Wasn't Molly kind of rude & angry?

[nightingale]

I think aside from being overprotective, Molly, like Dumbledore (who admitted he'd forgotten lately), seems to not remember what it's like to be young.

[cleansweep11]

Yes Molly was very rude to Sirius. And I understand that she is overprotective of Harry,but that doesn't give her the right to be so rude.

On thing that really bugged be is when Sirius answered Fred(or George)'s question about why they couldn't ask anything,with that was their parents decsio,but Harry on the other hand- and then molly said that "that wasn't up to Sirius...." but it is!! Sirius is Harry's legal guardian!! HE HAS THE RIGHT!!IT IS UP TO SIRIUS!! that always bugged me........

[rons-lover]

Yeah, true it should've been up to Sirius to tell Harry stuff and not Molly, but she did, and well that's that. And well, there are just people who like to protect people. Though Molly I don't think would lie, she does smother. And yes, she needs to lighten up, but so do a million other people that probably never will. (Myself included).

Though you're right, I think Molly, like Dumbledore, may well have forgotten what it is to be a child, and well it seems that way.

Unfortenately you can't treat 15yrs like 5yrs, but they still need to be taken to be taken care of, I mean 15yrs need to be taken care of somewhat, but more they need a guiding hand and some reminders of morals and stuff. I mean Fred and George are appearently capable of taking care of themselves, even if they are a little reckless... On top of that, I think Molly is a woman who's seen so many losses in other people's lives she's afraid she'll lose her own.

But I don't think she'll change, not unless she saw that her smothering had some bad consequences. And it may. But she's not a bad mother in any means, she just needs to lighten up.

As Inkwolf said a ways back, Sirius was acting irresponsibly, not only to himself, but to others as well.... Why? BECAUSE he was wanted, and had they given him a truth potion he would have ended up giving away a lot of things. Things that might get others in prison who don't deserve. And Harry's safety as well. I mean Harry was his Godchild he's supposed to be his father figure, but the only example he set for him was a reckless one. He really didn't much think of anyon, but himself.

I do love Sirius , but this is what I see now that I've looked back on it.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

Molly's words sounded hurting but you could tell that she respected Sirius for taking care of Harry and all but she wants is for Harry to be safe. Plus all the stress of the Order must make her get easily angered.

[danfan89]

Molly was just being defensive because she really loves Harry, and she knew that Sirius, being cooped up, would rise to rash decisions that might not only inflict upon his safety, but Harry's as well. She was acting like a mother, and after seeing the Boggart she was extra worried about the lives of the children she loves and knows so well.

[rons-lover]

Exactly Danfan89!!!!!!

[whizbang121]

Molly certainly had good reasons to be nearly hysterical. And worrying about her family and knowing how others had suffered losses doesn't help. For all we know, she suffered losses herself that we don't know about.
But how is keeping young adults in the dark going to protect them? Again, they don't have to know every detail, but it's important to respect them. Otherwise, as we've seen, they become devious and misinterpret the bits and pieces they pick up on the sly. This IS dangerous.

I think when Molly told Sirius that it wasn't his call to decide what Harry should know, she was refering to the fact that Dumbledore didn't want him to know anything. This is a slightly different situation. They suspected that Voldemort was active in Harry's mind, but they weren't sure how much Voldemort could influence Harry or if he could get information from him. This was a serious issue.

But I think that Sirius was right to try and tell Harry as much as he could be allowed to know. He may have gone too far. Maybe he didn't go far enough in some directions. I think Harry should have at least known why they couldn't tell him stuff, instead of being left to feel like an outsider or a bomb that might go off any minute.

All in all, I think Sirius was better at reading Harry's psychological state and helping him cope with it.

[Arissya_00]

Originally Posted by rons-lover

As Inkwolf said a ways back, Sirius was acting irresponsibly, not only to himself, but to others as well.... Why? BECAUSE he was wanted, and had they given him a truth potion he would have ended up giving away a lot of things. Things that might get others in prison who don't deserve. And Harry's safety as well. I mean Harry was his Godchild he's supposed to be his father figure, but the only example he set for him was a reckless one. He really didn't much think of anyon, but himself.

That is NOT true. How can you say that Sirius only thought of himself? Ok, so caring for Harry is being selfish, huh? Trying to make Harry happy is selfish, huh? I think you don't understand the story. Just because Sirius cared for Harry so that he might have put others in danger does not mean he is selfish. Do you even know why he was being that way? Because he wanted to do something useful for the order. He wanted to help . So thats thinking of himself, isn't it? He was Harry's Godfather. So, what you're saying is caring for others is a bad example? I admit, Sirius set a bad example. But to say the only example he set was a reckless one is a complete insult to his memory. He also set a good one. To care for others and to stand for what you believe in. Do you seriously think locking someone up will make them feel better? Sirius isn't perfect, and by the way you guys are making it he is a complete loser.

Yeah, you say people need to lighten up, but they never get to. That is totally their problem. They do need to lighten up, but they never get themselves to. Its not other people's faults.

I repeat this one more time. Yes, Sirius paid the price for his actions. AND IT WAS WORTH IT.

[Draco Serpensortia]

I agree, these are the parts that really made me mad:

(pg. 88)
"It's not down to you to decide what's good for Harry!" said Mrs. Weasley sharply.

Actually, it is, seeing as to how Sirius is Harry's godfather, and, both legally and technically, his proper guardian.

(pg. 89)
"He's not an adult either!" said Mrs. Weasley, the color rising in her cheeks. "He's not James, Sirius!"
"I'm perfectly clear who he is, thanks, Molly," said Sirius coldly.
"I'm not sure you are!" said Mrs. Weasley. "Sometimes, the way you talk about him, it's as though you think you've got your best friend back!"

Leave it to Mrs. Weasley to rub it in.

"Meaning I'm an irresponsible godfather?" demanded Sirius, his voice rising.
"Meaning you've been known to act rashly, Sirius, which is why Dumbledore keeps reminding you to stay at home and -"

When has Sirius ever acted rashly? I've seen no proof of that.

"He's not your son," said Sirius quietly.
"He's as good as," said Mrs. Weasley fiercely. "Who else has he got?"
"He's got me!"
"Yes," said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling. "The thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?"

And she says Sirius has been known to act rashly.

[whizbang121]

Yeah, she was brutal and it was completely uncalled for. Some people are not adults and some people don't quite act like adults. Harry isn't the only one who needs to learn how to control his feelings.

I'm beginning to wonder if Molly's barely under control emotions don't make her a weak link the OotP chain. Remember when Lupin, (or was it Moody) says something like, you weren't in the order last time. Now we're better prepared. It was in the boggart scene. (Eyes Molly suspiciously.) Great target for the Imperious.

[nightingale]

^^ Good point. She does need to get her emotions a bit more in control (I can't believe she thought Sirius was rash, with all the controlled things she spat out at him), but it's got to be hard for her, with basically all her family in danger, and with one son not speaking to them all, but she's got to do, if she's going to know vauable information about the Order. I wonder, is the fact the she wasn't at all able to do a simple spell like Riddikulus (she said herself that it was silly of her not to be able to do it) is foreshadowing to anything...maybe she was just under so much stress that she wasn't able to concentrate properly...but there's got to be loads of stress when you're actually dueling...

[silver ink pot]

I know I have written a few posts that are pro-Molly, and sort of anti-Sirius, but only because of what is written in the book.

But I realize many of you are making great points here about how Molly's state of mind is no more healthy than Sirius'.

I have been thinking tonight about J. K. Rowling's attitude toward the coming battle with Voldemort, and I think many of you have a point about Molly acting too weak to deal with the coming threat.

In some ways she is a parallel to Cho Chang, who can't deal with Cedric's death and cries all the time. And there is Marietta, who is a traitor to the DA and a bit of a crybaby. Contrast them with Hermione, who, even in the face of danger, cries only fake tears in front of Umbridge and helps them all escape.

I have been reading a book about the Spartans, the Greek warriors who believed in "things worth dying for" as Sirius said. Snape says during the Occulumency lessons that people who wear their hearts on their sleeves are no match for the Dark Lord. Molly, Marietta, and Cho Chang definitely show their emotions in a bad sort of way, according to the Spartan view. I was just reading that the Spartans believed that even if a woman lost a husband or a son in a battle, that they weren't to cry about the dead. On the contrary, they were to feel proud and act the opposite of how they feel. The Spartans were taught to treat defeat as victory as long as they stayed true to their principles. I feel there is alot going on with this in the books.

[Lupina]

In defence of Molly - and Sirius!

Molly's 'rudeness' and 'nastyness' were totally understandable considering the situation she was in - her main emotion throughout wasn't anger and waspishness directed at not just Sirius, but all of them in various ways, but an all-pervading fear.
This fear was so real - showing itself in the way she reacted to the boggart - that she tried the only ways she could to 'control' everyone in an attemp to keep them safe. She was the opposite of Sirius - so fearful, whereas Sirius was fearless, and although Sirius was only fearless regarding his own safety, I think Molly felt - with reason - that Sirius could jeopardise the safety of the others, especially Harry, by his total lack of fear.
One big thanks to JK for creating such believeable and fascinating characters!

[seerius]

Hmm, i haven't been around these forums for a while, but they're still as interesting as ever

Anyway --
Firstly, to say, nice post, Draco Serpensortia

Also -

Molly's 'rudeness' and 'nastyness' were totally understandable considering the situation she was in - her main emotion throughout wasn't anger and waspishness directed at not just Sirius, but all of them in various ways, but an all-pervading fear.... I think Molly felt - with reason - that Sirius could jeopardise the safety of the others, especially Harry, by his total lack of fear.

Firstly, I agree that Molly's reaction is "understandable" - after all, i think around here we all agree that she's a realistic character. But the fact that we can begin to understand why she said what she did does *not* make it right.

We all know that she's taken a liking to Harry, and has wanted to act as a sort of mother to him. But in the situations that Draco...blah pointed out, Molly's very much concerned about Harry's well being - but doesn't seem to show Sirius much consideration at all.

Also, Molly has no reason to believe that Sirius would jeopardise the safety of others. (Gimme a shred of proof). And even that is beside the point - let's say he was acting rashly: that would call for logical reasoning - not for her digging up the past and rubbing in memories that hurt most. That's just emotional blackmail.

[Puffskein]

Molly's concerns were valid, but the war seems to be bringing out the worst in her. I think Molly went a bit far when she mentioned Azkaban. You can't criticise people for things they can't help, especially if you're rubbing in a gross injustice.

I think some people are being a bit harsh on Sirius. He hadn't known true freedom for fourteen years - it's no wonder he wanted to get out of there, especially with evil on the loose and with Snape and Molly rubbing it in, and his emotional development might have been affected too. He could have been less reckless, but the whole situation wouldn't have happened without Wormtail and Crouch. If JKR wanted us to remember him as a selfish daredevil, he'd have died trying to fly his motorbike to Venus or something.

[whizbang121]

Under the circumstances, I think Sirius had good instincts and presence of mind about Harry. He only seems to lose it when Snape is around.

[nightingale]

Somehow I think he was more on target than Molly about how much information to give Harry. Think about it, if they had told him most things concerning him, he wouldn't have been so down about Dumbledore, practised Occlumency...

[whizbang121]

And maybe Sirius might have lived. That was "part of the Dumbledore is an old man who forgot how it feels to be a kid" thing.

[whizbang121]

But I still think Molly is a weak link in the chain. And she has a mean streak when things don't go her way. Is it her family that's on the Black tapestry? Was she a slytherin or from a dark arts family?

[jordmundt6]

Oh CRIMINY!! NO!! Everyone's related to everyone else here. Both Weasleys have ties to Sirius. Arthur by blood, Molly by marriage (if memory serves). Both Molly and Arthur were in Gryffindor. Molly might be a weak link like Ron is a weak link, or she might be one of the strongest assets Harry has, a mother figure with an unconditional love rather like his own. Of course she has a mean streak when her children are threatened (the whole "tigress" thing) and most of the things she's angry about are legit. As for the information. Her course turned out to be the best. Sirius' death was a necessary one and if Harry had been faithfully practicing Occlumency (probably from day one if Dumbledore found out he'd been told everything) four equally grim possibilities could easily become reality.

1. Because he's been a courageous fighter, Harry manages to start fully blocking Voldemort from his head before the holidays. He doesn't see Arthur Weasley attacked. Voldemort is stopped, for the moment, but Arthur dies of his injuries.

2. Harry is unsuccessful at blocking Voldemort and Voldemort gathers the information he needs from Harry's head without having to get the prophecy at all (probably the scenario that Dumbledore was most afraid of).

3. Harry saves Arthur, cottons on to the plan and warns Sirius not only that it looks like DEs are massing at the DoM and Voldemort is on the verge of grabbing the prophecy, but that Kreacher is a traitor (in the woods he thinks to use his mirror). Harry and his crew don't show up to face off against the DEs, but the squad from the order is overmatched and at least one of them dies (probably Sirius facing Bella).

What looks like our "best case"--similar to what actually happens except that Harry knows what's going on and manages to prevent Sirius' death. He chases after Bella as she's escaping and is confronted by Voldemort. The prophecy is destroyed but Harry is unable to cope with the hatred Voldemort unleashes during a possession. Dumbledore refuses to act and Voldemort uses Harry's body to murder Dumbledore. Voldemort then releases Harry, retrieves Bella and disapparates, laughing. The Ministry Aurors and Fudge arrive then. Harry is arrested for the murder of Dumbledore and the DEs and Members of the Order (including Sirius whose name is not cleared) are ALL thrown into Azkaban.