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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4



 
 
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  #501  
Old March 4th, 2011, 7:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
I´d like to know what kind "emotions" you are referring to. I mean there are different kind of emotions that could fit here.
Sure, no problems.

Snape's a very complicated person, so I think he was feeling a variety of different emotions at this time ("For him?!"), some including:

Shock due to the information Dumbledore has suddenly revealed.
Anger because I think Snape hated it when innocent people had to die.
Guilt due to discovering he has to lead Harry to his death.
Worry due to the War in general.
Denial because I think, sadly, Snape never got over his rivalry with James Potter and did not even want to admit to himself that he could ever care for James Potter's son.

Just my opinion.


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  #502  
Old March 4th, 2011, 7:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post

In which way did he answer? I mean, what could the 'for him' mean, if we try to see it in a way that would suggest that Snape is supporting Harry, but not Lily?
When I first read this and what follows, I found Snape's response to Dumbledore's question rather interesting, as it immediately struck me as being consistant with someone who was trying to evade telling the truth. Including strategies such as; avoidance of giving a direct answer but instead implying an answer; diversion; change of subject. Snape doesn't give a direct answer yes, or no,to Dumbledore's question but implies an answer by asking a rhetorical question. He also diverts the focus away from the question by producing his Patronus which also changes the focus of the subject to Lily. At the same time he diverts Dumbledore's attention away from himself.

This was my initial interpretation of that scene, but I realise not eveyone will see it that way.


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Last edited by TreacleTartlet; March 4th, 2011 at 7:14 pm.
  #503  
Old March 4th, 2011, 7:27 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13 View Post
Sure, no problems.

Snape's a very complicated person, so I think he was feeling a variety of different emotions at this time ("For him?!"), some including:

Shock due to the information Dumbledore has suddenly revealed.
Anger because I think Snape hated it when innocent people had to die.
Guilt due to discovering he has to lead Harry to his death.
I agree, that he was probably thinking this after Dumbledore´s words. But he stated before that he doesn´t like the idea of sacrificying Harry, so why should he suddenly pussyfoot around. Dumbledore ask a question. Snape gave a straight answer. He even produced the stag and got all teary eyes to emphasize that it´s all about Lily.

Quote:
Denial because I think, sadly, Snape never got over his rivalry with James Potter and did not even want to admit to himself that he could ever care for James Potter's son.

Just my opinion.
"Care for" as in liking him? Well actually I have to agree with TT here. Snape never liked Harry. He just protected him, cause that´s what Dumbledore asked of him to make up for his wrong doings


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  #504  
Old March 4th, 2011, 7:39 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

I didn't say or intend to say that Snape's Patronus was Lily's Patronus. I meant to say that Snape's Patronus was inspired by Lily in the same way that Harry's Patronus was inspired by James. To my way of thinking, to say that Snape's silver doe came from inside of him and had nothing to do with Lily is to say that Snape didn't love Lily and wasn't inspired by Lily. That would make Snape a liar and take away everything in canon that we have to explain why Snape did everything that he did to protect Harry: for love of Lily.

Also, I agree with Tenshi: when Snape said "for him?" and then conjured the doe Patronus, what I think he was saying was "no, not for him, for Lily, because you made me promise to protect the boy for Lily, and my other choice would have been going to Azkaban for being a Death Eater."


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  #505  
Old March 4th, 2011, 8:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
"Care for" as in liking him?
I think it's a matter of individual interpretation as to whether Snape liked Harry or not; I feel that the word 'care' is signficantly different from liked:

In my opinion, Snape's redemption arc included him caring about innocent people's deaths- regardless of whether he liked him or not. During the hilltop scene, I feel, like Dumbledore, that Snape was really only concerned about Lily's wellbeing and no-one else's because Lily was the only person that Snape felt mattered. But the "For him?!" scene in Dumbledore's office, I think, shows that Snape's character had grown in a postive way: the fact that an innocent person was set to die mattered to him- 'liking' the person (e.g Harry) had nothing to do with whether they deserved to die or not in Snape's mind.

Just my opinion, of course.


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  #506  
Old March 4th, 2011, 10:01 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
I personally think there is no evidence Snape cared for Harry at all in fact all the canon points to is that he hated Harry consistently and was only protecting Harry for Lily's sake.
I disagree. Canon is quite clear on the fact that - till the very end when Harry learns of Snape's motives - Harry hated Snape, consistently and thoroughly. His judgments of the man were coloured - even when he trusted everything else that Dumbledore said, Harry never could get over his hatred of Snape. Although I wouldn't really hold it against him - he was a kid afterall - but Snape isn't Dumbledore to react to such raw emotion with a smile and a lemon drop. We wouldn't love him so much if he did

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
I have always found it sad that Snape could never see Harry for the person he truly was - he only saw James and treated Harry accordingly.
IMHO, it would have hurt Snape quite a bit to keep 'seeing' Lily's child - it might be a twisted way of thinking, but he needed something to counteract the hurt with an emotion he was more used to showing outwardly - and Harry being a photocopy of James just made that easier. But, even that was only initial I think. After OoTP and the occlumency lessons, I think Snape did feel for Harry at some level, even if he didn't like him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
I have never seen any evidence that Snape as a 'cub' Death Eater was not comfortable with killing or torturing people at all. JKR herself says that Snape would have remained a Death Eater if not for the prophecy targeting Lily and also there is the fact he was willing to let Voldemort kill James and Harry without any qualms.
Letting them die in return for Lily's life, and enjoying or being comfortable with killing and torture are two different things, IMO. DE Snape would have happily made that bargain - but he would have eventually gone down the RAB road. Professor Snape, though, would have killed himself a million times on the inside before he made a choice between two lives - I think he grew up to be someone who understands the value of life, and even more, the value of saving lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13
I always took the "For him?!" as Snape trying to convince himself that Harry didn't matter to him: that everything was still for Lily and Lily only- when, in reality, he cannot help but care about Harry, as a seperate individual. I think Snape felt very conflicted about the whole thing and thought that it would be 'easier' for his own mind to deal with, if he could pretend he still didn't care about Harry. The "For him?!" is Snape attempting to deny his strong emotions about Harry and the situation he was being forced into.
So much denial, Professor! Are you sure you aren't hiding something?

Snape cared for Harry - difficult not to, when you're saving that impossible kid atleast once a year! Did he like Harry? Well he didn't quite like anyone much, did he? As a teacher, his behaviour towards the best witch in class was really not much different from how he treated the worst student. It stems from not *wanting* to like anyone I think - he enjoyed being a snarky git a little too much

But does that mean he couldn't care less about what happened to Harry? Why would he keep sending Phineas to check up on him then? Why did he go out of his way to 'help protect' Harry Potter? And if he was only grudgingly fulfilling a promise - why then did he make more? To protect the whole of Hogwarts after Dumbledore was gone? If he didn't care for Harry he could have just run away and hide somewhere - wallow in self pity about losing Lily and not be able to save her kid because he had to die anyway!

Snape is not a pleasant person, but that does NOT make someone cold.

***Too much love happened :P


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  #507  
Old March 4th, 2011, 10:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Dogs and horses are food ingredients in our world, yet I would argue that a lot of children and their parents would be in an uproar if a teacher threatened their pets as a way of motivating them. I can't see Snape as the noble teacher with only the good of his pupils at heart in this instance, I really can't. I would rather call it traumatising, not motivating.
Snape didn't "eat" Trevor though. I think the fact that it's a magical world gives Snape some leeway, since McGonagall was letting them stick pins in hedgehogs and turn rats into teacups (sorry, I mean water goblets). Ron's pet was a rat at the time and he saw Buckbeak and later Sirius-Dog eat rats, which seems worse than what Snape does to Trevor. JMO

ETA: One more thing. I think it's a plausible theory that Snape was checking Trevor to see if he was an animagus ~ It's just a pity he didn't check Scabbers since Peter lived in Harry's Dorm Room for three years. Just a theory.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; March 4th, 2011 at 10:24 pm.
  #508  
Old March 4th, 2011, 10:54 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

I have trouble understanding why it's so hard to believe that, after several years of protecting Harry, watching him grow into a courageous and fiercely loyal young man, watching him go through all that he'd been through from the time Voldemort regenerated, and seeing him become a pretty accomplished wizard, Severus might not have eventually grown to like Harry. Maybe it's just me, but, I think the human spirit is more resiliant than that.

We know the immediate dislike at the beginning of the series was due to the James/Severus bad-blood thing from waaaaaay back, and that Severus hadn't gotten over it and probably never would. So, his initial treatment of Harry was a transferance of his hatred of James to Harry. Severus, early on, also knew that Harry hated him, and, IMO, he didn't care. The feeling was mutual and he wasn't losing any sleep over it. And, both of them were constantly adding fuel to the fire...and, I'm not trying to cast blame, or make a point of "who's most responsible." Neither of them made any effort to stop the downward spiral of their relationship.

But, I see bits and pieces in the canon that suggest that in the later years, in spite of himself, Severus grew to like Harry, and that this started during the Occlumency lessons, when Severus saw what Harry had gone through and how similar it was to his own childhood. IMO, it was then that some of his preconcieved ideas of Harry's having a sense of entitlement handed down from James, or of Harry being the same arrogant bully that his father was, started to change. I don't think it was voluntary, in that, I think it was a very difficult and conflicting thing for Severus to try to handle. Other than Dumbledore, I don't think he'd allowed himself to really like anyone since Lily died. I think her death caused him to build the snarky, aloof "Snape Persona" around himself that we see from SS/PS on.

After OotP, I believe that Severus had as much of a battle with himself over his emotions about Harry as the battles he was having with Harry. His answer, IMO, as it has always been when he had something he didn't want to deal with, was to shove those emotions aside and occupy himslef with something else.

When Dumbledore put him on the spot, though, by outright asking if Severus had grown to like Harry, IMO, he couldn't push them aside anymore, but didn't want to admit to Dumbledore -- and especially to himslef -- that he had grown fond of Harry. So, he answers the question with a question, dances around a bit, and casts his Patronus as a final diversion from the subject. I think Treacle hit it right on the head with her analysis of that scene.

If Severus had been able to get the required information to Harry directly, I'm not sure how that scene would have gone, nor what would have happened later. I don't know if Harry would have ever been aware of Severus' love for Lily, or his years of protection of Harry. I wonder, would they have ever just sat down and talked about Lily, and would Severus have been able to tell Harry of his love for her? Would he have been able to express his remorse to Harry for the things he had done, and explained why he'd done some of them? I really doubt it. Good idea for a fan-fic, though, but, I'm sure it's probably already been done

I don't think Severus and Harry would have ever gotten to be close friends, even though they might have reached an understanding. Let's just say, had he lived, Severus might have been on Harry's Christmas card list, but, I doubt if he'd have been invited to Christmas dinner.


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  #509  
Old March 4th, 2011, 11:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood
Also, I agree with Tenshi: when Snape said "for him?" and then conjured the doe Patronus, what I think he was saying was "no, not for him, for Lily, because you made me promise to protect the boy for Lily, and my other choice would have been going to Azkaban for being a Death Eater."
I also agree. That "for him?" line was very dismissive of any feelings for Harry, imo. I'm not seeing it as denial or Snape trying to cover up having grown to care about Harry. Just doesn't seem in his character to me.
If that were the case, did he taunt Hermione a way to hide his admiration for her intelligence?

We all know Snape didn't wear his heart of his sleeves. But I don't think he put disguises on his heart either. If he didn't like you, his actions said so (i.e. Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, James, Sirius, Lupin...); if he respected you, his actions said so (i.e. Dumbledore, perhaps Minerva); if he loved you, his actions said so (i.e. Lily).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOriginal View Post
I disagree. Canon is quite clear on the fact that - till the very end when Harry learns of Snape's motives - Harry hated Snape, consistently and thoroughly. His judgments of the man were coloured - even when he trusted everything else that Dumbledore said, Harry never could get over his hatred of Snape. Although I wouldn't really hold it against him - he was a kid afterall - but Snape isn't Dumbledore to react to such raw emotion with a smile and a lemon drop. We wouldn't love him so much if he did
And I think it can be equally argued that Snape hated Harry consistently and thoroughly. Yes, Harry did indeed hate Snape--but he hated Snape because Snape hated him first. Snape treated Harry like dirt from the very first class (first encounter) with him. How else was Harry supposed to react? Harry knew nothing about Snape's true motivations (i.e. protecting him in honor of Lily) until the very end of DH. While Harry has to be excused somewhat because he is a kid, I also think his ill-feelings toward Snape were understandable and justified, considering how Snape treated him from day one.
Harry was a kid who didn't know what was truly going on. What's Snape's excuse? Holding an unfair grudge against Harry because of who his father and godfather were. I don't think that's very noble. JMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOrginal
IMHO, it would have hurt Snape quite a bit to keep 'seeing' Lily's child - it might be a twisted way of thinking, but he needed something to counteract the hurt with an emotion he was more used to showing outwardly - and Harry being a photocopy of James just made that easier. But, even that was only initial I think. After OoTP and the occlumency lessons, I think Snape did feel for Harry at some level, even if he didn't like him.
Maybe...
But then, I have a hard time thinking so because if he did develop some type of feeling, even the smallest inkling of caring, I think he would have continued those Occlumency lessons. Snape's allowing his anger/annoyance get in the way of continuing Occlumency is inexcusable to me. It ended with terrible consequences (Sirius' death). A part of me wants to hope that a part of Snape felt guilty about this, but considering how much he hated Sirius, I doubt it. Especially since in HBP, Snape was kind enough to make Harry, a mourning kid, go through old files of deceased father and recently deceased godfather for detention (a part of the book that still just makes me cringe on behalf of Harry; that was just too low).

That Severus doesn't play fair at all, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOriginal
Letting them die in return for Lily's life, and enjoying or being comfortable with killing and torture are two different things, IMO.
I agree. They're two different things. But the problem I see is that I think Snape, at some point, was ok with both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOriginal
DE Snape would have happily made that bargain - but he would have eventually gone down the RAB road.
This is debatable.
I have a feeling that this would have depended on one thing: Whether Lily lived or died. Lily died, Snape was hurt and insulted, so he switched sides. If Lily lived and he had gotten what he asked for, I'm always wondering what would have become of Snape. I think he may have remained a DE. Then again, perhaps Lily would have been able to make Snape change for the better. However, if Lily ever found out that Snape held some of the blame in getting her husband and child killed, she would have wanted nothing to do with him. So maybe he would have stuck to his DE ways, just as he did when Lily decided she wanted nothing to do with him in their later years at Hogwarts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOriginal
Professor Snape, though, would have killed himself a million times on the inside before he made a choice between two lives - I think he grew up to be someone who understands the value of life, and even more, the value of saving lives.
And there's hope for Snape yet! lol
Yes, I'd say he learned the value of life, mainly because of Lily's death. Lily's death probably made him not fear his own death, which I think could have been a factor that permitted him to agreeing to risking his life by playing both sides. I'm not saying Snape was suicidal, just accepting of what happened and his mistakes to the point that he was willing to risk everything in an attempt to "redeem" himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOriginal
But does that mean he couldn't care less about what happened to Harry? Why would he keep sending Phineas to check up on him then? Why did he go out of his way to 'help protect' Harry Potter? And if he was only grudgingly fulfilling a promise - why then did he make more? To protect the whole of Hogwarts after Dumbledore was gone? If he didn't care for Harry he could have just run away and hide somewhere - wallow in self pity about losing Lily and not be able to save her kid because he had to die anyway!
The other side of the argument would be that Snape didn't care at all for Harry, but he cared so very much for Lily that he did all of that because he knew it's what she would have wanted. That's what I believe.
I think Snape saw "playing the good guy" as the only way to get redemption from his past actions that ultimately got the love of his life killed.


  #510  
Old March 5th, 2011, 12:36 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by PotterGurl08 View Post
I have a feeling that this would have depended on one thing: Whether Lily lived or died. Lily died, Snape was hurt and insulted, so he switched sides. If Lily lived and he had gotten what he asked for, I'm always wondering what would have become of Snape. I think he may have remained a DE. Then again, perhaps Lily would have been able to make Snape change for the better. However, if Lily ever found out that Snape held some of the blame in getting her husband and child killed, she would have wanted nothing to do with him. So maybe he would have stuck to his DE ways, just as he did when Lily decided she wanted nothing to do with him in their later years at Hogwarts.
During Severus's first approach to Dumbledore on that windswept hill he promised to do 'Anything' if Dumbledore would save Lily's family. Why then would he return to the DE's if Dumbledore was successful? If Snape was the person so many people think him to be, wouldn't it have been Lily's death that sent him back to the DE's? Instead he promised to be Dumbledore's spy amongst the DEs and to protect "Lily's boy" when Harry came to Hogwarts.


Quote:
I think Snape saw "playing the good guy" as the only way to get redemption from his past actions that ultimately got the love of his life killed.
He was merely playing a part in his dealings with Dumbledore? That doesn't sound like the road to redemption to me.

All the above are merely my opinion.


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  #511  
Old March 5th, 2011, 1:19 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoOriginal View Post
I disagree. Canon is quite clear on the fact that - till the very end when Harry learns of Snape's motives - Harry hated Snape, consistently and thoroughly. His judgments of the man were coloured - even when he trusted everything else that Dumbledore said, Harry never could get over his hatred of Snape. Although I wouldn't really hold it against him - he was a kid afterall - but Snape isn't Dumbledore to react to such raw emotion with a smile and a lemon drop. We wouldn't love him so much if he did

Harry may have consistently hated Harry for so did Snape - and Snape started the hatred and I don't believe Harrys judgment was coloured - he saw what was right in fronto of him which was that Snape hated him, bullied him and caused him great distress.

IMHO, it would have hurt Snape quite a bit to keep 'seeing' Lily's child - it might be a twisted way of thinking, but he needed something to counteract the hurt with an emotion he was more used to showing outwardly - and Harry being a photocopy of James just made that easier. But, even that was only initial I think. After OoTP and the occlumency lessons, I think Snape did feel for Harry at some level, even if he didn't like him.


Letting them die in return for Lily's life, and enjoying or being comfortable with killing and torture are two different things, IMO. DE Snape would have happily made that bargain - but he would have eventually gone down the RAB road. Professor Snape, though, would have killed himself a million times on the inside before he made a choice between two lives - I think he grew up to be someone who understands the value of life, and even more, the value of saving lives.

So much denial, Professor! Are you sure you aren't hiding something?

Snape cared for Harry - difficult not to, when you're saving that impossible kid atleast once a year! Did he like Harry? Well he didn't quite like anyone much, did he? As a teacher, his behaviour towards the best witch in class was really not much different from how he treated the worst student. It stems from not *wanting* to like anyone I think - he enjoyed being a snarky git a little too much

But does that mean he couldn't care less about what happened to Harry? Why would he keep sending Phineas to check up on him then? Why did he go out of his way to 'help protect' Harry Potter? And if he was only grudgingly fulfilling a promise - why then did he make more? To protect the whole of Hogwarts after Dumbledore was gone? If he didn't care for Harry he could have just run away and hide somewhere - wallow in self pity about losing Lily and not be able to save her kid because he had to die anyway!

Snape is not a pleasant person, but that does NOT make someone cold.


***Too much love happened :P

This argument does not work for me - it excuses what Snape did to an innocent child who had done nothing to Snape. Snape was an adult and should have been able to repress this emotions. Seeing Harry as a photocopy of James was wrong and Snape never got to know the real Harry - right until the end he belittled Harry and James which is so wrong given that whatever James did to Snape it was actually partly Snapes fault that James was dead and Harry was an orphan. I have seen no evidence that after OOTP Snape feels for Harry at all and still goes out of his way to hurt him like in HBP.


Actually given the way Snape speaks about Harry consistently and even the way he speaks to others about Harry I would have to disagree that Snape cared for Harry as this was never show. I don;t believe that because he was the one sending Phineas to check on them at all that meant he cared for Harry it just meant that he was doing what he had committed himself too. He did not run away and hide somewhere not because he cared for Harry but because he was doing all this for LILY.

Maybe they are but we are given no canon to accept that Snape was NOT comfortable for the DE lifestyle he signed up for until Lily was targetted. To say he would have gone down the RAB route is pure speculation and we have JKR saying that Snape would have remained a DE if not for Lily. I also persoanlly feel judging by Snapes talk with Dumbledore that he was just fine with the idea of James and Harry dying as long as he got Lily and that if it had been Neville who was the one in the prophecy Snape would not have lifted a finger to change that. Snape seemed to only understand the value of life AFTER he betrayed Lily IMO.

Snape is definitley a cold and unpleasant person IMO.


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  #512  
Old March 5th, 2011, 3:48 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
During Severus's first approach to Dumbledore on that windswept hill he promised to do 'Anything' if Dumbledore would save Lily's family. Why then would he return to the DE's if Dumbledore was successful? If Snape was the person so many people think him to be, wouldn't it have been Lily's death that sent him back to the DE's? Instead he promised to be Dumbledore's spy amongst the DEs and to protect "Lily's boy" when Harry came to Hogwarts.
Upon finding out Voldemort was going to kill the Potters, Snape asked Voldemort to not kill Lily (and Lily only--that was his initial request). If things went Snape's way (as in knowing Voldemort was being truthful in promsing to not killing Lily), he wouldn't have gone to Dumbledore in the first place.
Of course, Snape realizes Voldemort might break his promise and all that...
What I'm saying is that had this not been the case and Snape had reason to believe Voldemort would keep his promise and Lily wasn't killed, I think there's a possibility Snape would have remained a DE.

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He was merely playing a part in his dealings with Dumbledore? That doesn't sound like the road to redemption to me.

All the above are merely my opinion.
You said it, not me.
Doesn't sound like redemption to me either because ultimately, despite Snape 'getting his job done', he's not completely redeemed in my eyes.
But I do think in Snape's mind, he thought he was redeeming himself.


  #513  
Old March 5th, 2011, 3:49 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
This argument does not work for me - it excuses what Snape did to an innocent child who had done nothing to Snape. Snape was an adult and should have been able to repress this emotions. Seeing Harry as a photocopy of James was wrong and Snape never got to know the real Harry - right until the end he belittled Harry and James which is so wrong given that whatever James did to Snape it was actually partly Snapes fault that James was dead and Harry was an orphan. I have seen no evidence that after OOTP Snape feels for Harry at all and still goes out of his way to hurt him like in HBP.
I think if you read back over the previous incarnations of this thread, RBF, you will see that all of us have agreed, time and again, that Severus is not blameless in his treatment of Harry. No one has tried or is trying to say that. We have admitted that Severus was a nasty, snarky person who would probably have been better suited to other work than teaching.

IMO, Severus was able to repress most of his emotions, and, I think the fact that he consistantly fooled one of the most powerful wizards of his time is a testament to that. However, as Dumbledore himself said, some scars are too deep to heal. The James/Severus enmity was one that Severus could not get over, for whatever reason. This does not mean that he was right in the way he treated Harry in some cases. It does not condone being unkind. It does not negate his responsibility for the things he did. But, again, my opinion, character analysis is not a matter laying blame as much as it is looking at the "why's" of a character's behavior.

I'm not sure what you mean by "right until the end he belittled Harry and James" when his dying moments were given over to making sure Harry had the information he needed to complete Dumbledore's plan, and, when he gave Harry, at the very least, memories of his mother as a child and teenager that he would not have had otherwise. Laying aside our beliefs as to why these memories were given, I think we can both agree that Harry would have never seen his mother the way he did except through Severus' memories, and that was something I think Harry would have wanted to see.

As for Severus being "part of the cause" of James' death; Severus only carried part of an ambiguous Prophecy to his boss, The Dark Lord. The interpretation of it was made by Voldemort. He chose to kill a child, not Severus. Once it was clear that Lily was in danger Severus went, at risk of his own life, to beg Dumbledore for her safety...eventually, their safety, and promised "anything" to make sure this happened. Had it not been for the betrayal of one of James' best friends, Lily and her family would have been safe, based on what Severus did to help protect them. So, personally, I do not see him as "partly responsible" for their deaths. I see him as responsible for carrying an ambiguous Prophecy to the Dark Lord, which was wrong. But, he was a much different person at that time than the Professor Snape that Harry meets at Hogwarts many years later.

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Actually given the way Snape speaks about Harry consistently and even the way he speaks to others about Harry I would have to disagree that Snape cared for Harry as this was never show. I don;t believe that because he was the one sending Phineas to check on them at all that meant he cared for Harry it just meant that he was doing what he had committed himself too. He did not run away and hide somewhere not because he cared for Harry but because he was doing all this for LILY.
We see him, durng Harry's First Year, telling Dumbledore that he's like his father and saying that he is arrogant and a mediocre student, etc. I'm not familiar with any other conversations with Dumbledore or other teachers where he criticizes Harry after he sees Harry's memories in OotP. In PoA, he suggests Harry be expelled, but, he knew it would never happen, so, IMO, it was an empty gesture, possibly for show or possibly because Harry had aided a man the entire Wizarding World thought was a murderer and the betrayer of the Potters.

If, by his mistreatment of Harry in HBP, you're referring to the detention and copying the card files, I find that, as a punishment for nearly killing another student, pretty mild. I think that we can all agree, if it had been any other student they would have been suspended or expelled.

When Severus leaves the Sword in the pond for Harry, he hides and remains there for a while -- Ron even remarks that he thinks he saw someone -- IMO, this was to make sure Harry was safe while retrieving the Sword. If he could have just laid it on the ground and left it for Harry to pick up, I think he would have done that. But, the Sword had to be "won" under some trying circumstance.

I tend to interpret Severus' actions as Headmaster, trying to keep his true purpose as a spy concealed while doing what he could to keep the students safe, shows that he had changed and that everything wasn't just for Lily anymore. I feel that there was a point when it became about saving all of those he could, and that meant helping to make sure that Voldemort was vanquished once and for all. I don't believe this was done for Lily, alone, but for everyone, magic and non-magic folk alike.

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Maybe they are but we are given no canon to accept that Snape was NOT comfortable for the DE lifestyle he signed up for until Lily was targetted. To say he would have gone down the RAB route is pure speculation and we have JKR saying that Snape would have remained a DE if not for Lily. I also persoanlly feel judging by Snapes talk with Dumbledore that he was just fine with the idea of James and Harry dying as long as he got Lily and that if it had been Neville who was the one in the prophecy Snape would not have lifted a finger to change that. Snape seemed to only understand the value of life AFTER he betrayed Lily IMO.
I think if we took all of Ms. Rowlings non-book statements about Severus and put them together, it would be pretty confusing because I've read so many things that she's said that just don't go with what she wrote, I sometimes wonder if she read her own books.

I, again, offer Bellatrix criticizm of Severus as a do-nothing DE who was never around when the action started. She complained that he ran and hid. She was shocked when he agreed to make the Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed. IMO, this, and the criticism by other DEs that Severus mentions, seems to indicate he was not a "grab your torch and pitchfork and let'ts go roast some Muggles" kind of guy. I feel he stepped back into the shadows once he realized what he'd gotten himslef into, and that he did only what he had to do to stay alive and to win enough favor that Voldemort didn't want to use him for an example of what happens to slacker DEs.

I agree that the Severus of 21-22 did not value human life and, as long as he didn't have to actually do it or see it, was not that affected by the deaths of others. This is a totally different Severus than we see ten years later. The beginning of this, as I see it, was his meeting with Dumbledore on the hilltop, and his being shamed into realizing what he had become. Dumbledore held a mirror up to Severus and I don't think he liked what he saw. So, he promised "anything" if Dumbledore would protect them all. Did that mean he cared about James and Harry at that exact time? No. I don't think so. I do, however feel it was the beginning of his redemption and of starting to value human life, no matter whose it was.

And, it wasn't Severus who betrayed Lily and her family. It was their best friend, Peter Pettigrew. The Prophecy never stated that Harry was "the one," and, I'm not even sure whether Severus knew that Lily was expecting at the time he carried it to Voldemort. The actual "betrayal" took place about a week before the Potters were killed.

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Snape is definitley a cold and unpleasant person IMO.
I totally agree. But I don't think cold and unpleasant is the same as evil and uncaring.


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Last edited by MinervasCat; March 5th, 2011 at 3:53 am.
  #514  
Old March 5th, 2011, 4:32 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I have trouble understanding why it's so hard to believe that... Severus might not have eventually grown to like Harry. Maybe it's just me, but, I think the human spirit is more resilient than that.

But, I see bits and pieces in the canon that suggest that in the later years, in spite of himself, Severus grew to like Harry, and that this started during the Occlumency lessons, when Severus saw what Harry had gone through and how similar it was to his own childhood. IMO, it was then that some of his preconcieved ideas of Harry's having a sense of entitlement handed down from James, or of Harry being the same arrogant bully that his father was, started to change.
This is exactly what was bugging me about this scene in OotP:

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(Umbridge has been inspecting Snape and is questioning him about his repeated applications and denials for the DADA instructor position)

"I suppose this is relevant?" Snape asked, his black eyes narrowed.

"Oh yes," said Professor Umbridge, "Yes, the Ministry wants a thorough understanding of teachers' -- er -- backgrounds."

She turned away, walked over to Pansy Parkinson and began questioning her about the lessons. Snape looked round at Harry and their eyes met for a second. Harry hastily dropped his gaze to his potion...
Emphasis mine.

Now admittedly, Harry once again fouls up his potion and Severus snarkily vanishes it and gives Harry a zero, but before that he and Harry share a non-snarky, non-adversarial moment where they look at each other just as two people.

Seems to me, if Snape hated Harry, he'd have snarled out something along the lines of "Well, what are you gawping at, Potter?" But IMO he was caught off guard, and was probably worrying about what would happen to Harry if he got fired for whatever trumped-up reason Umbridge could find.

In other words, I think there's a glimmer that Severus cared for Harry in some capacity as early as Chapter 18 of OotP, well before the Occlumency lessons.

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Originally Posted by PotterGurl08 View Post
Yes, Harry did indeed hate Snape--but he hated Snape because Snape hated him first.
Nope, Harry went into his first Potions class with a dislike for Snape, partly conscious, partly subconscious. He knew (or thought he did) that Snape made his scar hurt at the feast the night before; he had also had the nightmare in which Snape figured prominently. True, Snape jumped on him with both feet, but I personally don't feel he asked anything out of the ordinary -- plenty of classes I've been in, day one the instructor has picked out people and asked questions. It's generally to gauge the level of knowledge in the class.

Was Snape absolutely fair in asking all the questions of Harry? No. Was it fair to expect Harry to have at least cracked the book before school started? Absolutely. I still believe it was a mix between taking Harry down a peg or two (whether he actually needed it or not) and demonstrating to the other students that Mr. Potter was not the Repository of All Wizarding Knowledge and Ability some may have thought him. Given the level of adulation he had in the WW, I think it was a reasonable thing to do. Did Severus do it in a subtle, discreet manner? No. Was it a valid concern? I think so.

I don't think, though, that it's very profitable to the discussion to have a He Started It! No, He Did! argument -- it will bog down the thread and is ultimately unresolvable, IMO. Neither one of them should have hated the other based on the evidence they had to begin with -- there were errors in judgment all the way around.

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Originally Posted by ReelBigFish View Post
Snape seemed to only understand the value of life AFTER he betrayed Lily IMO.
Unfortunately, that holds true for most people. Major changes in world views usually only happen after a hugely traumatic experience. And by the by, I think it's only fair to always remember that (1) when Severus carried the partial prophecy to Voldemort, he did not know Lily would be targeted, and (2) once he found out the Potters were targeted, he did everything in his power to save them (yes, save them all).

As for betraying Lily, I believe that particular sin can only be laid at the feet of one Peter Pettigrew, aka Wormtail.

Standard JMHO, YMMV disclaimer applies.


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Last edited by SadiraSnape; March 5th, 2011 at 4:36 am.
  #515  
Old March 5th, 2011, 6:46 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I think that we can all agree, if it had been any other student they would have been suspended or expelled.
I can't, no. If it had been any other student, this wouldn't have happened the way it has because Draco would most likely have tortured him with an Unforgivable and the student in question wouldn't have been quick enough to cast another spell. And there is never an enquiry into that. I can't forget that Draco smashed his nose and left Harry paralysed and bleeding profusely under the Invisibility Cloak with no qualms about the possible consequences. Two wrongs do not make something right and Harry was wrong to use that spell. But, in his defence, he didn't know what it would do and he knew he had to act quickly because Draco would strike hard and with no scruples about the damage he might cause. Snape, on the other hand, probably used the same spell in SWM and he knew what it was doing as he had created the spell. Snape created a spell he labelled 'for enemies'. By the way, I don't think he should have been expelled for that.

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Ron's pet was a rat at the time and he saw Buckbeak and later Sirius-Dog eat rats, which seems worse than what Snape does to Trevor. JMO
I don't think Neville cried himself to sleep over any toad being used in Potions. But this was his pet toad which he'd had with him since the day he arrived at Hogwarts. I really don't see how Sirius living off rats while in dog form is the same as Snape using Neville's pet toad as a lab toad when everyone including Neville knew that he was pants at Potions.

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I have trouble understanding why it's so hard to believe that, after several years of protecting Harry, watching him grow into a courageous and fiercely loyal young man, watching him go through all that he'd been through from the time Voldemort regenerated, and seeing him become a pretty accomplished wizard, Severus might not have eventually grown to like Harry. Maybe it's just me, but, I think the human spirit is more resiliant than that.
It's not hard to believe. I just don't see any canon for it. And, in my view, Snape never caring for Harry doesn't diminish Snape's efforts to keep Harry alive.


  #516  
Old March 5th, 2011, 7:28 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
I can't, no. If it had been any other student, this wouldn't have happened the way it has because Draco would most likely have tortured him with an Unforgivable and the student in question wouldn't have been quick enough to cast another spell. And there is never an enquiry into that. I can't forget that Draco smashed his nose and left Harry paralysed and bleeding profusely under the Invisibility Cloak with no qualms about the possible consequences. Two wrongs do not make something right and Harry was wrong to use that spell. But, in his defence, he didn't know what it would do and he knew he had to act quickly because Draco would strike hard and with no scruples about the damage he might cause. Snape, on the other hand, probably used the same spell in SWM and he knew what it was doing as he had created the spell. Snape created a spell he labelled 'for enemies'. By the way, I don't think he should have been expelled for that.

I really feel that the "Draco-Student X" fight is speculation. It would depend on the student and their abilities, etc.

I probably wasn't clear in the point I was making. What I feel is that any other student, besides Harry, who'd been caught by a teacher, wand in hand, after injuring another student as badly as Harry did Draco, would have been expelled. I'm not even sure a plea of self-defense would suffice for using a spell which one knows absolutely nothing about and causing what could have been fatal injuries. Yes, Harry saw it was marked "for enemies," so, did he think it was going to throw flowers at them?

I also think Draco should have been suspended for what he did to Harry on the train. To tell the truth, I'm not sure why any of the incarcerated DE's children were allowed to return to school -- that, to me is just asking for trouble. And, that's exactly what they got.

I agree. Severus shouldn't have been expelled for inventing the spell. But, if he'd used it to the degree that Harry did, I would have expected some form of punishment, suspension or expulsion. IMO, you can't have students running around slicing and dicing each other like that.

Quote:
I don't think Neville cried himself to sleep over any toad being used in Potions. But this was his pet toad which he'd had with him since the day he arrived at Hogwarts. I really don't see how Sirius living off rats while in dog form is the same as Snape using Neville's pet toad as a lab toad when everyone including Neville knew that he was pants at Potions.
IMO, Severus was using a teaching method that he felt would put enough pressure on Neville that he'd really take extra care and try to make his potion correctly. I also think that he knew, even though he'd warned her not to, Hermione was going to help Neville because of the risk to Trevor. But, since he'd warned her, he had to dock points to maintain discipline (IMO).

For safety sake, I would expect Severus (or any teacher) to have the antidote readily available, and, I'm sure he'd have used it if it came to that -- or, if the potion had looked wrong, he might have just "accidentally" dropped it before administering it to Trevor -- but, that's speculation. What we do know is that both Neville and Trevor survived, neither much the worse for wear.

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It's not hard to believe. I just don't see any canon for it. And, in my view, Snape never caring for Harry doesn't diminish Snape's efforts to keep Harry alive.
And, yet, I do see many hints in the canon. So, that shows that people can read the same thing and come away with different perceptions. It doesn't make either right or wrong, just makes life more interesting. It would be pretty boring if we all saw everything the same way -- and, we wouldn't have much to write about here.


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Last edited by MinervasCat; March 5th, 2011 at 7:30 am.
  #517  
Old March 5th, 2011, 9:45 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "right until the end he belittled Harry and James" when his dying moments were given over to making sure Harry had the information he needed to complete Dumbledore's plan, and, when he gave Harry, at the very least, memories of his mother as a child and teenager that he would not have had otherwise. Laying aside our beliefs as to why these memories were given, I think we can both agree that Harry would have never seen his mother the way he did except through Severus' memories, and that was something I think Harry would have wanted to see.

As for Severus being "part of the cause" of James' death; Severus only carried part of an ambiguous Prophecy to his boss, The Dark Lord. The interpretation of it was made by Voldemort. He chose to kill a child, not Severus. Once it was clear that Lily was in danger Severus went, at risk of his own life, to beg Dumbledore for her safety...eventually, their safety, and promised "anything" to make sure this happened. Had it not been for the betrayal of one of James' best friends, Lily and her family would have been safe, based on what Severus did to help protect them. So, personally, I do not see him as "partly responsible" for their deaths. I see him as responsible for carrying an ambiguous Prophecy to the Dark Lord, which was wrong. But, he was a much different person at that time than the Professor Snape that Harry meets at Hogwarts many years later.

We see him, durng Harry's First Year, telling Dumbledore that he's like his father and saying that he is arrogant and a mediocre student, etc. I'm not familiar with any other conversations with Dumbledore or other teachers where he criticizes Harry after he sees Harry's memories in OotP. In PoA, he suggests Harry be expelled, but, he knew it would never happen, so, IMO, it was an empty gesture, possibly for show or possibly because Harry had aided a man the entire Wizarding World thought was a murderer and the betrayer of the Potters.

If, by his mistreatment of Harry in HBP, you're referring to the detention and copying the card files, I find that, as a punishment for nearly killing another student, pretty mild. I think that we can all agree, if it had been any other student they would have been suspended or expelled.

When Severus leaves the Sword in the pond for Harry, he hides and remains there for a while -- Ron even remarks that he thinks he saw someone -- IMO, this was to make sure Harry was safe while retrieving the Sword. If he could have just laid it on the ground and left it for Harry to pick up, I think he would have done that. But, the Sword had to be "won" under some trying circumstance.

I tend to interpret Severus' actions as Headmaster, trying to keep his true purpose as a spy concealed while doing what he could to keep the students safe, shows that he had changed and that everything wasn't just for Lily anymore. I feel that there was a point when it became about saving all of those he could, and that meant helping to make sure that Voldemort was vanquished once and for all. I don't believe this was done for Lily, alone, but for everyone, magic and non-magic folk alike.

I think if we took all of Ms. Rowlings non-book statements about Severus and put them together, it would be pretty confusing because I've read so many things that she's said that just don't go with what she wrote, I sometimes wonder if she read her own books.

I, again, offer Bellatrix criticizm of Severus as a do-nothing DE who was never around when the action started. She complained that he ran and hid. She was shocked when he agreed to make the Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed. IMO, this, and the criticism by other DEs that Severus mentions, seems to indicate he was not a "grab your torch and pitchfork and let'ts go roast some Muggles" kind of guy. I feel he stepped back into the shadows once he realized what he'd gotten himslef into, and that he did only what he had to do to stay alive and to win enough favor that Voldemort didn't want to use him for an example of what happens to slacker DEs.

I agree that the Severus of 21-22 did not value human life and, as long as he didn't have to actually do it or see it, was not that affected by the deaths of others. This is a totally different Severus than we see ten years later. The beginning of this, as I see it, was his meeting with Dumbledore on the hilltop, and his being shamed into realizing what he had become. Dumbledore held a mirror up to Severus and I don't think he liked what he saw. So, he promised "anything" if Dumbledore would protect them all. Did that mean he cared about James and Harry at that exact time? No. I don't think so. I do, however feel it was the beginning of his redemption and of starting to value human life, no matter whose it was.

And, it wasn't Severus who betrayed Lily and her family. It was their best friend, Peter Pettigrew. The Prophecy never stated that Harry was "the one," and, I'm not even sure whether Severus knew that Lily was expecting at the time he carried it to Voldemort. The actual "betrayal" took place about a week before the Potters were killed.



I totally agree. But I don't think cold and unpleasant is the same as evil and uncaring.

In the pensieve scenes he gave Harry we consistently see SNape describe Harry in a negative context - mediocre arrogant etc and at the end of HBP when Harry is doing detention Snape sneers at Harry about James and Sirius "It must be such a great comfort to think that though they are gone a record of their great achievements remain.

I must diagree with you here - Snape most definitely IMO bears some responsibility for the Potters death and Harry being an orphan. He did not just carry part of an ambiguous prophecy to Voldemort - the prophecy clearly stated that a child to be born to those who thrice defied Voldemort and he would be the one to vanquish the Dark Lord - how is that ambigous? The interpretation and actions may be on Voldemort but he would never have known that the prophecy existed if Snape had not told him about it so to me that makes Snape totally culpable here. Snape may have gone to Dumbledore but he only cared about saving Lilys life not Harry or James. Peter betrayed Lily and James yes but Snape was the one who got the ball rolling reporting the phrophecy so he is also partly responsible.


we also see Snape during Harrys sixth year calling Harry a mediocre magician and incapable of occlumency. To me it does not matter if he knew Harry would not be expelled he still suggested it. In POA he tells Harry he is a nasty attention seeker just like his father who strutted around School. In Chamber of Secrets he tried to get Harry thrown off the Quidditch team. In HBP when Harry is late to the School because Draco has immobilised him and broken his nose Snape takes great delight in "I suppose you wanted to make an entrance Potter and with no flying car you decided thar bursting into the Great Hall halfway through the feast ought to create a dramatic effect.
no cloak you can walk in so that everyone sees you which is what you wanted I'm sure.

I have no problem with Harry getting detention for what he did but it was what Snape said to him during that time about james and Sirius that bothered me. I think Snape was also covering his onw rear there because if Harry had been expelled he would have told them where he got the Spell and we all know that Snape invented it.

Could you please direct me to the Canon that states Snape stayed behind in the Forest after he sent the doe??

Belltatrixs comments to me could mean anything - as in he did not get his hands dirty after Voldemorts return. To me it is fairly easy to see Snape getting his hands dirty he was after all a fully fledged Death Eater dark mark and all.

Saying Peter betrayed the Potters is true but it does not mean Snape has no responsibility here - not to mention the fact that he had no problem with the prophecy meaning that a child would be killed until he realised who was targeted.

Bottom line for me is that Snape was in the wrong from the start in how he treated Harry and his other students. For all the people who insist Harry was primed to hate Snape right from the start - well I see it a bit differently and that it was Snape who hated Harry from the start - from birth until death because of who he was and what he represented. Snape hated Harry before he even walked into The Great Hall on Harrys first night and hated him until the day Snape died.


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  #518  
Old March 5th, 2011, 10:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by PotterGurl08 View Post
But then, I have a hard time thinking so because if he did develop some type of feeling, even the smallest inkling of caring, I think he would have continued those Occlumency lessons. Snape's allowing his anger/annoyance get in the way of continuing Occlumency is inexcusable to me. It ended with terrible consequences (Sirius' death). A part of me wants to hope that a part of Snape felt guilty about this, but considering how much he hated Sirius, I doubt it. Especially since in HBP, Snape was kind enough to make Harry, a mourning kid, go through old files of deceased father and recently deceased godfather for detention (a part of the book that still just makes me cringe on behalf of Harry; that was just too low).
See, that's where I can't bring myself to like Harry - or even excuse him for being a kid. He invaded a man's privacy - and why? Because he wasn't pleasant to him? From Snape's point of view - if THAT doesn't prove that young Mr Potter believes at some level that the world must go around him, then what would?

Even if you want to dismiss that as Snape acting out of angst and not behaving like an adult - IMO, Snape was scared that Harry saw his memories. He was obviously hiding a lot in that Pensieve in case Harry broke through the barriers in his mind. He was hiding all those memories with Lily in them. He was hiding his love for a 15-year-old student's mother in there.

And he didn't really know how much Harry Potter saw. He could only guess - may be hope that he didn't see much more than his 'worst' memory - that he didn't read too much into it. I think Snape wouldn't want to get too close to the boy after that. For 2 reasons:

1. Snape was emotionally battered. He doesn't want Lily's son to know he was in love with his mother. Too much explaining - especially when the boy in question has proved time and again that he can't really keep his nose out of anything that - he believes - concerns him.

2. He was teaching Occlumency to Harry because he had a connection to Voldemort. As a spy, there's only so much he can risk Harry knowing. Terrible as he was at shielding his mind, if Harry knew - and in turn Voldemort knew - that Snape still loved Lily, I don't see Snape spying, or for that matter even surviving, for much longer. And again, I don't think he was afraid to die. He was scared that the whole plan would be compromised by his dying or not being able to spy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervasCat
If, by his mistreatment of Harry in HBP, you're referring to the detention and copying the card files, I find that, as a punishment for nearly killing another student, pretty mild. I think that we can all agree, if it had been any other student they would have been suspended or expelled.

When Harry found Draco in the bathroom - surely, someone who's seen as much as Harry Potter has should know that attacking the boy who was in THAT bad a shape with a curse he knew NOTHING about wasn't the smartest decision? Snape did what he had to as a teacher. Minerva would have done the same. Dumbledore didn't quite protest because I'm sure he agreed with Snape at some level, IMHO. That the 'detention' was to copy out the misdeed of his father and godfather might just have to show Mr Potter that even his beloved role-models - who, everyone knows Snape isn't fond of - even they didn't do something that ridiculous to a fellow student. JMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReelBigFish
Bottom line for me is that Snape was in the wrong from the start in how he treated Harry and his other students. For all the people who insist Harry was primed to hate Snape right from the start - well I see it a bit differently and that it was Snape who hated Harry from the start - from birth until death because of who he was and what he represented. Snape hated Harry before he even walked into The Great Hall on Harrys first night and hated him until the day Snape died.
IMHO, just because Snape isn't all rainbows and butterflies does not make him a bad person - at all. We've all had teachers who have great knowledge in their respective subjects - but aren't exactly the most patient souls around. Should they then be teachers at all? - that's another debate, and I think here it's pretty safe to assume Snape didn't quite have a wide choice of careers.

But to say he hated Harry from the moment he was born to when Snape died is not right, IMO.

Which is where something I've wanted to discuss for quite a while comes in - Snape loved Lily, yes. He loved her a lot. But over the years, how much of what he did was really dictated by his 'love' for her - and how much was just the person he'd grown up to be?

At some level, wasn't it just the 'idea' of loving Lily that anchored him to what were - in effect - his own beliefs and personality? Any thoughts?


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  #519  
Old March 5th, 2011, 11:47 am
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Melaszka  Female.gif Melaszka is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

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Originally Posted by SoOriginal View Post
See, that's where I can't bring myself to like Harry - or even excuse him for being a kid. He invaded a man's privacy - and why? Because he wasn't pleasant to him? From Snape's point of view - if THAT doesn't prove that young Mr Potter believes at some level that the world must go around him, then what would?
While it would be off-topic to get into an extended discussion of Harry's motive here, I never read it that Harry looked in the Pensieve because Snape was unpleasant to him, but because of natural curiosity.

Yes, he still shouldn't have done it. Yes, I expect Snape genuinely believes that Harry did it through malice, but I think it is still indicative of a part of Snape's personality that always wants to put the worst construction on what Harry does.

Quote:
Even if you want to dismiss that as Snape acting out of angst and not behaving like an adult - IMO, Snape was scared that Harry saw his memories. He was obviously hiding a lot in that Pensieve in case Harry broke through the barriers in his mind. He was hiding all those memories with Lily in them. He was hiding his love for a 15-year-old student's mother in there
But Harry also had things in his memories that he was frightened and embarrassed about Snape accessing (startlingly similar things to what Snape wishes to hide, actually - humiliating memories of having been bullied and intimate, romantic memories of his feelings for a girl which he desperately wishes to remain private), and yet Snape didn't give him the chance to hide them in a Pensieve.

To me, that is a flaw in Snape's personality - he cannot accept that a teenager's feelings and fears should be taken as seriously as an adult's and he cannot conceive of the fact that Harry, in particular, might have undergone things in his short life which are as hurtful and serious as the things he himself has gone through and that he has a right to privacy, too.

For me, part of Snape's tragedy is that he is so busy trying to see James in Harry (the James who, through no fault of his own, had a golden childhood with adoring parents, was hugely popular with his peer group and faced no serious danger or unpleasantness) that he fails to see that Harry's experiences are far more like his own.

Quote:
When Harry found Draco in the bathroom - surely, someone who's seen as much as Harry Potter has should know that attacking the boy who was in THAT bad a shape with a curse he knew NOTHING about wasn't the smartest decision? Snape did what he had to as a teacher. Minerva would have done the same. Dumbledore didn't quite protest because I'm sure he agreed with Snape at some level, IMHO. That the 'detention' was to copy out the misdeed of his father and godfather might just have to show Mr Potter that even his beloved role-models - who, everyone knows Snape isn't fond of - even they didn't do something that ridiculous to a fellow student. JMO.
I don't entirely agree with that. Yes, I agree that Snape had to punish Harry, but I feel that he was deliberately sadistic in the punishment he chose. I cannot believe that McGonagall or Dumbledore would have chosen the same punishment (although they would undoubtedly have punished Harry) and I think the "malicious smile on his lips", the fact he "sneered" and the sarcastic words he used when he sets the punishment "It must be such a comfort to think that, though they are gone, a record of their great achievements remains..." (remember that Sirius has been dead less than a year when he says this and Harry's pain is still raw) suggest that his intention in setting this punishment is malice, not any benevolent plan to educate Harry.

Quote:
IMHO, just because Snape isn't all rainbows and butterflies does not make him a bad person - at all
I totally agree. I love Snape. But I love him because he makes mistakes, lets his feelings get the better of him and behaves very badly, in a very human way. I would find him far less interesting if I believed that everything he did could be explained away and justified.


  #520  
Old March 5th, 2011, 12:46 pm
SoOriginal  Female.gif SoOriginal is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
But Harry also had things in his memories that he was frightened and embarrassed about Snape accessing (startlingly similar things to what Snape wishes to hide, actually - humiliating memories of having been bullied and intimate, romantic memories of his feelings for a girl which he desperately wishes to remain private), and yet Snape didn't give him the chance to hide them in a Pensieve.
Perhaps because Harry was supposed to learn to hide them from Voldemort? Like fear, embarassment is a motivation for learning - Harry did try very hard when Snape was pushing his buttons. But just not hard enough. Maybe the short glimpses of young Snape that Harry saw made Harry want Snape to know more, even if he would never accept that, even to himself? (Another discussion for a different thread? )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
To me, that is a flaw in Snape's personality - he cannot accept that a teenager's feelings and fears should be taken as seriously as an adult's and he cannot conceive of the fact that Harry, in particular, might have undergone things in his short life which are as hurtful and serious as the things he himself has gone through and that he has a right to privacy, too.
Snape might be dismissive of the adolescent feelings of a 15 year old, but I would like to believe the memories of Harry at the Dursleys weren't something Snape would have not cared about. And, again, did Snape at some level want to know more about Harry's childhood - and did he feel that the only way he could was during their occlumency training? Surely, it would be a little too out of character to invite him to tea and discuss his memories, no? I love the dynamics between these two boys a little too much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I totally agree. I love Snape. But I love him because he makes mistakes, lets his feelings get the better of him and behaves very badly, in a very human way. I would find him far less interesting if I believed that everything he did could be explained away and justified.
I agree, he makes mistakes and that's what makes him multi-dimensional and more interesting. But I would put his particular malice towards Sirius in that category. Everything related to Snape and Harry has too many layers to just call it the Professor's personality issues.


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