Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

I think Snape did actually want the DADA position, and let DD know he wanted it, however I don't picture him asking or sending an application year by year. Perhaps Snape considered himself able to rid the position from its curse.

Since the position was open every year, I believe DADA was the position for which Voldemort originally sent Snape to Dumbledore. Can't say what Voldie expected to happen at the end of the school year!!

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

I think Snape did actually want the DADA position, and let DD know he wanted it, however I don't picture him asking or sending an application year by year. Perhaps Snape considered himself able to rid the position from its curse.

I have to agree with you. We have a lot of canon in the book that states this too, everyone from Percy to the Twins, to Dumbledore, and even Snape himself. Umbridge knew that he applied for the position. And Snape had a conversation with Bellatrix about it. There are so many characters who make this claim that it seems very likely to be true, imo.

And I also thought that Snape considered himself able to rid the position of the curse. Or maybe he didn't believe in the curse, although that would be speculation.

I have to disagree with the theory that he pretended to want the position in order to keep his cover. When you are a double agent, you have to try and stay neutral, not look like you are favoring any position, in my opinion. Wanting to teach DADA could make some people question whether he had really reformed, as I view it. So, in my opinion, he wanted the position in spite of how people would view it, not because of how people would view it, if that makes sense.

[Hiker]

Quoted from SadiraSnape. (quote button not working for me today.)

Nice turn of phrase. If I casually overheard that somewhere I'd think immediately of Snape.

[Daggerstone]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

We know that Snape did not enjoy teaching Gryffindors, but we never see him in the classroom with Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs. Based on what we know of Snape's interests, abilities, and pet peeves, might a Potions class with brainiac Ravenclaws and diligent Hufflepuffs have gone more smoothly? Or would Snape have been as frustrated in double-potions with these other houses as he was with teaching Gryffindor?

As we only ever see him teaching the Harry/Draco/Ron/Crabbe/Hermione/Goyle/Neville mix, I think his mood in other classes could only go uphill - can you even begin to imagine the kind of headaches one'd sport trying to teach that particular bunch?

Originally Posted by SusanBones

And I also thought that Snape considered himself able to rid the position of the curse.

So you're saying Snape knew how to end the curse, yet chose not to inform Dumbledore about it?

Originally Posted by Hiker

Nice turn of phrase. If I casually overheard that somewhere I'd think immediately of Snape.

Ha! Hear that, Morgoth? Snape, not me!

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

So you're saying Snape knew how to end the curse, yet chose not to inform Dumbledore about it?

Yes, so that he could have all the glory for himself. No, seriously, I don't think there is any proof of anything, but if we wanted the position, then he couldn't have been too concerned about the curse, could he?

[sekhmetlion]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

So you're saying Snape knew how to end the curse, yet chose not to inform Dumbledore about it?

Maybe he thought there was no real curse, or that he could be able to confront whatever the course put in his way and thus rid the post from the curse.
I don't think for a secaond that, if for example Dumbledore took the post himself, the curse had him sacked at the end of the year.

Both, Snape and Dumbledore must have thought that since Dumbledore intended Snape to stay at Hogwarts after his death. I don't buy that DD suspected that the post Voldemort would assign to Snape would be Headmaster.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by SusanBones

When you are a double agent, you have to try and stay neutral, not look like you are favoring any position, in my opinion. Wanting to teach DADA could make some people question whether he had really reformed, as I view it.

Whether Snape wanted the DADA position or not, this is not, according to my understanding, an accurate interpretation of double agency. RL double agents often do not look neutral. They often look like they are working for the opposite side from the side they are actually working for. There is only one person on the double agent's own side who needs to know where the double agent truly stands: his spymaster.

If we apply this RL paradigm to Snape, this means that it is not as important for Snape to prove himself to the people whose side he's actually serving as it is for him to prove himself to the people whose side he's working against. The only person who needs to know his true loyalties is Dumbledore (his spymaster). The opinions of the people in the Order and Dumbledore's Army are completely irrelevant. In fact, it's often better for a double agent to be mistrusted by people on his own side because that mistrust buys more credibility with the side he's working against.

So, Susan, this is the long way of saying that I disagree with your assessment that a double agent needs to appear neutral. The opposite is often, in fact, the case.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

Both, Snape and Dumbledore must have thought that since Dumbledore intended Snape to stay at Hogwarts after his death. I don't buy that DD suspected that the post Voldemort would assign to Snape would be Headmaster.

Perhaps not, but IMO it does seem to be inferred in the following conversation between them:

"Lord Voldemort foresees a moment in the near future when he will not need a spy at Hogwarts?"

"He believes the school will soon be in his grasp, yes."

"And if it does fall into his grasp," said Dumbledore, almost, it seemed, as an aside, "I have your word that you will do all in your will do all in your power to protect the students of Hogwarts?"

Snape gave a stiff nod.

(DH pg. 682, US trade ppbk.)

IMO the DADA curse was not broken so Snape will not be returning to that position the following school year, it seems reasonable to me that Voldemort would make him Headmaster. Just my opinion of course.

[sekhmetlion]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Perhaps not, but IMO it does seem to be inferred in the following conversation between them:

(DH pg. 682, US trade ppbk.)

IMO the DADA curse was not broken so Snape will not be returning to that position the following school year, it seems reasonable to me that Voldemort would make him Headmaster. Just my opinion of course.

Sorry, but from that conversation I only infer that DD wanted Snape to come back as staff member, supossing Voldemort would use his skills and experience in controlling the school. Also Hogwarts is very important to Voldemort, so he wouldn't let an inexperience person on top of it. But to me it just infers that DD thinks Snape would be used in Hogwarts again and thus being in a possition to protect students.
Other way of seeing it, is to think that DD asked Snape, that if he (Snape) was not in Hogwarts, at least he should try to use his influence over Voldemort or the DE to save the students.

And how do we know the DADA curse was not broken? had Voldemort considered Snape suitable for the post, nothing would be in his way to be the DADA teacher. The curse, in my opinion, only works because the circumstances allow it to work (similar to the prophecies).

About needing to prove your loyalties to the side you are actually spying. I am not so sure. That would be a way of drawing attention towards you, so it could lead a smart person to realize you are actually faking. However if you are unnoticed, then you will be free to move and act as you will.
So I think wanting the DADA post was a personal choice for Severus. He might have been limited in his lifestyle due to spying, however he still had some power to decide about some things.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Perhaps not, but IMO it does seem to be inferred in the following conversation between them:

(DH pg. 682, US trade ppbk.)

IMO the DADA curse was not broken so Snape will not be returning to that position the following school year, it seems reasonable to me that Voldemort would make him Headmaster. Just my opinion of course.

I do think the passage you quoted between Dumbledore and Snape indicates that Dumbledore believed Voldemort would appoint Snape Headmaster - particularly in the wake of his own death at Snape's hands (another topic Dumbledore and Snape discussed during that conversation).

Now, I don't believe Dumbledore would have gone the extreme of having Snape kill him just to get Snape into Voldemort's good graces. But I do think that when the opportunity (i.e., the ring curse) presented itself, he recognized that his death would lead to Snape's elevation in DE ranks, and almost certainly to Snape's appointment as Headmaster.

It's usually best to appoint people who know the terrain, and Snape knew Hogwarts. There was nobody else on staff believed to be loyal to Voldemort, so no other previous staff member (including McGonnagall) would have stood a chance of being appointed.

I suppose that if Voldemort were being strategically foolish, he could have appointed the Carrows, but he revealed considerably more strategic ability than that in his infiltration and ultimate takeover of MoM. So I strongly doubt he would have made such a strategically foolish maneuver.

Basically, Snape was the most logical candidate under the circumstances, and Voldemort believed him loyal. Dumbledore knew Voldemort often better than Voldemort knew himself, so I do think he anticipated that Voldemort would appoint Snape Headmaster.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

RL double agents often do not look neutral. They often look like they are working for the opposite side from the side they are actually working for.

This could be taken the same way, I guess. It would be really hard to look like you are working on both sides at once. How do you appear like you are a Death Eater and an Order member at the same time? I would think that it would be a lot easier to appear neutral. Maybe real life spies don't do this.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by SusanBones

Yes, so that he could have all the glory for himself. No, seriously, I don't think there is any proof of anything, but if we wanted the position, then he couldn't have been too concerned about the curse, could he?

But to me the reverse is true: if he knew about the curse along with the other teachers, then he knew Dumbledore would never give him the position because it would put him out on the street long before Harry left school, which would ruin the whole plan of Snape being the spy who stayed at Hogwarts.

So to me, it seems that he and Dumbledore may have ("may" have) concocted the plan of submitting fake requests as a paper trail in case Voldemort came back. And we know that Snape and Dumbledore felt that Voldemort would return someday from The Prince's Tale, since it's the basis of Snape's continuing protection of Harry since his babyhood.

I think Snape realized that if Dumbledore couldn't break the curse on the DADA job, then neither could he. I think Snape was well-aware of his own limitations, and by the time he took the job he was the only one who knew that Dumbledore just had a year to live due to the other curse he could only "stopper" but couldn't reverse - the one from the horcrux ring. So he never expected to have the job for more than a year, in my opinion. And given that the Dark Lord was "rising" and taking over the Ministry, it wasn't as if Snape expected to be in the job very long, and he knew that the Headmaster's job would be open when Dumbledore died, and they took advantage of that as well, which is why Dumbledore made Snape promise to protect the school.

Therefore, I feel that Snape/Dumbledore used their knowledge of the curse to their logistical advantage, but there was no way to break the curse. Even the Carrows only lasted a year as well, so maybe the curse could only be broken upon Voldemort's death.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

But to me the reverse is true: if he knew about the curse along with the other teachers, then he knew Dumbledore would never give him the position because it would put him out on the street long before Harry left school, which would ruin the whole plan of Snape being the spy who stayed at Hogwarts.

So to me, it seems that he and Dumbledore may have ("may" have) concocted the plan of submitting fake requests as a paper trail in case Voldemort came back.

Unfortunately, there isn't anything in the books to show any of this planning. I find it believable, in the context of the story and from the words of many characters, that he wanted the position. We don't know if he believed it was cursed or not. It isn't mentioned in the books. It seemed to me that he loved having the job once he finally got it, though, from Hermione's and Harry's conversation in HBP.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by SusanBones

This could be taken the same way, I guess. It would be really hard to look like you are working on both sides at once. How do you appear like you are a Death Eater and an Order member at the same time? I would think that it would be a lot easier to appear neutral. Maybe real life spies don't do this.

Yeah, the thing about double agents is that almost by definition they do not look like they are working on both sides at once. They look like they are working on the opposite side from the side they are actually working on. See Juan Pujol Garcia (a.k.a. "Garbo") for an example of a RL double agent. He didn't seem neutral. He seemed to be working for the Nazis, but was in fact working for the Allies.

Based on the accuracy of JKR's portrayal of double agency, I would say that it's reasonable to assume that she researched RL double agency when drawing Snape, and I think it's likely JKR probably based some elements of Snape's double agency on "Garbo" - esp. the information Snape passed on to Voldemort in advance of the 7 Potters.

In actuality, killing Dumbledore did not undermine Snape's double agency (i.e. by making him no longer appear neutral). It enhanced his double agency by giving him seemingly flawless DE credentials.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

He went to Dumbledore with too little, too late in my mind.

I disagree. I think he went to Dumbledore with enough to protect the Potters from being targets of the Prophecy - that is if they were not betrayed by their friends imo.

Peter only gave out the address.

Yes; and I also think he would not be guilty if, after he gave the address he realised how wrong he was, and came to Dumbledore or James and immediately removed himself as SK. Had Peter done something like this, I think I would also not hold him guilty. But he did not; he gave the address so that Voldemort could enter and kill the Potters and he was okay with doing that. So, I find him culpable.

How was he supposed to know what Voldemort was going to do?

Perhaps he did not; but he also knew that the whole purpose of the Potters going under the Fidelus with a SK was to be safe from Voldemort. By telling Voldemort, I think Peter defeated the purpose of the Fidelus, which I believe made him culpable.

Where is Legilimency mentioned?

"Liar," said Snape. Harry's throat went dry. He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it...

The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy of Advanced Potion-Making swam hazily to the forefront of his mind.

And then he was staring at Snape again, in the midst of this wrecked, soaked bathroom. He stared into Snape's black eyes, hoping against hope that Snape had not seen what he feared, but -- - HBP - Sectumsempra

I thought this was Legilimency.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

ETA: About DADA: I think the "letter year after year" was a cover story that worked to Dumbledore/Snape's advantage with Umbridge in OotP. Snape and the other teachers knew the position was cursed, according to CoS when Gilderoy was the only one who would take the job.

I think it was a cover concocted between Snape and Dumbledore to fool others that Snape was desperately after the DADA job, but it was withheld so that his 'dark' tendencies could be curbed. This is also what Snape tells Bellatrix in Spinner's End as well imo.

"Gesture!" she shrieked; in her fury she looked slightly mad. "While I endured the dementors, you remained at Hogwarts, comfortably playing Dumbledore's pet!"

"Not quite," said Snape calmly. "He wouldn't give me the Defense Against the Dark Arts job, you know. Seemed to think it might, ah, bring about a relapse...tempt me into my old ways." - HBP - Spinner's End

Originally Posted by gabriele87

It's called an inference. Authors don't always tell you what is happening in a story, but they will show you or hint at it. And based on Harry's Occlumency sessions in OOTP, Snape is clearly using Legilimency against Harry in this moment. The description of having your mind invaded is similar to OOTP's description, and Harry thinks to himself that Snape was seeing his thoughts.

Originally Posted by SadiraSnape

Can't you just see her asking him if his head was full of wrackspurts ("Pardon me, Professor, you seem distracted today. Are the wrackspurts bothering you much? They're certainly a nuisance...")? Or peering at him through the SpectreSpecs in class? But for all we know, she was his favorite student -- she's bright and has a different way of thinking about things, she may have found new ways to brew a Potion that would be vastly superior to the standard way... I think Sev would have appreciated a student who could think so easily outside the box.

I would have loved to see Snape and Luna have a conversation. And I agree Snape would have appreciated her for her novel thinking and her insightful comments about all things and people.

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Whether Snape wanted the DADA position or not, this is not, according to my understanding, an accurate interpretation of double agency. RL double agents often do not look neutral. They often look like they are working for the opposite side from the side they are actually working for. There is only one person on the double agent's own side who needs to know where the double agent truly stands: his spymaster.

If we apply this RL paradigm to Snape, this means that it is not as important for Snape to prove himself to the people whose side he's actually serving as it is for him to prove himself to the people whose side he's working against. The only person who needs to know his true loyalties is Dumbledore (his spymaster). The opinions of the people in the Order and Dumbledore's Army are completely irrelevant. In fact, it's often better for a double agent to be mistrusted by people on his own side because that mistrust buys more credibility with the side he's working against.

Great post.

And it keeps his side safe from any suggested kidnappings that the other side may want the double agent to do, because of his *position of trust* within his side imo.

[MinervasCat]

I'm thinking just because Severus "couldn't" take the DADA position, due to the curse, doesn't necessarily mean he didn't want it. IMO, he may have wanted it and thoroughly enjoyed the time he spent teaching it. I seriously doubt, though, that he would have submitted an application each year (unless he did need to leave a paper trail), and, I would guess that Dumbledore would not have considered it because he couldn't risk losing Severus from Hogwarts. But, it did seem to be common knowledge, even among the students (Percy mentions it in SS/PS) that Severus wanted that position. I think he probably did an excellent job while in it, and that it's a shame he couldn't have taken the position from the start because the students really needed training in Defense Against the Dark Arts.

As for Severus being in a position to protect the students -- it seems fairly logical that he would be the top contender for Headmaster once Voldemort took over. He already had the experience (although I doubt that would have been important to Voldy if he'd wanted someone else in there), and it was a fitting "reward" for having killed Dumbledore. IMO, Voldemort would have wanted someone there who knew the school and staff very well in order to keep an eye on things. It would also, I think, have been like rubbing the remaining staff's noses in the fact that he'd taken over and named Dumbledore's killer as Headmaster.

Also, I don't think any of the DADA teachers actually got "sacked," either. Quirrell melted into a pile of ashes. Lockhart "lost" his memory and ended up in St. Mungo's. Lupin resigned. Real Moody only agreed to take the position for a year -- fake Moody went to Azkaban. I think Umbridge "resigned," didn't she? Severus got "promoted." And, the Carrows...well, we know what happened to them. I'd bet they would have rather been sacked.

[MC2456]

1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?

I think so. He, unlike Draco, knew what he was doing when he killed Dumbledore.

2. To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
He had a difficult childhood. That moulded his view of the world, and made him cynical, sarcastic, and unable to trust people easily. And based on his experiences, he made choices which he would later regret.

3. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
He wouldn't have moved on. Snape has shown, in many instances, that he's a one-woman man. I think he'd pine for her for the rest of his life. She was the very first friend he knew, and his childhood sweetheart. I doubt he would stop loving her, unless someone else comes along, which is quite improbable. I bet even if he did marry someone else, Lily Evans would always have a place in his heart, as all first loves do.

4. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
It just shows that we're all made up of different shades of grey. True, Snape may have acted out of love, but he loved only Lily. He detested the Marauders, especially James and Sirius. As for Dumbledore's "murder", the death was planned between them. Snape wanted to fulfill the last wish of his mentor and guide, the man who held both his respect and frustration. I would hardly blame Snape for his frustration with Dumbledore though. I bet anyone who were as close to Dumbledore as Snape (and Harry) were would be quite frustrated by him. Dumbledore is in a league of his own. He has no equal, except maybe Grindlewald.

5. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
I would expect someone who was bullied in his childhood to show more empathy towards people in a similar situation as him. This is a part of Snape that I really detest. Snape knows that Neville was bullied by the Slytherins. He knows that Neville is doing poorly in most of his classes, save Herbology. At least Harry is doing well in most of his classes, and isn't afraid to stand up to Snape. Neville is a different story. He's timid and lacks confidence. Snape should have quit bullying him so much.

6.Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?Probably, if not he wouldn't have showed the memories to Harry.

7. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?Dumbledore was a mentor to Snape.

8. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
Well, she modelled him after a Chemistry teacher she particularly hated. But yes, I do agree with her view of him. He's a flawed hero. Definitely not a saint.

9. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
He's a complex character. He is torn between his love for Lily and his hatred of James. And honestly, Harry is his worst nightmare, after Voldemort. Harry is the representation of the love between Snape's childhood sweetheart and his worst enemy. That's why he hates Harry so much. But to truly hate Harry is to envision James in Harry and not Lily, because to hate Lily, the love of his life, is something impossible. So he focuses on the likeness of James and Harry, while ignoring the Lily part of Harry. Then, he can hate Harry and James in peace. That shows in the Prince's Tale, where he tore the family photo of James, Lily and baby Harry. He kept the half showing Lily, while tossing away James and Harry's half.

Then come the ultimatum issued by Dumbledore: protect Lily's son. Snape agrees, but only when Dumbledore agrees not to reveal anything. He does everything he can to protect Lily Evan's son, even though he hates him.

10. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Resourcefulness, and an ability to love deeply.

11. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
Flawed hero.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

Perhaps Snape considered himself able to rid the position from its curse.

I'm not so sure of this. He appears to have a (IMHO, rather healthy) fear of Voldemort and his abilities (TT posted the quote earlier a few pages back- "'Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard,' Snape muttered. 'While he may feel secure enough to use the name…the rest of us…'" This, in addition to his pallor in GoF before going to Voldemort)

This is, of course, supposing Snape knew the true origin of the curse. If he asked, I don't see why DD wouldn't tell him.

Originally Posted by sekhmetlion

I guess the pairing of the classes was established long ago through Hogwart traditions. It doesn't stuck to me like a place where lots of innovations were made each year.

Oooh, good point. After all, weren't Gryffindor and Slytherin friends at first? Perhaps they chose to place their students together before the break-off.


As for whether or not DD believed Snape would become Headmaster: The text leaves it a bit open, but I think it suggests DD believed Snape would be at Hogwarts in some capacity. Headmaster does make a great deal of sense, considering how a) the current Headmaster would be dead by then, b) Voldemort would want one of his people in the top position, and c) considering the Dark Lord's flair for drama and grand gestures, placing the "murderer" of the previous Headmaster in that position would be very much in character for Voldemort, IMO. DD knew Voldemort fairly well and may have drawn the same conclusion.

[MsJPotter]

Originally Posted by SadiraSnape

We discussed the living daylights out of this particular question: was Sectumsempra Dark Magic a few weeks ago. If you're referring to TFotP, Harry has also tried Crucio while chasing Snape. I don't think it's altogether clear which spell Snape is calling "Dark Magic".

I wasn't here weeks ago and I suppose I trust Snape to know what he is talking about. He knows what the 'Dark Arts' are a whole lot better than I do. If he says something is Dark Magic, I believe him.

TheGreenWoods, I reread that passage in the books last night. I read better from the books a lot of the time, I catch the flavour a whole lot better when I read the whole thing. You're right, there was a flavour of Harry thinking Snape was using Legilimency. I don't know if he was though. I don't think he had too. He knew the spell, he knew he invented it and he knew where he wrote it down. I think he was hopping mad, probably with himself as much as Harry for being so absentminded about the book. He probably never thought that much about it, it had been years since he done Advanced Potions. I cut him some slack over that. My old textbooks are scattered all over the house.
I still think you're giving him too much slack about passing on information to Voldemort and holding Peter too hard on doing the same thing. Sauce for the goose and gander should be the same. When hairs get split to much you can end up bald. People seem to think I don't like Snape. Like is not really how I look at him. I appreciate him but I don't think I'd want to spend time with anybody like him in real life. A whole lot of the time I'm grateful he's just a fictional character and nobody actually real. If I sound like I pay a whole lot of attention to Canon, I suppose it's because for me he doesn't do anything but what is on the page. That's what I judge him on, actions that the author give him to do in Canon. I can't say what he did in a class with the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs, we never see him teaching them. We see him teaching Gryffindors and Slytherins and based on his performance in those classes, he's a pretty lousy teacher, well I think so.

[The_Green_Woods]

I think even if Snape did not ask DD about the curse, he would have known about the position being cursed/jinxed, seeing a DADA Professor walk through the doors each year for several years.

posted by Iggy
As for whether or not DD believed Snape would become Headmaster: The text leaves it a bit open, but I think it suggests DD believed Snape would be at Hogwarts in some capacity. Headmaster does make a great deal of sense, considering how a) the current Headmaster would be dead by then, b) Voldemort would want one of his people in the top position, and c) considering the Dark Lord's flair for drama and grand gestures, placing the "murderer" of the previous Headmaster in that position would be very much in character for Voldemort, IMO. DD knew Voldemort fairly well and may have drawn the same conclusion.