the words that come out of our mouths. I would doubt that there is anyone who has not said something mean or hurtful in a moment of sheer and total frustration and then been wholely and truly sorry the moment the words crossed their lips.

It is times like those, like Ron telling Harry in DH that he didn't have to worry about his parents because they were dead, that truly tests a friendship. Harry forgave Ron over and over and over again, as did Hermione. But, that is for another thread.



Could you provide a canon timeline that shows us this? I've never seen an actual amount of time given for the Lily/James dating thing after SWM. They could have started dating the next day, as far as I can tell. We are not told.

As for it not being up to Lily to save him, no, it wasn't. But, it was Lily who kept reassuring him that they were BFF's. I would think she would care about him and what he was getting into rather than pointing out how she was always having to make excuses for him.



I would have to disagree, again. I don't think it was "Lily's true love for James" that caused Severus to dislike Harry at first, but was Harry's physical likeness to James. IMO, it was a constant reminder to Severus of the humiliations he'd suffered at the hands of Harry's father. Yes, it was petty. Yes, it was major character flaw that he could not get over that and move on, at least for a long time. But, I also feel that he did eventually move on and came to respect Harry for his courage and loyalty to hs friends.

I refer to the memories he gave Harry as he was dying. I truly believe it was his way of saying he was sorry, something that Severus Snape could have never brought himself to do for many years. I feel that his dying wish was for Harry to understand him and forgive him, which he obviously did, since he referred to him as "the bravest man I ever knew," and named his son after him.



No one, that I've seen, has tried to totally excuse Severus' actions, either the day of SWM, or as far as his being a DE and joining up with Voldemort. What we are trying to do is to go in depth and maybe understand why. There is a huge difference in "understanding" and "condoning." (While I might understand that someone would steal if they were hungry, stealing is still wrong and I do not condone it.) As I said, Severus was a flawed human who made mistakes, felt remorse, then tried to make amends. What more could be asked?

If you read the post above mine which I was responding to that poster did suggest that Snape became a Death Eater because of SWM.

As for James and Lily the canon states they began dating in their 7th Year and SWM was in their 5th Year - this is in OOTP when Harry is talking to Sirius and Lupin

"How come she married him Harry asked miserably. "She hated him.

"Nah she didn't," said Sirius.

"She started going out with him in seventh year: said Lupin.

To me that is Canon.

I truly see nothing in Snapes words or behaviour to indicate that he cared for Harry and in fact the strongest evidence he does not is when he is asked outright by DD and shows his patronus. Snape only cared for himself and in a strange way for Lily.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Of course that promise on the hilltop came before Lily died.

Oops, my bad, should have checked the book first! Yes, of course, and my point still stands, that he turned his life around as a result of her death.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I think it is being suggested that it was the frustration and embarassment of being harassed, stupefied, gagged on suds, hung upside down and having your underwear removed in front of your schoolmates that may have caused Severus to lose his cool and say a really bad word.

The threat from James to remove Sev's underwear came after Lily had exited the scene.

Could you provide a canon timeline that shows us this? I've never seen an actual amount of time given for the Lily/James dating thing after SWM. They could have started dating the next day, as far as I can tell. We are not told.

We are. In OotP, it says they began dating in their seventh year, which is two years after SWM.

As for it not being up to Lily to save him, no, it wasn't. But, it was Lily who kept reassuring him that they were BFF's. I would think she would care about him and what he was getting into rather than pointing out how she was always having to make excuses for him.

She did. She tells him, and she is clearly anxious about the issue, that she is worried about his association with Mulciber and Avery. Sev brushes it off.

As I said, Severus was a flawed human who made mistakes, felt remorse, then tried to make amends.

My take on him too.

[TreacleTartlet]

Lily was probably the only good influence Severus had at school, and losing her as a friend I think did seal his fate to become a DE. Not that I am blaming Lily for this, as it was ultimately Snape's choice. He could have turned his back on his budding DE friends earlier, but didn't see the danger of going down that path. However, we know from his turning against Voldemort that he later deeply regretted this choice.

As for what Snape thought of Harry, I do think he grew to care about what happened to him, even if he still could not come to like Harry. A person can thoroughly dislike another, but ultimately still care if that person is going to be harmed or to be killed. It is a basic human instinct, it is a part of our humanity. We instinctively reach out to help strangers in the street if they fall. I think we see that Severus lost some of this basic instinct whilst he was a DE, afterall there is no place for compassion when one is a DE. Yet, in the Pensieve memories we are told that Severus saves those he can, which in turn tells us that he indeed has compassion,and the human instinct to care for others.

When Severus is told by Dumbledore that Harry must die at the hands of Voldemort, his reaction is that of horror and he protests.

Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.

“You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?”

“Don’t be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched die?”

“Lately, only those whom I could not save,” said Snape.(DH, The Prince's Tale)

Dumbledore's question here makes me think that he hadn't realised just how far Snape had come along the path of redemption. That he hadn't realised that, Severus had regained his natural instinct to care and wouldn't watch people die if he could save them.

Dumbledore follows this with the question of whether Snape cares for Harry. But instead of answering the question with a straight answer, Snape produces his Patronus. This action struck me as protesting too much, and that Snape himself was in denial that he did indeed care about Harry's fate. In fact, I think that it is only when Severus is lying dying on the floor of the Shreiking Shack that he realises that he cares about the fate of this boy who he still dislikes immmensely, and why he gave Harry so many extraneous memories. Memories that are intensely personal and tell the secrets he once wanted no one to know. At the time he thinks Harry also is about to die, and I think he feels he owed Harry the truth.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by ReelBigFish

If you read the post above mine which I was responding to that poster did suggest that Snape became a Death Eater because of SWM.

As for James and Lily the canon states they began dating in their 7th Year and SWM was in their 5th Year - this is in OOTP when Harry is talking to Sirius and Lupin

"How come she married him Harry asked miserably. "She hated him.

"Nah she didn't," said Sirius.

"She started going out with him in seventh year: said Lupin.

To me that is Canon.

I truly see nothing in Snapes words or behaviour to indicate that he cared for Harry and in fact the strongest evidence he does not is when he is asked outright by DD and shows his patronus. Snape only cared for himself and in a strange way for Lily.

You are right about the canon. My apologies. But, I still strongly disagree that Severus only cared for himself. We certainly differ on that. I'm not sure what the Patronus has to do with Severus "hating" Harry as he lies dying on the floor of the Shrieking Shack, pouring out memories that would help Harry to understand him, and possibly forgive him for the wrongs he'd done and to show that he'd made great effort to atone for those wrongs. To me, this is a clear indication of caring. I guess it's a matter of interpretation.

Originally Posted by Pearl Took

She did. She tells him, and she is clearly anxious about the issue, that she is worried about his association with Mulciber and Avery. Sev brushes it off.

I got a different feeling from that scene. It seemed to me she was a lot more worried about having to make excuses and apologize for Severus than she was about his wellbeing.

She makes it clear then, during the first discussin we see, and, also after SWM, that it's a great burden to her to have to keep apologizing to her friends for Severus because of his hanging around with Mulciber and Avery. She says they use Dark Magic, but she doesn't follow up by indicating any concern for Severus, only concern for her standing with all of her friends. "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." I'd hope at least one of her friends, Severus, himself, would understand why she talked to him.

I'm not sure Severus brushed off her comments in that first scene, or became so enthralled by her criticizim of James that he just dropped the subject to bask in that for a bit. Harry notices the change in Severus demeanor while viewing the memory.

With the pantsing, I might think that having his underwear showing and having attention called to it was probably stressful enough to elicit a few unsavory words, even if it wasn't removed until after Lily left.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by KendraD

That is why I think Snape was still bitter towards Sirus and Lupin and it aided him in being a double agent. The best lies have some truth to them. Snape used his old hatred for James to pretend to hate Harry. ( He could not have befriended Harry the way Lupin did with 'fellow' death eaters' children around and still claim to be on Voldemort's side).

I think that's a good point, and it's helpful to look at it through Voldemort's eyes to understand how Snape could fool the Dark Lord.

Sirius was seen by the DEs and Voldemort as a Blood Traitor and someone who turned against his Pureblood Slytherin family to join the Order. So the fact that Snape disliked him would only work in his favor.

Lupin was a werewolf, and we know how Voldemort felt about him because he mentions it in Dark Lord Ascending. He wanted him dead. Voldemort never saw Werewolves as equals, even though he didn't mind using Fenrir and others as employees.

Harry looked just like James in appearance, so it wasn't much of a stretch for Snape to project an old hatred onto him while at the same time protecting him. Projecting, but Protecting, I guess you could say.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Lupin was a werewolf, and we know how Voldemort felt about him because he mentions it in Dark Lord Ascending. He wanted him dead. Voldemort never saw Werewolves as equals, even though he didn't mind using Fenrir and others as employees.

This is also backed up by the fact that Finrir was never allowed to be a full-fledged DE; never got a Dark Mark or a mask...nor Mickey Mouse ears. Nothing. He was a second-class citizen. Of course, he was working only for the perks...so, I don't guess he cared that much as long as he got what he wanted.

I wonder why the werewolves and giants and such would want to side with Voldemort? You'd think they would see he wasn't very trustworthy and realize that once their usefulness was over they would go the way of the Muggles, Mudbloods, and Blood Traitors. But, I guess it was a nice ride while it lasted.