Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.4

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I just find it interesting that the books did not go there (showing Snape teach curses), hence my post. I also find it very interesting that Harry did not agree with Lupin. ("I won't blast people out of the way just because they're there ... That's Voldemort's job.") And of course, at the very end, he protects his friends from Voldemort with Protego, and in his duel with Voldemort, uses Expelliarmus.

I think there is something thematic going on with this, myself. In my opinion, Rowling is trying to say something about the problem inherent in humans who know how to injure, making a decision as to whether it is necessary in a particular instance. (Totally OT remark, this is why I think she had Harry successfully torture Amycus...was this really necessary? ) I think Snape's character arc is exemplifying this theme (among others). In Snape's Worst Memory, for example, Snape is seen using a spell to cut James. He thought it was "necessary", at the time, I would argue. I think it is justifiable under the circumstances, given that he was attacked by two boys in the incident. But was it the best possible response, objectively speaking? Well, probably not...but it gave Snape (momentarily) the satisfaction of hurting his opponent as he himself had been hurt.

Another place where we see mainly "necessary" force is in the fight at the Department of Mysteries. The kids used mostly defensive spells, and even when the adults in the Order of the Phoenix got there they weren't shooting to kill. Sirius died perhaps because he chose to keep dueling beyond what was necessary - everyone else stopped when Dumbledore began to tie up the DEs. And I think when Harry tried to Crucio Bellatrix he crossed a line because instead of being defensive, he was chasing her down and trying to hurt her out of anger and wanting to avenge the death of Sirius.

In SS/PS, Snape warned the kids about "foolish wand waving," and in CoS we have a prime example of that with Gilderoy Lockhart, who can't control his magic so he ends up creating a dangerous situation with a really angry snake. To me, that's almost a metaphor for the whole series, whether we look at it from the side of Voldemort or Harry being the angry snake/sleeping dragon or whatever. So it's quite appropriate that Snape uses "Expelliarmus" to smackdown Lockhart, and then he "deletes" the snake that is threatening Justin Finch-Fletchley, while in DH we have it in reverse: Neville kills Nagini, then Harry uses Expelliarmus to "delete" Voldemort, the last horcrux.

In both those cases, the "necessary force" fits the situation, since Nagini and Voldemort aren't going to just give up without hurting or killing even more people. And that's why I like the fact that Harry offers Voldemort one last chance to show remorse even though the death was probably inevitable. He could have just killed him matter-of-factly with a dark curse, but he holds himself back as long as possible. That's a mirror, in my opinion, to Snape's hesitation on the Tower just before he kills Dumbledore, as if to say one more time "Are you sure?" before he fulfilled the Headmaster's dying request. (And to me that's why it's important that we only see Snape killing that one person because there was a logic to it and good reasons for it, and it wasn't gratuitous but only so he could hopefully help Harry carry out the final plan - I realize others feel differently about it though).

Originally Posted by Arithmancer

So, in adult Snape's avoidance of such spells, and in not seeing him teach them, I think we are being shown his growth. He knows (IMO) that he is not the best judge of what is "necessary".

Or perhaps as an adult he is willing to do what is necessary but not to be excessive. He's much more controlled than he was as a boy, more calculated and careful.

Using less force is a good strategy for staying alive, because for one thing no one sees you as much of a threat - as with Bellatrix, who thought Snape was a wimp.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I think there is something thematic going on with this, myself. In my opinion, Rowling is trying to say something about the problem inherent in humans who know how to injure, making a decision as to whether it is necessary in a particular instance.

I agree, arithmancer that it is somewhat thematic and it is something that JKR make reference to back in PS/SS.


"You flatter me,"said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have."
"Only because you're too - well - noble to use them."
(PS/SS, The Boy Who Lived)

So, in adult Snape's avoidance of such spells, and in not seeing him teach them, I think we are being shown his growth.

Yes, again I agree with this.

[Melaszka]

I agree with most of this, but what about when he blasts off George's ear? I know he wasn't aiming for George and I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not criticising him - I think he was doing a good job, but surely he wasn't using a defensive spell there? (Don't have the book to hand, so I may have made a massive blooper here)

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I agree with most of this, but what about when he blasts off George's ear? I know he wasn't aiming for George and I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not criticising him - I think he was doing a good job, but surely he wasn't using a defensive spell there? (Don't have the book to hand, so I may have made a massive blooper here)

As far as I understood it Snape's use of Sectumsempra in this instance, was part of his playing being a DE at the time. It had to look realistic. If he had used a purely defensive spell it would have looked suspicious. I thought the reason he used Sectumsempra, was if his plan had worked and he hit the DE, he could claim he was aiming at Lupin. Dumbledore's portrait even tells Snape to be convincing.

"And Severus, if you are forced to take part in the chase, be sure to act your part convincingly…"(DH, The Prince's Tale)

[MinervasCat]

Other that having to use AK on Dumbledore, the "Seven Potters" scene is the only time we see Severus use a spell in offense. I have the same thoughts as TreacleTartlet as to his using Sectumsempra for a specific reason -- well, two reasons: 1) it kept up the appearance he was right in the chase with the other DE's and he could have said it was an accident if he'd hit the DE; 2) he knew the spell and was able to control it with almost surgical precision, so if he missed he'd do as little damage as possible (i.e., he took off an ear instead of just blasting Lupin and George to smithereens as he might have with a less controlable spell).

When SIP mentioned the "foolish wand waving" from Severus' Potions introduction, it also made me think of Harry casting Sectumsempra at Draco and waving his wand "wildly" as he does so.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Other that having to use AK on Dumbledore, the "Seven Potters" scene is the only time we see Severus use a spell in offense.

I think this might be a little up in the air. In particular, Legilimens, while used for a good purpose in this case (teaching), seems the offensive counterpart to a defensive magic (Occlumency).

I think there are exceptions, but, by and large, Severus does move away from offensive spells in his youth to more defensive methods. I think this is actually a very interesting aspect of his character: his role and method of combat against Voldemort is quiet and understated, but nevertheless crucial. He doesn't fight in spells, but in words, and he doesn't go out in an explosion, but quietly doing his duty.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I agree with most of this, but what about when he blasts off George's ear? I know he wasn't aiming for George and I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not criticising him - I think he was doing a good job, but surely he wasn't using a defensive spell there? (Don't have the book to hand, so I may have made a massive blooper here)

I agree this was not a defensive spell. It was, however, also not a case in which Snape's judgment was likely to be clouded by any personal involvement. The Death Eater he attacked was not threatening him (or for that matter, anyone to whom he had any emotional attachment, IMO). He also, we are told, specifically opted to use non-lethal force (as he aimed for the wand-hand). Expelliarmus in his situation would have worked for the short-term purpose of saving Lupin, but (see Lupin's comments to Harry on the same spell) was completely not something a Death Eater would use. Snape was, of course, playing the role of a Death Eater in the scene.

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

"You flatter me,"said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have."
"Only because you're too - well - noble to use them."
(PS/SS, The Boy Who Lived).

Dumbledore states that this description by Minerva made him blush. In my opinion, because he does not feel this correctly describes his reasons for not using such powers. He has, perhaps, used them in the past, as when he may have accidentally killed his sister Ariana. This is again touched upon by Albus in King's Cross, in which he describes why he is, just barely, worthy to possess the "least" of the Hallows. And while he himself considers Harry more worthy, Harry's own judgment seems to be that he should not use the Elder Wand at all, but leave it to lose its powers with his eventual death.

I see Snape's journey, particularly the aspect we are discussing, as another reflection of this idea.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Or perhaps as an adult he is willing to do what is necessary but not to be excessive. He's much more controlled than he was as a boy, more calculated and careful.

He is, I agree, and he very much needs to be because of the dangerous path he has chosen. However, I still believe more than mere pragmatism underlies his stance, because it seems to me he practices this restraint even in situations where he could get away with more.

The climax of PoA is such an instance. He certainly speaks as though he is going to do heinous things sooner rather than later, but the actual actions he takes on page do not follow through on the threats. In my opinion, this is a rare instance in which (pragmatically) he could get away with using serious magic. The Ministry would have given him a medal. He would have been covered with Dumbledore because he was acting to protect Harry from the man (everyone thought) was going to kill him. And he would have been covered with the Death Eaters (we must bear in mind Snape thought he was dealing with one) because his personal feud with the Marauders must certainly be known to at least those of his school years, and he could also have claimed self-defense.

Originally Posted by ignisia

I think this might be a little up in the air. In particular, Legilimens, while used for a good purpose in this case (teaching), seems the offensive counterpart to a defensive magic (Occlumency).

We could also mention the nonverbal hex he aims at Harry in the first DADA lesson. In both cases, he is teaching Harry to defend against magical attack. The distinction I see, is that we do not see him teach such magic. He is teaching Harry to defend himself.

ETA:

I think I may not be getting my idea across fully. When I say that Snape as an adult avoided Dark Curses because he recognized he was not the best judge of when they might be necessary, I am not trying to say he was "still bad", whereas other characters were "good" and did not need to worry about such things, unlike Snape. I believe Rowling's point is that no human can be so "good" they never fall into this trap. So that Snape (or anyone) who comes to recognize this about themselves, has gained in important insight that will enable him (or her) to choose better actions. In reading through the entire discussion, it has occured to me that this idea I am trying to describe is related to the Christian notions of humility (erm, at least as I am familiar with it through my Catholic background) and the notion that all humans are sinners and need to recognize it.

[The_Green_Woods]

Great, great posts!

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Just my opinion, but, it seems with Dumbledore and Severus, they show their strength through restraint. Use only what you have to when you have to and to the limit you have to. In some philosophies, this is the sign of true of power and wisdom.

I think Snape and Dumbledore exercised that restraint deliberately because they knew what such lack of restraint could do; they had seen it at very close quarters and had been devastated by that lack of restraint, Dumbledore when Ariana was killed and Snape when he took the Prophecy to Voldemort. I think it made Snape very cautious about power and it's use (as it did Dumbledore too).

[SadiraSnape]

Originally Posted by ignisia

In particular, Legilimens, while used for a good purpose in this case (teaching), seems the offensive counterpart to a defensive magic (Occlumency).

Ah, but Legilimency isn't Dark Magic -- it's the counterpart of Occlumency. And I can see where Legilimency has a defensive application. It would be useful to be able to see into the thoughts of an opponent in order to block their actions or spells before they've finished casting them.

In fact, I think a case could be made that Severus was Legilimencing Harry during their duel in TFotP...

Originally Posted by ignisia

I think there are exceptions, but, by and large, Severus does move away from offensive spells in his youth to more defensive methods. I think this is actually a very interesting aspect of his character: his role and method of combat against Voldemort is quiet and understated, but nevertheless crucial. He doesn't fight in spells, but in words, and he doesn't go out in an explosion, but quietly doing his duty.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I agree this was not a defensive spell. It was, however, also not a case in which Snape's judgment was likely to be clouded by any personal involvement. The Death Eater he attacked was not threatening him (or for that matter, anyone to whom he had any emotional attachment, IMO). He also, we are told, specifically opted to use non-lethal force (as he aimed for the wand-hand). Expelliarmus in his situation would have worked for the short-term purpose of saving Lupin, but (see Lupin's comments to Harry on the same spell) was completely not something a Death Eater would use. Snape was, of course, playing the role of a Death Eater in the scene.

I think you're right that Snape had to be careful about appearances, due to the circumstances.

And another thing to consider is that that if Snape had done Expelliarmus, he might have disarmed Lupin and George as well as the DE, which wouldn't help Harry very much. In PoA, as I recall, Lupin disarms all three of the kids at once as he enters the Shrieking Shack.

"Expelliarmus!" Lupin shouted.
Harry's wand flew once more out of his hand; so did the two Hermione was
holding. Lupin caught them all deftly

Originally Posted by Arithmancer

He is, I agree, and he very much needs to be because of the dangerous path he has chosen. However, I still believe more than mere pragmatism underlies his stance, because it seems to me he practices this restraint even in situations where he could get away with more.

The climax of PoA is such an instance. He certainly speaks as though he is going to do heinous things sooner rather than later, but the actual actions he takes on page do not follow through on the threats. In my opinion, this is a rare instance in which (pragmatically) he could get away with using serious magic. The Ministry would have given him a medal. He would have been covered with Dumbledore because he was acting to protect Harry from the man (everyone thought) was going to kill him. And he would have been covered with the Death Eaters (we must bear in mind Snape thought he was dealing with one) because his personal feud with the Marauders must certainly be known to at least those of his school years, and he could also have claimed self-defense.

And when Sirius Black is nearly demented and helpless on the ground, Snape doesn't take revenge on him, but puts him on a stretcher (instead of making him into a human balloon, which he just suffered himself while unconscious). I think that's one reason JKR showed us that scene as part of the time turner sequence.

Snape wanted revenge, there's no doubt, and he admitted that right up front in the Shack, but he was going to let it be through legal channels and the decisions of Cornelius Fudge, instead of killing or maiming him himself. Harry/Hermione/Buckbeak actually saved Snape from his own thirst for revenge, but the book does a good job of showing that Snape was just being human in his righteous anger towards Black. Harry himself also swore to kill Sirius, and tried to strangle him with his bare hands before doing a 180 degree turn in his opinion. The books allow for that kind of change, and even though Snape never liked Sirius and could have turned him in to the authorities again for revenge, he didn't. In fact, he shook hands with him in GoF and only did verbal sparring with him after that, which while irritating to Black was not life-threatening.

Originally Posted by Arithmancer

I think I may not be getting my idea across fully. When I say that Snape as an adult avoided Dark Curses because he recognized he was not the best judge of when they might be necessary, I am not trying to say he was "still bad", whereas other characters were "good" and did not need to worry about such things, unlike Snape. I believe Rowling's point is that no human can be so "good" they never fall into this trap.

Great point! I think Ginny's "bat bogey hex" is a good example of a spell that is dark by nature, and which she uses in a few situations unnecessarily - it seems excessive when she uses it on Zacharias Smith just because he is asking her questions. One would hope that she stopped using that spell as an adult once the war was over.

Overall, I think the author does a good job of showing that none of the characters is above a little jinxing, hexing, and cursing at times.

Originally Posted by Arithmancer

So that Snape (or anyone) who comes to recognize this about themselves, has gained in important insight that will enable him (or her) to choose better actions. In reading through the entire discussion, it has occured to me that this idea I am trying to describe is related to the Christian notions of humility (erm, at least as I am familiar with it through my Catholic background) and the notion that all humans are sinners and need to recognize it.

[mexicant]

Guys, can we keep the cheerleader pots to a minimum? That would be posts like the following fictitious one:

Fake cheerleader post Originally Posted by someone I agree with Blah blah blah blah blah blah super long quote blah blah blah blah. You're so awesome for saying that! And you're so extremely right!

Or, you know, avoid quoting posts just to or them to death.

It's great to agree with a post, but smilies and a one-liner don't tend to add much to discussion.


Back to our regular program of all Snape, all the time... ^_^

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I agree with most of this, but what about when he blasts off George's ear? I know he wasn't aiming for George and I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not criticising him - I think he was doing a good job, but surely he wasn't using a defensive spell there? (Don't have the book to hand, so I may have made a massive blooper here)

I think Snape didn't have a lot of time to think about the concequences, and grabbed the first spell that came to mind-- one that he had invented and was well versed in using. I think he wanted to save Lupin, but it was a split second decision to use Sectumsempra. I think Stunning might have worked better (Stun seems like the best all-purpose spell to me), but under pressure I think people revert to what they are most used to having done in similar situations in the past.

[The_Green_Woods]

I think a stunning spell at that height could be worse (and more offensive?) than a sectumsempra. A stunning spell would almost certainly kill that person, because once he is stunned I think he would fall off his broom from a great height to his death in a horrible manner, while a sectumsempra may not kill (as it happened with George). In that particular battle I mean. I wonder if Snape was aware of that when he cast his spells.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think a stunning spell at that height would be worse (and more offensive?) than a sectumsempra. A stunning spell would almost certainly kill that person, because once he is stunned I think he would fall off his broom from a great height to his death in a horrible manner, while a sectumsempra may not kill (as it happened with George). In that particular battle I mean. I wonder if Snape was aware of that when he cast his spells.

I think the shock of having a body part unexpectantly cut off would be bad enough. Lupin had to dive for George to save him after George's ear got cut off, plus there is the whole bleeding profusely thing to deal with. I know Pettigrew dealt with it well when he cut off his own hand, but he had steeled himself and knew it was coming, and he wasn't flying up in the air. I don't know how a Death Eater who suddenly found himself handless and spewing blood while in a high speed aerial battle would have faired without help.

I think there was at least one instance of a Death Eater veering off to save his Stunned buddy during the battle, so in either case (a Stun or a Sectumspra), I think either rescue or death were possibilities.

[ReelBigFish]

Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?

I think Snapes soul was not intact before he killed Dumbledore given that he was partially responsible for the death of at least two innocent people - James and Lily. I do not think what Snape did was murder more like euthanasia

To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

Don't have enough information to judge what his parents were truly like so cannot answer this question. I would say that his choices are his responsibility not his parents. Snape made some bad choices as an adult that were all his own responsibility.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Probably not given how he was obsessed with her. I don't believe Snape would have turned to the good side if Lily had lived he would have continued being a death eater.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

Actually this made him appear worse in my eyes and I have always didliked the way he treated Sirius. Snape was selfish for the most part and his "murder" of Dumbledore was unselfish but the only time he was unselfish. I think given that he loved Lily that his actions from the prophecy reveal onward were all selfish and he did not care about anyone but himself and possibly Dumbledore.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

I think DH made my view on Snape worse in that he was shown to be so bigoted towards children because of their parentage and he was always so bullying to Harry and Neville in an extremely disgraceful way. Snape was a bully and a terrible teacher. I think routinely humiliating someone the way Snape did to Harry and Neville is just wrong on so many levels. The fact he was bullied himself makes his own bullying appear worse to me.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

No but he should have given the revolting way he treated Harry. It showed that Harry was the better person because he was able to forgive Snape despite Snapes cruelty and bullying.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

I don't think he had any particular strengths to be honest. He had may flaws -bigotry, bullying, cruelty, he was obsessive and nasty. He also lived in the past and chose to punish young children because he did not like their family or background. The way he treated Hermione was disgraceful and showed his bias and cruelty.

[SadiraSnape]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think Snape didn't have a lot of time to think about the concequences, and grabbed the first spell that came to mind--

Believe it or not, I'm going to agree with you!

When you look at the spells others used -- especially Harry, Expelliarmus-ing all over the place -- I think in a very stress-filled situation a person would use whatever automatically (automagically?) came to mind.

As for what would be least harmful, when you're hundreds of feet in the air (maybe a thousand or more, I remember Tonks complaining about freezing), I think pretty much any hex, jinx, curse, spell or charm is going to be fatal if it results in someone falling off their broom...

I also believe everyone understood that, and just used whatever was most natural and came first to their lips.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think Snape didn't have a lot of time to think about the concequences, and grabbed the first spell that came to mind-- one that he had invented and was well versed in using. I think he wanted to save Lupin, but it was a split second decision to use Sectumsempra. I think Stunning might have worked better (Stun seems like the best all-purpose spell to me), but under pressure I think people revert to what they are most used to having done in similar situations in the past.

I think it was a split-second decision to use the spell that would seem most like a spell a Death Eater would use. He was trying to protect Lupin, hit the Death Eater, use a spell that he knew how to control, make the attempt to hit the Death Eater look like an accident, and try to pretend to be a Death Eater all at the same time. I'm not sure that a Stunning Spell would have fit the bill.

[arithmancer]

I don't think Snape's action in the Seven Potters was entirely unpremeditated. Obviously, he could not know in advance exactly how events would play out, that he would be close enough to Lupin to see a threat to his life, and close enough to the attacker, at the right angle to have a shot at his wand hand, etc. But we know he did know in advance that he might be fighting in a battle against Order members, on the side of the Death Eaters, and under Dumbledore's orders to make it look good for Voldemort. It seems to me Snape would have given some thought to how best to reconcile the conflicting priorities the situation created.

[MinervasCat]

Part of being a good warrior is knowing what tactics to use, when to use them, and to be adaptable when your circumstances change.

I feel that Severus had an arsenal of spells he could use and that he adapted and used the ones necessary, and the force necessary, to handle the situations he found himself in. This would also be applicable to "The Seven Potters." He drew from this and used the spells best suited for the situation. I think, even while it was chaotic during that battle, he had enough experience to be able to select a proper spell and cast it. He seemed to select Sectumsempra at that time because it would be the most effective -- stopping the DE from attacking Lupin and George -- but, do the least harm no matter who it connected with.

It seemed that Sectumsempra, done properly, could be very controlled, and, had Severus connected with the DE, it would probably only have cut him and caused him to drop his wand. If he connected with anyone else, it would cause a cut, but not be fatal, as we see with George's ear.

I see this as another example of what arithmancer has been talking about in using the least force necessary to get a job done properly. Severus had to use a seemingly "offensive" spell to keep up his cover, so, he used one he could control and cause the least harm with at that moment.

Even in the heat of battle, one can't just start throwing curses helter-skelter, not caring who they hit. That's what happened in the Battle for the Astronmy tower, and one of the DEs AK'd one of his own people just indiscriminately firing off AKs.

[TreacleTartlet]

Re-Seven Potters:
Dumbledore had given Severus instructions to play the part of loyal DE convincingly. So I think that Severus went into the chase prepared to use spells which would be expected to be used by a DE.