Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

Bold mine. I wouldn't go as far as saying Lily was only interested in Snape out of curiosity for magical world, because then, she would have ditched him middle first year or middle second year, as soon as she settled herself in the WW. However I do think there is a whole part of Snape she didn't like from the begining: the mean part of him, she doesn't like it and she tries to erradicate it, even if she has part in this mean behaviour (because she helped in peeking in Petunia's letter), later on, this behaviour seemed to be increased. But, while not liking meanness isn't bad, it is a defect the fact that she never tried to understand Severus himself, she just accepted what she saw, but never tried to put herelf in his shoes. So when the time came she didn't understand and didn't try to, because he was a social burden to her. As Minerva'sCat said, teenange girls are often very concerned about their social status, and Lily was no exception.
I do think that, had their frienship survived SWM, or had SWM never existed, both would have matured, and seen past those differences. After all, JKR said she could have felt love for Severus hadn't he taken that path in life.
So her friendship for him must have been true, in that point I disagree with MinCat.

IMO, Lily was writing Severus off from the time she was sorted into Gryffindor. That is my opinion, others are welcome to their own, of course, but, to me, the friendship always seemed one-sided, and that Lily wasn't the side.

I did not see any "mean" side to Severus in any of the memories, which is the canon we have to go on. Otherwise, it is hearsay -- Lily says Severus was always going around using the word "Mudblood," but we never see it. Sirius and Lupin say he knew Dark Arts when he arrived at school, etc.

Also, I see nowhere that Severus tells Lily that he's always defending his friendship with her. He doesn't consider his Housemates feelings over their friendship -- and, if Lily was getting pressure from her Gryff Housemates, I think it might be fair to say Severus was probably getting pressure from his.

Once again, in SWM, Severus has been through his O.W.L.S. -- which we are shown was very difficult for him. The he is set upon for no reason, except that "he exists," and, from the fact that he reaches for his wand as soon as he sees Sirius approaching, I interpret that as an indication that this is not the first time.

Then he goes through the petrifying, the soap suds, the Levicorpus (with special attention drawn to his gray underwear -- which I doubt he appreciated. All of this in front of a large group of his schoolmates. If this is not enough to make one lose control of their facualties and shout something they would't normalyl say, I'm not sure what is.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

So, others are responsible for Snape letting his prejudices be heard? Personally, I am very uncomfortable with the implications of this - it seems to basically be "don't upset Snape or make him angry or he will have to throw disgusting racial epithets at others". It's taking responsibility away from the person who actually used the racist word.

No, they are responsible for harrassing and tormenting him because "he exists." The treatment he underwent during SWM was a lot more that just "upsetting," and, I believe it was meant to be as cruel and demeaning as it was. I'm not sure how this type of treatment can be equated with just trying to make him upset or angry. This was an extreme, as was his retort.

While neither is defensable, he should not have been tortured in front of his schoolmates and he should not have used the word "Mudblood," I can have a bit more understanding for the victim of the torture than for the instigators.

By the time Snape threw that racist epithet at Lily, he had been let down on the ground. One of the Marauders told him he was lucky Lily was there to help him. It was at that point, and not when he was in the air that he called his best friend a "filthy little Mudblood".

On the ground or in the air, I hardly think he'd had time to come to himself and be in control of what he was saying. It was in response to another taunt that he made the Mudblood statement. Then Lily leaves and the torture continues.

That was only in the movie. In the book, in canon, Harry yells that his parents are dead, Ron yells back that his could be going the same way.

I don't see much difference. The same meaning is there: Harry and Hermoine don't have to worry about their families, as they are out of the way. But, Harry's are dead as a result of trying to protect him, and Hermione's have had their memories erased and know nothing of her. IMO, throwing that at them was very cruel, no matter how it was worded.

I won't quote the entire scene, as the arugment goes on for pages, but there are many insulting remarks thrown back and forth and the boys were reaching for their wands when Hermione interceeded. Even though this scene is a huge strain on the trio's friendship, I don't think anyone can hold any of them responsible for being upset, and that hurtful comments were exchanged, considering what they were going through. They all truly cared about each other and would not have said the hurtful things they did under normal conditions.

The point I was making is that everyone, under the right circumstances, can lose control and say very hurtful things they don't mean and are sorry for the moment they've said them. Since we are not shown that Severus did fully buy into the Blood-purist ideology, even when he ws a DE, his use of the term "Mudblood," might be construed as having the worst word he knew slip out under duress.

That he went to such lengths to apologize should show that he really cared for Lily and his remorse for what he'd said.

This does not excuse the use of the word, which had an even worse connotation at that time than when Draco threw it directly at Hermione. But, IMO, it puts that use in full context and shows us how a term he would never have said about his best friend could have slipped out in a moment of sheer and total humiliation and frustration.

IMO, blaming Snape's use of a bigoted slur on others amounts to excusing his actions. If his actions are someone else's fault, that is not holding Snape accountable for his behaviour.

I disagree. It amounts to looking at why he said it in the full context of the moment and not automatically condemning him as a racist because he used the term. The fact that he knew the bigotted slur is his own responsibility. If he'd used it toward Lily in a situation such showing off for his buddies or such, he'd have been in control of his actions and they certainly would have indicated a racist and bigotted bent. But, it was in the middle of most humiliating and terrible incident that is slips out, not under "normal circumstances."

It is the same as looking at any other character's actions in a given scene and trying to understand why they acted as they did. We gain insight and see that all of the characters in the series are flawed in some way or other, some more deeply than others.

[FutureAuthor13]

Originally Posted by Moriath

This is speculative, but do you think he defended her when his Slytherin friends insulted Muggle-borns?

Good question.

I would say, sadly, no. I think Young Snape had a desperate need or desire to 'belong'- and Lucius Malfoy, Mulciber, Avery etc offered him a form of friendship (however possibly weak or deceptive that may have been). Being 'friends' with that sort of gang included being horribly racist towards Muggle-Borns. In my opinion, Snape was almost blinded, to an extent; he was extremely relieved that these people (all who seem to have been strong, distinctive characters during Lily and Snape's time at Hogwarts) actually wanted and appeared to enjoy his company- and Snape would've done almost anything at that young age, I think, to keep that sense of belonging. While doing so, he probably forget, for a significant moment/amount of time that Lily's friendship was much dearer to him.

So, I would say, he probably didn't defend Lily when his friends insulted Muggle-Borns. She most likely wouldn't be present (until SWM) when they started using terms such as Mudbloods so maybe Snape thought, as long as Lily didn't hear about it, he could get away with it.

Also, I don't think Snape's art of masking his emotions was as refined when he was young, so maybe the first time the future DEs insulted Muggleborns, he made an involuntary gesture or sound of protest before quickly covering it up/ brushing it off for fear of being excluded. I'm sure (before SWM), he would always feel a guilty squirm in his stomach at the thought of what he and his friends were doing.

Just my opinion.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by Moriath

What reason would she have to lie? And more importantly, is her statement disproved in the text? As far as I am aware her point stands.

I didn't mean to say she lied. I just said we don't actually see this and we aren't told whether Lily witnessed this or if it was told to her. That is what makes me skeptical.

I wonder, with Lily under so much criticism for being an inadequate friend, what did Snape do for their friendship? And I'm not referring to his admirable actions after Lily called it quits. While they were friends he didn't seem to try to put himself in her position. He didn't seem to take her justified fears seriously. This is speculative, but do you think he defended her when his Slytherin friends insulted Muggle-borns?

Severus introduced Lily to the Wizarding World as a child. He spent hours telling her about it and trying to reassure her that she would do really well because she is so talented. He tried to protect her from the reality of the Blood-supremisist beliefs by glossing over her question as to whether being Muggle-born would have any bearing on her status. To me, this shows that he didn't think so and that she shouldn't be worried about it. He was a naieve child at that time, IMO, and didn't realize the real danger she would be in.

IMO, he didn't try to put himself into her position because he looked at her as an equal and did not feel there was a reason for her to fear. Maybe he felt his Housemates would not bother her in school because they knew how much he cared for her.

Every time we are shown Lily and Severus arguing Lily seems in command of the discussion. She is choosing the subject and Severus is expected to defend his actions. When he does try to bring up Lupin and the Marauders, she dismisses him by stating she'd heard Lupin is "ill," and by answering him with another question: why is he so interest in them? He states his concerns and explains why -- he's worried about her safety and her being made a fool of. As he stares at her after mentioning James' name, she blushes. Even though she calls James names and criticizes him, IMO, this blush is the first indication she is interested in James.

She has no idea about the tunnel incident except what she has heard. But, she does not take Severus' word that it was not his life James was worried about, but the Marauders getting into trouble. This seems to not register with Lily. She actually berates him for his lack of gratitude.

Lily states what Mulciber tried to do to Mary McDonald was evil, but, compared to what? We are never shown or told what that was, so there is not way to judge. I'm not sure if it was anymore evil than SWM.

As far as defending her to his Housemates -- yes, I do believe that he would have and did. I think he probably got as much flak from them as Lily did from the Gryffindors.

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

Good question.

I would say, sadly, no. I think Young Snape had a desperate need or desire to 'belong'- and Lucius Malfoy, Mulciber, Avery etc offered him a form of friendship (however possibly weak or deceptive that may have been). Being 'friends' with that sort of gang included being horribly racist towards Muggle-Borns. In my opinion, Snape was almost blinded, to an extent; he was extremely relieved that these people (all who seem to have been strong, distinctive characters during Lily and Snape's time at Hogwarts) actually wanted and appeared to enjoy his company- and Snape would've done almost anything at that young age, I think, to keep that sense of belonging. While doing so, he probably forget, for a significant moment/amount of time that Lily's friendship was much dearer to him.

So, I would say, he probably didn't defend Lily when his friends insulted Muggle-Borns. She most likely wouldn't be present (until SWM) when they started using terms such as Mudbloods so maybe Snape thought, as long as Lily didn't hear about it, he could get away with it.

Also, I don't think Snape's art of masking his emotions was as refined when he was young, so maybe the first time the future DEs insulted Muggleborns, he made an involuntary gesture or sound of protest before quickly covering it up/ brushing it off for fear of being excluded. I'm sure (before SWM), he would always feel a guilty squirm in his stomach at the thought of what he and his friends were doing.

Just my opinion.

While I agree that Severus may have let insults about other Muggle-borns slide -- may have participated to feel that he fit in -- where Lily was concerned, I feel he drew the line. She was off limits, and, I think his other Housemates were aware of that. I don't relate this with any noble act on their parts, just that if they were trying to win Severus over to the DE's they would have tried to turn him away from Lily subtly so as not to alienate him. I'm sure, after SWM, they had a field day, though, and did everything to convince him he was better off without her. (My guess is that the same was going on in Gryffindor House with Lily and her friends.)

I do think you're right about Severus feeling guilty about what his firends were doing, but he couldn't verbalize this to Lily. He never seemed to be able to verbally communicate with her unless he was talking about magic. In a discussion or argument, we always see him at a disadvantage because he, IMO, is so afraid of offending her he's hesitant to say what he feels. Instead he just stammers and stutters and makes little sense.

When he does take a step and try, it comes out all wrong -- and echo of their first meeting -- and he ends up backpeddling and trying to assuage her feelings rather than going in-depth in his explanation of his concerns for her.

I see Severus in the same mold as Regulus Black. He went into the DE's based on a glorification of them by others (Regulus family, Sev's Housemates), with neither entirely knowing what he was getting into. Once they were in and the true evil of the group and their goals was realized, I see each as laying low, doing what they had to to keep alive, and waiting for a chance to get out -- hopefully alive. I think they both would have left eventually, but the threats to someone they loved gave each an impetus to act. (I see Draco differently. He may have gone in not realizing fully what he was getting into, but, IMO Draco was a coward and would have been like his father and tolerated anything just to stay alive and keep his family alive.)

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I wonder, with Lily under so much criticism for being an inadequate friend, what did Snape do for their friendship? And I'm not referring to his admirable actions after Lily called it quits. While they were friends he didn't seem to try to put himself in her position. He didn't seem to take her justified fears seriously.

Something that always struck me in their relationship at Hogwarts was how Lily asked Severus to explain what he thought or felt, but Severus never asked Lily about what she thought or felt. To me, it seems that he doesn't really care what goes on inside her head.

This is speculative, but do you think he defended her when his Slytherin friends insulted Muggle-borns?

No, unfortunately. Severus was going along with insulting Muggleborns, so it was something he was into. I think he may have felt uncomfortable if they directly brought up Lily, though. She was a real liability to his social status within the group, in my opinion, and that may have been one of the things that fueled his desire to put her in her place, so to speak. I think it was just like he could get away with asking Voldemort to spare Lily by claiming that he desired her; I think he could tell his friends that she was nothing more than a game he was playing and that he could control her if need be. I think that thinking about her in such terms was probably what lead to him disparaging her in front of the school-- I think it had been there in his mind for a long while that he needed to control her, and now how dare she with her birth status embarrass him by thinking she was good enough to defend him when it was only risking his status with his other friends, so he lashed out at her.

[LyraLovegood]

I don't think Severus defended Lily regarding her blood status, either. I don't think that "Mudblood" was a word he wouldn't normally say, either; I think he used it among other Slytherins regularly, and it was only in Lily's presence that he was careful not to say it. I think it was that careful control that slipped during SWM. I don't think it was the first time he'd ever said it.

I also don't think The Lightning Struck Tower was the first time he'd ever used the AK.

I see Severus in the same mold as Regulus Black. He went into the DE's based on a glorification of them by others (Regulus family, Sev's Housemates), with neither entirely knowing what he was getting into. Once they were in and the true evil of the group and their goals was realized, I see each as laying low, doing what they had to to keep alive, and waiting for a chance to get out -- hopefully alive. I think they both would have left eventually, but the threats to someone they loved gave each an impetus to act. (I see Draco differently. He may have gone in not realizing fully what he was getting into, but, IMO Draco was a coward and would have been like his father and tolerated anything just to stay alive and keep his family alive.)

I see Severus more in the mold of Lucius. Fully aware and participating in what the Death Eaters were doing, up until the one person he loved most -- his only son -- was threatened by Voldemort's rise to power. Lucius turned from the Dark Lord to try to save Draco. Severus turned from the Dark Lord because he tried to save Lily and failed. That's the way I see it.

I see the reasons why Severus sunk so low, but I still think he made choices. I still think that there were influences in both directions for him when he was a student, and he chose to place the opinions of the other Slytherin students above the advice of his best friend, the Headmaster of Hogwarts, and possibly even his own Head of House. Because Horace Slughorn was never a Death Eater, was he?

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Something that always struck me in their relationship at Hogwarts was how Lily asked Severus to explain what he thought or felt, but Severus never asked Lily about what she thought or felt. To me, it seems that he doesn't really care what goes on inside her head..

Here are the scenes we are shown with Lily and Severus:

Scene by the riverbank - Severus and Lily are talking about magic and Hogwarts, Petunia is eavesdropping: After discussing the WW for a bit Severus grows quiet. Lily asks how things are at home and if his parents are still arguing. He tells her they are, but he’ll be gone off to school soon. She asks if his dad likes magic. He says his dad doesn’t’ like much of anything. Lily follows this statement by Severus, not with any words of comfort, but, by asking him to tell her about the Dementors, again.

While Severus is reassuring her that she will not be sent to Azkaban for using involuntary magic because she doesn’t have a wand yet, Petunia loses her footing and falls out of her hiding spot. Severus snaps at her, angry that she has been spying on them. Petunia insults his clothing and a branch falls on her and she runs off crying.

Lily immediately turns on Severus. We know that he brought the branch down, but, it isn’t clear whether it was intentional or because he was angry, like Harry blowing up Aunt Marge. But, Lily isn’t interested in whether he did it intentionally or not. She glares at him with a “burning look” and goes after her sister.

Scene at the train station - Severus is standing with his mother “a little apart” from Lily and Petunia. We have seen no indication that Severus has been introduced to Lily’s parents or invited into their family group (as we see Harry gathered up by Mrs. Weasley). Lily’s parents seem unaware of Severus, which, to me indicates they have never met him even though he’s been inside their home. As Lily and Petunia argue and Petunia becomes more insulting, Lily brings up about the letter from Dumbledore. When Petunia pins her down, Lily glances at Severus, successfully transferring some of the blame for reading the letter to him. Petunia calls Lily a freak and flounces off to join her parents.

Scene on the train - Severus has his robes on and is looking for Lily. He finds her, but she doesn’t want to talk to him because Petunia is angry with her that they found and read the letter. He says, “So what?” Lily replies with a “look of deep dislike.” Severus almost calls Petunia “only a Muggle,” but stops himself. As we see with Hagrid, McGonagall, and most other wizards, Muggles are generally considered not quite up to standard by magic folk. So, by using that phrase, he would have only mirrored the thoughts of the majority of the Wizarding World, not, IMO, racism.

Severus tries to distract Lily from her sadness by pointing out that they are finally on their way to Hogwarts, which does seem to get a half-smile from her.

This is followed by the first meeting with James and Sirius and ends with Lily suggesting they leave and find another compartment. To be fair, she had also fixed James and Sirius with a “look of dislike” while they were insulting Severus.

Scene in Hogwarts’ courtyard - Severus is looking for reassurance that he and Lily are still “best friends.” She says they are but that she doesn’t like some of the people he’s been hanging around with. She states that she detests Avery, and, especially Mulciber, and cites the Mary Macdonald incident for emphasis. She makes it clear she already has her opinion set on Mulciber: “What do see in him, Sev, he’s creepy!” Severus says it was “just a laugh, that’s all,” and goes on to ask about the things James and the Marauders do. Lily deflects Sev's question and makes no effort to answer it. Instead she asks what that has to do with anything. Severus explains they sneak out at night and brings up Lupin’s disappearances. Lily defends Lupin with, “He’s ill…” “They say he’s ill.”

When Severus pursues the topic she dismisses his concerns about Lupin and suggests he is obsessed with the Marauders. He tells her he’s just trying to show her they are not as wonderful as everyone thinks. Her reaction is to blush as he waits for a reply. Then, she defends them by saying they don’t use Dark Magic, and throws back at him how ungrateful he is when James saved his life. Severus can’t explain much as he is sworn to secrecy. He starts to tell her, “I won’t let you…” but she cuts across him once again, not letting him finish his sentence. He indicates, when he can finish, that he doesn’t want to see her made a fool of and that James “fancies” her. She reassures him by calling James several unflattering names, then continues on telling Severus that she can’t understand how he can be friends with Avery and Mulciber who are evil. “Evil.”

The next two scenes are SWM and the scene in front of the Gryffindor common room entrance. Lily does not ask about Severus thoughts or feelings in either of these, so I won’t summarize them.

I don't see in any of these scenes where Lily asks for Severus' thoughts or feelings, other than a brief question about his home life. When she asks what he sees in Mulciber and Avery, I think it's pretty clear she has already made her statements about them, so, IMO, she is showing that she's not really interested in what he thinks but in him knowing how she feels.

No, unfortunately. Severus was going along with insulting Muggleborns, so it was something he was into. I think he may have felt uncomfortable if they directly brought up Lily, though. She was a real liability to his social status within the group, in my opinion, and that may have been one of the things that fueled his desire to put her in her place, so to speak. I think it was just like he could get away with asking Voldemort to spare Lily by claiming that he desired her; I think he could tell his friends that she was nothing more than a game he was playing and that he could control her if need be. I think that thinking about her in such terms was probably what lead to him disparaging her in front of the school-- I think it had been there in his mind for a long while that he needed to control her, and now how dare she with her birth status embarrass him by thinking she was good enough to defend him when it was only risking his status with his other friends, so he lashed out at her

Again, we have no actual scenes of Severus insulting Muggleborns and, while I'm not saying Lily is lying, she doesn't say "I see you tormenting them," or, "I hear you calling them 'Mudbloods." It isn't made clear if her information is first-hand or if Severus is being blamed for something his Housemates are doing while he is with them. So, I'm not convinced we can conclude that he was "into" this.

Voldemort was the one who took Severus concern for Lily to mean he desired her because Voldemort had no capacity to understand love. Severus didn't try to clarify this because, IMO, it would have meant nothing to Voldemort and would have been a waste of time. Instead, I think Severus figured if that would save Lily's life, let him think it.

I'm not sure how the conclusion that she was a liability to his social standing was reached when it is Lily who tells Severus that she has been defending him for years and that none of her friends can understand why she even talks to him. She is the one who indicates he is a liability. He never says or in any other way indicates that she is, that I see.

In every conversation that I cited, Lily is in control. There is no effort on Severus part to control her. His major concerns seem to be: that she might be hurt by a werewolf, that she might be made a fool of by James Potter, and that he might lose her friendship.

I doubt that during SWM, while having his wand snatched away, being petrified, being gagged on soapsuds, being hung upside down and attention drawn to his underwear that Severus was thinking to himself, "Now is a great chance to put Lily Evans in her place."

If she was such a liability and he only wanted to put her in her place, I wouldn't imagine him going and camping out beside the Gryffindor common room entrance until she would come out so he could apologize. If his goal was to put her in her place, I would see him in his own common room with his "friends" celebrating his huge coup of calling her a Mudblood in front of half the school. Sorry, I'm just not seeing that at all.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I don't see in any of these scenes where Lily asks for Severus' thoughts or feelings, other than a brief question about his home life. When she asks what he sees in Mulciber and Avery, I think it's pretty clear she has already made her statements about them, so, IMO, she is showing that she's not really interested in what he thinks but in him knowing how she feels.

I do think she wanted Severus to be interested in her opinions, but she also gives Severus a chance to express how he feels about Mulciber and Avery with her question. He takes the time to reply that he thinks them using Dark Arts on Mary was a laugh . I don't think that was the best way to address Lily's concerns if he cared about her opinion. He doesn't question her about her being concerned about his friends, just changes the subject.

Again, we have no actual scenes of Severus insulting Muggleborns and, while I'm not saying Lily is lying, she doesn't say "I see you tormenting them," or, "I hear you calling them 'Mudbloods." It isn't made clear if her information is first-hand or if Severus is being blamed for something his Housemates are doing while he is with them. So, I'm not convinced we can conclude that he was "into" this.

Lily is saying this directly to Severus, who knows what he has been up to. She is not bringing this to some third party who doesn't know what's what. Severus can deny it easily enough if it is not true. He lets it stand as true.

Voldemort was the one who took Severus concern for Lily to mean he desired her because Voldemort had no capacity to understand love. Severus didn't try to clarify this because, IMO, it would have meant nothing to Voldemort and would have been a waste of time. Instead, I think Severus figured if that would save Lily's life, let him think it.

No one was a fly on the wall for that conversation. Voldemort says after Lily was dead that Snape told him other, worthier women would do, so I think there is canon that Snape lied about his feelings for Lily to Voldemort on at least one occasion. I think Snape did lie, and Voldemort's lack of understanding about love made it easier.

I'm not sure how the conclusion that she was a liability to his social standing was reached when it is Lily who tells Severus that she has been defending him for years and that none of her friends can understand why she even talks to him. She is the one who indicates he is a liability. He never says or in any other way indicates that she is, that I see.

Because I think she was a liability to his social standing in the Death Eater wannabe gang, in a very real way. She was a Muggleborn, and they were the Death Eater wannabes. I think Severus wanted both Lily and to be part of that gang. I don't think he was going to get very far in his gang if he was trying to convince them that Muggleborns were people too and Lily really was quite nice. I don't think he took that tack at all.

In every conversation that I cited, Lily is in control. There is no effort on Severus part to control her. His major concerns seem to be: that she might be hurt by a werewolf, that she might be made a fool of by James Potter, and that he might lose her friendship.

I disagree, and have alreasy been over why.

I doubt that during SWM, while having his wand snatched away, being petrified, being gagged on soapsuds, being hung upside down and attention drawn to his underwear that Severus was thinking to himself, "Now is a great chance to put Lily Evans in her place."

I don't think it was something he thought up on the spur of the moment, but rather something that had been in the back of his mind for a while, that found it's way to the surface right then because he didn't want his Muggleborn friend sticking up for him in front of the whole school and it getting back to his gang.

If she was such a liability and he only wanted to put her in her place, I wouldn't imagine him going and camping out beside the Gryffindor common room entrance until she would come out so he could apologize. If his goal was to put her in her place, I would see him in his own common room with his "friends" celebrating his huge coup of calling her a Mudblood in front of half the school. Sorry, I'm just not seeing that at all.

I think he wanted both Lily and the gang. I don't think he was happy about Lily's reaction, so he wasn't celebrating with his gang. I think if he could have put her in her place and she would have nodded happily and said, "Whatever you want, Severus", then he would have been on cloud nine. But Lily didn't react like that.

[sekhmetlion]

To me Severus did protect and defend Lily in front of their classmates, I cannot see him letting his friends have a go at her. The thing is maybe Lily doesn't know about it because it happens in Slytherin. Actually Snape is not very popular even among slytherins, if he was really into DE and was leader in attacks and not a mere join in, he would have been popular, don't forget he had a real mind, and an attack planned by him would have been terrible, but this is never known to happen, so to me he was just a tag in.
So as a not convinced budding DE he would have defended her, I just can't see him defending her.

IMO, Lily was writing Severus off from the time she was sorted into Gryffindor. That is my opinion, others are welcome to their own, of course, but, to me, the friendship always seemed one-sided, and that Lily wasn't the side.

I did not see any "mean" side to Severus in any of the memories, which is the canon we have to go on. Otherwise, it is hearsay -- Lily says Severus was always going around using the word "Mudblood," but we never see it. Sirius and Lupin say he knew Dark Arts when he arrived at school, etc.

Also, I see nowhere that Severus tells Lily that he's always defending his friendship with her. He doesn't consider his Housemates feelings over their friendship -- and, if Lily was getting pressure from her Gryff Housemates, I think it might be fair to say Severus was probably getting pressure from his.

Once again, in SWM, Severus has been through his O.W.L.S. -- which we are shown was very difficult for him. The he is set upon for no reason, except that "he exists," and, from the fact that he reaches for his wand as soon as he sees Sirius approaching, I interpret that as an indication that this is not the first time.

Then he goes through the petrifying, the soap suds, the Levicorpus (with special attention drawn to his gray underwear -- which I doubt he appreciated. All of this in front of a large group of his schoolmates. If this is not enough to make one lose control of their facualties and shout something they would't normalyl say, I'm not sure what is.

Snape already had a very dark and hard burden due to his treatment at home, and Lily never understood or tried to understand this. That's what I meant with the "mean" side.
And the moment she was sorted into Griffindor she didn't "need" him any more. From then on, she went on with the frienship because Snape didn't give her reasons to cut it off. But then, time arrived when he started putting pressure in the relationship, and she just couldn't support it.
I am not saying that she was trying to get rid of him the moment they set feet at Hogwarts, I am saying that the moment she was settled in Griffindor she had totally the upper hand, in everything, so when the time came, and social pressure was put on her, she didn't see any reason to fight for him.

A very important topic here is what was exactly done to Mary McDonald, because no matter what, I don't think it was near what was made to Snape. But Lily doesn't regard Severus sufferings as important as Gryffindor's sufferings. In other words, she had her mind already set in Gryffindor, and wanted to forget about her slytherin friend, she didn't want to face what Snape was going through because it was too hard, and it would throw some things to her face.

What did Snape do to their frienship?
He did everything that was in his hands until fifth year, when he starts thinking in improoving himself and takes the totally wrong path.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

... Snape already had a very dark and hard burden due to his treatment at home, and Lily never understood or tried to understand this. ...

Lily did try to understand and help Severus with this. When they were little, before Hogwarts, she asked him if his parents were still arguing. She asked about his home life, and did as much as a little girl ten years old could be expected to do: she tried to draw him out and sympathise with him as much as she could with her own completely different experience. She tried to help him, and the impression I get reading that scene is that he didn't want to talk about it, much, and she didn't push him to do so.

This may have been an isolated incident. It also may have been one example of a pattern between the two of them, where Lily would try to draw Severus out of himself and get him to talk about his feelings about his parents, but Severus was reluctant to do so. I don't think Lily can be blamed for Severus' reticence or for his refusal to accept her offer of a listening ear and maybe a shoulder to cry on. Most guys wouldn't, though, I suppose, seeing tears as weakness, and being too macho to accept that type of comfort from a girl.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

Snape already had a very dark and hard burden due to his treatment at home, and Lily never understood or tried to understand this. That's what I meant with the "mean" side.

If Severus's opinion of Lily was that she was not trying hard enough to understand him, and that vthe relationship should be about her trying to understand him rather than them understanding each other, I wonder if that made him feel justified in his view of her as inferior, or made him feel justified in not trying to understand her? I don't think Snape spent time putting himself in other's shoes.

And the moment she was sorted into Griffindor she didn't "need" him any more. From then on, she went on with the frienship because Snape didn't give her reasons to cut it off.

I think it is quite possible that Severus viewed his relationship this way-- that he felt he had to keep Lily dependent on him in some way so he could keep control of her and the relationship, rather than just accepting her friendship as that of an equal.

[RavenStar83]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

This may have been an isolated incident. It also may have been one example of a pattern between the two of them, where Lily would try to draw Severus out of himself and get him to talk about his feelings about his parents, but Severus was reluctant to do so. I don't think Lily can be blamed for Severus' reticence or for his refusal to accept her offer of a listening ear and maybe a shoulder to cry on. Most guys wouldn't, though, I suppose, seeing tears as weakness, and being too macho to accept that type of comfort from a girl.

Given that Snape is pretty secretive even in his adult life (he tends to cover everything up with being very brooding and demeaning, though this could be just his treatment of Harry), I can see this being a pattern between himself and Lily. And his love for Lily he keeps secret from everyone but Dumbledore.


For Snape's case, I don't think it was a case of hiding his feelings from a girl and wanting to be macho (though a lot could be discussed on expressing emotions and gender). Snape has always been very secretive with having a hard time expressing what he feels due to having a rough childhood. Young girls and women have been known to also shut themselves off from people/communicating what they feel due to bad experiences

Originally Posted by oldmothercrow

If Severus's opinion of Lily was that she was not trying hard enough to understand him, and that vthe relationship should be about her trying to understand him rather than them understanding each other, I wonder if that made him feel justified in his view of her as inferior, or made him feel justified in not trying to understand her? I don't think Snape spent time putting himself in other's shoes.

Snape had a hard time understanding other people and in denial of what was bothering Lily. But I doubt he really felt his needs were more important or that it was her job to be there for him. I think that's more of fandom's speculation, whether to argue against Snape or claiming he deserved that much.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I don't think Lily was someone who liked to be controled, though. In fact, I think we see her bristle when Severus tries to tell her what he will or will not allow her to do. It might have felt natural for Severus to try to control her, but that doesn't mean she has to like it or accept it or arrange her life to cater to his desires.

Will respond on the Lily thread.

Originally Posted by Moriath

I wonder, with Lily under so much criticism for being an inadequate friend, what did Snape do for their friendship? And I'm not referring to his admirable actions after Lily called it quits. While they were friends he didn't seem to try to put himself in her position. He didn't seem to take her justified fears seriously. This is speculative, but do you think he defended her when his Slytherin friends insulted Muggle-borns?

I don't see that he could have - he wanted to impress these budding DEs. Defending a Muggleborn would not be the way to curry favour with Lucius Malfoy. I imagine he joined in the insults when it came to other Muggleborn students, but kept quiet when they were verbally bashing Lily.

I don't think he made an effort to understand her concerns -IMO, her concerns are pretty straightforward and very much justified -people who share the sentiments of Mulciber and Avery are murdering Muggleborns because they deem them subhuman and unworthy of magic or even life. I think it's hardly surprising that she would be worried about her friend hanging around people like that, and that her friends would be worried for her hanging around a member of that gang of bigots.

Originally Posted by KendraD

No, I did not mean that Snape was a mere victim of circumstances and not responsible for his own actions. He could not forget the ripple effect caused by being bullied by James and co. (although there were other causes and he chose to act and react to things the way that he did).

Oh. That's a lot clearer. I agree with that. The Marauders were responsible for humiliating Snape; Snape was responsible for his prejudices and for throwing them in Lily's face when she tried to help him.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Then he goes through the petrifying, the soap suds, the Levicorpus (with special attention drawn to his gray underwear -- which I doubt he appreciated. All of this in front of a large group of his schoolmates. If this is not enough to make one lose control of their facualties and shout something they would't normalyl say, I'm not sure what is.

I think it's a slippery slope to start saying others are responsible for Snape's loss of control. Suppose Lily had forgiven him, suppose she later told him she saw him as a friend only? Would that be humiliating and hurtful enough that "Mudblood" would be an "understandable" loss of control? Or when she would be horrified and disgusted with the Dark Mark on his arm, rather than impressed?

While neither is defensable, he should not have been tortured in front of his schoolmates and he should not have used the word "Mudblood," I can have a bit more understanding for the victim of the torture than for the instigators.

And I have a bit more sympathy for a victim of racism than the perpetrator.

I don't see much difference. The same meaning is there: Harry and Hermoine don't have to worry about their families, as they are out of the way. But, Harry's are dead as a result of trying to protect him, and Hermione's have had their memories erased and know nothing of her. IMO, throwing that at them was very cruel, no matter how it was worded.

I think there's a difference in that Ron never ever implied that Harry or Hermione were inferior or subhuman because of their blood - that is exactly what "Mudblood" means.

The point I was making is that everyone, under the right circumstances, can lose control and say very hurtful things they don't mean and are sorry for the moment they've said them. Since we are not shown that Severus did fully buy into the Blood-purist ideology, even when he ws a DE, his use of the term "Mudblood," might be construed as having the worst word he knew slip out under duress.

We aren't? Snape used that racist epithet against Lily. He used it against others. He joined a twisted organisation bent on subjugating Muggleborns. And yet he did not buy into that ideology?

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

I didn't mean to say she lied. I just said we don't actually see this and we aren't told whether Lily witnessed this or if it was told to her. That is what makes me skeptical.

It seems to me that any statement that shows Snape in a negative light is automatically taken as suspect/untrue. And that any statement that reflects well on Snape is automatically taken as true. I find that a confusing way of approaching character analysis.

IMO, he didn't try to put himself into her position because he looked at her as an equal and did not feel there was a reason for her to fear. Maybe he felt his Housemates would not bother her in school because they knew how much he cared for her.

Again, this amounts to making Lily an exception, IMO. It's saying that Lily deserves to be safe only because she matters to Snape. Not because she's a human being, who deserves to be safe. If he held this attitude, it suggests that he considered other Muggleborns fair game for whatever his DE wannabe friends did.

Lily states what Mulciber tried to do to Mary McDonald was evil, but, compared to what? We are never shown or told what that was, so there is not way to judge. I'm not sure if it was anymore evil than SWM.

It is canon that Mulciber went on to become a DE. And that he did terrible things as a DE. I don't think it's that far-fetched to believe that he hurt other students. Especially Muggleborns. You stated above that Snape may have felt that Lily would be safe because she was his friend - in that case, his friends were doing things that Lily needed to be safe from.

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

I see Severus more in the mold of Lucius. Fully aware and participating in what the Death Eaters were doing, up until the one person he loved most -- his only son -- was threatened by Voldemort's rise to power. Lucius turned from the Dark Lord to try to save Draco. Severus turned from the Dark Lord because he tried to save Lily and failed. That's the way I see it.

I see that similarity. I also think that there's the parallel that it was their own actions that put their loved ones in danger -Snape with the prophecy; Lucius was being punished, partly for the Ministry fiasco, and partly for his actions that led to the destruction of the Diary horcrux. I think Snape had more courage than Lucius, though.

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Lily immediately turns on Severus. We know that he brought the branch down, but, it isn’t clear whether it was intentional or because he was angry, like Harry blowing up Aunt Marge. But, Lily isn’t interested in whether he did it intentionally or not. She glares at him with a “burning look” and goes after her sister.

How is it so terrible that Lily went after her sister when she had been injured?

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

To me Severus did protect and defend Lily in front of their classmates, I cannot see him letting his friends have a go at her. The thing is maybe Lily doesn't know about it because it happens in Slytherin. Actually Snape is not very popular even among slytherins, if he was really into DE and was leader in attacks and not a mere join in, he would have been popular, don't forget he had a real mind, and an attack planned by him would have been terrible, but this is never known to happen, so to me he was just a tag in.

In a post yesterday, you argued that Snape was not a mindless follower:

It would take a blind follower to follow such a "command" or statement without judging, and Snape is not a blind follower, he considers himself her equal.

So he mindlessly followed his wannabe DE friends, but could not accept Lily's concerns about said terrorist wannabes?

He did everything that was in his hands until fifth year, when he starts thinking in improoving himself and takes the totally wrong path.

That wrong path amounted to an utter betrayal of Lily, IMO. He was hanging out with people who saw her as subhuman. I can only see that as a betrayal.

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

Lily did try to understand and help Severus with this. When they were little, before Hogwarts, she asked him if his parents were still arguing. She asked about his home life, and did as much as a little girl ten years old could be expected to do: she tried to draw him out and sympathise with him as much as she could with her own completely different experience. She tried to help him, and the impression I get reading that scene is that he didn't want to talk about it, much, and she didn't push him to do so.

I agree. Dropping an upsetting subject when someone doesn't want to talk about it isn't selfish or whatever it's being labelled. IMO, it's tact. It's more sensitive to let a person continue the topic themselves when/if they want to, rather than pushing it if they clearly don't want to talk about it.

[sekhmetlion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion
To me Severus did protect and defend Lily in front of their classmates, I cannot see him letting his friends have a go at her. The thing is maybe Lily doesn't know about it because it happens in Slytherin. Actually Snape is not very popular even among slytherins, if he was really into DE and was leader in attacks and not a mere join in, he would have been popular, don't forget he had a real mind, and an attack planned by him would have been terrible, but this is never known to happen, so to me he was just a tag in.

In a post yesterday, you argued that Snape was not a mindless follower:


Quote:
It would take a blind follower to follow such a "command" or statement without judging, and Snape is not a blind follower, he considers himself her equal.

So he mindlessly followed his wannabe DE friends, but could not accept Lily's concerns about said terrorist wannabes?



Quote:
He did everything that was in his hands until fifth year, when he starts thinking in improoving himself and takes the totally wrong path.

That wrong path amounted to an utter betrayal of Lily, IMO. He was hanging out with people who saw her as subhuman. I can only see that as a betrayal.

I will try to clarify this: he was a follower, but not a blind one, he wanted to join because he wanted the fame and power, but he was not Bellatrix, he wasn't totally brainwhashed, so he could draw a line and leave Lily out of it. True, this is not the most ethical thing to do, but neither is dispatching your long time friend without giving him the opportunity to properly appologize.

I think it's a slippery slope to start saying others are responsible for Snape's loss of control. Suppose Lily had forgiven him, suppose she later told him she saw him as a friend only? Would that be humiliating and hurtful enough that "Mudblood" would be an "understandable" loss of control? Or when she would be horrified and disgusted with the Dark Mark on his arm, rather than impressed?

So if one person attacks you and you fight back and in the fight you accidentally injure a friend, who is to blame? I think it would be the attacker, after all you acted in self-defense.
I don't think Lily deniying romantic love for Snape will ever be a reason for him to act any rude with her, he respected her feelings, it was in these situation when he felt threatened himself that he acted rude.

[LyraLovegood]

Lily states what Mulciber tried to do to Mary McDonald was evil, but, compared to what? We are never shown or told what that was, so there is not way to judge. I'm not sure if it was anymore evil than SWM.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember the text right Lily was comparing what Avery and Mulciber did to Mary, to the kind of things that James and Sirius did to Severus. At least, that's the impression I remember getting when I read it. She weems to think that the way the Marauders bully students they don't like is arrogant (I'm not exactly sure exactly what "toe-rag" means as she uses it, as I've never encountered it anywhere else, though I can guess from the context), but that what Avery and Mulciber do to Muggle-born students is evil. To me, that's Lily making a comparison where the teens Severus wants to like and accept him are worse than the Marauders. And I would agree: teens who want to be Death Eaters when they grow up are worse than teens who bully other students when they're young and dumb, but join the Order of the Phoenix when their heads have been deflated a little. Severus, on the other hand, treats the son of James much worse than he did the sons of the Death Eaters: Malfoy, Goyle, and Crabbe.

How is it so terrible that Lily went after her sister when she had been injured?

Even how she was angry at the person who had injured her sister seems less than terrible and mean to me. We can't say from the text whether it was deliberate or accidental, but either way, Severus hurt Petunia and Lily is IMO justified to be angry about that .

So if one person attacks you and you fight back and in the fight you accidentally injure a friend, who is to blame?

I don't think this is equivalent. If you throw a missile at an enemy and it hits a friend, that's an accident. A racist epithet is not the same as a physical object: Lily was the only one in that scene at whom that word could be hurled, Severus did aim it at her, and he is to blame for saying it. Yes, it slipped out. However, words like that don't just slip out of you if you never, ever use them and are philosophically opposed to the meaning behind them.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

Quote:
I will try to clarify this: he was a follower, but not a blind one, he wanted to join because he wanted the fame and power, but he was not Bellatrix, he wasn't totally brainwhashed, so he could draw a line and leave Lily out of it. True, this is not the most ethical thing to do, but neither is dispatching your long time friend without giving him the opportunity to properly appologize.

Personally, I can't put being offended and hurt by bigotry on a par ethically with supporting a terrorist organisation for the sake of fame and power. Maybe that's just me, though.

I have never said that Snape was a fanatic like Bellatrix. However, if he thought the ends (power) justified the means (oppression and cruelty), it says very little good about Severus Snape.

So if one person attacks you and you fight back and in the fight you accidentally injure a friend, who is to blame? I think it would be the attacker, after all you acted in self-defense.

I think it would be understandable if Snape was aiming a hex at James and it hit Lily by accident. However, "filthy little Mudblood" did not hit Lily by accident. Lily was the Muggleborn who came to Snape's assistance. Lily was the only one that disgusting eptithet was aimed at, not James, or Sirius or anybody else.

I don't think Lily deniying romantic love for Snape will ever be a reason for him to act any rude with her, he respected her feelings, it was in these situation when he felt threatened himself that he acted rude.

Rude is putting it very, very mildly, IMO. "Mudblood" is repeatedly shown to be the equivalent of the very worst most disgusting racial epithets in the real world. I'm wondering why the seriousness of that word is being reduced to just "rude". Also, it held a huge significance at that time, when Muggleborns were being murdered by people who considered them "filthy little Mudbloods".

If Snape's humiliation in SWM is an excuse for him to throw bigotry at Lily, why not humiliation at rejection?

[sekhmetlion]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I think it would be understandable if Snape was aiming a hex at James and it hit Lily by accident. However, "filthy little Mudblood" did not hit Lily by accident. Lily was the Muggleborn who came to Snape's assistance. Lily was the only one that disgusting eptithet was aimed at, not James, or Sirius or anybody else.



Rude is putting it very, very mildly, IMO. "Mudblood" is repeatedly shown to be the equivalent of the very worst most disgusting racial epithets in the real world. I'm wondering why the seriousness of that word is being reduced to just "rude". Also, it held a huge significance at that time, when Muggleborns were being murdered by people who considered them "filthy little Mudbloods".

If Snape's humiliation in SWM is an excuse for him to throw bigotry at Lily, why not humiliation at rejection?

When fighting, even if it is verbally it is very easy that if someone is in the middle he/she would be told to go away in "less than polite ways" which was what happened to Lily here.

And Mudblood, is not any different than any social slur they tell nowadays, it has more or less meaning depending on the context and who says it. Sorry but I am not for letting social epithets called at me blur my view, social slur normally is told out of lack of knowledge for other culture. And it is not a reason to proscribe a culture or even a person, the context always needs to be analised.

I don't think this is equivalent. If you throw a missile at an enemy and it hits a friend, that's an accident. A racist epithet is not the same as a physical object: Lily was the only one in that scene at whom that word could be hurled, Severus did aim it at her, and he is to blame for saying it. Yes, it slipped out. However, words like that don't just slip out of you if you never, ever use them and are philosophically opposed to the meaning behind them.

All right we know Severus was in that leage, but I dare say she knew him better and knew he didn't wholeheartedly believe that, only parroted it because he wanted to be someone. She could easily tell how sorrow he was when he apologized in front of the portrait.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

Quote:

I will try to clarify this: he was a follower, but not a blind one, he wanted to join because he wanted the fame and power, but he was not Bellatrix, he wasn't totally brainwhashed, so he could draw a line and leave Lily out of it. True, this is not the most ethical thing to do, but neither is dispatching your long time friend without giving him the opportunity to properly appologize.
So if one person attacks you and you fight back and in the fight you accidentally injure a friend, who is to blame? I think it would be the attacker, after all you acted in self-defense.
I don't think Lily deniying romantic love for Snape will ever be a reason for him to act any rude with her, he respected her feelings, it was in these situation when he felt threatened himself that he acted rude.

I woud agree with this. Severus, IMO, like Regulus Black, entered Voldemort's service not fully understanding what he was getting into -- we see a bit of the same with Draco. So proud to be involved until the reality of the situation hit him and he wanted out.

The responsibility of what Severus said is his own, but, the responsibility for the circumstances under which he said it is that of James and Co. They were the ones tormenting him.

It seems whenever we start discussing this issue that Severus being a racist, terrorist thug is always brought up. But, other than Lily's statement about his using the word Mudblood (which, again could be hearsay, we are not giving specific instances) there is nothing in any of the books to support this. That he was a DE is fact. That he is guilty by association and complancy is fact. That he carried the Prophecy is a fact -- and, even though he didn't know it was about Harry and that Lily would be targeted, it was wrong to do. All of those things are facts and we see them in canon.

We do not see him torture or kill anyone himself, we do not see him show Blood-supremacy leanings as a teacher -- he is as nasty to Neville, a pureblood as he is to Hermione, a Muggle-born. So, while he may have been a member of the DE's that, IMO, does not mean that he was totally indoctrinated and steeped in every belief that they had.

But, in SWM, we are not talking about a full-fledged DE but a boy of 15 who was being put through a terrible ordeal -- equal to the tormenting of the Muggles at the Quidditch Tournament. That he was beyond control of his facualties is not hard to understand. That he lashed out at someone is not hard to understand. But, I do not feel that this situation can be compared to his just yelling "Mudblood" at Lily while strolling along with his DE friends.

I'll agree that Lily should have been extremely angry with him. And, as a 15 year old girl, she is not expected to have anymore control when she is angry than he did. But, once her anger had passed, I would see a true friend going to him, as Severus had come to her, and talking it over. If they could not work things out then, it would be best to go their own ways. But, to watch what was happening to him -- to almost smile about it as it was happening to her best friend -- and to not give him any quarter for the circumstances was not, IMO, the act of a "best friend."

Lily knew she had nothing to fear from Severus or his friends at Hogwarts. While she accused him of wanting to be a DE, but he might have changed his mind before he took the final step -- we don't know. It wasn't a certainty at that time.

So, this is my opinion, for what it's worth, and others can believe as they will. Everyone has a right to their opinions and interpretations, of course.

1. Lily's and Severus' friendship was based on his need for companionship and affection and her need for understanding of the WW and what her abilities were. Otherwise, they had nothing else in common.

2. Severus was responsible for his actions as a DE, as a student, and, as Lily's friend, except for the situation during SWM. I feel he reacted under extraneous circumstances and was not in full control of himself anymore than if he'd thrown up while being dangled in the air. That he took responsibility, felt remorse, and went to apologize, to me, shows that he did value Lily's frinedship and was truly sorry for what had happened.

3. Lily's initial reaction was understandable, but not her having to hold back a smile during her friend's torment. But, that, too, may have just been a reaction to the situation and not an intentional slap at her friend. They both were still kids, after all. Once her initial anger was over, however, I'm not sure why she did not have any feeling for her friend of so many years. This is what is difficult for me to understand.

4. I do not think Severus was ever a Blood-purist, racist, terrorist thug. I think he was a young man who saw few options for his future and took one of them -- the wrong one. I don't believe as a half-blood he would have been totally enmeshed in the kill and torture all Muggles and Mudbloods thing, except maybe for Tobias.

And with this, I will bow out of the discussion of SWM and the Lily/Severus estrangement because it is a discussion that just keeps going round and round and never really produces anything new. Again, my opinion.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

And Mudblood, is not any different than any social slur they tell nowadays, it has more or less meaning depending on the context and who says it. Sorry but I am not for letting social epithets called at me blur my view, social slur normally is told out of lack of knowledge for other culture. And it is not a reason to proscribe a culture or even a person, the context always needs to be analised.

I'm not sure I get you. "Mudblood" is not acceptable. It's not somehow "okay" because it was Snape and he loved Lily. Just as other bigoted words are not acceptable. It was not acceptable when Draco or Bellatrix used it to insult Hermione, it was not acceptable when Yaxley used it at the Ministry, it was not acceptable when Snape used it against Lily.
And in what way did Snape lack knowledge of Muggleborns?! Lily was his friend for years, he attended Hogwarts with Muggleborns. I don't see how he can lack knowledge there.

All right we know Severus was in that leage, but I dare say she knew him better and knew he didn't wholeheartedly believe that, only parroted it because he wanted to be someone. She could easily tell how sorrow he was when he apologized in front of the portrait.

Snape apologised because he called Lily a "Mudblood". That apology would be empty and insincere if he was going to continue to hang around with his prejudiced buddies. It was also empty as he was only apologising because it was Lily - would he have apologised to any other Muggleborn? If his attitudes remained the same, and Lily was to remain an exception, it was a hollow and meaningless apology. IMO, Lily chose her principles when she refused to accept a hollow apology.

[SadiraSnape]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

I'm not exactly sure exactly what "toe-rag" means as she uses it, as I've never encountered it anywhere else, though I can guess from the context

According to World Wide Words, a toe rag is a strip of cloth convicts or tramps wrapped around their feet as substitutes for socks. Its first recorded use was in 1864. Now it means the person so called is contemptible, worthless, a scrounger, criminal, thief, or indecent/unlawful person. (Attention SIP, regarding your analysis of James elsewhere -- toe rag meaning thief? Interesting...)

And this concludes today's lesson.

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

Severus, on the other hand, treats the son of James much worse than he did the sons of the Death Eaters: Malfoy, Goyle, and Crabbe.

We actually don't know how he treated very many students besides Harry and on occasion Neville, Hermione, and Ron. Oh, and Draco. Goyle and Crabbe may have been as caustically berated as Neville. Most likely he had a baseline snark he showered on all students, Harry included, and we only see the most over-the-top incidents. We know that he couldn't have been viciously rabid towards Harry and unfair in his grading for 6 years without let-up, because Harry got good grades on his Potions OWL (before HBP, remember, all based on Severus' instruction), and wasn't failing DADA in his 6th year.

Thus, I believe that Snape, while a strict, sarcastic, and abrupt teacher, didn't particularly single any students out regularly for mistreatment. Harry et al. are singled out when it's important to the plot for him to be singled out. I'd be so bold to venture that, over the course of a month, Harry & Co. are probably uber-Snaped probably 3 to 4 times, and most of those in a single class.

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

A racist epithet is not the same as a physical object...words like that don't just slip out of you if you never, ever use them and are philosophically opposed to the meaning behind them.

I have to agree with you here. It's just not defensible. I can imagine discussions in the Slytherin common room were rife with mudblood this and mudblood that, and I'm sure Severus was teased a LOT about his "little mudblood friend". He no doubt engaged in some himself, if for no other reason than to fit in.

But I don't believe he held these prejudices deeply -- if he had, he'd have never continued his friendship with Lily after he first found out she was Muggleborn. I think he took on a veneer of racism in order to fit in with the junior DE's in Slytherin. And I believe he shed it as soon as he was able to, after he left Voldemort. I don't believe it was ever a deeply rooted part of his personality.

And I believe if Lily had, after she cooled down, sat down and had a nice long talk with Severus over the term "mudblood" and his feelings about it, he may have seen the error of his ways and not joined the DE's at all... but he didn't get that chance.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by SadiraSnape

Thus, I believe that Snape, while a strict, sarcastic, and abrupt teacher, didn't particularly single any students out regularly for mistreatment. Harry et al. are singled out when it's important to the plot for him to be singled out. I'd be so bold to venture that, over the course of a month, Harry & Co. are probably uber-Snaped probably 3 to 4 times, and most of those in a single class.

The fact that Snape singling out Harry is important to the plot doesn't make it irrelevant to his character. The fact is, 100% of the Potions classes we get a look-in on up until fifth year involve Harry being singled out and bullied. All we really have to go on for Snape's "regular" conduct in his classes is these.

In my opinion, the fact that he allowed Harry to pass the course each year was the pièce de résistance. Had he abruptly failed Harry, there would have been clear grounds for an appeal and Snape's teaching and evaluation would have come under scrutiny. By all accounts, he would have done Harry a favour by failing him. I think it was pretty clear, though, that Snape's bullying was not about Harry's incompetence at Potions, but that it was personal. There was a sort of separation between Snape's regular and loud evaluations of Harry as a person and his quiet, official assessment of Harry's Potions prowess.