Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

In every conversation that I cited, Lily is in control. There is no effort on Severus part to control her.

Not in any you cited, no. But there is this little scene Snape chose to show to Harry, too:

The Prince's Tale Snape’s whole face contorted and he spluttered, “Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friends’ too! You’re not going to – I won’t let you – ”

My interpretation of this scene is that Snape is trying to control Lily, hence the 'I won't let you'. He comes across as possessive in this scene, in my view. That's not necessarily bad or unusual, since Lily is Snape's best friend and he clings to her for that reason. But I would strongly disagree with the theory that Lily was always in control and that Snape never tried to keep her from doing something he didn't approve of. He wasn't Lily's tag-along, he knew how to assert himself around her, in my opinion.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

To me Severus did protect and defend Lily in front of their classmates, I cannot see him letting his friends have a go at her. The thing is maybe Lily doesn't know about it because it happens in Slytherin.

Since we don't ever see anything like this happen on page, this is speculation, not actually analysing the text.

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13

... I think Young Snape had a desperate need or desire to 'belong'- and Lucius Malfoy, Mulciber, Avery etc offered him a form of friendship (however possibly weak or deceptive that may have been). Being 'friends' with that sort of gang included being horribly racist towards Muggle-Borns. In my opinion, Snape was almost blinded, to an extent; he was extremely relieved that these people (all who seem to have been strong, distinctive characters during Lily and Snape's time at Hogwarts) actually wanted and appeared to enjoy his company- and Snape would've done almost anything at that young age, I think, to keep that sense of belonging. While doing so, he probably forget, for a significant moment/amount of time that Lily's friendship was much dearer to him.

So, I would say, he probably didn't defend Lily when his friends insulted Muggle-Borns. She most likely wouldn't be present (until SWM) when they started using terms such as Mudbloods so maybe Snape thought, as long as Lily didn't hear about it, he could get away with it.

Also, I don't think Snape's art of masking his emotions was as refined when he was young, so maybe the first time the future DEs insulted Muggleborns, he made an involuntary gesture or sound of protest before quickly covering it up/ brushing it off for fear of being excluded. I'm sure (before SWM), he would always feel a guilty squirm in his stomach at the thought of what he and his friends were doing.

Excellent post. I completely agree.

Originally Posted by Moriath

My interpretation of this scene is that Snape is trying to control Lily, hence the 'I won't let you'. He comes across as possessive in this scene, in my view. That's not necessarily bad or unusual, since Lily is Snape's best friend and he clings to her for that reason.

I completely agree with this too. Severus does sometimes come over to me as possessive in these memories and I put that entirely down to his deep-seated insecurity. However, he also has quite a forceful personality ... this is very true of Snape the adult, obviously, but I see it at times in young Severus too. (It's not unusual for an insecure person to have a forceful personality. I know several in real life ...) And as Moriath rightly said, being insecure is not 'bad' ... many people are, and it's easy to see, in those vignettes of Sev's early life, just why he was insecure.

But I would strongly disagree with the theory that Lily was always in control and that Snape never tried to keep her from doing something he didn't approve of. He wasn't Lily's tag-along, he knew how to assert himself around her, in my opinion.

I agree. Their final break-up is wrenching to read but I don't see Severus as the poor, hapless tag-along of Lily. I have a higher opinion of both these characters than that.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Moriath

Not in any you cited, no. But there is this little scene Snape chose to show to Harry, too:



My interpretation of this scene is that Snape is trying to control Lily, hence the 'I won't let you'. He comes across as possessive in this scene, in my view. That's not necessarily bad or unusual, since Lily is Snape's best friend and he clings to her for that reason. But I would strongly disagree with the theory that Lily was always in control and that Snape never tried to keep her from doing something he didn't approve of. He wasn't Lily's tag-along, he knew how to assert himself around her, in my opinion.

It seems as if asserting himself didn't work out too well in their relationship, though. Just saying. Lily has the last word . . . the last word for the rest of their lives.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

It seems as if asserting himself didn't work out too well in their relationship, though. Just saying. Lily has the last word . . . the last word for the rest of their lives.

But then Sev went and joined the very people who wanted her dead.

I know people interpret the final scene between Lily and Sev differently, but the first time I read the scene, I did think Lily was giving him a chance to speak and deny that no, he wouldn't ever join the Death Eaters.

This he fails to do. And that is why I believe this whole thing is his worst memory, and why he gave Harry this specific, very painful, memory, so that Harry could see and understand -- at last -- what it was Severus was making reparation for.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

But then Sev went and joined the very people who wanted her dead.

I'm not sure who wanted her dead when they were fifteen? I really don't get that. Just saying "Mudblood" in the books is not equal to wanting someone dead. Draco, who uses that word all the time and actually became a DE, never tried to kill Hermione, for instance, and actually refuses to identify her to his own father, then does the same with Harry, and before that he couldn't kill Dumbledore. So DE doesn't equal "racist murderer" in my mind, because we don't have proof that every DE was a murderer. That's an example of the "shades of gray" theory, in my opinion.

Teenagers who aren't even DEs yet shouldn't be labeled "murderer." Harry refused to label Stan Shunpike as a DE even though he was flying around with them, and we know that Snape was there too and not actually trying to kill everyone he saw. Yes, it's bad company, but I'm glad that Harry at least stopped making sweeping generalities about Death Eaters. (No broomstick pun intended)

Anyway, in my opinion, there's not one shred of evidence that Mulciber or anyone else wanted Lily dead at that time. Snape certainly didn't want her dead at fifteen, even if Lily's friend did want him dead and tried to make it happen.

No one wanted her dead until quite a few years in the future, which no one saw coming. If she hadn't been Harry's mother, Voldemort wouldn't have cared about Lily at all once she turned down his offer to join the DEs. What I wonder is why Voldemort wanted her and James for the DEs? But that's for another discussion.

The bottom line is, no one was hunting her down until she became a mother, so this idea that Lily was in danger from Snape's friends at Hogwarts just doesn't ring true for me. I think she is exaggerating and blowing it out of proportion, and the reverse is true: Lily thinks Snape is exaggerating about James and his friends. So to me, they are equally wrong in their perceptions. JMO

Originally Posted by Pearl

I know people interpret the final scene between Lily and Sev differently, but the first time I read the scene, I did think Lily was giving him a chance to speak and deny that no, he wouldn't ever join the Death Eaters.

This he fails to do. And that is why I believe this whole thing is his worst memory, and why he gave Harry this specific, very painful, memory, so that Harry could see and understand -- at last -- what it was Severus was making reparation for.

No, I understand that. But my point is just that he never asserted himself with her again. He didn't keep coming back to bother her, and he let her go her own way.

I don't think of Snape as an "assertive" character where Lily is concerned. I agree with Minerva'sCat that from the time they are children in those memories, Lily leads the conversation the way she wants it to go. That's just the way I see it after reading Prince's Tale many times over the years.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by Moriath

My interpretation of this scene is that Snape is trying to control Lily, hence the 'I won't let you'. He comes across as possessive in this scene, in my view.

The problem with that interpretation is that "I won't let you....." is a common phrase used in heated conversations in English. In context, it has no indication of controlling the other person. It's usually about refusing to let the other person control the situation.

Examples:

"I'm not going to let you tell me what to do!!!!!"

"I'm not going to let you tell me something you know nothing about!!!!!"

"I'm not going to let you give me a failing grade!!!!!"

It's usually an expression of exasperation and desperation. And English speakers use this extremely common phrase all the time in heated conversation - particularly as teenagers.

Interpreting it as an attempt to actually control a person (rather than a desperate attempt to try to regain some control of a situation that is, from the speaker's point of view, spiraling out of control) is akin to interpreting "My feet are killing me" as meaning that my feet are literally leading to my demise.

As applied to the conversation in question, it's rather clear, I think, that Severus is speaking out of exasperation in a rather desperate attempt to stop having to listen to what he considers arrant nonsense (and on that point, I thoroughly agree with him). In context, it's more like Severus is saying "Lalalalala I can't hear you!!! I don't want to believe that you - of all people!!! - are actually saying this to me!"

At worst, it's a childish and immature response to a heated situation. It's not, in my opinion, some malevolent or fiendish attempt to control another person.

[ignisia]

Oh boy...It's been a while since I last jumped into the Lily-Sev discussion/bloodbath.

In the scene wherein Lily and Snape are arguing over the Werewolf Incident, I personally see Lily in the dominant position: she is assertively giving her opinions, while Severus is taking a defensive stance. She is telling him straight that she does not like something his friends are doing, and he consistently turns it around, avoiding the question or condoning the action ("Oh yeah, well, what about Potter?" and "That was just a laugh," to paraphrase). I tend to see this avoidance as defensive because, like a Protego charm, he is not absorbing the "attack," and discussing it head-on, but deflecting it.

If we're talking about the power dynamics in the relationship, I'd say that pre-Hogwarts, when Severus was the one with the knowledge Lily sought, he took more of an important role. Both needed each other for something, and because Severus was in possession of more information, he could be more confident in his friendship with Lily. Post-Hogwarts, Lily found new friends and gained new knowledge, while Severus appears to have gravitated to one other group and began gathering knowledge Lily would have no interest in. Add to this his growing feelings for Lily, combined with being bullied, and his confidence in her regard for him would have dropped significantly, IMO.

I don't really see her in any sort of subservient position with Snape. In fact, she appears quite confident in comparison to him, IMHO, which I think makes sense considering their social and family lives. She grew up with loving parents and a snotty sister to grapple with, whereas his parents are practically absent and his father was possibly worse. I'm not surprised that she appears able to voice her anger, whereas he cannot look his demons in the face.

Nor do I really have a problem with her being in control. Sounds like a good position to be in.

ETA: On the "I won't let you--" line, I would agree with CC, but also add that the way I see it, Severus was telling the truth when he said he'd have ended the sentence with "...be made a fool of." Even in spite of all that later occurs, he doesn't appear to blame her at all, whereas he places a lot of blame on James, IMO. So I think it makes sense for him to believe James is tricking Lily.

[ccollinsmith]

The irony is that I'm actually a Lily partisan in the Sev-Lily debate, and I have never bought into the notion that she's the dominant party or that she dumped Severus because she was more interested in James (etc.).

BUT in this scene, the phrase that supposedly indicates Severus' attempt to control Lily actually indicates, I think, that she is in the dominant position - at least from Severus' point of view.

Except when the phrase is trotted out by someone in a sufficiently powerful position NOT to let the other person do something (example: parent to child, boss to employee - and thus not necessarily in a moment of desperation), "I won't let you..." is nearly always uttered by the person in the inferior position.

Severus' use of this phrase speaks volumes about how he perceives the relationship dynamics. From his perspective, Lily has the power. Whether that perspective is accurate or not, I will leave for others to determine.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by willfitz

The fact that Snape singling out Harry is important to the plot doesn't make it irrelevant to his character. The fact is, 100% of the Potions classes we get a look-in on up until fifth year involve Harry being singled out and bullied. All we really have to go on for Snape's "regular" conduct in his classes is these.

In my opinion, the fact that he allowed Harry to pass the course each year was the pièce de résistance. Had he abruptly failed Harry, there would have been clear grounds for an appeal and Snape's teaching and evaluation would have come under scrutiny. By all accounts, he would have done Harry a favour by failing him. I think it was pretty clear, though, that Snape's bullying was not about Harry's incompetence at Potions, but that it was personal. There was a sort of separation between Snape's regular and loud evaluations of Harry as a person and his quiet, official assessment of Harry's Potions prowess.

We also can't rule out that Snape's own behavior influenced Harry's ability to learn. Snape wasn't trying to teach. We know Harry can learn just fine, because when he has the HBP potion book, he excels. Heck, Snape even discounted Harry's efforts completely even when he tried. Now we don't see him doing that to Slytherins, do we?

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by willfitz

In my opinion, the fact that he allowed Harry to pass the course each year was the pièce de résistance.

In the British education system (which Hogwarts seems to follow) you don't "pass" or "fail" a year - students progress to the next year by age, regardless of how they performed the previous year, except at age 16, when they can only continue with their chosen subjects if they have performed to an acceptable standard in external, public exams. We don't have the practice of repeating a year and I've seen no evidence that Hogwarts does, either.

There seem to be end of year exams at Hogwarts, but they don't seem to influence whether or not students can progress to the next year.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by ignisia

On the "I won't let you--" line, I would agree with CC, but also add that the way I see it, Severus was telling the truth when he said he'd have ended the sentence with "...be made a fool of." Even in spite of all that later occurs, he doesn't appear to blame her at all, whereas he places a lot of blame on James, IMO. So I think it makes sense for him to believe James is tricking Lily.

That is the way I understood that particular conversation between Lily and Severus, as I read it as Severus going on to explain what he meant. I would also add that at the time Severus had good reason to believe that James is indeed making a fool of Lily. He knows that Lily isn't privy to the whole story regarding the Werewolf incident. And, Severus completely believes that James was in on it with the rest of the Marauders. So, as far as Severus is concerned I think he believes that, James is using his heroic act, an act that Severus sees as less than heroic but more about saving his own skin, and using it to impress Lily, thereby making a fool of her.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

In the British education system (which Hogwarts seems to follow) you don't "pass" or "fail" a year - students progress to the next year by age, regardless of how they performed the previous year, except at age 16, when they can only continue with their chosen subjects if they have performed to an acceptable standard in external, public exams. We don't have the practice of repeating a year and I've seen no evidence that Hogwarts does, either.

There seem to be end of year exams at Hogwarts, but they don't seem to influence whether or not students can progress to the next year.

Then I wonder why Harry agonizes over every grade he gets, especially in Snape's class, when he isn't even a serious student? If grades aren't the incentive, then what difference does it make if he doesn't make a proper potion on a certain day? It makes more sense in terms of the U.S. system in which students have to keep repeating classes until they pass. Curious.

ETA: Actually, your post is a good reminder that none of the classroom scenes really make any difference to Harry in terms of his future or the plot. Whether Snape was sarcastic or whether Harry had to write an extra essay for him, all that mattered was the O.W.L. exam anyway. Good to know.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by Moriath

Not in any you cited, no. But there is this little scene Snape chose to show to Harry, too:



My interpretation of this scene is that Snape is trying to control Lily, hence the 'I won't let you'. He comes across as possessive in this scene, in my view. That's not necessarily bad or unusual, since Lily is Snape's best friend and he clings to her for that reason. But I would strongly disagree with the theory that Lily was always in control and that Snape never tried to keep her from doing something he didn't approve of. He wasn't Lily's tag-along, he knew how to assert himself around her, in my opinion.

IMO, if the end of the sentence, which Lily did not give him a chance to finish, had been "be taken in by their stories," or, "be hurt," or "be made a fool of,"... something along those lines, it was not an indication of trying to "control" but to "protect." He didn't want her hurt or want James using his charms to win her over just for the sake of adding her to his stolen trophies, such as the snitch he "nicked" from someone else (seeing as he was a chaser and not a seeker). But, IMO, Lily was in control of that conversation. She set the mood and ended it under her own terms.

So, where you see "possessive," I see "protective," something one friend might do for another. Different interpretations.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

He didn't want her hurt or want James using his charms to win her over just for the sake of adding her to his stolen trophies, such as the snitch he "nicked" from someone else (seeing as he was a chaser and not a seeker)

But this implies that Snape saw Lily as a trophy that could be snatched away from him. I wouldn't go so far, to be honest. In my view, Snape was not so sexist.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by Moriath

But this implies that Snape saw Lily as a trophy that could be snatched away from him. I wouldn't go so far, to be honest. In my view, Snape was not so sexist.

I actually agree that Severus saw it this way, though-- that Lily was a trophy that could be won away from him. I think he was glad of her friendship, but he was also so insecure that he saw anyone who might share in Lily's affections as a threat, in my opinion-- and he didn't want to share.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I actually agree that Severus saw it this way, though-- that Lily was a trophy that could be won away from him. I think he was glad of her friendship, but he was also so insecure that he saw anyone who might share in Lily's affections as a threat, in my opinion-- and he didn't want to share.

I would agree with you on this to the extent that I think Severus felt that James saw Lily as a trophy that could be won. I interpret Severus as desperate for friendship and affection, and seeing Lily, with her own magical powers "fell in love" -- as much as an 8/9 year old boy can do. He was insecure, as you say, and had never developed the social skills that Lily possessed. This isn't Lily's fault, of course, but, IMO, it put Severus at a disadvantage in the relationship as 1) he was desparate to maintain it, therfore didn't want to do something that would damage it; 2) he was not able to verbalize his thoughts as well and usually ended up "sticking his foot in his mouth," to use an old phrase.

I'm not sure if Severus would have felt as threatened if it had been anyone but one of the Marauders who was seeking Lily's attention/affection, and I'd say this was due to his and James on-going animosity. But, as you said, with his insecurity, it might have been difficult for him to "share" her affections with anyone. Insecure people tend to feel that any affection given to another is affection taken from them -- a silly idea, as love/affection is not something with limits on it but can be multiplied by the number of people that it is shared with and not be diminished for any of them. But, not being able to understand that is one of the drawbacks of insecurity/lack of self-esteem.

Maybe what Severus was more concerned with was the time they'd have together. I have a feeling he enjoyed that immensely and would have been saddened if it had been cut into more than it already had been by classes and other activities.

I still see Lily as more in control of the friendship as she had something Severus desperately needed: companionship/affection. He had only his knowledge of the magical world, and, once she was able to find that out for herself he didn't even have that.

I still contend that the "death knell" to their friendship came the day they were sorted. Since it was not that solid in the first place (my opinion based on the memories showing Lily almost constantly angry with Severus), for them to be separated as much as they were and thrown in with other Housemates with such diverse belief systems, it, to me, was only a matter of time before something came up that would bring about the end.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

In the British education system (which Hogwarts seems to follow) you don't "pass" or "fail" a year - students progress to the next year by age, regardless of how they performed the previous year, except at age 16, when they can only continue with their chosen subjects if they have performed to an acceptable standard in external, public exams. We don't have the practice of repeating a year and I've seen no evidence that Hogwarts does, either.

There seem to be end of year exams at Hogwarts, but they don't seem to influence whether or not students can progress to the next year.

I'm not so sure. I seem to recall either in first or second year one member of the trio contemplating how awful it would be to not be allowed into the next year. In fact, when they saw Crabbe and Goyle in their second year class, did one of them not express surprise at their ability to pass the exams?

Perhaps if someone else could do the dirty work for me until I return to my books.

Originally Posted by ajna

We also can't rule out that Snape's own behavior influenced Harry's ability to learn. Snape wasn't trying to teach. We know Harry can learn just fine, because when he has the HBP potion book, he excels. Heck, Snape even discounted Harry's efforts completely even when he tried. Now we don't see him doing that to Slytherins, do we?

The argument could also be made that Snape's actions may inadvertently have boosted Harry's determination to do well.

Regardless, like I said, I think that, for the most part, Snape's evaluations of Harry as a person, and his evaluations of Harry's work as a student, were likely completely separate. He took the opportunity to mock Harry's work when he could because he wanted Harry to feel small and unimportant, and when he couldn't, his form of abuse was to do something like smash his vial.

[TreacleTartlet]

Severus seeing Lily as a trophy to be won doesn't make sense to me, as we know Severus loved Lily. A trophy is seen as a reward or a status symbol, which I would associate with pride, and nothing to do with love.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I'm not so sure. I seem to recall either in first or second year one member of the trio contemplating how awful it would be to not be allowed into the next year. In fact, when they saw Crabbe and Goyle in their second year class, did one of them not express surprise at their ability to pass the exams?

Perhaps if someone else could do the dirty work for me until I return to my books.

You're probably right - my knowledge of the text detail is pants. I think, in the interests of keeping the thread on Snape, let's do any further discussion of this by owl or on an appropriate thread, if there is one (sorry, the OT digression was entirely my fault).

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

Severus seeing Lily as a trophy to be won doesn't make sense to me, as we know Severus loved Lily. A trophy is seen as a reward or a status symbol, which I would associate with pride, and nothing to do with love.

Voldemort was the type of personality who collected "trophies" even when he was a boy and kept stuff from other kids in his cupboard at the Orphanage. All the horcruxes were made from trophies belonging to the founders of the school.

We don't see any behavior like that in young Snape, that I can recall.

I believe if Snape was only interested in Lily as a trophy, then the only thing that would have mattered is winning her back from James, which he never tried to do. He still loved her but he left her alone. I'm not saying he didn't want her anymore, but I think he saw it as her choice, not his.

As I understand DH, Voldemort believed Snape saw Lily as a "prize" but the truth was quite different. He never expected Snape to try and help Lily while she was married to someone else. What Snape actually did in going to Dumbledore was a selfless act from which he expected nothing. That was the thing that Voldemort didn't understand, the same type of love mixed with sacrifice that Lily felt for Baby Harry.

Originally Posted by Willfitz

Regardless, like I said, I think that, for the most part, Snape's evaluations of Harry as a person, and his evaluations of Harry's work as a student, were likely completely separate. He took the opportunity to mock Harry's work when he could because he wanted Harry to feel small and unimportant, and when he couldn't, his form of abuse was to do something like smash his vial.

I think Snape probably could tell just looking at that vial that Harry's potion was right on that day. In the end it just didn't matter - Harry passed potions just fine. To me, if grades didn't matter, then Snape's "performances" in class were just that - theatrics for the "Inquisitorial Squad" to tell Umbridge about. JMO